1. 3
    How Much Do You Cost? finance job programming yegor256.com

  2. 77

    Wow, this article has more red flags than all the official buildings in Turkey combined. Just looking at this article, I’d guess that teamed.io is probably a terrible place to work at.

    I’m a passionate programmer, and I’ve built a game in my free time. I explore new languages, study the fundamentals of computer science and abstract math. I have no interest in developing crappy open source libraries for the sake of building a profile in languages and ecosystems that encourage billions of dependencies. My personal interests (that I’m passionate enough to spend my spare time) are too niche to bother write libraries for. And even if I did write open-source libraries, it’d get 2 stars on github due to the niche domain. I also personally think certifications are useless (no offense to people that think otherwise, just my personal opinion), and anything that fancies me is probably too unexplored to be given certifications for. In Stackoverflow you get far more reputation for answering beginner questions, which only demonstrate that you’re wasting your time on Stackoverflow trying to gain some rep by jumping on simple questions.

    All your heuristics are stupid metrics that can easily be gamed, and they ARE being actively gamed. The passionate programmer in me despises these metrics and has no interest in maximizing them.

    1. 19

      Half way in I was thinking that it was satire…

      1. 14

        I’m still not entirely convinced that it isn’t.

        Take a read at http://www.teamed.io/

        Tap into a distributed global network of the highest-caliber programmers, working under our control


        There are 70+ software developers working with us at the moment, but these guys are simply the best: [list of names]


        Quality of Code is Exceptional; It is the highest in the entire industry.

        Just scream parody

        1. 2

          From the liked list I took this one which does not seem to satisfy this blog posts criterias to begin with, since it hasn’t any really popular projects used by people nor high activity.

          1. 2

            Though he does write similarly obnoxious blog posts:


      2. 13

        Wait, you mean you can be a great programmer without spending time amassing tons of Internet Points?

        It was only a matter of time before we assigned vanity metrics, such as open source project popularity and SO reputation to have actual meaning. Nevertheless, it is still sad to read.

        I weep for the Internet of before where striving for fake points on websites was seen as meaningful only within the context of the site itself, and, beyond that, somewhat silly. You may counter with, “but, how will we know if so-and-so has skills?” That remains your problem, and not something you foist onto bullshit metrics.

        1. 7

          I think you paint an overly pessimistic view of contributing to the body of open source software and helping beginners.

          1. 21

            I’m sorry, you’re right, these things are undisputedly good by themselves (especially the way you put them). My objection is to the way these things are distorted by the likes of the author as well as those that game the metrics. Contributing to open source is a very noble activity, but spamming crappy libraries and saying “f* you and your problems, I did this for free!” for the sake of github stars is not. Helping beginners is good, but claiming you’re an expert because you were first to answer how to concatenate two strings, which earned you 150k points is not.

            My tone was probably overly defensive though.

          2. 6

            It’s quite telling of their culture that in their second point as to why open source projects are important they say:

            I often hear something like “my company doesn’t pay me for open source contribution and at home I want to spend time with my family.”

            They “debunk” the first part but they never again mention why some people would rather spend time with family.

          3. 55

            We all know what StackOverflow has but very few people (surprisingly few!) actively contributing to it. If your profile there is empty (or you don’t have one) I realize that you 1) don’t have any questions to ask and 2) you have nothing to answer.

            This I think is total bullshit for so many reasons. For example, for me it is difficult to write long long responses in english, as it is for almost any non-native speaker. Second is, that I don’t care about other people problems. I may have solution to my problems, and I am happy to share, but that doesn’t mean that I will spend my free time by solving other people problems. Also I can read the documentation, instead whining on stackoverflow, which is way too often full of noobs who can’t.

            1. 27

              Yeah, too bad you can’t get sweet sweet rep for looking stuff up in manpages.

              Well you I guess you can, you just have to sit on stackoverflow and wait for trivial questions to pop up so you can snipe them. It’s funny because that’s really the only way to amass points, since you’re not getting 500 points for poking around obscure areas.

              1. 7

                Well said. And I’d like to add, compare these two questions (chosen randomly after a 1 minute search, one can easily come up with much more dramatic examples): 1) http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3753869/how-do-i-concatenate-two-strings-in-java 2) http://stackoverflow.com/questions/42240533/infer-constraints-for-both-if-and-else-of-type-equality

                This a variant of bikeshedding. Simple and stupid stuff will be more accessible to more people. A tiny fraction of my stackoverflow reputation comes from answers that demonstrate I know anything substantial. If someone tries to maximize their rep, they should just superficially learn newer languages, and jump at crap questions.

