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    Do not delete the path part of that URL, yikes.

    Anyway, what is “Suckless”? That’s what I was trying to see, and instead got an image of a naked man holding a bottle of wine.

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      For Suckless, see https://suckless.org/, not the users subdomain.

      It’s a project/group related to cat-v and classical-unix/plan9 advocacy, rejecting tools that “suck” and wanting to replace them with “simpler” alternatives (dwm for window managment, st for terminals, dmenu for reading keyboard input, …). This often entails that configurations have to be applied pre-compilation and that the default distributions of various tools and projects are pretty lean – hence additional features are collected as patches, which are listed here, showing which can be successfully applied, and which can’t.

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        I can report that dwm and st are great tools.

        The only hitch is recompiling them after modifying their configuration files, which are written in C. Many people don’t like this. Some, like myself, don’t mind.

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          I used st (off and on) for a while (~1yr), and for me the biggest annoyance was having to rebase some patches when multiple patches modify similar lines of code. Once that headache was resolved, it was generally OK unless some st commits triggered rebasing some stuff again. Basically it was all the fun of maintaining your own branch of st with patches someone else wrote.

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        Suckless was in its heyday around the time of the systemd eruption, as far as I know. This would be around 2010. Slightly prior was this one weird viral video of an artist named Gunther, a self-styled “sex prophet,” who made the rounds with a (completely SFW in the most technical of senses, though apparently not germane to your sensibilities, bheisler, which is fine with me, thus this explanatory note to lessen the blow of freakishness herein) music video called “Ding Ding Dong.” Pop music beats, euro summer beach ditzy style. Not amazing, but pretty good, definitely unique. The naked man is that same gunther. Just wanted to clear that up, because this is a clear case of an overreaction to a misunderstood joke. As far as I know, the suckless community was and is to the extent that it still exists, pretty insular. Probably didn’t anticipate being posted on an HN style board

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          Probably didn’t anticipate being posted on an HN style board

          Lobste.rs has even “suckless developer” hat used by several people. Not quite buying the unanticipated part.

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            Reasonable.

            Would you, however, admit that Gunther, the individual who presumably is the man behind gunther.suckless org, is not the OP of this link?

            In admitting this, if you do admit this, are you not therefore forced to agree with me that the post we’re discussing was not intentionally put forth as a display of nudity to eyes averse to that same nudity?

            If a list of patches to utilities and other programs is hosted at a path of a subdomain which contains the image a naked man holding a vertical wine bottle (with suggestive verticality) is posted without awareness of the suggestive verticality of said bottle, then can’t we conclude that the proximate nature of that suggestively vertical bottle to said list of patches to utilities and programs is in some sense accidental, and therefore unanticipated?

            By this argument, I intend to demonstrate that your claim, while seemingly reasonable, is eliding the quite clear nature of the circumstances, in an effort to maintain that all suckless developers and subdomain holders should be aware of all possible audiences for their online “speech” (or however you wish to define what the image is), when in fact it is absurd to believe that all speech of all suckless developers would be anticipated to agree with all possible audiences. I’m afraid that, unless Gunther appears to justify his position, we’ll have to remain in a misunderstanding silence regarding the reason why a suggestively vertical bottle and naked man are so closely associated with this list of patches.

            I tried to explain it, because it seemed necessary to explain, to me. Perhaps one day, your doubt regarding this explanation will itself be exposed to the eyes of someone on a far away news site, and they will be as horrified as if they had seen a vertical and suggestively placed bottle.

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              @varjag simply wanted to inform you that @FRIGN not only has an account here, but also has the [suckess.org developer] hat. So a lot of the community knows about Suckless (presumably not @bheisler, who asked the question in the first place).

              I must confess to be in the same position as @bheisler. I knew of suckless, but had no idea what the linked page meant in context of that project.

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            So the guy probably thought since he had the same name as this weirdo that for internet reasons (remember when memes were cool and unique signifiers of in-group identification?) it would naturally follow to have him around on the ol’ personal page

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              Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but I miss the old web, and I am not even old! Would you, Herr heisler, have been hip to a tidy game of Flash-powered Sandspiel, even if it were on a subdomain of ebaumsworld?

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            The suckless project makes and maintains a bunch of Unix programs that meet their definition of “sucking less” - http://suckless.org/philosophy/

            I’ve been caught off guard by them offering personal subdomains on their site before, too - suckless.org is SFW, but any individual subdomain?

            I use and like dwm when I can.

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              They like to send mail from hosts with names like wolfsschanze. You can also see FRIGN’s opinion about diversity as shared on lobsters. Or the time someone pointed out there are torchlit marches at suckless conferences and someone else asked FRIGN to clarify and he basically admitted to being a white nationalist, complete with dogwhistles like “cultural marxism”?

