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    I post this and now Windows 11 is suddenly released. Sorry for jinxing us all.

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      The jab at Apple not supporting old devices is extremely misplaced.

      You can jab at Apple for a lot, overpriced for the spec, really cringy marketing, unification and walled-garden-ness of the devices.

      But I’m hard pressed to think of iOS, MacOS or even Apple as pushing people to upgrade rapidly.

      iPhones get updates for roughly 5 years (where it’s contemporary standardised on 2) and the latest MacOS release officially supports laptops from 9years ago.

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        The latest Windows (before 11), and the latest Linux distros, support machines from long before 2012. Machines from around 2010 weren’t actually bad. They’re perfectly fine now, maybe with a new SSD to replace the HDD. I think the jab at Apple is perfectly warranted; they’re worse at supporting old devices than the competition.

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          I semi-disagree. I’ve seen 2 i3s from ~2010 now (with enough RAM) where a fresh install of Win10 simply doesn’t work well enough to properly do anything without resorting to insults. CPU spins up for no apparent reason, everything takes ages to load (not an SSD, but also no real read/write numbers according to procman). It’s simply on the cusp of being unusable. But yeah, I’d say ~2012-13 or an i5 and it worked fine. (SSD usually is the difference between “a bit slow” and “I can’t believe this system is 10y old”)

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            Sounds like you agree, as long as the laptop from 2010 isn’t using an i3? i3/i7 laptops from 2010 are still pretty good. I agree obviously that the laptops which were slow already in 2010 are probably too slow for 2021 for normal laptop use cases.

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                SSDs can make a difference, I’m not debating that. But sometimes the difference is not the disk. Like, you install Linux on a spinning rust disk and it is just “slow” as in: slow to boot up, stuff takes one second to start. But an SSD would speed it up from “a bit annoying” to “wow, like new”. What I meant was: It is so slow that booting takes 2 minutes (fresh install), opening explorer takes 15 seconds. Then it’s not the disk, as it was running fine on Linux. Weird rare phenomenon that I never bothered to investigate.

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              Windows 10 is also 6.4 years old at this point. The closest equivelant MacOS version was El Capitan which supported “everything that can run Mountain Lion” which itself officially supported MacBooks from 2008, that’s 7 years for the weakest device in the line.

              However, El Capitan is no longer supported as of 2019, so- you could have an 11 year old laptop which was still officially supported, or a 13 year old desktop with support (the extreme case).

              Linux is a special beast all unto itself, but I’m pretty sure the mainstream distros are not supporting hardware that’s 11 years old with the default desktops.

              My enthusiast grade laptop from that period had 2G of RAM and a dual core “2.0GHz” CPU with a pitifully small L1 cache (which would not fit modern GPT partition tables) and a shamefully inadequate IPC for modern workloads. I’m sure even running the background processes on a modern GNOME desktop would kill it.


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                All of this is unnecessary erasure of fully working platforms.

                Our digital music teaching rooms are powered by AMD Phenom II x6 1045T and Intel Core2Quad Q9550, running Win10. Multiple cameras and instruments are combined via OBS and output 1080p streams to Skype, without ever dropping a single frame.

                Going a generation younger, AMD FX processors are still around a bunch of family members and friends. 8-Core 4GHz processors working wonders to edit even 4k video and the like.

                On the extreme side, my FreeBSD Laptops run a QX9300 and P8800. YouTube 1080p60 runs without dropping frames, for writing office documents and programming both are more than adequate.

                I don’t expect Microsoft to tailor their experience to my platforms, but these computers still pull their weight for workloads they are intended and those workloads did not magically get harder to run and 1080p video won’t suddenly become harder to run after 2025. Declaring these platforms dead after 2025 by dropping Win10 support and locking them out of Win11 is wasteful to say the least.

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                  Youtube 1080p60 is quite frankly impossible on FreeBSD on a machine from that era due to the limited/force_disabled nature of hardware acceleration in modern web-browsers on non-Windows/Mac platforms, the advent of new codecs which are not supported by your GPU or iGPU (since that CPU doesn’t have one) and the software render performance being somewhere between dogshit and awful on even very powerful computers from 2017.

