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  1. 73

    Honestly, for a general-purpose laptop recommendation, it’s hard to recommend anything but the new ARM MacBooks. […] I just hate the cult of personality around built around a ThinkPad that only exists as a shadow in a cave.

    Do you want to tell him or shall I?

    1. 17

      Tell me about what?

      My recommendations are tempered by things like Mac OS (every OS sucks in its own unique ways), but they’re the fastest laptops you can get, get actual all-day battery life without ceremony, are lightweight, and have good build quality. This is based around actually using one as my everyday laptop - Apple really has made significant improvements. Unless someone has other requirements (i.e pen, x86 virt, etc.), they’re good all-around.

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        The quote is just kind of funny to read since Apple products have been almost synonymous with fanboyism and cultish followings for decades, while the thinkpad crowd has levied that exact same criticism.

        I mean personally I don’t actually disagree with you, I think Apple makes good hardware and “thinkpad people” have gotten just as bad as “apple people” in terms of misguided brand loyalty. It’s just funny because what was quoted feels like very much a role reversal in a very long standing trend.

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          Maybe it’s just my circles but I don’t see Apple fanboyism as much as I see “anti-Apple” fanboyism.

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            That’s because you hang out on sites like Lobsters.

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              Honestly, the “Apple fanboys” are nowadays mostly one of those things that “everybody knows” despite not really bring true. Sure, you can find the occasional example, but you’re more likely to find a handful of mildly positive comments about Apple and then a hundred-comment subthread shitting on both Apple and “all these fanboys posting in here”. And basically any thread about laptops will have multiple subthreads of people loudly proclaiming and getting upvoted and lots of supportive replies for saying Apple is evil, Apple’s hardware and software are shit, everybody should run out and switch to Thinkpads.

              Which is just kind of amusing, really.

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            The quote is just kind of funny to read since Apple products have been almost synonymous with fanboyism and cultish followings for decades

            Yes, and I think the M1 is a prime example of the hype, further boosted by Apple’s following. The M1 is a very impressive chip. But if you were only reading the orange site and some threads here, it is many generations ahead of the competition, while in reality the gap between recent AMD APUs and the M1 is not very large. And a substantial amount of the efficiency and performance gap would be closed if AMD could actually use 5nm production capacity.

            From the article:

            Honestly, for a general-purpose laptop recommendation, it’s hard to recommend anything but the new ARM MacBooks.

            Let’s take a more balanced view. The M1 Macs are great if you want to run macOS. ThinkPads (and some other models) are great if you want to run Windows or Linux.

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              Do the competitors run fanless?

              I’m happy with my desktop so I don’t have a stake in this game, but what would appeal to me about the M1 non-Pro Macbook is the fanless heat dissipation with comparable performance.

              1. 7

                I mean are there actually laptops that are running super long like the M1? Even back with the Air for me Macs having reliable long batteries was a huge selling point compared to every other laptop (I know they throttle like crazy to do this, but at least the battery works better than other laptops I have owned) . I think Apple deserves loads of praise for shopping laptops that don’t require you to carry your charger around (for decent time frames relative to competition until maybe super recently)

                Full disclaimer: despite really wanting an M1’s hardware I’m an Ubuntu user so…

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                I don’t have any brand loyalty towards thinkpads per se but rather the active community of modifications and upgrades. There are things like the nitropad (from nitrokey) that is preinstalled with HEADs and has some minor modifications or refurbishing as well as many other companies are selling second hand thinkpads in this way, but I think nothing beats xyte.ch (where I got my most recent laptop).

                The guy is an actual expert and will help you chose the modifications you want (for me I wanted to remove bluetooth, microphone, put an atheros wifi so I can use linux-libre, change the CPU to be more powerful, also the monitor changed to 4k and there were other options also.. like maybe putting an FPGA like fomu in the internal USB of the bluetooth or choices around the hard drives and ports you want) after choosing my mods and sending him 700$ he spent a month doing all my requested changes, flashing libreboot/HEADs and then fedexed it to me with priority.

                This was my best online shopping experience in my life and I think this kind of stuff will never exist for apple laptops.

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                  Hmm fanboyism. Must fight… urge to explain… why PCs are better than laptops. :-p

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                    Oh, I know all about the dumb fanboy shit. I’ve at least outlined my reasoning as pragmatic instead of dogmatic, I hope.

