1. 0

    So if im doing it in SQL, i’m not writing extra code? Then by which sorcery do I communicate with SQL?

    1. 2

      I will try to clean and organise all my stuff.

      1. 2

        ok now that advent of code day 15 question has dropped, i guess i will spend all my time trying to solve it instead.

      1. 18

        Interesting that they chose to put “Company” in the title, not “Google”. It seems “Do no evil” is summarily dead. The fact that academics have to proactively defend their published research from being patented is sickening. The patent system is in dire need of reform.

        1. 8

          “Do no evil” is summarily dead.

          I’ve seen very little evidence that it has even been alive until now.

          1. 3

            What’s evil is the broken legal system around patents.

            Even if you are good, if the rules are bad then you either have to do bad to survive, or you will be outcompeted by those willing to do bad. In the end, only bads are left.

            So blaming google here is not a correct approach.

            1. 7

              While I completely agree, in general, that the incentives and procedures are broken, this is a particularly egregious case and I do believe Google is (or more precisely, Google’s employees are) to blame for this particular case.

          1. 21

            What’s missing? A lot!

            Another thing that’s missing is support for accessibility on any desktop platform. This means, for example, that blind people can’t use Flutter-based desktop apps via screen readers. Please don’t use this for anything important until this problem is solved.

            1. 4

              This isn’t a reason to not not use Flutter for desktop apps right now, but I believe the a11y story for Electron apps is extremely poor too. :(

              Supposedly there’s some support, but AFAICT it’s slightly worse than Google Chrome’s, which is abysmal when I last tried it. I can’t remember details with any precision but I had a tiny Electron app that I’d written with just a tiny HTML form and a couple buttons (i.e. only barely bigger than hello world) and I remember trying to get it to be usable with NVDA + keyboard controls was just a complete bust.

              I think the HTML thing I’d written was WCAG-y enough - proper <button> elements for the clickable bits and so on rather than divs with onclick handlers, and so on. So when I open the HTML file that my tiny Electron app was embedding:

              • in MS Edge, I think I had no trouble getting NVDA to read the page out, navigate elements and use them.
              • in Chrome, haha, complete bust. I think it would only read out one <button> and totally ignore the <p> tags?

              As far as I can tell:

              • the Chrome team just don’t assign any programmer effort at all to exposing useful data to the Windows a11y APIs.
              • Firefox tries a bit but doesn’t do a perfect job :/
              • MSIE and MS Edge both work really nicely with NVDA. Clearly a tonne of effort has been put in here, because I can actually read real websites (e.g. BBC news, can’t remember if I tried lobsters 😉) when I tried using MS Edge + NVDA, despite having approximately no experience with using a screenreader (because I’ve never needed to).

              (edit: sorry if I got a bunch of details wrong, this was most of a year ago and I didn’t take detailed notes at the time)

              1. 3

                Interesting. For at least the past year and a half, NVDA has worked quite well with Chrome. And Electron apps can be fully accessible with NVDA, though of course not all of them are.

                1. 2

                  Hm. Doesn’t match what I saw when I tried it. I think it was early 2018 judging by the time stamp on the copy of NVDA lying around in my downloads folder.

              2. 5

                Please don’t use this for anything important until this problem is solved.

                Just because something isn’t useful for blind people, doesn’t make it useless.

                Most people in the world are not blind. You don’t need to cater to exactly 100% of people and all their idiosyncracies for a tool to be useful.

                1. 13

                  Don’t blindly assume that assistive technology support is exclusively for blind people.

                  Doing AT support right also subsumes a other things like the app’s usability by people who can’t currently use a mouse.

                  Think of “this doesn’t work for blind users” as a litmus test: if you can use it with your eyes closed, it’s fairly safe to say that very few people will be locked out of it.

                  You and I and every one of us are all at most one small explosion away from having eyesight bad enough to need a screen reader anyway.

                  1. 5

                    Maybe my plea was a bit too unconditional. After all, some applications are inherently visual and couldn’t be used by blind people no matter what GUI toolkit is used. But I don’t believe that’s most applications.

                    I know a blind person who almost lost his job because of an inaccessible application. Actually, he did lose his job, then the company hired him back because they found an entirely new role for him. Anyway, for a time, however brief, he was without a job, and had the emotions that come with that. So when I advocate for accessibility on a thread like this, I’m trying to prevent something like that from happening again.

