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      proven themselves more than willing to censor content based on their own views and personal values.

      They still provide protection for gamergate & nazi organizations and will forward reporter’s information to those organizations.

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        Contingent upon a given organization not being the popular boogeyman of the week.

        But even if you think Cloudflare has an absolutely spotless record of providing service without bias, does them (or some other high-capital network mediator) being the centralize bulwark against popular silencing really seem like a good thing?

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            No, I’m claiming a particular subset of “nazis” were singled out, because they were more disliked by the public at large Cloudflare refused to serve them, as the post I responded to pointed out Cloudflare doesn’t have a problem with nazis per se, they have a problem with nazis that receive a certain level of public attention.

            And to reiterate, even if you think discontinuing service for whatever reason you think justifies Cloudflare doing that in the past it still confers that power to a for profit corporation that’s highly expensive to replace.

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              Downvotes feel inadequate in response to this. I want everybody to notice how this interaction went: Testing the waters with a vague statement that nonetheless picks a side; when called out, the response is to carefully toe the line of not making a surface-level endorsement of Nazis, while still asserting the pro-Nazi framing.

              Lately, I’ve felt powerless to affect lobste.rs culture. I don’t think handing out bans is going to do much, if anything. Lanny is not somebody where I feel there’s enough evidence of ill intent to justify that, anyway, and I’d have to talk it through with jcs - I can only remember one person ever being banned from lobste.rs for conduct. But in a mature, large community, handing out bans just doesn’t do very much to actually change the behavior of anyone who’s still there. When a community gets past a certain threshold, there’s inertia and it’s next to impossible to change the core things it cares about. We passed that threshold here a long time ago.

              But it also makes me angry to just give up. I think anything I can do to move the needle is probably as an ordinary community member, not as a moderator. I’ve got the sysop hat on for this post but that’s because I’m clarifying my stance, not because I’m taking action.

              As an ordinary community member, then, I urge you all - also ordinary community members - to notice what’s going on here, and to recognize the toxicity hiding underneath this kind of thing, and to work on your own strategies for calling it out when you see it. Wanting to be neutral doesn’t exempt us from this.


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                I don’t think either of those comments are pro nazi. I didn’t really feel like having this debate again, about cloudflare right or wrong, but if it’s a mod issue then I have to say I think that’s a very uncharitable read.

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                  I’ve seen this play out in a lot of places, heh. I am definitely less charitable towards it than I would have been a year ago, based on bitter experience. Generally if you encourage people espousing these views a bit, you can get them to say some clearly-awful stuff.

                  What I mean by asserting pro-Nazi framing is that Lanny’s second response goes out of its way to be skeptical of the idea that the Daily Stormer, the site Cloudflare recently refused to host, is run by Nazis. The Daily Stormer calls itself a Nazi group - they use that word for themselves. There’s no reason to be skeptical of that point, unless you’re trying to soften the discussion by backing away from the terminology that has everybody scared.

                  I think there’s a lot of valid things to say about who should be gatekeepers for the web. I agree with phessler, though: if that’s the point one wants to make, why pick violent extremists as the group to defend? Why try to condemn Cloudflare’s actions - which were only against that group, and which their leadership team made clear were not going to be a precedent - without any discussion of the actual gatekeeping topic?

                  I also want to note that this is somebody who, though they’ve been a member of lobste.rs for three years, has hardly ever posted.

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                    carefully toe the line of not making a surface-level endorsement of Nazis, while still asserting the pro-Nazi framing

                    There’s about as much “pro-Nazi framing” in my post as there is in saying “red, white, and black is a nice color scheme”. Nazi’s might agree but that’s about the extent of it.

                    goes out of its way to be skeptical of the idea that the Daily Stormer

                    Where? I quoted the word Nazi because a) the post I was responding to did so and b) I’m not crazy about using the term outside of early 20th century German political movement because I think reducing every form of racism of Nazism risks making racist organizations that don’t adopt Nazi symbolism seem less threatening.

                    If you had bothered to ask my thoughts about the The Daily Stormer I’d tell you I find their views disgusting, but I chose not to go out of my way to condemn them in my post because I would prefer to talk about the issue of centralizing DDoS mitigation strategies in a for-profit company with a questionable track record of impartiality. I also repeated, multiple times, a point I’ve yet to see a response to that even if you think Cloudflare is 100% justified in what they did, this is still an issue.

                    I didn’t realize I needed to add a disclaimer that I’m not a “nazi” to every post that makes any refrence to The Daily Stormer, and frankly I’m offended by what reads an awful like the veiled threat of being banned for failing to do so.

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                      You won’t be banned for that - I thought I was pretty clear that bans are virtually nonexistent here.

                      I honestly don’t know what else to say to this; I feel, usually, like I’m wasting my energy on lobste.rs lately. I don’t know whether I erred with regard to your particular post or not, and I’m just going to withdraw what I said above it because it’s really hard to care.

                      I have a general frustration because, increasingly, I can’t stay away from politics. I understand and respect this community’s choice to, for the most part, exclude it as a topic of discussion. But I don’t have the option to exclude politics from my life, and it’s beyond exhausting trying to exist in a social space where that isn’t a shared understanding. Good luck talking about technology; I’ll be over here trying to help my friends survive.

                      I apologize to any community members who felt this was an inappropriate topic of discussion.

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                        I’ll add that I appreciate when you’re around to help mod.

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                          Thank you.

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        It is concerning. Some other solution needs to be found.

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        Wormable IoT is in its infancy. I’m not as optimistic. Also, uncachable computational complexity attacks have barely been scratched by attackers. The largest sites are vulnerable to many of these still, because disruptors haven’t turned their attention to them really, and they don’t seem to pay very well in bug bounties.

        Cloudflare has even protected the websites of DDoS perpetrators, while selling services to mitigate them.

        Security firms are almost always profiteers. Just like infrastructure companies silently encourage unreliability that leads to support contracts. Cloudflare has few incentives for a safe non-customer internet. I wonder how many of their customers pay them only out of fear of an attack by zombie sex toys.

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          This reads like weak marketing for Cloudflare. It isn’t really technical, it’s from Vice. Boo.

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            Fair. I’ll skip the Vice link next time.

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              Vice is an ad company, so this is what they do. Their original content is just fluff to sell more ads. They literally make ads for other companies. That is their core business.

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              Yeah, sure, no more DDoS attacks when the whole internet is proxied through a gigantic monopoly proxy service. Okay, actually the whole internet except for Google/Facebook/Netflix/…, same deal.

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                call me when its run like torrent.

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                  I wish Cloudflare wouldn’t show up in the history books as a major force in centralizing the web.