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                  I just really like running Linux. Natively, not in a VM. I have a recent P14s running Void Linux with sway/wayland and all the hardware works. I know there’s been some effort to get Linux working on the new M1 chips/hardware, but I know it’s going to be mostly out-of-the-box for modern Dell/Thinkpad/HP laptops.

                  With Microsoft likely jumping ship over to ARM, I’m really hoping Linux doesn’t get completely left behind as a desktop (laptop) OS.

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                    It seems like some people mistake the appreciation of quality Apple hardware for a cult.

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                      It may seem like that, but isn’t. Of the two Macs I currently own, one is in for repair (T2 crashed, now won’t boot at all) and one has been (CPU would detect under voltage and switch off with only one USB device plugged in). Of the ~80 Macs I’ve ever deployed (all since 2004), five have failed within two years and a further three have had user-replaceable parts DOA. This doesn’t seem like a great strike rate.

                      BTW I’ve been lucky and never had any of the recall-issue problems nor a butterfly keyboard failure.

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                        While I strongly prefer my Dell Precision (5520), I haven’t really had the same experiences as you.

                        I have a work laptop which is a MacBook and gets a bit toasty - but I use it every day and have not had any issues so far.

                        My own laptop was a 2011 MacBook Pro and it took spilling a glass of wine on it to kill it, prior to that there were no problems. Once I did break the keyboard by trying to clean it and had to get it repaired. Maybe it was getting slow and there was some pitting on the aluminium where my hands laid (since I used it every day for 6 years). It died in 2017.

                        Those are the two MacBooks I owned

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                        There might be some selection bias at work, but I have been following Louis Rossmann’s youtube channel and I absolutely do not associate Apple with good quality.

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                          Louis Rossman has a vested interest in repairable laptops as he runs a repair shop and Apple is actively hostile to third-party repairs.

                          Not saying what Apple does is good for the consumer (though it’s often why resale value of their laptops is high)- but I would assume that Louis is the epitome of a biased source.

                        2. 5

                          I have used MacBooks from 2007-2020. I had two MacBooks with failing memory, one immediately after purchase, one 1-2 months after purchase. I also had a MacBook Air (pre-butterfly) with a failing key. I had a butterfly MacBook Pro with keys that would often get stuck.

                          The quality of average is very average. I think the number of problems I had with MacBooks is very average for laptops. However, Apple offers really great service (at least here in Western European countries), which made these hardware issues relatively painless to deal with.

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                            Apple doesn’t merely make good hardware, it makes Apple hardware, in that its hardware is often different from the mainstream. Butterfly keyboards, for example, or some of their odder mouse designs. it’s possible to appreciate good hardware without thinking Apple’s specific choices are worth buying, even if you concede they’re good implementations of those choices you dislike.

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                          What good is a hardware with stellar performance and battery life if you are encouraged to get locked in a walled garden software ecosystem?

                          Is it not worth making a tradeoff today and wait a year or two before non-Apple manufacturers started making ARM laptops with Linux support?

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                            What good is a hardware with stellar performance and battery life if you are encouraged to get locked in a walled garden software ecosystem?

                            The software I use most often on the various laptops I have – both personal and employer-issued – is a list of web browsers which are cross-platform, (Chrome for work, Firefox for personal), chat apps which are cross-platform, developer tools that are either cross-platform (Emacs, Docker) or just platform-flavored versions of things that have equivalents elsewhere (terminal emulators, for example), the MS Office suite (not available on Linux), and then a mix of “whatever the platform’s utility app for this is” (mail client, music player, etc.).

                            I’m not sure exactly how I am “locked into” anything by this. I also don’t have to go out of my way to try to avoid some sort of “walled garden”.

                            And the other advantage, so often unspoken in these discussions, is that while with some companies I am merely a user of services/products, with Apple I generally am actually the customer, and the business consists of offering goods and services to me in exchange for money. Compared to business models where I am part of the product, with my usage subsidized by harvesting and selling great gobs of data about my habits, I literally could not care less that Apple runs an app store some people dislike.

                            1. 1

                              I have used all three major OSes for multiple years each, and easily find Linux to the most free of all (Windows comes second, thanks to WSL). I can easily run a server declaratively configured and have my development machine use the exact environment, for instance, which is what not being locked into a walled garden software ecosystem can naturally afford one.