                    1. 1

                      No, I think it’s actually totally reasonable. If it’s not usable for blind people it’s worse than useless, it’s a personal liability. One day I woke up and I couldn’t see the lightswitch on the wall 5 feet away from me. It was temporary, caused by eyestrain, however for many it’s not temporary. Requiring accessibility means you have it WHEN you go blind. Notice I said when, there is no if here. The only if is if you die first.

                1. 13

                  Well, the one thing I have learned from being on the internet is that it’s full of ungrateful people.

                  After that I learned that the reason for this is that you don’t notice the grateful people, even though they are there. You are ungrateful for the grateful.

                  For every 1 person complaining about stuff, 100 more are using it happily and silently. The first rule of the internet is still in effect: ignore the trolls.

                  1. 1

                    How secured is your house against a madman coming in with an AR-15 with murderous intent? The answer is: not secured at all.

                    If the computer security has their way, you would be encasing your children in hazmat suit and decontaminated when they enter your home in the off chance that somebody would try to kill you by infecting your children with ebola. After, “literally anybody” could do that, if they wanted to.

                    1. 4

                      The difference between computer and physical security is that there only needs to be one such madman on the planet for the risks to apply, since you’re plugged into the network. This isn’t imaginary; blaster took down 1/3rd of the web iirc.

                    1. 12

                      It’s a lost cause on politics, friendlysock. The vast majority of votes in most threads favor political activism in both submissions and comments. They also favor a specific kind of leftist politics over others with consistent responses, positive and negative, over about a year. The recent thread prioritized political action, up to pushing a person to quit their job, over the technical content by around 6 to 1 votes when I last looked. Situation is similar for others. Also, low-content, political comments get more support at times than high-content, technical comments.

                      Conclusion: the Lobsters community isn’t what it was when you wrote What Lobsters Is and Isnt. It is now a community that prioritizes leftist, political activism over all other activities with a small, chunk of dissenters. It’s also a link aggregator whose content is a mix of that, stuff in your Is list, and stuff in your Isnt list. It’s dishonest to say anything else that doesnt reflect what majority of voting users promote and commenters do here.

                      Ill be updating my description of the site in near future to match its current mix of deep tech, HN/Reddit-like news, and leftist activism. Im also going to stop all poitical comments counter to that leftist style of politics since the dominant group has consensus that they’re not welcome here and therefore too low-impact to matter. I will note they weren’t censored: a strength of Lobsters’ moderation. Ill only comment like that further where it impacted or is aimed at me. I might also modify my submissions to reflect this community’s priorities putting the others somewhere else (eg a blog). I’ll note the changes in my profile so people in Lobsters’ minority, folks like us, can still follow that stuff if they choose.

                      I’ll probably start the process next year since November and December are so busy for me. I have some other ideas that might improve things further for both political opponents and minority folks (esp anti-politics for Lobsters). I think 2019 will be an interesting time for Lobsters.

                      1. 9

                        Im also going to stop all poitical comments counter to that leftist style of politics since the dominant group has consensus that they’re not welcome here and therefore too low-impact to matter.

                        I don’t think this is true, especially since you are the one of the few who call out the inconsistencies when you see them. The marginal value is especially important when there are few, going down from 5-4-3-2-1 against the endless horde of leftist posturing and virtue signaling makes every step the more damaging to reasons and honesty.

                        The reasoning that the dominant group has consensus isn’t even an argument in my mind. To follow this line of reasoning, one should only voice one’s opinions, or the truths if they agree with the consensus view. That is clearly a bad place to be in.

                        At the end of the day ethical questions will always be more relevant and more voted on. Because it impacts everyone, while technical issue can be both beyond your grasp (i.e. you don’t know enough about this particular tech to talk about it) or simply boring. Add to that the highly emotionally charged nature of ethics and politics, we shouldn’t really count number of votes and comments as to be metric by which to value opinions and discussions. I’m not going to stop speaking English because there are 15 billions or however many Chinese speakers (in some timeline).

                        1. 6

                          Thanks for the encouragement. Especially from someone who doesn’t back down on their own politics in this space. I agree with most of your comment. I’m even continuing to do the dissent in places where it counts (aka mostly real life). I’m just cutting it off for Lobsters. Maybe most of these online forums with low numbers of people with leftist activists in control. Which they definitely are now.

                          You see, your post presumes two things: this is a place for actual, political discussion; the old Lobsters is worth fighting for. I disagree with both with the 2nd following from the 1st.

