This point is being made over and over again across multiple sites. I don’t understand how it really matters. It’s implemented in the most pragmatic way and is what most users with actually need. Advanced users will either proactively install Python in their preferred method, or when they see they have to get it from the Windows Store then they’ll instead get it in their preferred way. None of this is particularly bad. I guess if you aren’t on the latest Windows 10 it won’t be available, but then it’ll not be available on Windows 7 since there isn’t a store.
It is not installed by default, so other applications will continue to bring their own Python. Is there a possibility to install a Windows Store item as a dependency?
I only use Windows at work. My laptop has at least three Python installations. Maybe more I have not discovered yet. Build chains and applications often bring their own.
I like the sound of this change. I’ve been writing and sharing batch files among wo-workers for decades, because that’s what’s there, and that’s what works for all Windows users. Even Powershell provides more installation and configuration friction than I’m usually willing to support for my co-workers.
If I can tell non-technical co-workers or family to install the Python app and double click a Python script to do something, that will be sweet.
Exactly! I think people sometimes get lost in all the hate and can’t actually evaluate what any given piece of news means for people outside of their bubble.
We believe that the Microsoft Store package is perfect for users starting out with Python, and given our experience with and participation in the Python community we are pleased to endorse it as the default choice.
Its not. The existing https://python.org page suits this purpose just fine.
This whole article is misleading, and reads like an ad for the Microsoft Store. Python is not in Windows 10 anymore than VLC is. This hearkens back to the crapware days, where you have all these shortcuts preinstalled to the Start Menu. Not to actual programs, but links to a purchase or download page.
Just preinstall Python properly. Windows has included a C Sharp compiler for at least 10 years, this isnt really that different. Dont need to worry about Python becoming out of date, because that same worry can be felt with any preinstalled software like .NET Framework.
this comment reads like you’ve either not searched “How do I install python on windows” or you are experienced enough to already know the correct answer and have forgotten the tangled web of out of date tutorials that led you there. This isn’t aimed at you, it’s aimed at beginners. Now a “How to Code in python” tutorial can say:
open cmd.exe
type python
the store will open
click install
you’re done
I would have been very happy for that when I was a kid.
As for preinstalling, that just leads to ancient versions sticking around for years. there’s a good reason why mac and rhel are both deprecating the system python
I have to restrain myself from commenting on the usual crop of Microsoft shaming comments whenever anyone posts anything they had a part in.
I’ve been hearing Python educators for years cite the difficulty of getting Python properly installed and running on Windows as a severe barrier to entry for non technical people who want to learn to program.
As to why not bundling it with Windows by default, it pays to remember that Windows has a MUCH longer tail than most technical folks even think about in the enterprise and commercial worlds where there are still legions of Windows XP machines floating around and even connected to the internet.
I’ve been hearing Python educators for years cite the difficulty of getting Python properly installed and running on Windows as a severe barrier to entry for non technical people who want to learn to program.
you speak the truth. Getting a dev environment set up is tuned for experienced devs. Not surprising, but it is frustrating when you want to help someone.
Related: I remember something like this being exceptionally helpful in Debian or Ubuntu at one stage: the default config was set up so that, any time you were at an interactive tty and you typed a command that didn’t exist but was available from the repos, it’d run a little thing that suggested to apt-get the package on stderr and quit with an error.
So I could just blindly type “python” or “gcc” or “irb” or whatever, and it’d either run it right away or trivially tell me where to get it. This interacted really nicely with the fact that almost every programming language under the sun is in the repos for Debian. ❤
I believe it was originally developed for/in Ubuntu and got backported to Debian at some point. But I’m unable to confirm that. (Ever try searching the web for ‘command-not-found’?)
I always uninstall it on sight; I prefer apt-cache search -x /<name-of-program>$.
hold on, don’t you just go to the official python website, click “downloads”, download the windows installer, then run the installer and click next a bunch of time? Yes it’s more involved that “apt install python3” but the steps are simple and intuitive enough.
OK, I’ll bite. What do you do once you get to the download page? You’re a beginner. Which one should you get? Why are there two significantly different versions of Python given equal weight on that page? Maybe the older one is more stable and safer so you should get that?
OK so maybe you heard you need to get Python 3, so you click through to the latest stable release page (for Windows, btw) … except on this page you see a bunch of files: Gzipped source tarball … macOS 64-bit installer … a bunch of Windows installers…. So which one to get?
Now, let’s compare: you’re reading a Python tutorial, it says to type python and press Enter in the command line to open the REPL … you do that, and Windows guides you through installing it, with the latest and greatest package straight from the Windows Store. Call me crazy, but this is a big win for people getting started with Python.
While Python continues to remain completely independent from the operating system, every install of Windows will include python and python3 commands that take you directly to the Python store page.
For people that don’t like BS: cinst python; refreshenv; pip install virtualenv
Well, what do you do when you don’t have Chocolatey installed? The Store approach is completely valid, and applicable for many more users. It doesn’t preclude or impact anyone with a preference for Chocolatey, or other preferred method of installing Python.
Maybe you need a serious package manager, but not everyone does. Beginners probably would prefer an easy way to get started, and what MS is providing seems much easier than what you’re suggesting with Chocolatey.
Maybe you’ve just been at this too long to remember what being a beginner is like :)
Based on the article, it seems like it is not in the distribution of Windows 10 OS. It’s in the Windows Store.
This point is being made over and over again across multiple sites. I don’t understand how it really matters. It’s implemented in the most pragmatic way and is what most users with actually need. Advanced users will either proactively install Python in their preferred method, or when they see they have to get it from the Windows Store then they’ll instead get it in their preferred way. None of this is particularly bad. I guess if you aren’t on the latest Windows 10 it won’t be available, but then it’ll not be available on Windows 7 since there isn’t a store.
