I really wish Guix wasn’t connected with GNU. It seems like it could give Nix some competition. Unfortunately, it doesn’t have a mainline kernel and is actively hostile towards its use with non-free software.
Nonguix exists and has substitute servers that include the mainline kernel and other popular software like steam and Firefox. So what you want in this case is available given a little research and setup.
I’ve done this research and found the offerings. They are small and from what I’ve read are actively disparaged in the official communication channels. This means a new user will effectively be told to follow GNU purity or get out. Nix is successful because of the strength of its community contributions, which are unwelcome in Guix. That a mainline kernel and Firefox unavailable means that the community will forever be artificially limited by the GNU ideology.
I get it, utopia sounds amazing. I also get that utopians alienate almost everybody.
This means a new user will effectively be told to follow GNU purity or get out.
Well as a former “new user” I’ve never felt anything but welcomed by the community surrounding Guix. I’ve run it on hardware with binary blobs and even now run it on a desktop that uses a Radeon card and CPU with microcode. Pass that warning on Nonguix there are detailed instructions on how to add their kernel package and a fairly active ticket system. There’s never a need to ever engage someone about installing anything if a user has the patience to read the documentation and usually the roadblocks aren’t related to the nonfree software in question and people are happy to help.
I think ultimately it comes down to how much a person is willing to let the idea of GNU stop them from even trying. Because IMO the artificially limiting factor isn’t the stance of GNU, it’s the willingness of others to engage with them in spite of their prejudice against GNU.
My understanding is that the relevant guideline is “By contrast, to suggest that others run a nonfree program opposes the basic principles of GNU, so it is not allowed in GNU Project discussions.” https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.en.html
As a Guix user that happily uses nonguix, I’m okay with running non-free software as being considered out-of-scope of the project.
It’s as out-of-scope as discussing sports or mountains.
AIUI, it’s fine to discuss free alternatives to non-free software.
Nix is successful because of the strength of its
community contributions, which are unwelcome in Guix. That a mainline
kernel and Firefox unavailable means that the community will forever be
artificially limited by the GNU ideology.
The kernel is mainline with patches applied (as most distros do). That said, the patches are far more invasive, removing blobs.
The difficulty of running Guix reflects the difficulty of running free software. It shows where the problems are.
Guix would be more popular if it allowed non-free software, but that would be in conflict with its goals.
I’m unsure what you want a citation on, but I’ll cite the nonguix readme
Please do NOT promote this repository on any official Guix communication channels, such as their mailing lists or IRC channel, even in response to support requests! This is to show respect for the Guix project’s strict policy against recommending nonfree software, and to avoid any unnecessary hostility.
That last bit about hostility is exactly what I’m talking about. That non free software is considered as off-topic as sports is precisely my point. It limits the reach, approachability, friendliness and is counter to the expectations of the vast majority of users. Users want their hardware to work, and if they can’t access information about non free software in official channels then they’ll likely just give up.
I started this thread saying I’d like Guix without the GNU ideology. I share many of the same goals, but I also realize that taken to the extreme they provide their own limitations on my “freedom”.
I’m honestly happy it works for you and meets your needs. I’m sure that given the effort it would meet mine. Maybe one day I’ll give it a try, but I’m admittedly turned off by supporting the project with my time.
Guix without GNU is just any of the not official channels (i.e. anywhere except the IRC and mailing list) so just join the matrix group and voila! Dream come true.
I wonder how much effort it would require to build a similar system on top of a R7RS compatible scheme, with minimal amount of extensions. We can’t divorce Guix with GNU. The Nix language is honestly the worst thing about Nix package manager.
Nix’s power is the package availability, contributed by the community. That it is successful despite the language is a testament to the power of its ideas. Imagine how much farther it could go with a more approachable language underneath.
Would it be possible to write a mapper, that would simply parse nix package format and write another, more desirable one?
I don’t know much about tech underlaying nix. With (somewhat-) centralised software packagers it should be relatively easy, but what about nix, how does it work?