                          The site was a low-noise, technical site with occasional, political scuffles. The first meta where I put strong arguments for no politics or free speech had a huge number of people supporting my position. They were both putting time in with arguments (most important) and upvoting (peripherally important). There were many people on opposing side, too. Their side wanted specific kind of politics in every thread, mostly downvotes/insults anyone that disagrees (some were nice), and occasionally some would want a CoC that would let them ban dissent(ers).

                          During and after the mass invite, the people in the leftist activist crowd invited a lot more people. As I fought their false claims and demands for no dissent, more people on no politics and free speech sides droppped off in both comments and votes. Seeing patterns from other sites, they decided that Lobsters would be politically dominated and not worth further investment. Some for just politics, others for whole site. Eventually, we had a moderator and admin with similar beliefs as the crowd with most mindshare. Add to that some long-running members were telling them they’d quit Lobsters if (a) politics wasn’t allowed everywhere or (b) it became “like HN, Reddit, etc.” by allowing non-left folks to post their own links those leftist abhorred. What hypocrisy if goal is actual, political discussion and evolution. That overall combination sealed the fate of the technically-focused, less-political Lobsters.

                          Now, that site is gone. Look at the current vote counts and moderator statements on various positions here. Still consistent with my claim it’s changed. Now, if that is the environment, next question is, “Is political action worth effort?” Prior conversations indicate these people are not here for discussion. Their type of politics believes they’re already correct about the fundamentals (a religion), that people are getting harmed (mostly imagined) by every dissenting statement/action, and their moral imperative is to convert everyone to their beliefs to reduce that harm and promote the good they believe in. They’re evangelists, not philosophers or conversationalists, at least when it’s about politics. That kind of view is also why they act like a mob on anyone disagreeing even with civil posts, often with accusations of harm or discrimination. You’ll also see them throw low-effort comments while people like me in outgroup wanting actual discussion might put 30 min into making ours thoughtful and civil. That was really draining. Which was the goal, deterrence of dissent, which worked since the numbers shifted with high participation from people with their beliefs but almost zero participation from those of us with alternative beliefs.

                          Conclusion: the political aspects of Lobsters are now an echo chamber for a specific kind of politics with everything else to be heavily penalized and shunned. Most of their action is virtue signaling and/or outgroup shaming since it achieves nothing in the real world toward their goals. The actual, political discussion they intend is among people in their group evangelizing their beliefs, hashing out differences they tolerate within parameters of shared beliefs, developing plans for increasing conformance in more spaces (online/offline), and so on. Although for some it’s intentional, others seem to be just going with the flow since that’s what they believe. After increasing participation by non-leftist-activist Lobsters, turning the site around would require changing the beliefs of one moderator, maybe the admin, and maybe 40-80 voters based on last action I saw. Then, Lobsters would immediately loose key members who will quit on political grounds. The people you’re convincing value those members, too. So, that’s a monumental effort to either get politics off Lobsters or shove it into dedicated, political threads. It’s possible the latter happens as a compromise without monumental effort but I’m not holding my breath: admin probably won’t do something that makes the people who will quit follow through with their promise.

                          Conclusion 2: If I’m not extremely busy, you’ll see it by 2019. Meanwhile, I’ll be done discussing politics after a transition since Lobsters isn’t a site for political discussion: it’s a leftist-activist site dedicated to evangelizing their politics and correcting non-conformance while also enjoying reading and commenting on some technical stuff. There’s a dissenting group doing other things. They’re not in control or increasing in number, though. Do what you want on your end. Just know you’re doing it in a church expecting religious renouncement rather than a political conversation expecting evolution of thought.

                          1. 2

                            yeah, you convinced me.

                        2. 8

                          There are a string of sites that I’ve abandoned (Tumblr, Twitter, HN, Reddit) for similar reasons that you outline. Up until relatively recently, Lobste.rs. seemed to be a sane corner of the internet where most discussions could take place without devolving into moral posturing.

                          I’m unsure if ceding the territory to the hyper-political is the right answer. From a mental health perspective it certainly is, but from of societal perspective it appears to just lead to more isolation and polarization.

                          1. 7

                            The admin and one moderator support what I describe along with most of voters in those threads and comments. It’s already done. The environment is fixed to that situation at the moment. We have to integrate with or reject that situation. There’s at least two choices:

                            1. Ignore the politics to focus on the technical content.

                            2. Contribute to the politics to further the goals of the new, community politics while improving one’s standing in it. This will reinforce the current situation with that type of politics and focus going up from here.

