Can anyone comment on how PostgreSQL’s search features compare to something like Apache Lucene? It seems like Postgres has a decent subset of the basic features required but I wonder how much more you gain by using a proper search engine library instead.
I would like to register that I find this comment largely derailing any conversation about the actual content. Objection noted, but I would appreciate keeping these discussions limited to culture posts or elsewhere . The submitter is not the author, the author did not coin this phrase, but that’s neither here nor there.
I know I’m not the arbiter of appropriate discussion, and do not speak for everybody. We all would write things differently based on our experiences, but I think it’s important to try to be charitable when reading the works of others.
Objection noted, but I would appreciate keeping these discussions limited to culture posts or elsewhere .
This is as paternalistic as angersocks post. It’s basically “criticise our industries mode of speaking, as long as you make it over there in the corner”.
We all would write things differently based on our experiences, but I think it’s important to try to be charitable when reading the works of others.
I also think we should be charitable about things that impact other peoples lives. For all the reasons I’ve given above an below, this article would not be acceptable in many place where I hang around - even worse: because of an easily fixable, and improvable error, be it a mistake or not.
Count the comments in this post about Postgres and the article here. If my “paternalistic” response bothers you, I think you are missing the point entirely. If you are looking for the type of community where a single word in the title of the post is debated, well, that is what you are fostering. It’s not my jam. I am not looking for opportunities to be outraged, I am looking for good technical articles and discussion.
It rubs you the wrong way. I understand. Write a culture post about that - it could be a thought provoking piece. I am not telling you to go off into some corner any more than posts about databases are some corner. If I start a rant about Postgres in an ableism thread it’s going to seem out of place too.
By the way, is it bad to be paternalistic in trying to guide community behavior? I can tell you don’t want to be guided, but as a parent and a member of this community I don’t appreciate your use of that label as a negative thing. It’s just as valid to apply that to you, who are trying to change the community in the way you wish it to become.
I didn’t expect to get into this meta discussion on an article about database search, and while I’ve participated in it, it is really bringing me down.
this article would not be acceptable in many place where I hang around
Then those places care less about technical merits than about including people. That is fine, but you seem rather distressed that that view is not universal.
technical merit should not be worshipped.
one can speak or write something with strong technical merit and still be inclusive. they are not mutually exclusive nor must they be ranked.
they are not mutually exclusive nor must they be ranked.
I agree, and that’s why it pains me to see people saying “<x> article/person should be complained about/reworded/shunned because of <non-technical reason>”.
Yes - and thank you, skade, for speaking up. That’s a better link than the one I had handy.
It’s one of those words which it’s honestly really emotionally draining to point out to people, because it is used so heavily as part of the culture, and hardly anybody even thinks about it as “a thing”. I’ve heard people say things like “How else would you say it?” and “Well, sorry, emotions come out and I don’t watch my words. It happens.”
I think it’s really useful, in coming to terms with the fact that everyday ableist language does harm despite being so common, to remember that most slurs, at one time, were simply the way people talked and the obvious factual word for that group - at least to the people using them from a position of privilege. If anything, that made them more damaging, not less.
(As you can see, I’m not wearing my op hat with this comment. Just to make that explicit.)
I disagree with the comparison of “idiot” to other slurs. The difference is that it is universally recognized that, all else equal, being intelligent is better than being unintelligent. The “superiority” of white over black, of male over female, of straight over gay, is socially constructed. That just isn’t the case for smart vs dumb.
The difference is that it is universally recognized that, all else equal, being intelligent is better than being unintelligent.
It’s different, but depending on the situation hardly “universally recognized”. Somebody who overthinks their problems can be at a huge disadvantage to somebody that doesn’t.
That just isn’t the case for smart vs dumb.
I want to support your point, but here in particular you’re overreaching. Society gets to define what counts as smart and dumb, and so yes it too is a construction.
Even aside from the points that @angersock made, have you really never been around people that speak condescendingly about intelligent people? I certainly have. Intelligence is not universally revered and there’s no technicality in that.
1) Most anger I see directed at “intelligent people” is more accurately described as anger towards “elites.” Our society doesn’t adequately provide for all people and thus those in the lower class are right to be angry at those in the upper class. This anger manifests as rejection of cultural and political norms of the elite and has at times an anti-intellectual streak. But the tastes of the intelligentsia =/= intelligence itself
2) If you performed a survey w/ questions like “would you like to learn things more slowly” and “would you prefer it if you forgot things more often”, what do you think the response would be? What about the opposite? Can you imagine any country, in any time period, where the results would be different?
Beyond that: The guide is intended for people without much knowledge though. Failing to address the audience properly in the title is a critical miss. (Imagine getting such a guide sent to you via email by a colleague who knows much more about Postgres than you and doesn’t really like you very much.)
The easiest example at hand has been around for a quarter century. I suspect that if you went back another century you could probably find a manuscript with similar title.
Your complaint is, I fear, exactly what a lot of people who complain about the overreach of PC are talking about. Also, Godwin much?
EDIT: Also, we should tag this with practices, since it talks about how to do something.