              I’m not saying that suckless is definitely a white nationalist organization but I am saying someone would have to do a lot of work to convince me otherwise.

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                Must we do this everytime someone posts something suckless related? Can we please just talk about technology instead of all this political nonsense and random accusations?

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                  Look, for every person who thinks this is “political nonsense and random accusations,” there’s at least one person who thinks this is so damning that they want literally nothing to do with suckless ever again.

                  And despite Lobster’s general “politics is off-topic” policy, this thread is literally someone asking “what is ‘Suckless’?”, so if it’s on-topic anywhere, it’s here.

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                    Please see my reply above.

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                      Um. Welcome to lobsters? A couple of words to a wise guy:

                      1. Your previous comment is not “above” this one. The whole tree gets reordered based on upvotes.
                      2. That stream-of-consciousness-wall-of-text style may play well wherever @enkiv2 invited you from, but it’s gauche here. At least, I find it exhausting more than amusing.
                      3. For heaven’s sake, please don’t feed the trolls! No matter how many big buckets of troll slop you may have handy.
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                        Thank you, minimax! – for your welcome, since it is utterly welcoming. A couple more words in response, and whether they contain a wisdom equivalent to my similar and apparently inherent quality of same is entirely your determination. I am so grateful to have run into an authority on these matters. Perhaps you can finally solve the trolley problem for us all, and divide good people from bad ones, as you scry into your palantir of forum posts.

                        To wit -

                        (1) My previous comment is in a tree of comments.

                        (a) What is the precise and preferred nomenclature, such that an ignoramus could understand?

                        (b) In the sense that a tree (such as this comment tree) goes from a single node to plenty of nodes, is it entirely inappropriate to say “above” in order to indicate, where n is the depth indicated away from the origin, trunk, root, or base of the tree, the position n - 1? I understand if your perspective is like the protagonist of Ender’s game, and you feel like n-1 compared to n is down, not up, but Ender held that of his enemies, and I am not yours. Are you mine?

                        (2) I don’t care. Actually, like a total four-year-old, I feel an evil glee.

                        (a) When you say, “stream-of-consciousness-wall-of-text,” you are committing a grammatical error by hypenating between “chunks” of words. One noun is “stream-of-consciousness” and the other is “wall-of-text,” and, while neither necessitates hyphens, it is an elegant stylistic choice, and redounds back upon my usage of “implied-by-you.” But the nouns you connected simply don’t need to be joined. In fact, they should be separated by a comma. I’m running out of breath just looking at it.

                        (b) Gauche – what is the meaning of this word in the sense you’re applying?

                        (b, cont.) John Ohno is no concern of yours in this regard, is he? What are you, a partisan of webbiness that wants to condemn hypertext? What beef could you possibly have with the guy? How do you even go from his proto-post-communism on the one hand and quasi-Ludditic radically conservative ideals of “small computing” on the other, to me? Am I to consider you as thinking that my response, “below,” (in opposition to ngoldbaum’s unfair condemnation of an entire ideal of technical practice in contemporary FOSS on the basis of his own flawed reasoning, equating cultural marxism, which predates the ilk whom ngoldbaum is, in abject ignorance, confusingly attempting to condemn, by about 45 years) the same as enkiv2’s opinions?

                        (b, cont.) That you find it exhausting to read: good for you. :)

                        (3) This would be humorless, except it is meaningless.

                        Please, oh minimax, solve the trolley problem, since you know how to identify trolls and can give advice to the gauche. I am happy to lay on the tracks if you want to flip that switch to experimentally determine once and for all whether it is worth saving some arbitrary group of people as opposed to me. Regarding the basic subject matter at hand, which is suckless, and someone’s unfair-in-my-opinion (see how that’s grammatical?) condemnation of suckless, I should say that I find a policy of opposition to affirmative action intolerant. I support techne, and it follows that I support suckless. It does not therefore follow that I support what ngoldbaum very confusedly understands to be a persecution of the Jews by FRIGN. This seems absurd to have to point out, but here we are. Again: I find intolerance disgusting. I also find vendettas disgusting. Lastly, I find hubris disgusting. I am painfully aware that I, too, sadly lack the cleanliness that would come with an absence of this very quality. However, you have to admit, your hubris in judging me is incomparably greater than my hubris in defending myself against your allegations of . . .

                        1. Being a “wise guy.”
                        2. Having a “gauche” “style.”
                        3. Having an exhausting and unamusing style.
                        4. Feeding the trolls, in contradiction to the “sake of heaven.”
                        5. Having handy “troll slop.”

                        Your welcome is most welcome.

                        And you’re welcome.

                        Regards,

                        Myself

                        P.S.: “A couple of words” is merely a figure of speech! And you don’t have to type “um,” even if you habitually say it!