                            I’m doing 1 for now after this thread unless pulled into a discussion. I’ll be doing some of 2 due to overlap between their and my politics in terms of benefiting people. Thinking about various possibilities. Retreating from political discussion in a place where it goes nowhere outside specific groups’ beliefs and practices, the community’s majority position, makes the most sense just purely on an effort/impact basis. There were some great moments that came out of all that work, though. I won’t forget them.

                          2. 10

                            For what it’s worth, I really appreciate your comments about security and building things that are reliable. I’ve learned a lot from your comments, and I hope to learn more in the future.

                            It’s pretty taxing for me personally to read your posts that go into politics. In my reading, your tone changes pretty dramatically from the endless-well of experience and good-natured sharing of knowledge to a more condescending, defensive one.

                            Things are more politically interesting than they were when I found this site a few years ago. Things are less stable, and we are in an increased state of conflict. Conflicts on this scale will permeate more and more of our lives until they are resolved. To the extent that this is a space of low-friction discourse, the conflict will act itself out when two sides decide to play the game. People are saying “oh, isn’t it such a bad thing that the palantir OP couldn’t respond to the top comment?” but It’s not. They chose not to play that particular game. I think you’re right to identify that your conflicts are those of your choosing.

                            1. 13

                              “For what it’s worth, I really appreciate your comments about security and building things that are reliable. I’ve learned a lot from your comments, and I hope to learn more in the future.”

                              Thank you! I’ll stay at it!

                              “It’s pretty taxing for me personally to read your posts that go into politics” … “to a more condescending, defensive one.”

                              I appreciate your honesty. Given you bring it up, I figure I’ll explain one last time unless asked again. I can at least tell you where that defensiveness comes from that ties into Lobsters in at least two, major ways:

                              1. Black students and administrators at a black school with similar beliefs and practices, esp disagreement = offense or personal attack, used them to justify silencing, shouting at, slandering, and physically beating white students on a daily basis. I endured this for years like other whites did at every black school I asked about. I got PTSD from the effects of beatings, esp having to see them coming from a mere glance. They simultaneously talked up our privilege, their oppression, and so on despite them having all the advantages and power which they used to hurt us. That led almost all white students (except a few like me) to believe similar stories in media were lies perpetuated by an aggressive race of people. The few, really-good students and teachers plus me wanting to get along kept me non-racist (biased at worst). Liberals of Lobsters’ type and blacks told me from then onto today that structural oppression against whites doesn’t exist, our claims don’t matter, and/or just perpetuate “real” racism against minorities. So, the psychological damage, PTSD cases, discrimination, and resulting racism among white victims will continue until such systematic racism against whites is exposed, squashed where possible, and sympathy extended to victims rather than denial of their existence. People said same stuff here, too, so I fought it for a while. One that switched positions floored me: it’s so, so, so rare.

                              2. Prior threads where I expressed civil disagreement with examples got me hit with personal attacks and people that misrepresented my comments on purpose. There were usually many of them at once with some having high upvotes. When a non-leftist or non-PC-leftist did that, they’d usually get slammed by the same people talking about comment quality and inclusiveness should stay up before the comment was collapsed. That difference happened a lot. Knowing there’s people watching with intent to do that either creates a chilling effect or increases agitation/resolve in most people who sense it. Even greater in me since I grew up in a murder capital with micro and overt aggression making me optimized to react fast and hard to it. I’m still so toned down compared to how folks in Mid-South, esp minority members, usually respond to personal insults tied into politics, esp racial. For the rest here, it was largely a chilling effect: many people contacted me over time after Lobsters got super-political saying they didn’t feel safe voting or commenting on political stuff since they thought they’d loose their account. A few thanked me for representing dissenting opinions. Some left.

                              Put those two together and I was still getting personal attacks, I got a little defensive when talking about the same things with the same people. It’s only natural even though I hate it had to be painful experience for onlookers who weren’t involved in such behavior. I should mention that some people here put in a lot of effort to be civil. A few even would message me links helping me understand their side of things. @pushcx and @Irene particularly handled lots of tough situations well: their responses prioritized civil discussion, tolerance of dissent, and remedial action wherever possible. The political discussions (and battles) taught me which Lobsters had good to outstanding character in difficult situations. I’ll remember them in the future if opportunities knock.

                              This is all historical, though, since I’ll be done with my form of politics on this site soon or by the end of the year. Could be a few more discussions left since there’s ongoing meta and transitional effects I might not see coming. I’m minimizing it, though, while still posting those security and reliability papers/tips yall love. We have a great, little, security/verification community here with folks good at theory, some at practice, and some that do both. Gotta keep building that up on top of other communities. There’s possibilities to bring in more experienced and CompSci people in things like UI/UX that are highly important, but get less attention.