                              Outside of brand and marketing, Apple’s ecosystem holds very little appeal to me (and I used to champion it, whilst owning a Macbook Pro, iPhone, Apple Watch, AirPods and what not). As a hobbyist programmer, I found it beneficial in the long run to leave Apple’s garden.

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                                I used various flavors of Linux as my main desktop OS for quite a few years, starting around 2001. I don’t anymore.

                                Partly this is because, at the end of the day/week, I no longer want to hack unless it’s on my personal projects. I especially don’t want to be doing it just to get my computer to work. But that was the Linux desktop treadmill: things are broken in different slightly-annoying ways, and there’s some asymptotic approach to non-brokenness, but it never gets there because there’s always a complete backwards-incompatible rewrite of the relevant software before it reaches actual polished usability.

                                Meanwhile, the older I get the more I realize that the FSF/RMS threat model is not my threat model, and largely is not a relevant threat model anymore. The things I worry about and want to be protected from are things they don’t worry about and seem to think I deserve to have inflicted on me if ever I perform insufficient due diligence.

                                Apple’s stuff works for me. Do they have an app store? Yes. Do I have to use it to get software onto my computer? No. Do the tradeoffs they’ve made strike me as reasonable in balancing the need to protect most non-technical people while making sure I can still get my work done? Yes.

                                YMMV, but presenting this in the kind of absolute/objective terms you have does not work.

                            2. 5

                              Note that linux/windows laptops on ARM already exist, and are not competitive with Apple’s M1 macs in terms of performance. It’s certainly the case that Apple’s efficiency is some combination of their chip design and ARM. While I’m not super-well informed, I would say I think it’s Apple’s own work contributed more to the relative improvement over most laptops than ARM itself.

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                              Honestly, for a general-purpose laptop recommendation, it’s hard to recommend anything but the new ARM MacBooks

                              Yeah, but I can’t get those for 100-200 Euros. I don’t think I’d ever buy a first-hand Thinkpad, and I’m not sure how the market looks like for used Macs. As a student, this is something I consider (my first Laptop was a X60 for 33 Euros off Ebay. The reason I don’t use it any more is that the charger broke).

                              1. 9

                                +1, I haven’t been a student in decades, but new laptops are either too expensive, or not worth the money :)

                                The easy serviceability of ThinkPads means that there’s a big secondary market for traders who buy ‘used’ laptops in bulk, piece together the working components, and resell them. But to be honest, the same goes for any laptop model designed for corporate use and easy repair.

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                                I’m a longtime Thinkpad user, and I can’t say he’s wrong, but he also doesn’t give them their due.

                                I use Thinkpads first of all because of the trackpoint; I really dislike trackpads, and as a proficient touch-typist I dislike taking my fingers off the home keys. Also, the keyboards have consistently been among the best laptop keyboards. Next, one thing to really like about Thinkpads has always been that replacement parts for the things that most need to be replaced are easily available and usually stay the same over several generations of models in a line. Also Thinkpads are designed to be easy to open and swap parts. And of course the build-quality is usually quite good even if there have been some problems. The main reason that people are loyal to Thinkpads is that they (so far) have always been able to rely on these things being true.

                                Need a new laptop? If the above criteria are important to you, a Thinkpad is a safe choice.

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                                  I do indeed like the TrackPoint as I pointed out - but I miss the flexibility trackpad gestures provided. I never developed the home row style, but that’s probably because I learned touch typing on my own. The keyboard is nice, but not nice enough I’d consider it to the exclusion of other things.

                                  Parts commonality isn’t really that common across generations. Ultimately, ThinkPads are the same as any other business laptop like a Latitude - if not worse in regards to things like service time. (Oh, and do enjoy your Wi-Fi card whitelist.)

                                  And sure, serviceability is nice, but I can’t think of a time I had to open up a laptop other than the self-inflicted (i.e I bought a laptop without a wi-fi card). Machines are pretty reliable outside of normal wear and tear. By the time you do need to upgrade/repair, the system is like seven years old, massively obsoleted, new parts won’t likely fit, and you’re better off replacing it anyways.

                                  (A funny irony of the X220 hagiography crowd is that I think the X240/T440 improved serviceability for things someone might actually want to do, like blowing out dust or replacing the fan - just remove the bottom cover. But oh no, it made changing RAM harder!)

                                  As mentioned in the article, I buy ThinkPads because they’re predictable - but they’re not a panacea.