              2. 38

                Oy vey where to start…I don’t have the time for a proper takedown, since some^Wmost parts are broken:

                This is the first and the most important characteristic of a software developer. Do you contribute to open source projects?

                Oh really? I thought it was something as mundane as does your code work properly and efficiently and can it be maintained by others. I suppose the author is a huge fan of the OpenSSL project.

                The second possible cause is that you work from nine till five, for food, without passion.

                Or, you know, if we are having to stomp around in somebody else’s litterbox we expect to get paid for the hassle. See also OpenSSL. Why the fuck do people keep equating passion with will do significant work for free? I’m a passionate dev–and one of many ways I do this is through community training and releasing my open-source software–but I’ve met other devs that are just as passionate that don’t.

                The last possible cause is that you don’t know what to write and where to contribute, which means lack of creativity.

                Certainly it couldn’t be because other things are on fire and finding the way of submitting a bugfix without causing more bugs or having to deal with crackheaded build systems is too expensive? Or that the software works well enough for our own use cases and we don’t have an Itanium with OpenVMS sitting around to test with?

                Thus, if your GitHub account is empty and your CV doesn’t position you as “an active contributor to Linux kernel” (yeah, why not?), I immediately lose interest.

                Ahahahahahaba okay. That kernel experience sure is relevant when you keep doing dumb web shit.

                For us this means that $100 will motivate a programmer from Karachi much stronger than the same $100 will motivate the same person, if she lives in San Francisco.

                Alternately, the person operating with lower margins is going to be more desperate for work. So, this could go either way.

                First, if you’re not asking anything there, you are not growing.

                Yeah, because there are no other places we could be learning.

                Thus, when I hear that you’re “experienced in MySQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle and SQLite” I realize that you know very little about databases.

                Yes, because a seasoned dev DBA on multiple systems somehow has been exposed to fewer cases of compatibility issues and has learned fewer principles that underlie database theory and has less experience doing performance comparisons and has seen a smaller set of features that are awesome. Riiiiight.

                When it is a blog, I pay attention to the amount of comments people leave for your articles.

                If I post a blog article about how all <X> should be barcoded and put into custody, I guarantee that this will get me a lot of comments. Similarly, it may be that allowing comments on a blog is just a feature that’s been disabled for security and privacy reasons.


                Ugh, this is just gross and unpleasant. I would think twice before working with this bozo.

                1. 28

                  So, for a payment I can survive with, I would have to move me and my family to a developing country or slum?

                  Yes, that’s exactly what I’m suggesting. If the quality of you (your code, your ideas, your software) is low - you deserve a slum. Period.

                  From the comments. This mentality tells me a lot about this person.

                  1. 2

                    This comment is the reason why I stopped reading Elegant Objects. Now I can’t read anything more from this author with good conscience.

                  2. 7

                    I think that gross is exactly the right word.

                    What a prefect encapsulation of the “let me tell you how the world works (in a way that confirms everything I want to believe about myself)” that Silicon Valley startups are stigmatized with (fairly or not, but probably fairly).

                    For us this means that $100 will motivate a programmer from Karachi much stronger than the same $100 will motivate the same person, if she lives in San Francisco.

                    Also–and I’ll admit this is a small thing–but why are she/her pronouns used in generic examples only bad cases by certain authors? It feels like they’re trying to cash in on pro-diversity sentiment while reluctant to actually be genuine about it.

                    1. 1

                      He is the pronoun for the first person. She is the pronoun for the second person. The bad example more often comes second. That would be my guess for an unintentional explanation. I’ve also seen it the other way, with the good example second, but also a she. Always he example, then she example.

                      Whenever I need an example with two persons, I name them Alice and bob, which orders the other way.

                  3. 35

                    Well, this is the first article I’ve read in a long time that actually caused me to say “fuck you” out loud at the computer, so it’s got that going for it.

                    There is so much wrong about this that I don’t even know where to start. Some of the best devs I’ve known are 9-5 devs. Lots of the best devs I know have no or minimal contributions to open-source projects. Contributing to StackOverflow these days is a lot harder than it used to be, so SO rep disproportionately means you’ve just been on the site awhile. (I barely use SO anymore, but I am pretty easily making 100 points or so a month, just because I was on the site early and answered some of the easy-but-popular questions. Someone just starting would have a much tougher time.) Plenty of people are legitimately experienced in multiple databases. Most people in our industry eschew certifications. Honestly, I end up disagreeing with close to 100% of his points.