                            2. 10

                              “Leftist political activism” is a weird way to characterize caring about our social milieu.

                              That said, I’ve seen a lack of engagement by those with contrary political views, other than to bemoan talking about any issue that isn’t narrowly technical.

                              1. 9

                                The highest-voted, leftist views are about what constitutes racism/sexism, transgender identity, political correctness with language policing, focus on inclusive behavior prioritizing non-whites/males, and telling people to quit Palantir (but not Google or Apple/Foxconn). These kind of views are most dominant in terms of upvotes and replies. When described, most people say leftist, social justice, and so on.

                                I’m open to other phrases so long as the label will indicate most or all of the above to a centrist, conservative, or other person that doesn’t closely follow such politics.

                                1. 3

                                  I would disagree with you on one premise. There are hardly any “leftist views” here. I would classify most of them as “right of center but not too right”. The discourse has gone so far right in the last 30 years, that fairly conservative views of old are now “leftist”. I would argue that most conservatives wouldn’t be able to identify leftist views. In fact, I find most conservatives are pretty comfortable with some of them. The ideals of freedom were often historically leftist ideas, for example. It’s pretty surprising to most Republicans that Lincoln corresponded and read Marx, and that communists joined the Republican party early on instead of creating their own. History is easily forgotten, especially in the tech world.

                                  1. 5

                                    This is a semantic argument. I’m sure if you go back long enough white means black or w/e.

                                    Right now leftists are interested in what was described.

                                    1. 0

                                      It is a semantic argument, with substantial differences in perspective on how its decided. I happen to agree with mempko, there are hardly any leftist views here, either in an economic or cultural sense. Being of the left isn’t a free for all, it has very real and substantial poles around which it organizes its ideology, and I was actually taken aback to see mempko’s comment given that I agreed and usually (almost always actually) I feel very much alone in settings like this. Just because someone supports, say, civil rights does not necessarily make them of the left. Same I might add for gender issues.

                                    2. 2

                                      Of Democrats and Liberals in U.S., a huge chunk of them push these views. Some don’t. No Republicans or Conservatives do that I’m aware of at least for these contexts. It would be pretty fringe. The Democrats and Liberals are Leftists or Left-leaning. Therefore, they’re Leftist Views at least to Americans.

                                      The situation might be different to people outside of America. The Europeans on both Hacker News and Lobsters sometimes have interesting comments about what’s called socialist here vs over there.

                                      1. 3

                                        It’s true that Europeans have different ideas of what leftist views are. But this is because Europeans still have a large base of leftists in the public sphere. But what I’m saying is that even by American standards, someone like Bernie Sanders would have been a moderate republican 50 years ago. That shift to the right has been so dramatic that people believe Democrats are “leftist”, when historically in America they are clearly right of center. 50 years of propaganda does a lot to change public views.

                                        So yes, you are right to say Democrats are “leftist” because that’s what convention says they are. But this almost blinds people to actual leftist views.

                                        I also think the newest generation will once again change what that means.

                                        1. 3

                                          That all makes sense. I have to use the current terms since that’s what everone is using. It enables wider understanding.

                                          1. 1

                                            My issue with a lot of conservatives is that they use the term “leftist” as a derogatory term. Which is sad because a lot of leftist ideas should appeal to conservatives. It’s almost as though words have the opposite meaning in the US as they do in the rest of the world. For example, the word Libertarian used to be synonymous with anarchist, and anarchists are strictly hardcore leftists. I feel the words “conservative” is similar now because to me a lot of modern conservative views are pretty extreme. I think conservatives have a lot in common with real leftists if they look closely. Many conservative talking points are basically Marxist! For example, the idea that you should be paid what you are worth. The ideas of freedom and individuality. Many leftists are against some Liberal ideas like cultural relativism. I’m sorry but genital mutilation is wrong.

                                            1. 1

                                              I agree again that lots of groups are more similar than different in some ways and their classification changed over time.

                                              Ill add to you first line that liberals bash conservatives incessantly in every forum I see, including here. It’s impossible for most of them to have a real, political discussion if things are that antagonistic. There’s a few of us doing actual discussion here now. Most threw votes for or against on reflex to push their views with the least participation and communication possible. People, esp on HN and Lobsters, have constantly reminded me it’s part of human nature (tribal instincts).

