1. 62

  2. 15

    Is this a misconception: It’s harder to write a window manager for Wayland. Looking at the sway of WM’s for “regular” xorg setups, it seems “fairly” manageable to get to a working state quickly. Looking at sway or way-cooler, it seem like a lot more work. Or am I mistaken?

    1. 15

      No, this is true.

      1. 4

        Do you have any ideas on how this could be overcome? Or should this be seen as a good thing?

        1. 5

          Mir is working on something in this direction. But I don’t think it’s too terrible of a thing, no. You get a lot of power and flexibility with something like wlroots that makes more novel desktops possible.

          1. 1

            Don’t forget Wayfire :) Anyone can just implement whatever window management stuff they want as loadable plugins for Wayfire.

            1. 1

              Is Mir still an active project? I thought it effectively lost sponsorship once Canonical abandoned it.

              1. 3

                It’s still active, but they ditched their own protocol in favor of Wayland and I’m not sure how many resources are devoted to it.

        2. 2

          AFAICT the difference is mainly that the hard part, writing the actual rendering, is done by X11, so most X11 window managers don’t have to bother with that at all. Wayland windows managers do have to bother if they want to work.

          1. 5

            A window manager can be written a plugin for an existing compositor like Wayfire or Weston.

        3. 17

          If you don’t like it, don’t use it

          They said that about systemd. So far there are only two or three ‘general purpose’ distributions that don’t require a lot of jury-rigging to use a systemd-alternative out of the box. The same will happen with Wayland.

          1. 4

            A pretty big difference is that the Wayland community actively supports X. If you were to essentially be forced to use Wayland because your favorite distro moved to it with no easy way to get back to X, you would still be able to use Xwayland to so whatever you currently need X for.

            There are some things, such as using proprietary nvidia drivers, remote desktop, etc. where “just use Xwayland” isn’t a satisfying answer, but realistically, those things will probably be solved long before it becomes impractical in most distros to use X.

            1. 2

              Yeah I was gonna say I don’t really see the comparison here. Wayland is setting out to solve some really serious shortcomings in X11 that exist simply by virtue of it (X11) being a 35 year old protocol, and given that X11 compat was a design goal from jump it doesn’t feel like the same kind of shock treatment many people see systemd being.

              1. 1

                That works for one direction, but what happens when applications start requiring Wayland and dropping support for X? Is that a legitimate concern?

                1. 5

                  Most Wayland compositors can run as an X11 window, it should be possible to strip one down to only manage a single application’s windows. Considering Wayland has good info on the windows, it should be doable.

                  1. 1

                    That’s helpful; thanks. I think it’s only natural for people to feel trepidation here considering how badly many have been burned by pulseaudio and systemd, but you’re right that this does sound very different once you take a closer look.

                  2. 1

                    but realistically, those things will probably be solved long before it becomes impractical in most distros to use X.

                    That’s also what we were told a la systemd’s problems.

                    It’s something that keeps getting said in these sorts of contexts, but it rarely pans out.

                    1. 2

                      Do you think Canonical and Red Hat, who have paying customers who depend on the ability to e.g use nvidia cards or remote desktop on their systems, will make it impossible or unsupported to use X11 before those issues are sorted out with Wayland?

                      1. 1

                        They had paying customers that had specific and complex setups wrt. init scripts. There are many, many issues with systemd that have not been fixed, but those customers were forced to transition to systemd along with everyone else.

                  3. 3

                    Systemd was a replacement for most of the Linux “system software” (userspace things that would be “base” in BSD terms). It’s a big invasive low-level change, you don’t generally just swap out your init and device manager and log manager / etc every day.

                    Wayland is a protocol, and every Wayland compositor is “just another KMS/DRM application”. Xorg, Weston, Sway, Wayfire, Gnome-shell, KWin, kmscon, RetroArch, Kodi… they’re all just userspace applications. Build and run. Run whatever you want, switch between them every hour, whatever. It’s hard to make that hard.

                    As long as the GUI toolkits support X11, it will be possible to use Xorg.

                  4. 19

                    If you enjoy toxic internet drama, this thread on the orange site is raging with anti-Wayland flamers.

                    Good on you @SirCmpwn for trying to change minds - or at least stop the spread of FUD.

                    1. 7

                      TL;DR; Of this article.

                      Insert gif of Torvald’s expressing his considered and accurate opinion of Nvidia here.

                      As of 2019-02-10, NVIDIA are still bad actors, never buy NVIDIA.

                      1. 12

                        That’s a very incomplete summary. I’m not particularly enthusiastic about wayland, and it has nothing to do with nvidia.

                        1. 3


                          Wayland should have absolutely sweet nothing to do with nvidia.

                          But due to the various reasons mentioned by Torvald… Nvidia cards are too “Defective by Design” to support Wayland.

                          1. 4

                            Well, the driver, not the cards themselves of course. Nouveau works fine with all compositors. But Nouveau is very far behind the proprietary driver because Nvidia are complete assholes: (almost?) zero documentation, even just the signed firmware blobs were published extremely late…

                            And still, compositors can work with the proprietary driver, just most developers don’t want to and/or don’t have the resources to. Gnome probably will work.

                        2. 7

                          Well, also people hating on the project for not doing a pile of free labor to muddy up their open-source code to support revenues of a company road-blocking open-source code. That makes it morally worse.

                          Be different if this was a morally-apathetic group of paid programmers whose customers needed NVIDIA support. Then, they’d get something for dealing with NVIDIA’s BS.