                    But beyond that, the author has such a condescending, caustic attitude that it’s genuinely revolting. He’s not just making a point; he’s constantly calling people who disagree with him “lazy,” “afraid,” “absolutely useless,” and more, and espouses such binary thinking on all of these topics that I have to conclude persuasive discussions with him are borderline impossible.

                    So not only do I disagree with almost all of this article’s objective points, but I also think Teamed.io sounds like an godawful place to work, and think Yegor is an asshole. Otherwise, great article.

                    1. 6

                      Completely agree. I don’t know how this frontpaged, utter garbage.

                      1. 2

                        I don’t know how this frontpaged, utter garbage.

                        It has a score of 2 right now (only 3 other stories have under 3 points), but it’s currently #1 on the front page.

                        What’s going on here? Is there some sort of lobster equivalent of http://explainshell.com/ that could be used to debug the ranking algorithm?

                        Is it because there are so many comments? Oh hell, am I making it worse just by saying this?

                        1. 10

                          The ranking is called “hotness” and is calculated as the sum of the score of the story, any dupes merged into it, and (if the hotness mods on the tags don’t sum to a negative) half the score of the non-submitter comments.

                          With this story, it’s because there are many well-scored comments. Your comment (which has no upvotes as I’m writing this) is equivalent to half an upvote.

                      2. 2

                        Hear, hear.

                        My sympathies to those unfortunate enough to work for this clown.

                      3. 15

                        $100+ per hour we gladly pay to an expert who owns a few popular open source products; has a StackOverflow score above 20K; has certifications, articles, presentations, and maybe even patents.

                        $50+ per hour we pay to a professional programmer who has open source projects on his own or is an active contributor; has a StackOverflow score over 5K; is writing about software development; possesses a few certifications.

                        $30+ per hour we pay to a programmer who regularly contributes to open source code; is present in StackOverflow; has some certifications.

                        $15 per hour we pay to everybody else.

                        You have got to be fuckin' kidding me.

                        Teamed.io: They’re run by someone who comes off as a prick and their hiring heuristics are looney tunes, but at least they pay like shit.

                        1. 7

                          $100 per hour really isn’t even all that much for consulting work, but it’s their “high” range. Not a great sign.

                          1. 3

                            Exactly. They want someone who works like a dog on extracurricular nonsense like Stack Overflow ePoints and the conference circuit, and for that they’ll pay… low-end consulting rates? Hourly rates that normally come with a salaried position and benefits?

                            Good luck with that.

                          2. 1

                            So I’ve yet to decide if the company is an elaborate troll or if they’re just batshit fucking crazy, but I will say this: the developers that were highlighted that listed their location were all overseas, so I don’t think American developers are being targeted here.

                            If I billed 500 annual hours at $30 an hour I’d be in deep trouble. Insanely deep trouble. But if I lived in the Philippines, that’s a better proposition.

                            1. 2

                              the developers that were highlighted that listed their location were all overseas

                              I had the same thought, so I checked but “SC” probably means South Carolina which is in the US and Munich is maybe not SV-level of prices, it is still probably the most expensive city in Munich. Which is why said person probably has a day-job.

                              1. 1

                                Ah, thanks - must’ve missed those!

                                After reading more blog posts from this company, I’m sadly convinced this is completely true. :( what a world.

                          3. 11

                            On a happier note, I’m pleased to see the lobsters community heavily rejecting this.

                            1. 9

                              It is a real exam taken in a certification center, where you’re sitting in front of a computer for a few hours, without any books or Internet access, answering questions. Rather humiliating activity for a respected software developer? Indeed. And there is a high probability of failure, which is also rather embarrassing.

                              It is a very good sign, if you managed to go through this. If you’ve done it a few times, even better.

                              In Silicon Valley, certifications are often considered a negative signal on any resume. It may be an equally bullshit heuristic, but you probably rely on artificial exam results if you don’t have products or connections to support your credentials.

                              1. 6

                                In Silicon Valley, certifications are often considered a negative signal on any resume.

                                This is equally true outside the valley. Rightly or wrongly, this is literally the first time I’ve seen anyone suggest that your average developer cert is worth the paper it’s printed on.

                                1. 2

                                  This is equally true outside the valley. Rightly or wrongly, this is literally the first time I’ve seen anyone suggest that your average developer cert is worth the paper it’s printed on.