                                              So, folks have to confront that part, say “it’s about us, too, not just them,” constantly read other side’s views/evidence, and constantly re-assess. Most important, they have to learn to fight the instinct to attack the other side in discussions. Second that happens, it becomes an emotional fight where rational arguments have no effect. If folks keep at that, they’re just bullying and dominating, not doing discussion.

                                              I appreciate you mostly staying on actual, civil discussion in our conversations despite our beliefs being far apart. I always enjoyed them even if they got stressful. I still appreciate at least one person sets standard for science on improving people’s potential/happiness even though my view is more pessimistic. ;)

                                  2. 6

                                    “Caring about our social milieu” is a weird way to characterize leftist political activism.

                                    I’ve seen a lack of engagement by those with contrary political views, other than to bemoan talking about any issue that isn’t narrowly technical.

                                    That’s pretty consistent, wouldn’t you say? Though “bemoan” is a rather impolite way of putting it.

                                    (edit: on second reading, the post I’m replying to is actually some sort of low-key insult. disgusting.)

                                    1. 2

                                      That said, I’ve seen a lack of engagement by those with contrary political views, other than to bemoan talking about any issue that isn’t narrowly technical.

                                      I don’t hold particularly contrary political views, but I have to wonder if you’d actually welcome this kind of discussion from people with opposing political views, varying views on ethics, and similar?

                                      1. 0

                                        Why not?

                                    2. 0

                                      Your comments in that thread were not ‘counter to leftwing activism’. They were counter to common decency. You accused someone of being a hypocrite with no basis whatsoever.

                                    1. 4

                                      How do you think the person who submitted this neat project feels when only a tiny fraction of the replies to their submission even talk about it?

                                      That is mostly irrelevant. There are things at stake here more important than his feelings.

                                      And it doesn’t even follow that if the ethical ‘derail’ didn’t happen, there would be discussions about the submission itself. The alternative to 2 replies about the submission + 50 relies about ethics isn’t 52 replies about the submission, it is most likely 2 replies about the submission, so there wasn’t any extra replies that were ‘lost’ to the horde of other posts.

                                      1. 11


                                        1. 7

                                          That looks delicious. I love tofu.

                                        1. 30

                                          Is it just me, or is the age angle a bit strange? I don’t find it very weird or surprising for someone to enjoy games that were created before they started playing video games or even before they were born.

                                          1. 32

                                            “27 Year Old Magnus Carlsen Becomes World Champion of Game Inspired By 6th Century C.E. Board Games That Came Out Before He Was Born”

                                            1. 2

                                              He became world champion when he was 23 I think.

                                            2. 10

                                              It’s clickbait reporting from Kotaku.

                                              1. 4

                                                My son is literally playing the original Super Mario as I read this.

                                              1. 7

                                                I will probably go on the internet and try to convince people that government intervention in the lives of people is a net negative on society and should be resisted.

                                                1. 6

                                                  Good to see you’re trying new things. :)

                                                1. -10

                                                  People’s poor financial discipline is why employers have power over you. If you have fuck you money, then you can just quit and find another job.

                                                  The fact that you can’t just quit is why employers have power because they can afford to end the relationship but you can not.

                                                  If you used your money to buy a holiday in the Caribbean then you don’t have it to buy your freedom.

                                                  1. 31

                                                    I have fuck you money. Not lots of it, but enough that I managed to bring my boss to the table and get a raise and a promotion out of it.

                                                    However, virtually none of that money was acquired by my merit: I got it by selling the house my father left for me and my two sisters. I’m a clear example of how fuck you money is, in the overwhelming majority of cases, a privilege, not the result of merit.

                                                    But there are other kinds of privilege, more subtle ones, that amount to the same. We’re you able to study without having to work to provide for yourself or your family? We’re your parents college educated? Did they encouraged you to go to college? Do you have students loans? Do you have a safety net you can fall back to if shit goes wrong?

                                                    All of these things are essential in acquiring fuck you money. None of them are your merit. None of them are things you worked hard for. They’re all accidents of birth. A.K.A., privilege.

                                                    Is it impossible to get fuck you money without those things? Surely not. But it’s much, much harder.

                                                    So, tldr: don’t blame people for not getting through hard work something that, most people that have it, got it through accident of birth.

                                                    1. 2

                                                      That can be valid at the beginning, getting exploited in pay the first few jobs but then it boils down to people’s negotiation skills and confidence.

                                                      I negotiated hard my very first gig while I know people who still don’t ask for a little more when getting their 20th contract.