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                          This sardonic flippancy is tedious and unwelcome. Please treat others better than this.

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                            Noted

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                            (a) What is the precise and preferred nomenclature, such that an ignoramus could understand?

                            I prefer to simply provide a link to the comment.

                            (2) I don’t care. Actually, like a total four-year-old, I feel an evil glee.

                            This is not a good attitude to have on Lobste.rs.

                            (b) Gauche – what is the meaning of this word in the sense you’re applying?

                            I’m not @minimax, but I would read it as “socially awkward”.

                            (b, cont.) John Ohno is no concern of yours in this regard, is he?

                            Actually he is, as he invited you and has a certain responsibility for that invitation.

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                              Yeah, um, @lettucehead, please don’t get yourself banned. I would not have invited you if I didn’t expect you to acknowledge community norms & practices.

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                                I just saw your reply to this thread, and I want to thank you again for the invite, and assure you that I won’t be a troll or otherwise possess sardonic flippancy in the future. Well I will try to tone it down. A lot.

                                I still have all my questions from this thread (how the heck can somebody using the words “cultural Marxism” to discuss radical forms of Marxism having to do with culture, which are genuine phenomena, be considered an anti-Semitic “dogwhistle?” Why was I considered a troll for pointing out this exhausting and unfair absurdity? Will pushcx ever change his mind about my sardonic flippancy, and see it for the charmingly wonderful firehose of Furby-faced unicorns it really is? Like the center of a Tootsie Pop’s per-lick depth scalar, the world may never know)… Thus I have decided to just let it go. Or maybe I’ll start a tech blog and collect $20 from Drew DeVault.

                                I just wanted to make a splash. I will certainly be more careful moving fwd, and not imperil your reputation. Any further than you yourself do all the time with all the “small computing” heresies I hear you’ve been spreading among the faithful, turning Microsoft customers into the reprobate worshippers of Alan Kay. Tsk, tsk. Cheers

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                    Hey, because minimax decided to play mod with my “gauche style,” and I suspect he just disagrees with what he believes to be my assumptions about what you said, I have some further, legitimate, serious questions. What can you say to substantiate your reduction of the “stream-of-consciousness, wall-of-text style” (to use minimax’s phrase with my improvement) post by which FRIGN “[clarified,] and … basically admitted to being a white nationalist,” in the torchlit marches link, above?

                    I’m honestly confused, I just don’t see how you get that from what he said. Can you, please, substantiate your reduction of what he actually said, to what you said he said?

                    Or, can you remove your unnecessarily politicizing post, in violation of pushcx’s general wishes for this forum? I will happily delete (or respect the deletion of) my replies to it, so that we’re “even.” But let it be known, I do wish substantive answers because I am sincerely curious about your opinion and understanding, and would rather not have the kabosh put on a polite and principled discussion. We’re all crustaceans here, instead of denizens of the orange site, because the discussion is of a much higher quality. At least, that’s what I’m here for, and I care deeply about that.

                    I should also add that I never would have been aware of any rift between certain members of this community were it not for one of your posts on almost the exact same subject several months ago, and while I have picked on specific points of contention regarding the “dogwhistles,” I was glad to receive the intelligence represented by your… saintly screeds… in this regard, both initially and now.

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                      I believe your characterization of FRIGN and some generally-applicable ad hominem arguments about suckless devs as a whole are accurate and appropriate. Furthermore, I do think it’s not unreasonable to maintain that the qualifier “definitely,” being dropped, would result in a statement of something that you are indeed saying. I encourage you to unequivocally embrace your own opinions, since greater accuracy and forthrightness about a diminished predicate (the implied-by-you “absolute” white-nationalism of suckless being reduced to a mere quality thereof) will remove the difficulty necessitating a disavowal of your own opinion in the first place.

                      It is an intellectual error to equate white nationalism with opposition to cultural marxism. The preeminent hypervisor over the various and factional containers of that latter opposition, Jordan Peterson, was interested when Zizek pointed out that during the passion of Christ, he said, “Why hast thou forsaken me?,” a point of contention in scholastic philosophy that, from Zizek’s point of view, cut at a certain root of Peterson’s misunderstanding of what communism was all about, in relation to the nominal subject of their appearance together recently. The fact that that seems unrelated, is because it is. However, it is definitely in the strictest possible sense of “relating to definition,” relevant to cultural marxism as such. All this is to say – there is such a thing as conversation, and it is stymied when an equation is made between unequal parts. I dont dispute the apparent co-location of nationalism and anti-Marxism, but this goes without saying, and I don’t dispute the divergent interests of “whiteness” (as concieved by the so-called cultural Marxists) and “culture” (read: “diversity;” as conceived by the self-styled neoreactionaries).