I really wish Guix wasn’t connected with GNU. It seems like it could give Nix some competition. Unfortunately, it doesn’t have a mainline kernel and is actively hostile towards its use with non-free software.
Nonguix exists and has substitute servers that include the mainline kernel and other popular software like steam and Firefox. So what you want in this case is available given a little research and setup.
I’ve done this research and found the offerings. They are small and from what I’ve read are actively disparaged in the official communication channels. This means a new user will effectively be told to follow GNU purity or get out. Nix is successful because of the strength of its community contributions, which are unwelcome in Guix. That a mainline kernel and Firefox unavailable means that the community will forever be artificially limited by the GNU ideology.
I get it, utopia sounds amazing. I also get that utopians alienate almost everybody.
Well as a former “new user” I’ve never felt anything but welcomed by the community surrounding Guix. I’ve run it on hardware with binary blobs and even now run it on a desktop that uses a Radeon card and CPU with microcode. Pass that warning on Nonguix there are detailed instructions on how to add their kernel package and a fairly active ticket system. There’s never a need to ever engage someone about installing anything if a user has the patience to read the documentation and usually the roadblocks aren’t related to the nonfree software in question and people are happy to help.
I think ultimately it comes down to how much a person is willing to let the idea of GNU stop them from even trying. Because IMO the artificially limiting factor isn’t the stance of GNU, it’s the willingness of others to engage with them in spite of their prejudice against GNU.
Citation?
My understanding is that the relevant guideline is “By contrast, to suggest that others run a nonfree program opposes the basic principles of GNU, so it is not allowed in GNU Project discussions.” https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.en.html
As a Guix user that happily uses nonguix, I’m okay with running non-free software as being considered out-of-scope of the project.
It’s as out-of-scope as discussing sports or mountains.
AIUI, it’s fine to discuss free alternatives to non-free software.
The kernel is mainline with patches applied (as most distros do). That said, the patches are far more invasive, removing blobs.
The difficulty of running Guix reflects the difficulty of running free software. It shows where the problems are.
Guix would be more popular if it allowed non-free software, but that would be in conflict with its goals.
I’m unsure what you want a citation on, but I’ll cite the nonguix readme
That last bit about hostility is exactly what I’m talking about. That non free software is considered as off-topic as sports is precisely my point. It limits the reach, approachability, friendliness and is counter to the expectations of the vast majority of users. Users want their hardware to work, and if they can’t access information about non free software in official channels then they’ll likely just give up.
I started this thread saying I’d like Guix without the GNU ideology. I share many of the same goals, but I also realize that taken to the extreme they provide their own limitations on my “freedom”.
I’m honestly happy it works for you and meets your needs. I’m sure that given the effort it would meet mine. Maybe one day I’ll give it a try, but I’m admittedly turned off by supporting the project with my time.
Guix without GNU is just any of the not official channels (i.e. anywhere except the IRC and mailing list) so just join the matrix group and voila! Dream come true.
You can use a mainline kernel trivially if you like, just enable the channel
Also you can use guix on any linuxy OS, it doesn’t have to be used to control the whole OS
This is a point often lost when talking about nix or guix.
I wonder how much effort it would require to build a similar system on top of a R7RS compatible scheme, with minimal amount of extensions. We can’t divorce Guix with GNU. The Nix language is honestly the worst thing about Nix package manager.
Nix’s power is the package availability, contributed by the community. That it is successful despite the language is a testament to the power of its ideas. Imagine how much farther it could go with a more approachable language underneath.
Funny how opinions differ. I think the Nix language and the code written in it (nixpkgs) is the most important thing about Nix.
If I understand you, it seems like this boils down to:
Would it be possible to write a mapper, that would simply parse nix package format and write another, more desirable one?
I don’t know much about tech underlaying nix. With (somewhat-) centralised software packagers it should be relatively easy, but what about nix, how does it work?
Yes of course, please don’t forget to post here once you’ve done it!
Why not? It’s the easiest project to work if you really don’t want to deal with upstream, and channels mean you barely need to