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    What's Wrong with the Web? javascript web developer.telerik.com

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    I’m getting a little worn out now, but I appreciate the effort that went into collecting and summarizing it all. Probably the kind of post that would be more valuable in six months when I’m trying to track all these links.

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      Heh. The entire Javascript ecosystem seems to have taken the core architectural design decisions behind XHTML4 and CSS2… and then said, “How can we script and framework our way around all these decisions? How can we override all the thought and choices that went into those standards….. and pretend we’re in a world where Java plugins actually won and were cool?”

      The framework problem can be compounded by an increasingly type of developer that Christian Heilmann has recently termed the “Full StackOverflow Developer.” The answer to the the StackOverflow question invariably invokes a framework or library:

      The entire culture dominant among web developers today is bizarrely framework-heavy, with seemingly no thought given to minimizing dependencies and page weight. Most times I land on a Stack Overflow page with a simple Javascript question, the highest-voted answer is “Just include [framework X] and then call this function,” even though a few posts beneath it is a perfectly suitable, standalone 10-line function. – Marco Arment, PPK on web-development tools

      For awhile I was fascinated by D3.js… until I saw the work and effort and complexity and coupling to stacks of technologies that goes into creating a D3 visualization. And compared that with one in say R or Ye Olde libplot…… and then I feel positively nauseous.

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        Loved this quote….

        The web doesn’t suck. Your websites suck.

        All of your websites suck.

        You destroy basic usability by hijacking the scrollbar. You take native functionality (scrolling, selection, links, loading) that is fast and efficient and you rewrite it with ‘cutting edge’ javascript toolkits and frameworks so that it is slow and buggy and broken. You balloon your websites with megabytes of cruft. You ignore best practices. You take something that works and is complementary to your business and turn it into a liability. – Baldur Bjarnason, Facebook and the media:

        My number one all time pet hate?

        The fact I can never predict what the “page up” and “page down” keys are going to do. In my minimalist world view they should only ever do one thing.. Scroll the whole flaming page up, or scroll the whole flaming page down.

        I don’t care whether you have a chunk of flash, a text box or a whatever. I want the same damn thing to happen every time I hit the same key.

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          It’s funny to see an article like this, demanding more innovation.

          A few days ago we had an article telling us the web suffered from too much innovation and that a good approach would be to stop new “standards” for a couple of years.

          I personally agree with the latter. Instead of clamping more and more onto it, we need to clear out the trash. Of course, you can’t ban HTML5, but as food for thought for the W3C, what’s so hard about just declaring a set of default video formats every browser should support? And as a minimal condition, these formats shouldn’t be patent-encumbered or non-free. The people at the W3C should grow some balls and finally start coming up with strict standards. It’s not helpful when they just spend their time “documenting” what the big companies have come up with in the major browsers. In the end, nobody can grasp what it’s all about and you need millions of man hours to even create a decent web-browser.

          The web should be free, so why on earth are we so inclined to make it so inaccessible?
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            There’s not even a list of plain image formats a browser must support, is there? Maybe start with that before trying to solve video.

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              I actually thought about this point when I wrote the paragraph about video formats. Thing is, it took over a decade for browsers to properly support a set of image formats properly, and this was mostly due to a long evolutionary process where certain formats were found to be best for certain applications (jpg for photos, png for line-art, gif for animations, …), but living in Web 3.0 we forget how difficult it has been to come this way.

              Nowadays, people not only understand what webm, ogg, mp4, … are really good for (and tbh, it’s all about storage size anyway) and publishing “HTML 5 video” becomes a complex task, but also companies fight wars with “their” formats. Only a fool would believe the “best” format is chosen for technical reasons in this early stage; webm is on a good way though. Apple has MPEG, Google has webm, Microsoft has/had wmv, … . Image formats never “really” belonged to a special company if we take a look at those which raced for the win a few years ago in the web.

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              what’s so hard about just declaring a set of default video formats every browser should support?

              A declaration is useless without incentives or consequences to back it up.

              The W3C isn’t in a position to send ultimatums to Google, Microsoft, etc. Most national governments aren’t even in that position.

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                Though, the W3C is definitely in a position to declare standards. That’s what it does, or am I missing something? Of course, the companies are not forced to adhere to these standards, but if the W3C for instance declared webm to be a “must-have”-supported format, maybe Apple would be more inclined to support it, else Safari would quickly be known as the “non-standard” browser. Not in the interest of being booed I guess they would do it.

                However, the W3C literally is a set of representatives of the industry. I never expect them to make a move.

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                  Standards aren’t declared, they’re agreed-upon. It’s the only way the political dynamic can work.

                  if the W3C for instance declared webm to be a “must-have”-supported format, maybe Apple would be more inclined to support it, else Safari would quickly be known as the “non-standard” browser

                  That’s a pretty weak threat. Even if Apple cared, they could easily win any PR war because they’re popular and the W3C is not.

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                The people at the W3C should grow some balls and finally start coming up with strict standards.

                “Fuck the pope. How many divisions does he have, anyway?”

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                  Thanks for the comment. To be clear, I was pushing for a very different kind of innovation than the one PPK was arguing against. I was arguing for building fun/cool things on the web again - not on pushing more browser features. To me, the web was once fun and innovative, but has lost that edge to IoT, devices and apps.

                2. -1


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                    Actually I think not. The web is much better at dealing with spam than email. I have my regular list of sites and feeds to poll, but when I decide I don’t like them anymore, I stop going. The web is a pull medium, not push. I only read what I want.