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                                    I switched from an MBP to a thinkpad last year because I wanted linux. I have the same touchpad gestures that I used on mac working with libinput-gestures. Of course it needs manual setup and of course the touchpad isn’t nearly as good, but it works.

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                                      same touchpad gestures that I used on mac working with libinput-gestures

                                      That’s not nearly the same, it does discrete events in response to a complete gesture, which is not really good.

                                      GNOME Shell, KDE Plasma, and (thanks to me :D) Wayfire natively support actual continuous workspace swipes, where you actually move between workspaces with your fingers and can “play” with them like on macOS.

                                      And pinch-to-zoom/rotate and various swipes generally work in applications on Wayland, support is very common in GTK apps, e.g. you can pinch in EoG, Evince, Epiphany, etc. And in Firefox as of recently!

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                                    Is all the repairability still true for all of the ThinkPad series? Or are we still mostly talking about the T series?

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                                    Oh, and fn belongs to the left of control. Apple and Lenovo get this right, why can’t anyone else?

                                    Well, because it’s wrong. Fn should be to the right ;)

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                                      They’re both unused here. Ctrl goes on Caps and that’s the end of it.

                                    2. 14

                                      I’ve never heard anyone who is not a Linux user “overrate” ThinkPads.

                                      For us Linux users it’s just a safe default choice, but even without Linux, ALL other brands I have used in the last 10 years were a little to a lot worse - so that’s why I’m staying with ThinkPads.

                                      But I think the author didn’t think about this case of business users…

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                                        Why does Fn belong on the left of Control?

                                        I feel the opposite. Doubly so if you’re running not-macOS. I use control much more frequently than Fn and it’s much easier to hit if it’s all the way at the end.

                                        1. 2

                                          Control being left of Fn means you need less reach to press it along with most other keys, which is particularly important a) for people with small hands (like me) and b) on a laptop where there isn’t always a control key on the right.

                                          I don’t mind needing to use two hands to use Fn + another key, but that would be annoying with control.

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                                            Honestly, Control belongs immediately outboard of Space: it’s the most commonly-used modifier, so it should be typed with the strongest fingers. Then Alt, then Super and finally Hyper, with Function past that if present.

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                                              On a Mac Command is used more frequently, and that is right next to space, but I agree on non-Macs it’d make sense for Control to be there.

                                          2. 1

                                            I prefer it on the right. It may be to do with hand size/shape or just bring used to it. What Lenovo gets right is making it configurable, so the placement is not really an issue.

                                          3. 9

                                            Oh, and fn belongs to the left of control. Apple and Lenovo get this right, why can’t anyone else?

                                            I know some people have strong opinions the other way; ThinkPads allow configuring this in the BIOS – a little quality of life detail that matters a lot to some people.

                                            I never use the TrackPoint, but I like that it’s there as it means I have discrete buttons (I don’t care that they’re on the top). I really dislike the integrated buttons that almost all other laptop ship with. I know a lot of people like the trackpad on macs, but personally I hate it. “Right click” with two fingers fails often enough (or is triggered accidentally!) to be highly annoying, and other gestures are even worse. And the cursor often moves while clicking.

                                            I mostly just use ThinkPads because it’s easy; I know they will work on Linux most of the time, the design doesn’t change that fast or from iteration to iteration. I know what to expect, which is boring and the way I like it. Researching other laptops is a lot of work and I have more important and/or fun stuff to do.

                                            When my x270 broke last year (slipped with laptop in backpack, fell on my back) I ended up getting a E585, just because someone had it on sale nearby for a good price. It’s not my most favourite model (battery life and size of the x270 was much better), but it works well enough.

                                            When I had a Dell XPS 15 for work I started having annoying screen flickering problems; not the only one with those problems on that specific model it turned out, which seemed to be some sort of BIOS issue(?) Of course, Dell will spend no effort on fixing this, no matter if it’s a BIOS bug or not. I ended up just returning the laptop to work and buying the x270 myself.

                                            The job before that I had the XPS 13 “developer edition” which came pre-installed with Ubuntu, and had some issues with that too. Curiously, I had fewer issues after I reinstalled the machine to Arch Linux; it actually worked pretty well after that 🤷 I think the pre-installed Dell drivers on the Ubuntu LTS didn’t quite work correctly or something, I tried removing those to just use the mainline Linux ones, but the kernel was too old or whatnot and it left me without WiFi (and no Ethernet port…) It was ridiculously time-consuming to get that fixed.