It is not installed by default, so other applications will continue to bring their own Python. Is there a possibility to install a Windows Store item as a dependency?
I only use Windows at work. My laptop has at least three Python installations. Maybe more I have not discovered yet. Build chains and applications often bring their own.
I like the sound of this change. I’ve been writing and sharing batch files among wo-workers for decades, because that’s what’s there, and that’s what works for all Windows users. Even Powershell provides more installation and configuration friction than I’m usually willing to support for my co-workers.
If I can tell non-technical co-workers or family to install the Python app and double click a Python script to do something, that will be sweet.
Exactly! I think people sometimes get lost in all the hate and can’t actually evaluate what any given piece of news means for people outside of their bubble.
Its not. The existing https://python.org page suits this purpose just fine.
This whole article is misleading, and reads like an ad for the Microsoft Store. Python is not in Windows 10 anymore than VLC is. This hearkens back to the crapware days, where you have all these shortcuts preinstalled to the Start Menu. Not to actual programs, but links to a purchase or download page.
Just preinstall Python properly. Windows has included a C Sharp compiler for at least 10 years, this isnt really that different. Dont need to worry about Python becoming out of date, because that same worry can be felt with any preinstalled software like .NET Framework.
Shame on you, Microsoft.
this comment reads like you’ve either not searched “How do I install python on windows” or you are experienced enough to already know the correct answer and have forgotten the tangled web of out of date tutorials that led you there. This isn’t aimed at you, it’s aimed at beginners. Now a “How to Code in python” tutorial can say:
I would have been very happy for that when I was a kid.
As for preinstalling, that just leads to ancient versions sticking around for years. there’s a good reason why mac and rhel are both deprecating the system python
Thank you.
I have to restrain myself from commenting on the usual crop of Microsoft shaming comments whenever anyone posts anything they had a part in.
I’ve been hearing Python educators for years cite the difficulty of getting Python properly installed and running on Windows as a severe barrier to entry for non technical people who want to learn to program.
As to why not bundling it with Windows by default, it pays to remember that Windows has a MUCH longer tail than most technical folks even think about in the enterprise and commercial worlds where there are still legions of Windows XP machines floating around and even connected to the internet.
you speak the truth. Getting a dev environment set up is tuned for experienced devs. Not surprising, but it is frustrating when you want to help someone.
Related: I remember something like this being exceptionally helpful in Debian or Ubuntu at one stage: the default config was set up so that, any time you were at an interactive tty and you typed a command that didn’t exist but was available from the repos, it’d run a little thing that suggested to
apt-getthe package on stderr and quit with an error.So I could just blindly type “python” or “gcc” or “irb” or whatever, and it’d either run it right away or trivially tell me where to get it. This interacted really nicely with the fact that almost every programming language under the sun is in the repos for Debian. ❤
It’s still there in the version of Ubuntu running on my VPS.
Sweet. I wasn’t really expecting they’d have removed it, but it’s been a few years since I checked. (Switched to Fedora, then a Mac.)
yeah that’s their cnf command-not-found package. highly underrated.
Here is the homepage/source code for that little utility for Ubuntu. https://launchpad.net/command-not-found
I believe it was originally developed for/in Ubuntu and got backported to Debian at some point. But I’m unable to confirm that. (Ever try searching the web for ‘command-not-found’?)
I always uninstall it on sight; I prefer
apt-cache search -x /<name-of-program>$.Yeah, modern search engines are the fucking worst.
hold on, don’t you just go to the official python website, click “downloads”, download the windows installer, then run the installer and click next a bunch of time? Yes it’s more involved that “apt install python3” but the steps are simple and intuitive enough.
[Comment from banned user removed]
why would you search for that when you can simply download and install it?
https://python.org/downloads/windows
Because you might not know where to go to download it.
It’s literally linked from the home page…
OK, I’ll bite. What do you do once you get to the download page? You’re a beginner. Which one should you get? Why are there two significantly different versions of Python given equal weight on that page? Maybe the older one is more stable and safer so you should get that?
OK so maybe you heard you need to get Python 3, so you click through to the latest stable release page (for Windows, btw) … except on this page you see a bunch of files: Gzipped source tarball … macOS 64-bit installer … a bunch of Windows installers…. So which one to get?
Now, let’s compare: you’re reading a Python tutorial, it says to type
pythonand press Enter in the command line to open the REPL … you do that, and Windows guides you through installing it, with the latest and greatest package straight from the Windows Store. Call me crazy, but this is a big win for people getting started with Python.[Comment removed by moderator pushcx: Please don't relitigate whatever this old argument is here.]
[Comment removed by moderator pushcx: Please don't relitigate whatever this old argument is here.]
Can’t agree more !
For people that don’t like BS:
cinst python; refreshenv; pip install virtualenvWell, what do you do when you don’t have Chocolatey installed? The Store approach is completely valid, and applicable for many more users. It doesn’t preclude or impact anyone with a preference for Chocolatey, or other preferred method of installing Python.
you do:
iwr https://chocolatey.org/install.ps1 | iex; cinst pythonThe store approach is useless for anything serious. You need to have serious package manager in the system.
Maybe you need a serious package manager, but not everyone does. Beginners probably would prefer an easy way to get started, and what MS is providing seems much easier than what you’re suggesting with Chocolatey.
Maybe you’ve just been at this too long to remember what being a beginner is like :)
Not coming any time soon: pip install windows .
thx god for that :)