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    “Forced Labor”? Oh… they mean slavery!

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      In a slavery, the ultimate threat is the threat of violence. You can beat a disobedient slave. You can beat the gulagees or the prisoners in reeducation camps.

      What is going on here is that some people who have terrible starts at life, were given an opportunity to make their lives relatively better. But these opportunities are relatively worse from the position of a western developed worlders. So these westerners then complain about the from-their-view-poorer conditions.

      Do abuses exist, yes. But I know a teenager who works at a retail store who’s not realising his full leverage as given by the laws. His parents also let it slide, because they think it’s good for him to learn ‘how it is like in the real world’. So from a full-on lawyer perspective, one could say the guy is being abused.

      The workers have to work a low paying job with bad condition because her financial situation, the relative wealth of her birth country and other factors reduce her negotiative power. But despite any of that, she’s better off working in these poor conditions with low pay than she would be back at her village. She is better of being given this opportunity.

      The labour of developed countries back when the countries were developing had to endure such conditions too. And their leveraged that to give their children and themselves better lives in time. Every society has got to go through this process. If you try to impose enforced better pays and conditions, the employers will move to another country or another labour pool, and these poor workers will lose their chance to improve their lives. The surplus of poor people will always ensure that there’s some people ready to be ‘abused’ for $2 a day, because the alternative is even worse.

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        I think your comment could be a valuable historic source in the future.
        It shows pretty well the kind of rationalization “western developed worlders” do of the oppression they foster and benefit from. Teenagers abused in retail stores learn “real world” just as girls that were abused in Nigeria.

        Just because criminals do it, it’s not something we should teach.

        In a slavery, the ultimate threat is the threat of violence.

        Some consider tortures as a form of violence. And starvation is a form of torture, you know?
        Just because it’s inflicted by a community instead of a deputed soldier, it does not means it’s less violent.

        She is better of being given this opportunity.

        You should really read more carefully.
        These people pay for this “opportunity”. They literaly take loans on their house to pay for it.
        And, it turns out, they pay to be enslaved. The product does not match the promises. They are tricked.

        Because you know, when private people have the power to remove your civil rights if you don’t do what they want, you are a slave. And if they can remove your civil rights when you get pregnant, you are a slave. And they can force you to pay for a job, you are a slave…

        Every society has got to go through this process. […]
        The surplus of poor people will always ensure that there’s some people ready to be ‘abused’ for $2 a day..

        Honestly I find this argument pretty disgusting.
        Exploting people weakness just because you can is not something that have a place in a civil world.

        As someone who claim to “fight for freedom”, you should really consider what kind of freedom you are supporting. The freedom of western consumers? The freedom of western IT companies? Who’s the freedom you care about?

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          It shows pretty well the kind of rationalization “western developed worlders” do of the oppression they foster and benefit from.

          So how do you rationalise all the stuff you consume that were produce through this process?

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            Creating a demand is not inherently wrong. How companies choose to go about fulfilling the demand is where the concern is. One thing consumers do have is the power to choose which companies they spend their dollars with. Some companies are better than others.

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              Why should I rationalise?

              I actively minimize the blood footprint of my purchease. And I only buy what I really need. Often used.

              Also I actively teach people to be “Ads Adverse”: the more people try to convince me to buy something the less I’m going to buy it. Culture, knowledge and critical thinking are the key to freedom.

              Indeed each marketing campaign convey (at least) two message:

              • one is specific to one product: you need this shit to be happy (whatever it means to you)
              • one is general capitalist propaganda: you are the shit you own

              Both are ridicously false! But propaganda’s goal is always to make the oppressed internalize the oppression so that they cannot challenge it effectively. As you can see in yourself, it’s pretty effective.

              I do not rationalise the means of oppressions that oppress me, you and Malasian immigrants.
              I study them. And I actively fight them through culture. I make them evident.

              I do not think that the solutions to the bloody issues of Capitalism can be found in free market.
              That’s groupthink. The solutions are in culture, knowledge, understanding.

              Meanwhile I call people with their name, be it “murderer” at Uber and Tesla, “slavist” at Apple and so on…

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                I actively minimize the blood footprint of my purchease.

                Do you?

                Because the very fact that you are capable of replying to me, shows that you have not minimised your blood footprint.

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                  I know it might seem impossible to people used to represent all values through the same unit, but in fact you can optimize several dimensions at once.

                  Also, in a complex system you have leverage, multipliers and so on to consider, so that you can have a zero (or even negative) sum over a dimension while having non-zero magnitudes all over the other dimensions.

                  But if all this math seems too complex for you, consider I have legally free access to several internet connected public and private computers that I did not buy and I do not own.
                  I let you as an exercise to guess how it is possible… :-)

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              many employers also confiscate and hold workers’ passports in order to keep them from leaving an untenable situation

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                Work makes freedom - as you point out.

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                  This might be the cleanest Godwin call-out I’ve ever seen. I tip my hat to you.

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                  The surplus of poor people will always ensure that there’s some people ready to be ‘abused’ for $2 a day

                  I know that I won’t convince you to change your worldview by typing into a text box on a website where you have put your very worldview into your username, but please consider the possibility that poverty is intentionally created and sustained to maintain a cheap labor market.

                  What would that look like? Who would benefit? What would they say to keep it going? Does that imaginary world match what you see in the real one?

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                  Any suggestions on what we in the west should do to help put an end to this? Would it do any good to reduce all new electronics purchases to a minimum and go to some trouble to get more life out of old or malfunctioning devices? Or would that merely be a hollow, symbolic gesture?

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                    Abolish capitalism

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                      The best we can do is to spread knowledge of the blood footprint of consumerism.

                      It’s naive to think that not buying from a multinational company exploiting poors is enough to annoy them.

                      But if you actively spread knowledge of the pain the cause to other humans, if you publicly blame them, you are going to be a problem for them.
                      And if you manage to create a culture that put shame on people mindlessy buying gadgets as status symbols, if you attack the assumptions of their propaganda/marketing, you will force them to address the issue.

                      If they cannot kill you for cheap, they will fix their supply chains.