                    The closest one can come to push is spamming is submitting to lobsters. But then you get down voted, filtered, moderated, etc. We’ve had limited success building shared email spam filters, but the web ones work pretty well.

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                      What is Telerik? The website makes it sound like Medium but almost the only people that post links to it only post links to it, as if spam.

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                        Telerik, AFAIK, is a company that owns Fiddler, and some ASP.NET libs, I think these articles are from their community blog, but I’m not sure. Pretty sure it isn’t spam though.

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                          It is very confusing because @remotesynth has literally only posted posts from telerik, which feels quite suspicious. however @jcs is the one that invited him here.

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                            @jcs is the one that invited him here.

                            Most likely from the old invitation request queue.

                            At least one user was banned for spamming telerik.com links, but most of those felt very spammy advertising for Telerik products and were downvoted into oblivion. The links @remotesynth is posting about development do not feel spammy and have gotten a number of upvotes.

                            Are you guys claiming they are spam because of the actual content or just because they are from telerik.com?

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                              It seems like the people are downvoting based on the source of the articles rather than the articles themselves. I have read all of his submissions and they don’t seem spammy to me.


                              Just took a look at his Twitter account, his bio seems to explain why he most/all his submissions are from Telerik:

                              Focused on web, mobile & JavaScript development. Work at Telerik running http://developer.telerik.com . Co-edit Mobile Web Weekly http://mobilewebweekly.co/

                              However, since he isn’t promoting products, but rather a community/publishing platform, I don’t really see anything wrong with it. Just my humble opinion.

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                            @james was not suspecting the article to be spam or something. He was giving an answer to “What’s wrong with the Web?”.

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                              Newp, sorry i was implying that the article itself is spam. I downvote all telerik posts, and consider @remotesynth a spammer because he promotes content for commercial reasons, doesn’t contribute in any other way, and he invited other users who then also proceeded to spam telerik posts.

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                                I find this funny. Yes, I promote Telerik articles, but I post to lobste.rs only when I believe they are relevant to this audience. The articles are not spam and the titles accurately reflect the content, even if the site is owned by Telerik. This article doesn’t try to push Telerik products…it isn’t a pitch or marketing spam. None of the articles I post do.

                                I contribute to the community in tons of ways, speaking at conferences, writing for various sites, co-editing Mobile Web Weekly, promoting all kinds of posts from a variety of sources across various social media sites, authoring a forthcoming report for O'Reilly….But to you, this is somehow the work of a spammer.

                                Your attitude is the kind that makes it tough for those of us who try to push the companies we work for to positively contribute valuable content to the community.

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                                  Glad to hear from you. My only contact with you is the lobste.rs community, in which this is your second comment and where you only post articles from one for-profit company. That’s spammy behaviour, and not indicative of interaction in a broader community, otherwise why wouldn’t you be posting content from your broader interactions with other technology, subjects, notes from your talks, stuff from other websites, etc. etc. ?

                                  I find it hard to believe you don’t come across any content from anywhere else on the web that you think the lobste.rs community would like to read, maybe you could post some of that too - that would increase the value of your contributions on behalf of your employer and make you look less like a spam bot?

                                  Maybe you’d like to come and chat about the work too, if you want your company and colleagues to interact more with the community, then come and interact more with the community?

                                  (Consider algorithmically detecting spammers - you’d be quite likely to be a spammer, no? View the posts from any other user, then view your posts.)

                                  Whilst posting stuff from exactly one source and that source being your employer is problematic behaviour for me, it doesn’t really matter - I like lobste.rs because it’s a communal voting system and the collective will decide the value of the content everyone posts.

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                                    Right, but, as you note, you were not deciding based on the “value of the content” but purely on the source of the content. If you think the links I posted are not valuable based upon the content, I don’t have a problem with it being voted down.

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                                    FTR, I feel your pain and appreciate what you are trying to do. Almost all of the articles you have posted have been full of good information, and I look forward to seeing more.

                                    To the anti-Telerik people out there: get over your bias of the site an article is published on and try reading it before flagging.

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                                      After first seeing you spamming Telerik articles, I spent a while googling the company (bored, obsessive, too much coffee, I can’t remember). Can you describe their business so it’s more clear, because the website is very templatey, commercial and sales-y. The stock photos make it look strange, and it is very unfriendly and unclear what the core business is.

                                      My guess was that their business was cash driven - purchase troubled or cheap tech projects to then sell those ‘boxed’ products, grouping them together into some kind of rough collective with the hope of cross-sales, or to flip the individual companies or sell the whole thing later for a profit.

                                      This also appears to be the strategy of the parent company Progress, who also have an extremely weird web site.

                                      If I had $10M in the bank for a project, and I recruited someone to go out and buy little tech projects into a profitable portfolio without actually caring what they were, and get some shiny website built for the whole thing, I think Progress/Telerik is what would come out.

                                      But, please prove me wrong, and I hope this is some feedback as to why I’m suspicious and how your behaviour fit with the notion of a heavily sales/conversion based company, and how Telerik and Progress’s website look to me.

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                                        I hate to say it, but you seem to very much focused on making criticisms and snap judgements based purely on preconceived notions and biases and gloss over any of the actual information. You’ve already made a number of judgements about Progress and Telerik based on images and the look of the site. People do that…I get that. However you’ve taken a lot of time to criticize me and backhandedly criticize my employer, without taking even a moment (it would appear) to read anything - the article I linked to, any of the product or company information on the sites of either Progress or Telerik. And yet you call what I post spam?

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                                          My post was a description of how these companies appear to me and a request to understand their business, so your posts can be placed in some better context

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                                    Ah, that would make more sense, if that was indeed what he meant.