This is where it gets philosophical. Sure you can’t go hiking or do parenting in that time. However people playing games, reading books, solving puzzles and even building entire parallel careers in their nominally work time aren’t unheard of.
It depends on the business, though. I know people with couple moderately-successful iOS apps where yes, they do some support nd bugfixing, but can do it on their own schedule and the money comes it “on its own”.
Startups are a particular kind of product company that is high-pace. But small-businesses can also exist.
And it failed! Because we did it the wrong way. But Amy Hoy has done it the right way, and teaches how, which is why I linked to her stuff.
Also note that VC-backed startups are very definitely NOT the way to get decent working hours as a founder. It’s totally possible to work decent hours (<40) as an employee, as I’ve done at last three jobs.
Government jobs tend to be 40 hours or less. State government in my state has a 37.5 hour standard. There is very occasional off-hours work, but overtime is never required except during emergencies – and not “business emergencies”, but, like, natural disasters.
I’m surprised that tech workers turn up their nose at government jobs. Sure, they pay less, but the benefits are amazing! And they really don’t pay too much less in the scheme of things.
How many private sector tech jobs have pensions? I bet not many.
Yeah. I hadn’t used Windows since Win 3.1, until I started working for the state (in the Win XP era). I still don’t use it at home, but all my dayjob work is on Windows, and C#.
Not sure about this one. When you speak about pay, you also have to count all the advantages going with it.
In addition, they usually push you out at 5pm so your hourly rate is very close to the contractual one.
Most people who are complaining that they pay less are the tech workers who hustle hard in Silicon Valley or at one of the big N companies. While government jobs can pay really well and have excellent value especially when considered pay/hours and benefits like pensions, a Google employee’s ceiling is going to be way higher.
There’s a subreddit where software engineers share their salaries and it seems like big N companies can pay anything from $300k–700k USD when you consider their total package. No government job is going to match that.
Pros: hours, and benefits. Less trend-driven development and red queen effect. Less age discrimination (probably more diversity in general, at least compared to Silicon Valley).
Cons: low pay, hard to hire and retain qualified people. Bureaucracy can be galling, but I imagine that’s true in large private sector organizations, too.
We’re not that behind the times here; we’ve avoided some dead-ends by being just far enough behind the curve to see stuff fail before we can adopt it.
Also, depending on how well your agency’s goals align with your values, Don’t Be Evil can actually be realistic.
I will say, I once did a contract with the Virginia DOT during Peak Teaparty. Never before in my life have I seen a more downtrodden group. Every single person I talked to was there because they really believed in their work, and every single one of them was burdened by the reality that their organization didn’t and was cutting funding, cutting staff, and cutting… everything.
They were some of the best individuals I ever worked with, but within the worst organization I’ve ever interacted with.
Contrast that to New York State- I did a shitton of work for a few departments there. These were just folks who showed up to get things done. They were paid well, respected, and accomplished what they could within the confines of their organization. They also were up for letting work knock off at 2PM.
When you think about what “profit” is (ie taking more than you give), I think it’s really hard to defend any for-profit organization. Somebody has to lose in the exchange. If it’s not the customers, it’s the employees.
That’s a pretty cynical view of how trade works & not one I generally share. Except under situations of effective duress where one side has lopsided bargaining leverage over the other (e.g. monopolies, workers exploited because they have no better options), customers, employees and shareholders can all benefit. Sometimes this has negative externalities but not always.
Profit is revenue minus expenses. Your definition, taking more than you give, makes your conclusion a tautology. i.e., meaningless repetition.
Reciprocity is a natural law: markets function because both parties benefit from the exchange. As a nod to adsouza’s point: fully-informed, warrantied, productive, voluntary exchange makes markets.
Profit exists because you can organize against risk. Due to comparative advantage, you don’t even have to be better at it than your competitors. Voluntary exchange benefits both weaker and stronger parties.
Profit is revenue minus expenses. Your definition, taking more than you give, makes your conclusion a tautology. i.e., meaningless repetition.
I mean, yes, I was repeating myself. I wasn’t concluding anything: I was merely rephrasing “profit.” I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here aside from fishing for a logical fallacy.
a tautology. i.e., meaningless repetition.
Intentionally meta?
Reciprocity is a natural law
Yup. No arguments here. However, reciprocity is not profit. In fact, that’s the very distinction I’m trying to make. Reciprocity is based on fairness and balance, that what you get should be equal to what you give. Profit is expecting to get back more than what you put in.
Profit exists because you can organize against risk.
Sure, but not all parties can profit simultaneously. There are winners and losers in the world of capitalism.
So, if I watch you from afar and realize that you’ll be in trouble within seconds, come to your aid, and save your life (without much effort on my side) in exchange for $10, who’s the one losing in this interaction? Personally, I don’t think there’s anything morally wrong with playing positive-sum games and sharing the profits with the other parties.