                                            tl;dr: ThinkPads are the most boring predictable laptops I know; which I consider a good thing.

                                            I agree with the sometimes ridiculous amount of ThinkPad wankery on /r/ThinkPad and the like btw. Peter Bright at Ars Technica was also a big ThinkPad fanboy and every move Lenovo made on ThinkPads made was extensively reported (whereas little reporting was done on other laptops, unless it was proper big news like the M1) until he left.

                                            1. 2

                                              Thank you, that’s better than the annoyed response I was going to write. Thinkpads are just decent predictable linux laptops that work well. With an external battery, my x270 has excellent battery life, and 16GB of RAM, I’m happier with it than with something that would force me to use mac OS.

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                                                I had that too with a work laptop. Then I replaced it with Manjaro and everything worked as expected.

                                                Seems like it’s Ubuntu having those issues on the XPS (15).

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                                                  Take Peter Bright’s reporting with a grain of salt. I also enjoyed his journalistic interests… until one day I saw that ArsTechnica had yanked all of his articles off their site. You should just search duckduckgo for his name. I’m not sure that he has made the best choices in life.

                                                  1. 2

                                                    They’re not yanked. The articles are still there, but his author page is gone and the primary author is now listed as “ars staff”. It’s not hard to find them, though; they’re still up.

                                                    I’m very glad he’s not free to do what he was convicted of doing any longer. Not sure I’d call it relevant to a discussion of whether or not Thinkpads are overrated.

                                                  2. 1

                                                    The job before that I had the XPS 13 “developer edition” which came pre-installed with Ubuntu, and had some issues with that too.

                                                    Running Linux on the one I had (a 9360 from 2017, so it’s been a bit) was ultimately just kind of a bad experience. Weirdly terrible performance, display glitches, network weirdness. Which feels like a risk I take every time I burn money on a laptop that’s not a ThinkPad. It might be ok, but it’s a lot of money to spend not to be sure that it’s going to be ok.

                                                    ThinkPads have been, in truth, kind of a mixed bag for most of the time Lenovo’s owned the brand, and they’ve made some bad design decisions along the way - the keyboard is ok now, it used to be a lot better, for example. But they remain a known quantity for my purposes in a way that I’m not sure anything else really does. This is in no small way because laptops generally are a really sad and infuriating class of product, where the priorities and interests of the manufacturers pretty much only align with mine by accident.

                                                  3. 4

                                                    Alternative perspective:

                                                    Lenovo and the new Linux desktop experience

                                                    I wrote this about the X220 and X1C4. But I have had an X1C7 for 2 years, and X1C8 as my soon to upgrade. Same comments mostly stand!

                                                    1. 4

                                                      Also want to put in a plug for the Trackpoint II keyboard. Probably the only laptop where you can get a replica of the keyboard for desktop ergonomics. Combine with an 3M LX550 laptop stand and any wireless mouse, and you can quickly convert the laptop into an ergonomic desktop with eye-height monitor and webcam.

                                                      Keyboard: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboards-and-mice/keyboards/KBD-BO-TrackPoint-KBD-US-English/p/4Y40X49493

                                                      3M stand: https://amzn.to/3fzHCwb

                                                    2. 4

                                                      I’ve used laptops since I was a pre-teenager. I’ve used Dells, Acer, Sony, Apple, Thinkpads, and I like the Thinkpads more by far because:

                                                      • Community. Huge helpful community everywhere (IRC, Reddit, Discord, forums)
                                                      • Cheap, manual upgrades. Ask in any community about a replacement; you can get the part anywhere.
                                                      • Linux support. Install it, and everything works.

                                                      The Macbooks are awesome. And yes, they might be better than the Thinkpads, but I still like Thinkpads more. And I’ve only owned two, an X220 and a T490.

                                                      I agree they are overrated, but that comes with reasons, probably more subjective, but either way, we use what works for us and what we enjoy using more.

                                                      If you enjoy using a Macbook, Surface, or whatever, go for it.

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                                                        I have been using thinkpads with Linux for 18 years now, from a r40 or x24 to a t470. Cheap second hand, good support, great keyboard.

                                                        M1 seems nice but I don’t need it. Same for 5G, 500bhp cars, 4K selfie camera. I may enjoy them on day. I don’t need it tomorrow.

                                                        Going back to my stuff.