                  Are you lying to make a point? or do you have some magic that I’m not aware of?

                  Personally I run a Xeon 1505Mv6 which has x264 hardware decoding but Linux still renders youtube on CPU causing 1080p60 video to bog down an entire core, not sure it skips frames, but this is not a weak CPU; in fact it matches your CPU in TDP: https://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/742/Intel_Core_2_Extreme_Mobile_QX9300_vs_Intel_Xeon_E3-1505M_v6.html

                  Your broader point about workloads not getting harder completely ignores Spectre and Meltdown, but ok, however it’s also the case that successive software updates assume more about the performance of your computer.

                  The same task you could do in 1995 on a 1995 computer takes many orders of magnitude more power to do now; a fantastic example is MSN vs Skype vs Teams; where the functionality hasn’t changed but it’s still able to absolutely crush my machine which is somewhere in the order of 20x more powerful than the machine I ran MSN on.

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                    It’s almost certainly GPU accelerating the video encode/decode. Those were high-end desktop platforms for the time and you can easily slap in a new modern GPU.

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                      But it’s not supported in firefox or chrome unless you’re on windows or macos

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                        And they’re running Windows.

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                          Then we’re talking passed each other a bit.

                          The parent said that he gets longer life out of BSD when my experience can be the opposite. (Due to browser support limitations, mostly)

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                      I’m honestly confused where you get this impression from. On a 1080p screen, my T500 has no problem with 1080p60 content and my x200 on it’s 1280x800 monitor. I can totally whip out a camera to show. Of course the GMA 4500 MHD does not support hardware decoding. But using MPV / YouTube-dl the P8800 in my x200 has no problem playing back 1080p60 videos and since libdav1d, my QX9300 also properly handles AV1 playback.

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                        Then you’re not really watching YouTube. You’re downloading a video and playing it back (you can probably argue the point that this is what YouTube’s website does anyway) but the broader point I was making is that those hacks are necessary because Linux/BSD are not well supported.

                        You might get away with a 10 year old Windows machine but you have to sometimes hack around Linux- because the browser support isn’t there.

                        I’m basically nerd sniping at this point though, I was just dumbfounded by the repeated assertions that “everything is fine” when my new systems don’t perform as well as I should expect.

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                          Then you’re not really watching YouTube.

                          I mean I click a video in my subscription box and a Firefox Plugin automatically opens MPV. It’s pretty seamless.

                          But I understand your point now. The default case is not supported any more by these older platforms. With that I totally agree, they don’t have to be. That’s why I wrote:

                          I don’t expect Microsoft to tailor their experience to my platforms

                          …because that’s my job as a user wishing to continue the use of these machines. A machine of that age has to be setup for it’s designed workload. My point is it can be setup for that workload: programming, office documents and media consumption in my case. Declaring these platforms dead is what I have a problem with, as long as this is possible. Microsoft’s desire to make even CPUs as recent as a FX-8370 obsolete by 2025 is simply a crime.

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                            I agree with your sentiment entirely.

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                    “The extreme case” is kind of on point. It’s easy to find examples of favorable or unfavorable support from any manufacturer. Those of us here have lived experience though, which tends towards an average.

                    I’ve owned four Macs. Here’s how it went:

                    • 2001 iMac G3 could be upgraded to 10.3 (2003.) Officially it supports 10.4 (2005) but that’s a bit disingenuous since it shipped on DVD and the device didn’t have a DVD drive.
                    • 2005 iMac G5 could be upgraded to 10.5 (2007.)
                    • 2007 MacBook could be upgraded to 10.7 (2011.) This one hurts the most because the hardware is still so capable, even now.
                    • 2017 MacBook Air is still supported.

                    I think it’s fair to say that Apple’s support is gradually lengthening, so it’s possible people who haven’t followed them for a long time have a more favorable impression than those of us who bought G5s. That said, and this really applies to any manufacturer, encouraging upgrades that remove or reduce functionality stretches the definition of support. That 2007 MacBook really ended on 10.6 along with Rosetta, and currently the 2017 device runs Mojave for 32 bit applications.