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9front priorities:

  1. have fun,
  2. fix things that haven’t yet been fixed,
  3. trigger ragnarok
    1. 3

      I have absolutely no idea what this is about.

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        A tech reporter caught wind of 9front and asked to interview the developers for an article. The interview eventually took place on IRC. The reporter wrote an article that misquoted and misrepresented what the developers said on IRC. He later apologized. Related materials were archived in the linked directory to provide context for the resulting confusion.

        This all took place in 2011.

        I don’t know why Shamar linked to the IRC log.

        1. 1

          Hi sl, I was looking for early documents about the announcement of the 9front fork.

          I did such search to provide an example of the playful mood that you had back then, and the log seemed exactly interesting and entertaining as #cat-v usually is. Given it was on 9front.org I assumed it was a public document. And actually the content was pretty coherent with the usual ironic propaganda of 9front.

          I found the log on Google (I cannot recall the exact search query) and I even looked at the parent directory but since it was empty, I didn’t learn about all the mess that happened in 2011.

          To me it seemed just an interesting and funny text about 9front origins, and I didn’t knew people on cat-v didn’t wanted it to be linked from here (given the log was public).

          My apologies.

          1. 2

            Thanks for the explanation. It was indeed posted as a public document; as I said above, the purpose was to provide context (evidence?) that the article was misleading at best. The parent directory appearing to be empty was a SNAFU I committed a few years ago when the site moved from static HTML to werc. I’ve fixed the directory listing and added a small explanation.

            Everyone involved agreed to post the IRC log at the time it was originally uploaded, but presently nobody in #cat-v wants logs posted on the Internet so I have disabled access to those files.

      2. 2

        I have to ask:

        Which of the three 9front priorities quoted above are the most objectionable to partisans in this thread?

        1. 0

          Well… I think you should trigger ragnarok first! :-D

        2. 0

          God these people are unbearable. It’s like reading the exchanges of children in a playground.

          1. 1

            You should be very proud of your children, if they are so much smarter than you! ;-)

            1. -7

              Grow up.

              1. 4

                Some of those people were teenagers at the time.

                1. -4

                  Tell us the stories about how you sieg heil’d around school, I mean, as a joke you know? People get so offended nowadays when you ironically quote goebbels it’s hilarious. Freaking political correctness!

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                    1. -3

                      It’s a joke, dude

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                        I think there may be a misunderstanding here.

                        I created almost all of the 9front propaganda. I’m not a Nazi, racist, sexist, homophobe, or antisemitic. Most of it is intended to deflate the pomposity of authority, particularly with regards to the software industry. Much of it is self-deprecating (example: http://9front.org/img/9frontsystem03.png). None of it is intended to promote fascist, racist, sexist, or any other form of discriminatory ideology, except where it comes to discriminating between quality and trash software.

                        Anecdote: One time a guy quoted Monty Python in the body of a message critical of 9front’s use of images of politicians, explaining that it’s never okay to make fun of Nazis because someone may think that you’re promoting them. While his advice seems in retrospect to be prophetic, it still confused me because Monty Python made a career of mocking Nazis.

                        I realize nobody cares about facts.

                        1. -3

                          I already understood this. Like, I get the shtick. Completely eschewing honest appearances in lieu of masturbatory trolling as a jab at The Man. It’s adolescent, obnoxious, and serves nothing but your ego. The whole act is pretentious

          2. -2

            From #cat-v’s /topic:

            no {bots,logging,politics,heh,keyboard shortcuts,transphobia}

            Please remove this. We don’t publish logs for a reason.

            1. 7

              It’s weird that someone who dislikes codes of conduct requests that Lobsters enforce its community’s official site violating its own code of conduct (the quoted real one, not the joke one). I’m going to pass.

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                And, hat off, I didn’t read closely enough or research to see if this is seriously or sarcastically anti-semitic, but if it’s the latter I guess this is a pretty good example of how the failure mode of “isn’t it funny that we’re imitating white supremacists so well” is that y’all look like a bunch of white supremacists.

                1. 2

                  Same, nor do I want to read that closely. There’s far too much very serious anti-semitism in the world these days.

                  I would encourage everyone who hasn’t, to read the copy of the Daily Stormer style guide which was obtained by the Huffington Post. It explains exactly what function “it’s just a joke” serves, in the words of people who call themselves Nazis unironically. But have a loved one nearby when you read it, I don’t even have words to describe what a horrifying and unpleasant read it is.

                  This chat log was seven years ago. At that time, it was indeed the case that most people thought of Nazis as a historical phenomenon rather than a contemporary one. Also, I agree that people can change and grow. I am personally willing to take sl at their word when they say “I’m not a Nazi, racist, sexist, homophobe, or antisemitic” (elsewhere in this comment tree), not because I don’t find the chat log vile, but because that declaration is one that people who do subscribe to those ideologies are usually unwilling to make, in my experience.

                  I am hopeful that sl won’t prove me wrong in future.

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                    You could also take heart in the fact that I have never expressed affinity for such ideas, in the seven year old chat log or anywhere else. It’s never completely clear why anyone thinks I, or 9front, do hold an affinity for such ideas. It’s always precisely this kind of completely shallow, drive-by condemnation of things no one ever said or did, usually (as here) accompanied by a declaration that the accuser does not intend to bother to find out if what they are saying is true or not. It’s really that consistent and weird. It leaves me in a position where I have to decide whether or not to engage the accusation (which is almost always diminishing returns), or allow the person to wallow in their misunderstanding. One benefit of allowing people who aren’t thinking clearly to wallow in their misunderstandings is that they will often proceed to leave 9front alone. Really, it’s win/win, for our devs and for our users. But let me be clear: There is no political or ideological substance to the 9front project beyond simply using and maintaining Plan 9.

