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    Having an independent Rust foundation removes one of the largest barriers I’ve had to using Rust in production. I had to worry that, should Mozilla go under, Rust would be left rudderless.

    Now, the only major objection I have is that there is no specification of the language. This goes beyond just “no third party implementations” kinda thing, but rather that there are fairly important parts of the language that are unspecified. The exact rules of the borrow checker, for example, are not specified (the Rustonomicon even explicitly laments this fact).

    That second point isn’t as big an objection, though. Lots of languages don’t have formal specifications and I still use them in production.

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      I can imagine such a specification being quite difficult to arrive at, barring some intense formalization of properties that power Rust.

      However, I can also imagine such a specification being highly desirable for the five megacorps that are already in support of the RSF. Thus, perhaps the future will bring a bright thing or two in that realm.

      It’s very big, and it’s very broad, and there hasn’t been a lot of wrangling in that department. I can’t blame them for that, tbh. Formalization is pretty difficult to go about, especially dealing with a large team, especially when that team isn’t particularly academically bent or adept, and finally, because it’s not something that the average project needs. Very few people relative to the masses of developers are people with formal spec writing and verification experience. That’s a big ask without a big wallet to make it so.

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        People have already been working on this for years, see RustBelt

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      deconstructing previously assumed-immovable tradeoffs and binary oppositions

      When you have one hardback edition of Derrida, everything looks like a nail…

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        I think this is the biggest advancement in Rust so far. I’ve been concerned about laying a finger on Rust for a long time because I have a lot of concern about Mozilla and it’s ethics. After the Brendan Eich ordeal it was difficult to rationalize any kind of investment in a company that behaved that way.

        Bringing Rust into the realm of the Software Foundation, I can say I’ll be following Rust with a renewed interest. Zig beat them to it, and I’d gladly consider a new project in Zig before I chose Rust, for obvious reasons, as I’m sure we’re all pretty sick of hearing about “what Rust can (kinda) do”, but all the same, these are some big names getting behind the project. That much can’t be ignored.

        2021 is shaping up to be a fast-moving year in PLs and PLT research as well.

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          as I’m sure we’re all pretty sick of hearing about “what Rust can (kinda) do”

          At this point I hear more people saying this than I do people actually evangelizing Rust.

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            Brendan Eich did something that made it hard to believe he’d be fair and welcoming in a global project that extremely heavily depends on public goodwill and participation of volunteers.

            (And he continues to make controversial, and frankly dangerous and stupid, public statements today. He denies that face masks work during a global pandemic, and actively discourages people from listening to public health experts, for example.)

            His job was to be the face of the company. People freely chose not to associate with a company who chose someone controversial as their face. Enough people made this free choice that it seemed wise to pick someone else.

            I never understood why this was so terrible. What is the alternative? Force people to use products and services they don’t want to use? Forbid people from making purchasing decisions based on how they feel about employees at a company?

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              Enough people made this free choice that it seemed wise to pick someone else.

              I never understood why this was so terrible.

              TBH I assumed the bad behavior referred to was that they kept a shitbag like Eich around as long as they did.

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                A diverse opinion being rejected in a group inherently portrays that group as exclusive in nature. Bubbling themselves in has alienated a lot of possibilities. Look at recent cuts Mozilla has to make, look at FF’s market share in the browser realm. I see W3 reporting FF as lower than 10% these days.

                I don’t know about his opinions on these things, I’m not really trying to open a discussion about Eich, I’m not his follower, I am just presenting the novel idea that booting people for their personal opinions leads to failure and echo chambers and whatever else.

                His JOB was co-founder. He CO-founded Mozilla. That’s different than being hired as CEO “here, go be the public figure, soak up those headline bullets and shut up on socials”.

                Anyhow, I’m not a Mozilla history expert. I don’t think it’ll be relevant in 20 years, afaict it’s already dead.

                Rust however, need not die, insofar as enough resources are dedicated to its longevity factor. Rust needs major reworking to be able to integrate new compiler core team, there’s major work needed to improve syntax issues, there’s HUGE work needed to do something about the compile times. I’ve seen users describe it as “not a better C, but a better C++” and I think that’s a decent designation for it for the time being. Still, without major pivoting and better resource and labor allocation, the project is in big trouble. I see people working on Rust who tweet 50-70+ a day. How productive can they really be???

                It’s whatever. I really like the idea of a software foundation. It’s definitely going to be helpful to have diverse minds in diverse fields bouncing ideas around. It’s great.

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                  May I refer you to the Paradox of tolerance? Groups that want to maximize diversity must exclude those who are against diversity.

                  Eich gave public material support to Prop 8. He could have pretended he doesn’t support it, he could have “shut up on socials”, but he chose not to.

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                    I remember when he was debating this on Twitter. His response was that people not wanting to work with him because of his support of Prop 8 (which would make same-sex marriage illegal) was “fascism”.

                    Of course, he said this to people who were freely choosing to not associate with him based on their own opinions and his public statements…while he himself was supporting expanding government power to limit the kinds of associations consenting adults could participate in.

                    One of those is was way more “fascist” than the other.

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                    A diverse opinion

                    This characterization is both insufficient and inaccurate.

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                      His JOB was co-founder. He CO-founded Mozilla. That’s different than being hired as CEO “here, go be the public figure, soak up those headline bullets and shut up on socials”.

                      No one complained about him until they hired him to be the CEO. I didn’t even know his name before that and I bet a lot of other people are in the same boat. You seem really offended by something but you don’t seem to know what it is…

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                        Still, without major pivoting and better resource and labor allocation, the project is in big trouble

                        You would know better than I would, but this is honestly the first time I’ve ever heard anything other than “Rust is the language of the future and there’s no need to learn anything else ever.” I’m being only slightly facetious.

                        Seriously, though, from a mostly-outsider’s perspective, it seems like Rust is going nowhere but up and seems to be poised to take over the world. I suppose there’s a difference between Rust-the-language and Rust-the-project, but they’re pretty much identical to me.

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                          I see people working on Rust who tweet 50-70+ a day. How productive can they really be???

                          This is patently ridiculous as an argument.

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                        Mozilla did not own or control Rust at any point. The Rust project started out managed by Graydon Hoare in 2006, and Mozilla began financially supporting it in 2009 (link to the history). Mozilla did own the trademarks for the Rust and Cargo names and logos, which were controlled and licensed in an open manner, and protected only to the degree necessary to avoid implied official status or endorsement by the Rust project (link to the policy). Mozilla also paid for the salaries of developers who worked on Servo, for some period one of the two largest Rust projects (the other being the Rust compiler itself), as well as the salaries of some folks who worked on the Rust compiler. However, Mozilla did not exercise or influence the direction of the Rust language, and from an early period a majority of Rust’s contributors, including members of the Core Team and other Rust Teams, did not work for Mozilla.

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                          what Rust can (kinda) do

                          I’m curious what this bit refers to

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                            This could refer to many different parts of a immature ecosystem like GUI programming

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                          Very cool! I’m curious, what are the best “design patterns” for these types of programming language foundations? Who is doing this right? Are there non-profits where all corporate docs are on GitHub? Where all payments are done via crypto? Curious about the bleeding edge of running distributed non-profit organizations.

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                            The Python Software Foundation is a good one to look at.

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                            Downvoted as off-topic. This is business news, not technical content.

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                              This is the kind of news that has a gigantic impact on future technical content.

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                                Is this a new thing here to explain your downvote?

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                                  No, some people want to be transparent.