                      In the final analysis, we’ll all go along with some eventual victory in the political arena, and either condemn or glorify the ideologues of the suckless branch of post- simplicity accordingly, but that victory has not yet been obtained by either belligerent party in this technical and confounded arena. Until then, FRIGN is probably gonna go on with his agenda in every sense, the mods are gonna maintain their positions of relative non-interference, and you might remain willing to conflate ethics with techne. I shall not.

                      (The only remaining position is cultural Trotskyism!)

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                    To shed some light on this, this subdomain is used more or less internally to keep track of the patches for our different tools. Many people upload their patches on our site but often are not invested enough to keep them updated, mostly because it is a bit of work to test them by hand for each revision, so one of us had the great idea to automate the process and turn it into this backend. This is also an engagement for people who are looking to contribute but are not yet too trained in C or other tools. We now can point them to this domain and they can try to fix the “red” patches.

                    The subdomain name “gunther” stems from Mats Söderlund’s stage name “Günther”. His music was more of an inside joke (but I think it’s great!) and we had this subdomain even before the patches-tool was there as a joke. It was then later used to “test” this patch tool and then we just stuck with it. There are no personal subdomains on suckless.org and this isn’t one either.

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                      What do you make of Bitreich’s contention: “Suckless failed?” It’s at the top of their manifesto. :)

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                        Bitreich goes a different way, and I respect them for that. Back when Bitreich was formed, there were some problems in our organization that we adressed, but Bitreich goes to some extremes we wouldn’t want to follow and some of their points of criticism, frankly, still remain.

                        I don’t lose sleep over the Bitreich manifesto, though. In a way, I understand that they wouldn’t change it now. They are a more purist approach to the suckless idea, and thus they must reflect suckless in their manifesto to define their path.

                        From an absolute perspective, even suckless is considered “elitist”. I have the firm belief that our ideas can benefit many areas, and it’s legitimate to face some tradeoffs in that process to carry an idea to more people, increasing the “mindshare”. Bitreich cancels the goal of popularity from their target and prioritizes purism. To give an example, their website is only accessible via Gopher and not via HTTP. One can thus consider them “elitist” in regard to suckless. In an absolute perspective, it remains to be seen how many people even get to hear from their ideas, which is a shame, as they have many good ideas and write excellent software.

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                          Can you elaborate on the nature of those problems (in suckless)? Can you recommend in particular any Bitreich ideas or writings, if you have any good ones in mind, as distinct from what a suckless position/idea/implementation would be?

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                            Over the years we got quite substantial donations, and we decided in 2015 to form a legal entity (non-profit of course) to be able to receive them “legally”. It also helped us remove a single point of failure and let the servers and etc. run in the name of the entity rather than a single person.

                            Back then we discussed the role of the entity and had the idea that every contributor became a member of it, so all the processes within suckless became “ legally backed”. However, we unwillingly left some key people out in that process and I made some personal mistakes myself that I since have learnt from. To cut it short, it motivated some people to found another project with a different structure.

                            We discussed the issues with them and made changes. For example, we still have the legal entity but don’t try to bloat it into something that it isn’t. Legal representation is good, just in case, but it is unflexible. We now have a group of admins that all have equal power, and they make all the decisions and have the keys to everything. I may be first chair of the legal entity, but I am not the “leader” of suckless and any idea is first discussed with the admins, as it should be.

                            However, the split was already done and Bitreich had their own game set up in the meantime, and some (rightfully) didn’t forgive my mistakes. They also host conferences and have their own projects. They are doing fine and have cool ideas! As far as I’m concerned, there is no animosity between us and we benefit from each other.

                            To answer your question: Best take a look at their projects on their git to get an idea about what their interests and goals are compared to suckless. The coding standards themselves don’t differ as far as I know. One focus is tools for Gopher, but there is more than that to explore. :)

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                              Thanks

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                                You are always welcome.

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                      A good proof of concept that patch-based approach to plugins can work.

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                        Not necessarily by itself. The main problem I encounter is applying two or more patches to the same codebase, leading to a later one failing, just because of the order. For that to be properly portrayed, one would have to have some hyper-matrix or densly-connected graph to display which patch-orders work.

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                          And then it becomes exponential with the number of patches…

                          On the other hand, composable tools get none of these drawbacks.

                          But composable tools face the problem when you need to edit data structures that are held within the program memory (the windows). To expose these to the outside, heavy IPC mechanisms would be needed. Either a chatty protocol (socket with a window editing protocol?) or another (9P as used in wmii).

                          If your needs are not those of a X11 WM power user, 1~2 patches are probably fine.

                          If one is interested in a fully composable window manager, wmutils provides that.