                                                      That’s why I find it silly when people say that certain people are just bound to make less, if you don’t negotiate when people need your expertise then when are you going to do it? And if you don’t then who’s to blame the employer if he gives you exactly what you are seemingly ok with?

                                                      1. 4

                                                        This is a simplification of a very complex subject. Pay gaps, be it gender, race, social class, or whatever other line, is a complex, multi-factored issue. It can not be explained away by “if you’re getting paid less is because you deserve less”.

                                                        This is the kind of question where, honestly, your experience is kind of irrelevant (and so is mine. You can argue that I’m contradicting myself, because I used my own case in the first comment, but in my defense, I was posing myself as a counterpoint to an idealized example of someone who acquired fuck you money through pure merit, so, I was trying to point that individual cases don’t matter in this question, generic trends do). Great, you negotiated well your first job. Good for you, but a) you’re likely overlooking your own privilege and b) you’re a single data point. For every one of you, good negotiator person, I can probably find 20 that got continually fucked over by factors beyond their control and found themselves unable to negotiate pretty much anything.

                                                        And finally, yes, employers are almost always the part to blame, because they have more power. It’s like sexual assault. A boss can’t claim a employee consented in being foundled daily if the alternative was being fired. Employers hold the power, so it’s their responsibility to not take unfair advantage of employees. If conditions are setup in a way that creates incentives to employers to be unfair, than we need government and employee organization to step in a guarantee that employers are not dicks.

                                                        1. 4

                                                          Employers hold the power

                                                          They do control the means of production and leave us to sell our labor for a wage. But the power is ours for the taking, if we decide to take it.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            Fair enough. My country is on the verge of electing a homophobic racist buffoon that openly supports torture and the return of a military dictatorship, though, so you can understand why I don’t place much hope in a popular uprising.

                                                            1. 1


                                                              1. 1

                                                                Shit, I’ll be really sad if you’re not from Brazil yourself. But yes, Brazil.

                                                    2. 17

                                                      Spoken like someone who has never known poverty!

                                                      Am I having poor financial discipline when all my wisdom teeth got impacted and infected simultaneously and I have to choose between keeping my hard-earned savings and not having a mouth? I have ten false teeth through no fault of my own. Should I have thrown away my ability to chew solid food to keep “my freedom” instead? I guess I could drink Soylent for the rest of my life!

                                                      1. 2

                                                        Yup, that’s why people don’t have fuck you money. Because of all the Caribbean holidays they buy.


                                                      1. 5

                                                        It’s unfortunate that even in the internet realm, the paradigm that russians and chinese are ‘the others’ is still being perpetuated. The great thing about the internet is that it brings people together across vast distances. Still, language and cultural barriers (and political too) are harder to overcome.

                                                        1. 6

                                                          The paradigm is true in the physical and digital realms. So, it should be perpetuated. Here’s a simplistic overview:

                                                          1. Several big countries, esp America, are imperialists that want to dominate, police, and especially financially exploit the rest of the world. They used military might a lot in the past. Then they used coercive, trade negotiations where each side was using spies or rich companies to get leverage. Later, America and its partners added a big-ass SIGINT network spying on everyone for self-defense but also advantage in contract and legal negotiations. They protect a lot of their advantages, earned and ill-gotten, via corrupt, I.P. laws.

                                                          2. Russia and China were building their own empires. They’ve each been to war with America, who wants their governments changed and them to bow down. Instead, they grew their own countries finding their own allies to rest Western imperialism and do their own where they could. Although some cooperation happens, they definitely want to move as much money, markets, and tech from us to them so their own companies and governments can win with it. They found it cheaper to steal I.P. and classified secrets than to build the stuff in the first place. So, they invest to this day massively in spies and hackers to do that. They’ve increased their own capabilities a ton with many huge companies forming that now compete with America. On the low end, the poorer people in those countries with lax enforcement of hacking or fraud charges against American targets found that lucrative way to come up.

                                                          And the article has a U.S. vs Russian and Chinese hackers with a government angle for both. Makes a ton of sense in light of No 1 and No 2. Hell, right now, Russia is protecting an American that did their biggest expose and U.S. is doing some trade war or something with China. I’m not sure where you get Americans, Russians, and Chinese all being brought together as a cooperative, peaceful group thanks to the Internet. Some people and companies might fit that but the overall story is non-violent form of war and pillaging.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            In what sense is it theft?

                                                            I mean, it’s illegal theft to copy that tech according to the US government, but presumably not according to the Russian/Chinese ones.