For an entry-level developer position, we want either a batchelor’s degree in an appropriate program, with no experience required, an associate’s degree and two years of experience, or no degree and four years of experience. The help-desk and technician positions probably require less for entry level but I’m not personally acquainted with their hiring process.
I would fall into the last category. Kind of rough being in the industry for 5 years and having to take an entry level job because I don’t have a piece of paper, but that’s how it goes.
For us, adding an AS (community college) to that 5 years of experience would probably get you into a level 2 position if your existing work is good. Don’t know how well that generalizes.
Okay cool! I have about an AS in credits from a community college I’d just need to graduate officially. Though, at that point, I might as well get a BS.
I don’t, but I’m very envious of my family members who do.
One time my cousin (works for the state’s Department of Forestry) replied to an email on Sunday and they told him to take 4 hours off Monday to balance it off.
That said, from a technological perspective I’d imagine it would be quite behind in times, and moves very slowly. If you’re a diehard agile manifesto person (I’m not) I probably wouldn’t recommend it.
EDIT: I guess it’s really what you value more. In the public sector, you get free time at the expense of money. In the private sector, vice versa. I can see someone who chases the latest technologies and loves to code all day long being miserable there, but for people who just code so they can live a fulfilling life outside of work it could be a good fit.
I’m going to be honest here: I’ve been working around 35-40 hours for the last year and I am still incredibly burnt out. I think it’s the context in which I work right now, but I cannot seem to shake it. I’ve tried long weekends and I have a week off in about a month, but the workplace itself is slowly killing me.
I work for a huge company with very little ownership and a ton of politicking. I’m not cut out for that type of work.
The only reasonable option is the consultant one but requires quite a bit of previous experience and social/business skills to sell your expertise well.
Something similar would be becoming a freelancer focusing on some aspect: either your niche skills or your experience.
Moving to a country with a lower cost of living also helps to decrease the hours of work. Of course not for everyone but it allows you to work an average of 2/3 hours per day and have enough to save quite a bit.
Did the author ever run a business?
The most realistic chance of working less than 35 hours is slacking off somewhere as a salaried employee.
Slacking usually requires you to be in n office, so you’re still working
This is where it gets philosophical. Sure you can’t go hiking or do parenting in that time. However people playing games, reading books, solving puzzles and even building entire parallel careers in their nominally work time aren’t unheard of.
Exactly, when I ran my own startup, it was like working at 2 jobs. Always something to do, fix, research, discuss, plan, etc.
It depends on the business, though. I know people with couple moderately-successful iOS apps where yes, they do some support nd bugfixing, but can do it on their own schedule and the money comes it “on its own”.
Startups are a particular kind of product company that is high-pace. But small-businesses can also exist.
He did found a startup in the early 2000s.
And it failed! Because we did it the wrong way. But Amy Hoy has done it the right way, and teaches how, which is why I linked to her stuff.
Also note that VC-backed startups are very definitely NOT the way to get decent working hours as a founder. It’s totally possible to work decent hours (<40) as an employee, as I’ve done at last three jobs.
Government jobs tend to be 40 hours or less. State government in my state has a 37.5 hour standard. There is very occasional off-hours work, but overtime is never required except during emergencies – and not “business emergencies”, but, like, natural disasters.
I’m surprised that tech workers turn up their nose at government jobs. Sure, they pay less, but the benefits are amazing! And they really don’t pay too much less in the scheme of things.
How many private sector tech jobs have pensions? I bet not many.
I work in a city where 90% of the folks showing up to the local developer meetup are employed by the city or the state.
It’s taken a lot of getting used to being the only person in the room who doesn’t run Windows.
I feel like this is pretty much the same for me (aside from the meetup bit).
Have you ever worked with windows or have you been able to stay away from it professionally?
I used it on and off for a class for about a year in 2003 at university but have been able to avoid it other than that.
Yeah. I hadn’t used Windows since Win 3.1, until I started working for the state (in the Win XP era). I still don’t use it at home, but all my dayjob work is on Windows, and C#.
Not sure about this one. When you speak about pay, you also have to count all the advantages going with it. In addition, they usually push you out at 5pm so your hourly rate is very close to the contractual one.
Most people who are complaining that they pay less are the tech workers who hustle hard in Silicon Valley or at one of the big N companies. While government jobs can pay really well and have excellent value especially when considered pay/hours and benefits like pensions, a Google employee’s ceiling is going to be way higher.
There’s a subreddit where software engineers share their salaries and it seems like big N companies can pay anything from $300k–700k USD when you consider their total package. No government job is going to match that.
Do you work in the public sector? What’s it like?
I do.
Pros: hours, and benefits. Less trend-driven development and red queen effect. Less age discrimination (probably more diversity in general, at least compared to Silicon Valley).
Cons: low pay, hard to hire and retain qualified people. Bureaucracy can be galling, but I imagine that’s true in large private sector organizations, too.
