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    Somehow people discussing net neutrality are completely oblivious to the fact that ISPs are a state-enforced cartel everywhere. That’s the root problem here.

    If real competition were allowed, any ISP that tried to fleece people with a crippled connection would just keep losing customers to others that didn’t.

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      ISP’s in America are part of the overall plutonomy of a system design to benefit the rich at the poor’s expense. They use bribes to politicians to keep that happening as much as possible. Taxpayer-funded competition is already banned or restricted in over half the states thanks to their bribes. They screwed up with Wheeler not being what they expected. One of rare times I was excited to see each move a regulator head would make. Short-lived given their and Trump’s recent pick for FCC, an ex-Verizon guy, is now trying to give them more control and financial advantage over their customers.

      Quite the opposite of state-enforced when a private-sector cartel is writing the laws and regulations more often than they’re not at the expense of their customers and the state (outside intelligence sector). The problem is voter apathy and malicious, private parties at that point.

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          I’m countering misinformation. Your comment read like this was a socialist or communist state instead of one controlled largely by interests of elites in private sector. I’ve seen pushback and votes help when lots of people did it. When that didn’t work, there were protests, lawsuits, and so on that sometimes helped. I just don’t have confidence enough people will push for it to matter. That doesn’t mean I won’t discuss the nature of the situation or potential solutions for the event someone might act on them.

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            I’m not sure what part of “state-enforced cartel” or its implications could possibly be unclear to you.

            I’ve seen pushback and votes help when lots of people did it. When that didn’t work, there were protests, lawsuits, and so on that sometimes helped.

            The key word there is “pushback”, and protests. Politicians are completely free to ignore votes (and to count them in “desirable” ways).

            My point here is largely that we need to think outside the box of the political process, because it’s just a distraction meant to make you think you have a say in how you’re enslaved and ruled over.

            I’m countering misinformation too :)

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        I wouldn’t be so sure. I have a feeling the majority pleasing internet (facebook and youtube riddled with mind altering ads) would become cheaper than ssh, github and a vpn in a heartbeat even with competition.

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          Exactly. Optus in Australia offers “free social” packages (or they did back in 2013 when I used them) where Twitter, Facebook and a few others didn’t count against your mobile data usage. This is how companies will spin it. “Pay for what you want!” .. never mind that it breaks half the Internet (most Facebook posts are just links to other sites. So those people will be like “Well I can’t click on that” and will just stick to FB hosted content or links that go to YouTube .. if they have the YouTube package).

          Then when you want to get Network Neutrality going, big telecom will be like “the government wants to take your free Facebook!” (plus libertarian/don’t tread on me/free market/a company should be free to do what they want, forget that we don’t allow segregated bathrooms or smoking inside, blah blah .. bullshit)

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              We don’t have to speculate. Portugal recently got a taste of what the ISP’s want and Republicans intend to give them:

              https://boingboing.net/2017/10/28/warning-taken-as-suggestion.html

              Whereas everything great about the Web today happened under terms of net neutrality. Everyone from Tier 1’s to 3’s made billions in the process. It was working for everyone with much of the financial benefit going to the ISP’s. So, they surely don’t need more protection or benefits from government. It needs to swing the other way if we’re looking out for the people with things such as forced sharing of physical lines with reasonable rates to whoever laid them down. And/or national investment in more of it under some government nonprofit that shares the lines itself. Or subsidies for ISP’s doing the same. I’m open to anything but current system of oligopolies extorting people.

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                if we’re looking out for the people with things such as forced sharing of physical lines with reasonable rates to whoever laid them down. And/or national investment in more of it under some government nonprofit that shares the lines itself

                This is what I meant earlier. You appear to be seeing government coercion as a solution to itself as the underlying problem here.

                Instead of the government throwing its weight around even more, how about it just fuck off and let people start whatever ISPs they want to, connected the way they want to?

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                  The government isn’t the problem: the apathetic people are the problem. They could limit or punish this lobbying if they wanted on top of pushing hard for laws that benefit them more. They don’t.

                  Addressing the other concern, it’s been tried many times. The problem is that deploying high-speed Internet to neighborhoods with connections to backbones is very capital intensive. A local, project manager out here tells me they spend over $100,000k per neighborhood. The First Mover advantage lets the first ones in charging the default rates recover that. It can still take years. If they’re the second one in, the first can just cut rates on their stuff that’s probably already paid for to block the second one unless second is willing to make no ROI. Since it doesn’t happen a lot, there’s tons of places where the incumbent is making tons of profit. They can use that to soak up the losses charging almost nothing to the newcomer. Such tactics usually put newcomer out of business.

                  High cost of initial investment with long repayment is why infrastructure investments are typically done only by big companies or governments. Choosing between them, I’d rather go with government which has worked in foreign countries in some cases. Greedy businesses getting the infrastructure for themselves virtually never works to their targets’, err customers’, advantage. This doesn’t even include dirty tactics like digging up newcomers lines to make their service look unreliable like many ISP founders on Hacker News talked about. Even if they prove malice, the brand damage was already done. Need government intervention for that with at the least fines so large they’d not make money on an area with service loss for years. Even that wouldn’t be a guarantee.

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                    The government isn’t the problem: the apathetic people are the problem.

                    Government is always the problem. As I’ve kept saying here, there’s a state-enforced cartel of ISPs everywhere. That right there is government being the problem.

                    They could limit or punish this lobbying if they wanted on top of pushing hard for laws that benefit them more. They don’t.

                    That too is government being the problem.

                    You seem to think government should “fix” symptoms of government itself being the problem.

                    I get it. You’re looking at this from the perspective of the political process and the system we live in, because that’s how governments have brainwashed us all to think.

                    (Or, quite likely, you’re skillfully trolling me)

                    But thinking and acting in terms of the political process only serves to perpetuate it, which we don’t want to be doing, because it’s just a smoke-screen for the vehicle-for-mass-exploitation that is government.

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            A solution to this problem is probably the most valuable thing that nobody seems to be working on.