Disabled people are, in fact, precisely the target of the healthcare changes which are now in the pipeline. Much like “last time”, we make an easy target because hardly anybody is willing to speak up on our behalf. Fascists seeking to do large-scale bad things need to first get the public used to large-scale attacks on people, and having a group that nobody will defend speeds that up significantly.
I don’t know skade’s intent specifically, but I think it’s a valid comparison, though it’s also important to remember that we can’t assume we know the exact nature of the badness that’s coming. As I’ve joked privately a few times, Godwin’s law has reached its limit recently.
First of all: I criticise a specific word, you come up with an example of another word.
Your complaint is, I fear, exactly what a lot of people who complain about the overreach of PC are talking about.
Sure. Because you would complain on an racist and sexist term, but it’s fine as long as disability is the issue.
That’s what “PC” complaints are about: being paternalistic about what people find unacceptable or not.
Also, Godwin much?
I’m german, I draw from my history as much as I want. Don’t berate me on that.
I’m also not running around and asking people from the US not to talk about McCarthy too much.
That horror cost millions of lives, I’ll use it as an example until I die. And it’s a well documented fact that Nazis were apt at working with language and boundaries, so the example fits.
The titles and approach of the series both echo How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive, A Guide for the Compleat Idiot, a notable 1969 guide by John Muir that used humor to make car repair less intimidating, and was popular in the American heyday of the Volkswagen.
So, it’s been done for almost a half-century.
[…] you would complain on an racist and sexist term, but it’s fine as long as disability is the issue.
Not really–others might, but I can appreciate a turn of phrase or custom without ascribing motive and intent to the person using it. To wit, satirical books like Real Men Don’t Eat Quiche.
That horror cost millions of lives, I’ll use it as an example until I die. And it’s a well documented fact that Nazis were apt at working with language and boundaries, so the example fits.
The problem with it as an example is that once the specter of “but but but Nazis!” is brought up, people get really irrational really quickly. One of the common problems when trying to argue with folks who identify as part of some persecuted minority (real or imaginary, valid or not) is that there really is no way to get past “but I am in fear for my life, you monster!”, which is almost always adjacent to claims. We can’t tell somebody “no you don’t feel that way” because how’re we to know, but at the same time it’s a shitty thing to do if you want any response other than unconditional reassurance.
So, to bring that back around, if somebody wants to bring up Nazis they are almost always (in my experience) doing so with the implication that they’re worried about ending up in camps–and if that’s the case, why should we waste their valuable escape time by arguing with them on the internet about whether or not that’s going to happen?
Can anyone comment on how PostgreSQL’s search features compare to something like Apache Lucene? It seems like Postgres has a decent subset of the basic features required but I wonder how much more you gain by using a proper search engine library instead.
I made a small comment about it here: https://lobste.rs/s/rouofq/is_postgresql_good_enough/comments/rmakdu#c_rmakdu
AFAIK, that’s the key fundamental difference.
Thanks for that good writeup and linking to it here.
Gosh, whatever happened to naming a good primer just “primer” instead of using ableist insults?
Reminder that “idiotism” was one of the labels that would get you murdered in the Third Reich.
I would like to register that I find this comment largely derailing any conversation about the actual content. Objection noted, but I would appreciate keeping these discussions limited to culture posts or elsewhere . The submitter is not the author, the author did not coin this phrase, but that’s neither here nor there.
I know I’m not the arbiter of appropriate discussion, and do not speak for everybody. We all would write things differently based on our experiences, but I think it’s important to try to be charitable when reading the works of others.
This is as paternalistic as angersocks post. It’s basically “criticise our industries mode of speaking, as long as you make it over there in the corner”.
I also think we should be charitable about things that impact other peoples lives. For all the reasons I’ve given above an below, this article would not be acceptable in many place where I hang around - even worse: because of an easily fixable, and improvable error, be it a mistake or not.
Count the comments in this post about Postgres and the article here. If my “paternalistic” response bothers you, I think you are missing the point entirely. If you are looking for the type of community where a single word in the title of the post is debated, well, that is what you are fostering. It’s not my jam. I am not looking for opportunities to be outraged, I am looking for good technical articles and discussion.
It rubs you the wrong way. I understand. Write a culture post about that - it could be a thought provoking piece. I am not telling you to go off into some corner any more than posts about databases are some corner. If I start a rant about Postgres in an ableism thread it’s going to seem out of place too.
By the way, is it bad to be paternalistic in trying to guide community behavior? I can tell you don’t want to be guided, but as a parent and a member of this community I don’t appreciate your use of that label as a negative thing. It’s just as valid to apply that to you, who are trying to change the community in the way you wish it to become.
I didn’t expect to get into this meta discussion on an article about database search, and while I’ve participated in it, it is really bringing me down.
Then those places care less about technical merits than about including people. That is fine, but you seem rather distressed that that view is not universal.
technical merit should not be worshipped. one can speak or write something with strong technical merit and still be inclusive. they are not mutually exclusive nor must they be ranked.
I agree, and that’s why it pains me to see people saying “<x> article/person should be complained about/reworded/shunned because of <non-technical reason>”.