                                  Hm, I don’t agree. Everyone knows many of Microsofts “Certifications” are online-courses where they make sure you know the names of their products to sell. But people also know that Percona sells top-notch certifications and courses for mysql. At least where I usually work, people know the subtle differences.

                                  1. 4

                                    I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying that here, at least, a couple of thousand miles from the Valley, any cert listed on a resume is greeted with “lol this person puts certs on their resume”.

                                    As you say, vendor quality probably does vary and there probably is such a thing as useful certs, but the MS*C and “Certified PHP Guru!” cert mills et al did so much to hurt the perception of certs over the last couple of decades that I think there’s a widespread perception that they’re a negative signal. For that reason, even if you’ve paid for and earned an extremely useful cert you’re probably better off leaving the thing off and listing real accomplishments the knowledge you gained enabled you to achieve, because most people can’t be assed to dig through the mountain of garbage cert vendors to figure out if any of them are supposed to be any good.

                                2. 5

                                  In Silicon Valley, certifications are often considered a negative signal on any resume. It may be an equally bullshit heuristic, but you probably rely on artificial exam results if you don’t have products or connections to support your credentials.

                                  TBQH, I’d prefer a 2-days postgres course + certification over listening to 32 conf talks (2 * 8 * 30 minutes) about it anytime, because it can cover the whole product well.

                                  And if you are taking a 2-3 days course, why not pass a test and get certified?

                                3. 6

                                  Is this article a troll?

                                  1. 4

                                    It did a nice job of dancing on that line so I couldn’t decide. Until I saw those numbers. $15 an hour? Definitely a troll.

                                  2. 6

                                    It’s funny how the amount of bullshit in a programming blog seems to scale in proportion to the number of social media sharing buttons on each page.

                                    First, you’re too shy to share your code because it’s crap.

                                    Putting your code on a GitHub repo doesn’t mean it’s not crap, though. There’s a lot of open source code of marginal quality out there. Conversely, to play devil’s advocate, if you know you’re crap, at least you have a chance of wanting to improve.

                                    The second possible cause is that you work from nine till five, for food, without passion.

                                    Ceteris paribus, I would rather hire a completely passionless programmer who meets her deadlines and consistently produces quality code, than a programmer full of passion whose business outcomes are strictly inferior. When programmers talk about passion, they usually mean passion. When people hiring talk about passion, they almost always mean “susceptibility to exploitation”.

                                    It is a common practice to pay higher rates to those who live in more expensive countries. When I’m getting resumes from San Francisco programmers, their rates are $70+ per hour… [complaining about expensive devs]

                                    Guess what? Software engineers know this too, that’s why many of the best ones either emigrate to countries that pay more to developers or work at big multinationals that compensate better.

                                    First, if you’re not asking anything [on SO], you are not growing.

                                    Because clearly I don’t have coworkers to talk to, or official documentation to consult, or the wherewithal to solve my own problems by doing my own research (especially given the fact that the chances that my question is truly unique are vanishingly small). Where does this guy think the answers on Stack Overflow come from in the first place? Creation ex nihilo?

                                    Second, if you’re not answering, you simply have nothing to say.

                                    The negative incentives regarding answering substantiative SO questions (rather than farming upvotes) have been addressed by other commentators.

                                    My point is that the “years of experience” argument should be used very carefully.

                                    I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day. Thumbs up.

                                    It is a real exam taken in a certification center…

                                    Spare me the nonsense and just ask me for my SAT/GRE scores already, will you?

                                    BTW, some software developers even file patents in their names—why can’t you do this?

                                    This is clearly what the industry needs. More software patents!

                                    My experience tells me that the bigger the company and the higher the position in it—the further away you stay from the source code and from real technical decisions

                                    BSc, MSc, PhD… do we care? Not really.

                                    Spending 4 years qualifying for and getting a degree was far more of ‘taking a risk’/‘putting skin in the game’ than paying a few hundred dollars for some garbage certification that high schoolers compete for and pass for fun.

                                    1. 6

                                      First, you’re too shy to share your code because it’s crap.

                                      or any number of reasons you’re shy?

                                      In our projects we discourage any horizontal communications between programmers, and you won’t be able to get any help from anyone.

                                      Oh my.

                                      1. 5

                                        I will say that this pay scale seems very highly biased towards the business in question. All of the items that he suggests are helpful for earning more pay at his consultancy can be valuable. At the same time, his criteria are very focused on making his consultancy look good online, which isn’t bad, but doesn’t even begin to reflect the entirety of software development.