                    One small addendum: What people say on IRC is up to each individual. #cat-v has never been ban-happy, but people saying stupid things are usually questioned thoroughly, often resulting in humiliation. That includes Nazis, racists, sexists, homophobes, and antisemites.

                    1. 5

                      The reason I don’t intend to investigate is pretty simple: If the bad things are true, it’ll be clear in due time without me having to put in the emotional resources and time to investigate. If they’re false, I’m not taking action against you, so there’s no reason to put in those resources. The resources required would be substantial; I’ve had to do it in other communities I manage.

                      I appreciate and understand why good people do not enjoy having to say “I’m not a Nazi” frequently. Unfortunately, Nazis aren’t stupid - they’re as capable of anyone else of saying thoughtful words to explain why they don’t feel they should have to say “I’m not a Nazi”. Literally any words can be co-opted by people who don’t care what those words mean. There’s no magic incantation. But Nazis do pay some small social cost by saying “I’m not a Nazi”, so it’s at least something.

                      I appreciate your statement, it does help.

                      1. 5

                        Thanks for your candor. Your method seems sound, and I can identify with the reasoning behind it.

                        I do comprehend that mentioning [thing] will always draw complaints that one is promoting [thing]. A certain amount of responsibility comes with the territory, especially where 20th century Germany is concerned. The very first 9front propaganda image was this: http://9front.org/img/9frontfell01.png. It’s David Bowie, captured by a photographer in Victoria Station, circa 1976. If you know anything at all about this debacle, it might help to illuminate the spirit in which the original 9front propaganda was undertaken: You stand up to wave at your fans and some enterprising photographer catches you at just the right moment; immediately, the front falls off, and the Daiichi Fukushima disaster lands in your publicist’s lap (matters are complicated by your previous “clever” statements to the press about the intersection of politics and the occult). What happened was, most of the 9front developers are German, or otherwise (Eastern) European, and big fans of things like Monty Python, cat-v, Milton Friedman. Inevitably, people started making jokes. Perhaps just as inevitably, outsiders to the project started noticing these jokes and expressing offense. This only caused the jokes to escalate. It might seem unconscionable to software evangelists, but 9front developers don’t care about attracting users or presenting a professional face to potential investors or employers. Everyone is only there to run and maintain Plan 9 for their own use. And our typical experience with people who show up on IRC to express outrage is that: 1.) it’s no use arguing with them, 2.) they probably don’t have much to offer the project in the first place. I think I mentioned earlier that most of these people tell us up front they have no interest in finding out what is really going on. Like I said, it’s win/win.

                        I will say that some idiots on IRC cloud the issue. I argue with them regularly.

                        1. 2

                          If they’re false, I’m not taking action against you

                          Honestly, I think that the “hat-off” comment of @pushcx was quite dangerous.

                          Implying that “y’all look like a bunch of white supremacists” is an action.

                          In itself, nothing I would care to flag if directed to me, but I think it’s worth to remember that Nazi were used to burn books.

                          If you do not “read closely enough”, you will end supporting their propaganda.

                          1. 3

                            All I can ask is that you trust my experience as a community manager, and my status as a person belonging to groups that fall squarely within Nazis’ targeting criteria. Nobody has the resources for a lengthy discussion of how to handle this on lobste.rs, but I can promise that thought is going into it.

                    2. 0

                      I am very confused about what point you are trying to make. I haven’t even posted in the thread that you linked to. Perhaps you were referring to a different thread? (apparently I did, but it was hidden because I was responding to a deleted comment.) While it is true that I dislike codes of conducts, what relevance does it have now?

                      And, btw, the 9front CoC changes with every refresh. Perhaps you saw one that you thought was relevant. I don’t know which one you were referring to.

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                        I was comparing the one you quoted prohibiting positing logs with the joke one I linked.

                        1. 2

                          i think the main part is that the log was hosted on 9front.org

                          1. 1

                            9front.org is a separate entity from #cat-v.

                            1. 5

                              In that case, it is even weirder that I’m being asked to enforce the chat room’s code of conduct against the site and I’m glad I’m staying out of it.

                              1. 1

                                maybe /u/4ad was asking OP to remove it, not a mod.

                                1. 4

                                  In #lobsters 4ad explicitly asked for the story on Lobsters to be deleted.

                                  1. 1

                                    ah. well there you go.

                                2. -1

                                  An IRC channel topic is not a “code of conduct”, and you know it.

                                  1. 5

                                    Yeah, it’s an encoding of rules for conduct and not a code of conduct.

                                    Please just leave me out of whatever this weird drama is. I’m not replacing the dead link with a live one because I already feel like we ducked a flamewar and I don’t want to tempt fate, let’s just stop commenting so it falls off the homepage and /comments.

                        2. 6

                          Ehm… this is published on 9front.org

                          1. 1

                            This was published years ago as part of an attempt to contextualize a factually inaccurate article written about 9front by a rogue journalist who has since left the field. The parent directory contains more information, including his note of apology. I have restricted access to the raw IRC log (the original interview from which the article was sourced took place entirely on IRC), pending an unlikely change in #cat-v policy.

                            1. 1

                              i don’t see anything in http://9front.org/press/sdtimes/ - did you intend to restrict access to the entire directory?

                              1. 1

                                Curiouser and curiouser. The directory listing is apparently, though inadvertently, excluded by the CMS (werc), which the old content was moved into… several years ago. This makes me wonder how he found the file in the first place; though it’s easy enough to imagine it turning up in search requests or other pages on the site that used to link to it in the past.

                                1. 1

                                  I’ve fixed things so that now there is a short explanation and links to the remaining files.