Is this ableism? Being an idiot isn’t the same as having a disability.
Yes - and thank you, skade, for speaking up. That’s a better link than the one I had handy.
It’s one of those words which it’s honestly really emotionally draining to point out to people, because it is used so heavily as part of the culture, and hardly anybody even thinks about it as “a thing”. I’ve heard people say things like “How else would you say it?” and “Well, sorry, emotions come out and I don’t watch my words. It happens.”
I think it’s really useful, in coming to terms with the fact that everyday ableist language does harm despite being so common, to remember that most slurs, at one time, were simply the way people talked and the obvious factual word for that group - at least to the people using them from a position of privilege. If anything, that made them more damaging, not less.
(As you can see, I’m not wearing my op hat with this comment. Just to make that explicit.)
I disagree with the comparison of “idiot” to other slurs. The difference is that it is universally recognized that, all else equal, being intelligent is better than being unintelligent. The “superiority” of white over black, of male over female, of straight over gay, is socially constructed. That just isn’t the case for smart vs dumb.
It’s different, but depending on the situation hardly “universally recognized”. Somebody who overthinks their problems can be at a huge disadvantage to somebody that doesn’t.
I want to support your point, but here in particular you’re overreaching. Society gets to define what counts as smart and dumb, and so yes it too is a construction.
“all else equal”
So you think that all humans have the same aptitude? That it’s all nurture and no nature? I feel like you’re trying to catch me on a technicality here
Even aside from the points that @angersock made, have you really never been around people that speak condescendingly about intelligent people? I certainly have. Intelligence is not universally revered and there’s no technicality in that.
1) Most anger I see directed at “intelligent people” is more accurately described as anger towards “elites.” Our society doesn’t adequately provide for all people and thus those in the lower class are right to be angry at those in the upper class. This anger manifests as rejection of cultural and political norms of the elite and has at times an anti-intellectual streak. But the tastes of the intelligentsia =/= intelligence itself
2) If you performed a survey w/ questions like “would you like to learn things more slowly” and “would you prefer it if you forgot things more often”, what do you think the response would be? What about the opposite? Can you imagine any country, in any time period, where the results would be different?
Yes, it equates lack of knowledge with lack of intelligence, possibly through some kind of disability.
Some people write more words about that then I do. http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/11/ableist-word-profile-idiot/
Beyond that: The guide is intended for people without much knowledge though. Failing to address the audience properly in the title is a critical miss. (Imagine getting such a guide sent to you via email by a colleague who knows much more about Postgres than you and doesn’t really like you very much.)
If it were the case, a lot of our fellow developers would be drawing hefty pensions…
Non-troll question: is there any similar term that could be substituted for “idiot” there that would not be considered offensive?
“Beginner”, “newbie”…
The easiest example at hand has been around for a quarter century. I suspect that if you went back another century you could probably find a manuscript with similar title.
Your complaint is, I fear, exactly what a lot of people who complain about the overreach of PC are talking about. Also, Godwin much?
EDIT: Also, we should tag this with
practices, since it talks about how to do something.Disabled people are, in fact, precisely the target of the healthcare changes which are now in the pipeline. Much like “last time”, we make an easy target because hardly anybody is willing to speak up on our behalf. Fascists seeking to do large-scale bad things need to first get the public used to large-scale attacks on people, and having a group that nobody will defend speeds that up significantly.
I don’t know skade’s intent specifically, but I think it’s a valid comparison, though it’s also important to remember that we can’t assume we know the exact nature of the badness that’s coming. As I’ve joked privately a few times, Godwin’s law has reached its limit recently.
First of all: I criticise a specific word, you come up with an example of another word.
Sure. Because you would complain on an racist and sexist term, but it’s fine as long as disability is the issue.
That’s what “PC” complaints are about: being paternalistic about what people find unacceptable or not.
I’m german, I draw from my history as much as I want. Don’t berate me on that.
I’m also not running around and asking people from the US not to talk about McCarthy too much.
That horror cost millions of lives, I’ll use it as an example until I die. And it’s a well documented fact that Nazis were apt at working with language and boundaries, so the example fits.
I hope that wasn’t too PC.
Fine.
So, it’s been done for almost a half-century.
Not really–others might, but I can appreciate a turn of phrase or custom without ascribing motive and intent to the person using it. To wit, satirical books like Real Men Don’t Eat Quiche.
The problem with it as an example is that once the specter of “but but but Nazis!” is brought up, people get really irrational really quickly. One of the common problems when trying to argue with folks who identify as part of some persecuted minority (real or imaginary, valid or not) is that there really is no way to get past “but I am in fear for my life, you monster!”, which is almost always adjacent to claims. We can’t tell somebody “no you don’t feel that way” because how’re we to know, but at the same time it’s a shitty thing to do if you want any response other than unconditional reassurance.
So, to bring that back around, if somebody wants to bring up Nazis they are almost always (in my experience) doing so with the implication that they’re worried about ending up in camps–and if that’s the case, why should we waste their valuable escape time by arguing with them on the internet about whether or not that’s going to happen?