We’re not that behind the times here; we’ve avoided some dead-ends by being just far enough behind the curve to see stuff fail before we can adopt it.
Also, depending on how well your agency’s goals align with your values, Don’t Be Evil can actually be realistic.
I will say, I once did a contract with the Virginia DOT during Peak Teaparty. Never before in my life have I seen a more downtrodden group. Every single person I talked to was there because they really believed in their work, and every single one of them was burdened by the reality that their organization didn’t and was cutting funding, cutting staff, and cutting… everything.
They were some of the best individuals I ever worked with, but within the worst organization I’ve ever interacted with.
Contrast that to New York State- I did a shitton of work for a few departments there. These were just folks who showed up to get things done. They were paid well, respected, and accomplished what they could within the confines of their organization. They also were up for letting work knock off at 2PM.
Agreed. There’s no such thing as an ethical corporation.
Do you mind sharing the minimum qualifications of a candidate at your institution? How necessary is a degree?
I’m asking for a friend 😏
What about B corps?
No, not even them.
When you think about what “profit” is (ie taking more than you give), I think it’s really hard to defend any for-profit organization. Somebody has to lose in the exchange. If it’s not the customers, it’s the employees.
That’s a pretty cynical view of how trade works & not one I generally share. Except under situations of effective duress where one side has lopsided bargaining leverage over the other (e.g. monopolies, workers exploited because they have no better options), customers, employees and shareholders can all benefit. Sometimes this has negative externalities but not always.
Then I guess we must agree to disagree 🤷🏻♂️
Profit is revenue minus expenses. Your definition, taking more than you give, makes your conclusion a tautology. i.e., meaningless repetition.
Reciprocity is a natural law: markets function because both parties benefit from the exchange. As a nod to adsouza’s point: fully-informed, warrantied, productive, voluntary exchange makes markets.
Profit exists because you can organize against risk. Due to comparative advantage, you don’t even have to be better at it than your competitors. Voluntary exchange benefits both weaker and stronger parties.
I mean, yes, I was repeating myself. I wasn’t concluding anything: I was merely rephrasing “profit.” I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here aside from fishing for a logical fallacy.
Intentionally meta?
Yup. No arguments here. However, reciprocity is not profit. In fact, that’s the very distinction I’m trying to make. Reciprocity is based on fairness and balance, that what you get should be equal to what you give. Profit is expecting to get back more than what you put in.
Sure, but not all parties can profit simultaneously. There are winners and losers in the world of capitalism.
So, if I watch you from afar and realize that you’ll be in trouble within seconds, come to your aid, and save your life (without much effort on my side) in exchange for $10, who’s the one losing in this interaction? Personally, I don’t think there’s anything morally wrong with playing positive-sum games and sharing the profits with the other parties.
For an entry-level developer position, we want either a batchelor’s degree in an appropriate program, with no experience required, an associate’s degree and two years of experience, or no degree and four years of experience. The help-desk and technician positions probably require less for entry level but I’m not personally acquainted with their hiring process.
I would fall into the last category. Kind of rough being in the industry for 5 years and having to take an entry level job because I don’t have a piece of paper, but that’s how it goes.
For us, adding an AS (community college) to that 5 years of experience would probably get you into a level 2 position if your existing work is good. Don’t know how well that generalizes.
Okay cool! I have about an AS in credits from a community college I’d just need to graduate officially. Though, at that point, I might as well get a BS.
Thanks for helping me in my research :)
I don’t, but I’m very envious of my family members who do.
One time my cousin (works for the state’s Department of Forestry) replied to an email on Sunday and they told him to take 4 hours off Monday to balance it off.
That said, from a technological perspective I’d imagine it would be quite behind in times, and moves very slowly. If you’re a diehard agile manifesto person (I’m not) I probably wouldn’t recommend it.
EDIT: I guess it’s really what you value more. In the public sector, you get free time at the expense of money. In the private sector, vice versa. I can see someone who chases the latest technologies and loves to code all day long being miserable there, but for people who just code so they can live a fulfilling life outside of work it could be a good fit.
I’m going to be honest here: I’ve been working around 35-40 hours for the last year and I am still incredibly burnt out. I think it’s the context in which I work right now, but I cannot seem to shake it. I’ve tried long weekends and I have a week off in about a month, but the workplace itself is slowly killing me.
I work for a huge company with very little ownership and a ton of politicking. I’m not cut out for that type of work.
Time for a new job?
Yes, I would tend to agree
The only reasonable option is the consultant one but requires quite a bit of previous experience and social/business skills to sell your expertise well.
Something similar would be becoming a freelancer focusing on some aspect: either your niche skills or your experience.
Moving to a country with a lower cost of living also helps to decrease the hours of work. Of course not for everyone but it allows you to work an average of 2/3 hours per day and have enough to save quite a bit.
Source: it’s mah life