                                                        1. 3

                                                          as an X series lover (own an x201, x220) i have to mostly agree w/ the poster

                                                          what keeps me off of my x220 is the screen

                                                          my 2020 mbp 13 just has too good of a screen, from not just the DPI and brightness angles, but the biggest is the aspect ratio, 16:9 is just far too cramped

                                                          my only (somewhat) modern thinkpad has been my first gen thinkpad x1 tablet (which, on it’s own was way better than a surface) but the cpu on that (an m7) was just still too anemic

                                                          the first thinkpad since to get my attention is the x1 nano now that they’ve dropped a bit in price, but these new ARM chips are just far too compelling…. an x1 nano w/ an ARM chip with m1 performance and battery life sounds like the perfect laptop to me

                                                          1. 3

                                                            I just wanted to say that I’ve recently acquired AMD T14 Gen1 and it’s awesome. BIOS toggle for S3/S0x3 sleep until firmware lands in the kernel, runs Fedora 33 with no hassle. It’s light enough for me and fast as hell. It was a seamless update (install clean distro, copy /home, get back to work).

                                                            Maybe all Linux devs have a velvet black box fetish, but I don’t really care. This upgrade made me really happy. :-)

                                                            1. 3

                                                              I fully agree. I recently switched from using MacBooks for over 13 years (including the M1) to the AMD T14 and I love it. The expandability is awesome too, I replaced the 512GB by SSD by an 1TB SSD and upgraded the memory from 16 to 32GB. The hardware works out-of-the-box on Linux for me too. It’s also pretty quiet, even under load.

                                                              The only issue that I have run into is that Linux does not correctly configure the 2 USB-C lanes used for DisplayPort on the Thinkpad USB-C Gen2 dock as HBR3, so it cannot drive 4k@60Hz through the dock. It’s not a hardware issue, because it works fine in Windows. For the meanwhile, I just plug the display into the second USB-C port.

                                                            2. 3

                                                              If someone wants to switch from classic 7-row ThinkPad with proper INS/DEL HOME/END PGUP/PGDN keys combo to Mac keyboard and treats that as an upgrade then I do not want to read the rest of the article. Loss of time.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                I am ThinkPad-less for the first time in years because my toddler poured an entire glass of water into it. My backup is a Dell XPS that I kept around when I needed Windows. While the XPS is mostly great, I spent a lot of time and compiling drivers to make it work. I honestly do not remember the last time I had to compile a wireless driver for a ThinkPad. And, echoing at least response here, that’s the main reason why I’ve stuck with them.

                                                                Additionally, the keyboard is legit awesome. The TrackPoint is an important part of my workflow now as well. Fortunately, Lenovo makes a wireless ThinkPad keyboard that is a ThinkPad keyboard and it works really well. So, even though I’m not using a ThinkPad for a bit, I can still have my ThinkPad keyboard.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  My family’s (admittedly refurbished) ThinkPads ended up having enough problems that we’ve given up on them. Some clearly hardware, some maybe hardware maybe Linux. When latest one died we got System 76 instead, at least it’s designed to run Linux.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    The trackpads for years were mediocre

                                                                    Well, at least starting with the 40 series they’ve had perfectly decent Synaptics models that track multiple fingers just as well as anything else. But I would say that its surface was not the most pleasant to the touch, glass is way better.

                                                                    The longevity of ThinkPad batteries is also terrible

                                                                    Hmm, can’t say I’ve noticed much degradation on the one I’ve had for about 5 years.

                                                                    I went with a Pixelbook after the ThinkPad because the bulky build wasn’t appealing anymore. If you aren’t trying to use a laptop as a desktop (I’m not), compactness is the number one priority, so I’m not even considering anything thick enough for a full Ethernet port anymore.

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      I wonder if Synaptics touchpad would be as good if Apple hadn’t paved their way first. If Apple uses translucent plastic, the PC industry will too, one or two years later. If Apple uses widescreen displays, two years later, you will have a hard time finding a PC with a 4:3 screen. If Apple’s keyboard quality deteriorates, the entire industry will have worse keyboards.

                                                                      Apple is the unpaid R&D unit of the entire PC industry, for better or worse.

                                                                      1. 2


                                                                        I mean.

                                                                    2. 1

                                                                      Regarding Let’s Notes, they’re definitely fun but they’re tiny and have keyboards I’m not sure are satisfying to everyone. I think they’re definitely going to win the novelty competition but you might get frustrated from aspects of it.

                                                                      If you have money burning in your pocket tho…