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    We need to address the undervaluing of HTML and CSS for what it is: gender bias. Even though we wouldn’t have computer science without pioneering women, interloping men have claimed it for themselves. Anything less than ‘real programming’ is now considered trivial, silly, artsy, female. That attitude needs to eat a poisoned ass.

    This…didn’t really seem to follow from the rest of the article’s discussion.

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      Yeah… I agree with the remark you quoted, but you’re absolutely right that the article didn’t build context for it.

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        Yep! It’s not a bad sentiment, but rhetorically it’s just kinda out of place.

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      The last time I switched jobs I sold myself as Full Stack, because you know what? Back in the day (mid 2000’s in my case) we did do it all. I’ve done a hell of a lot of frontend over the years, but only a little “modern” frontend. I’ve had to work with ember and angular, but I’ve never spent the time to master them or their tool chains. So yeah, employers want full stack, to make myself more marketable (ie $$$), I am full stack.

      But am I really? Hell no, I don’t give two sh-ts about running the js framework of the week hamster wheel. My css is ugly and poorly organized. Here’s the thing, I can do it though, not half bad and in a reasonable time. But there aren’t many frontend devs who can jump into spring annotated java spaghetti and be productive. Alot of the pure front end devs I’ve worked with are totally lost in it. Not all, but most. And that’s the difference.

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        js framework of the week hamster wheel

        You may be happy to learn that the hamster wheel has slowed down a lot in the past few years. There are a handful of JS frameworks in large-scale use, and the list isn’t changing that quickly. I’m not sure if there was a single new framework in the last year or two that caused any real buzz. Vue is probably the most recent one, and that’s 4 years old. React did cause a huge buzz, got a lot of hype, and a lot of adoption, but it’s 5 years old. There are currently no successors in sight to the current major frameworks.

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        I may just be unlucky, but I seem to often end up in a situation where I have a designer who can only work in Photoshop and Sketch, and has no desire to learn HTML/CSS, and a developer who can only work in JavaScript, and also has no desire to learn HTML/CSS. So apparently I need yet a third person who only knows HTML/CSS, which makes no sense to me, as that seems like just too small a domain to be a real job. I don’t get why designers don’t want to learn the next layer down and developers don’t want to learn the next layer up.

        Also, having lived through the entire history of inventing the web so-called platform, I assure you the whole thing was built by and for “real” developers, so arguments that HTML/CSS “aren’t code” just seem silly to me. Only a developer could have come up with the bizarre multidimensional context-sensitive minefield that is CSS. :)

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          So apparently I need yet a third person who only knows HTML/CSS, which makes no sense to me, as that seems like just too small a domain to be a real job. I don’t get why designers don’t want to learn the next layer down and developers don’t want to learn the next layer up.

          I think they don’t want to learn it because it’s not a small domain. And it’s a domain that’s very different from what they’re used to working in. CSS in particular is deeply esoteric in places, especially if you’re working with old code or you need wide browser support. It’s a world of unintuitive behaviours, platform/browser specific exceptions, and workarounds. But writing it isn’t usually enough to be a full-time job for someone, as often after the main work is done the HTML/CSS sits untouched for months or years. It’s almost the kind of place where you might want an expert consultant on a retainer or something.

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            Good point — certainly for a decade or so the HTML/CSS job seemed to involve memorizing a big set of arbitrary workarounds for browser quirks, which is more like a consulting job. But nowadays the platform seems a lot more sensible and stable than it used to. I mean, it doesn’t seem any more complicated or esoteric than the iOS or Android frameworks, and you don’t treat iOS or Android UI programming as a whole separate job, right?

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              But nowadays the platform seems a lot more sensible and stable than it used to.

              I think that’s accurate, if you’re using a modern browser. Flexbox takes a bit of getting used to, but I would expect any Javascript programmer to have enough incidental exposure to HTML and CSS that they’d be able to pick it up fairly easily. Likewise CSS Grid, which seems like where anyone beginning CSS should probably start: learn a few common HTML elements (including the main semantic ones) and learn Grid. Forget the rest of it, until you need it.

              Of course, if you’re dumped into a 10 year old codebase it’s probably divs and floats and spacers all the way down…

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            It’s awkward because it’s a deep enough domain to require the expertise of a full-time worker, but very few companies actually need more than a few weeks per year of their time.