                                        1. 5

                                          However, if you’ve earned no certifications in your entire career, it is for one of the following reasons… First, you’re afraid to lose….Second, you don’t invest in your profile….

                                          Just the fact that the author confidently states that there are two possible reasons for something when there are obviously more hurts his credibility. Maybe there are no certifications for the tech stack you like to work in. Maybe you’ve had lots of success in job searches and certifications have never been mentioned.

                                          1. 2

                                            Maybe you think certifications can be gamed. Maybe you have worked with developers with them whose work you don’t respect. And maybe you don’t think they’re worth anything beyond the fee you paid to take the test.

                                          2. 5

                                            The few times ive resorted to SO my issue was so obscure nobody replied.

                                            1. 7

                                              Just… I really want to punch this guy in the dick.

                                              1. 4

                                                The author must be young with no family or friends to not being able to consider the lack of time because real life for not having OSS contributions to display.

                                                1. 4

                                                  However, this reason doesn’t sound logical to me. If you’re driving a more expensive car, we have to pay you a higher salary? The same with the place to stay. You’ve chosen the country that you live in. You’re using all the benefits of a well-developed country and you’re paying for them. It’s your choice. You decided to spend more money for the quality of your life—what does it have to do with me?

                                                  This hyper-capitalist “community ties don’t matter” mindset is so depressing. Even if I could move countries (not cities, not states, countries) to earn more from teamed.io, what about my family and friends? And the author picks an absurd strawman example of why someone wouldn’t want to leave–their precious $30 lunch. Sure, I’ll substitute my loved ones for hot dogs next time.

                                                  1. 3

                                                    You’ve chosen the country that you live in. You’re using all the benefits of a well-developed country and you’re paying for them. It’s your choice. You decided to spend more money for the quality of your life—what does it have to do with me?

                                                    Is it really a choice though? Does being born and raised in the country I live in counts as a choice?

                                                    1. 3

                                                      You could probably move to the Philippines to be able to afford to live off these $15 an hour they would like to pay you.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        You probably couldn’t - it turns out immigration law in most countries is quite hostile to that sort of thing. I’ve been looking into it recently due to the political situation…

                                                    2. 3

                                                      However, if your CV says that you’re a “10-year seasoned architect” with zero open source contribution—this means that you’re either lying about that ten years or you’re absolutely useless as an architect.

                                                      This has to be a joke. How can our industry be like this?

                                                      1. 3

                                                        I have no idea how I have never seen this guy’s blog before, and he does seem a bit crazy (apparently, not all of his satire may actually be satirical in nature), but it certainly has some interesting points on software development.

                                                        What stroke my mind is the difference between this and GitLab’s model of extra pay to those remote workers that like spending extra, which goes as far as paying a different salary based on different cities in the same metro area (sounds like they might even pay you more if you live in a good neighbourhood of a city, too, I have no idea how that’s even legal).

                                                        1. 3

                                                          I would hope that blog entry is satire!

                                                          Interestingly about gitlab, it looks like they change salary considerably (nearly £5K!) between the two major cities in Scotland. In practice I know both cities have lots of companies offering the same salary. So their pay calc’s would probably put them at a disadvantage.

                                                        2. 3

                                                          Wow, that article was so many levels of bad. I had started to prepare a point by point rebuttal but instead I’m just going add this company to my list of companies to avoid and move on.

                                                          The rhetoric on their website is pretty cringe inducing.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            Sigh. I actively hate stackoverflow.

                                                            Whenever I have ended up there courtesy of a google search I usually find “Question has been closed by moderators as ….” insert stupid reason N.

                                                            So I don’t have, and will not have a stackoverflow profile. (I might, can’t actually remember).

                                                            I have a linuxquestions and a reddit and a lobsters profile, but I won’t do stack*.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              Whenever Google brings me to a LinuxQuestions thread, I can be sure that the people writing answers will be even more clueless than the people bringing the questions, and that the thread will trail off without actually accomplishing anything. Tired old anecdotes aside, SO has a system that lets people find decent answers more often than pretty much anything else.

                                                            2. 3

                                                              Wow, what a pile of summoned BS. According to the author once should enslave his brain and wrists to his desktop for at least 20 years, in order to even think of having a good salary. I call this extremism.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                “First, if you’re not asking anything there, you are not growing”

                                                                I’ve asked a few questions on stackoverflow, but I’ve asked far more of work mates, and looked up so many man pages. I’ve also grown by looking up stackoverflow answers and just googling. Also just programming in new areas and giving and receiving merge request feedback.