                                                            1. 2

                                                              f it’s not theft, illegal, or bad, it’s weird that they hid and denied that they did it so much. ;) Well, that’s just intuition. Their IP agreements are more official. They were only paying lip service. I kind of like that after watching the Wired documentary on Shenzhen. I’m anti-lock-in via patents and copyrights.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                They’ve signed onto an agreement that made it possible for them to get their goods to US (and allied) markets. And made it illegal, you’re right.

                                                                Choosing not to spend much on enforcement isn’t exactly the same as not having it on the books…

                                                                1. 4

                                                                  Their military and hackers work together to steal massive amounts of Western I.P. in every sector they can get. That’s the total opposite of not spending much on enforcement. That’s like hugging a person talking about cooperation with mutual benefit while fleecing everything you can off the person.

                                                          2. 1

                                                            Russians and Chinese aren’t being treated as “the others” in the internet realm. They’re being treated as the others in the English-speaking internet realm. This would be a nonsensical thing to say in Russian or Chinese on a Russian or Chinese forum. But that’s not where we’re communicating now.

                                                          1. 5

                                                            And here we are complaining about internet of things.

                                                            1. 15

                                                              Finish writing some code, go to a protest.

                                                              1. 3

                                                                Do you feel comfortable telling what kind of protest are you atending to? I want to know, because it is rare to protest on the country I live in, though we have more than enough reason to do so.

                                                                1. 4

                                                                  Yeah its no problem you can ask anything, its an Anti-Nazi protest, although i had to cancel as i just got a job trial to do tomorrow, so i am sad i cant go, but all my friends are going so that’s good.
                                                                  I try to go to the relevant protests for my political and moral view when i can, its worth doing as the world is getting more messed up everyday and there seems to be a lot of benign indifference to what happens in the world if it doesn’t directly effect someone.

                                                                  I am sorry to hear that protesting is rare in your country, have you looked at the possibility of protesting online?
                                                                  There are a lot of ways you can do it anonymously, but make sure you research it properly especially if your in a country that has restricted freedom of speech and horrible consequences for speaking out.

                                                                  1. 3

                                                                    I agree that we should not fall in the trap of benign indifference. Personally, I think we (as individuals) have the obligation to speak against unjustice, sadly most of the individuals in the society are not interested in trying to find a solution to our problems.

                                                                    I live (and have lived) in a poor country, from Central America, where freedom of speech is non-existant and people consider you a threat in case you want to speak about our problems. Writing things on the internet is certainly on my list of things I’d like to do regularly, but have to change VPS provider to one that is more aligned with my views in technology.

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      Anti-Nazi protest

                                                                      Which government in the world currently is ideological nazi?

                                                                      1. 2

                                                                        AFD in Germany, and multiple other groups, but its not Germany’s current controlling party thankfully, we all know how that went last time.

                                                                        1. 2


                                                                          1. 1

                                                                            Yes thats the one.

                                                                        2. 1

                                                                          One can protest against Nazi parties before they are part of a government. In fact, given past history, it’s the only time one can protest against them.

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                                                                    The most concerning part is DigitalOcean will shut off your server and then contact you second. There should be at least a day given to respond before your service gets shut off.

                                                                    1. 3

                                                                      On the other hand, if your server actually got hacked due to some security vulnerability, you might be happy they blocked it immediately. It would also potentially stop spreading.

                                                                      1. 2

                                                                        They prob. do that for a bigger customer.

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          I suspect that anti-phishing policies are derived from safe harbor policies at most web hosting companies (since they both involve shutting down or making inaccessible other people’s files or services). DMCA takedowns are performed immediately & then investigated (or never investigated, more likely) in order to avoid liability under safe harbor provisions, since there’s a time limit of either 24 or 48 hours (I’ve forgotten which).

                                                                          If the author actually was a professional spammer/phisher, and was dumb enough to be paying for his own hosting from a place with anti-phishing policies, then he could use the 24 hours warning to register new accounts & move his operation, so even if you want to take the position that DigitalOcean’s primary goal is to be proactive against phishers / protect users rather than to cover their ass, there’s a case to be made.

                                                                          Certainly, under these circumstances the behavior is user- (and customer-) hostile, but that’s business: as long as you’re sure they’ll pay you, hostility doesn’t affect the bottom line, and you can feel free to alienate customers in direct proportion to other kinds of risk. Running a public IPFS gateway on a rented machine is an unusual behavior (of dubious utility, since running a private gateway is so easy & pure-JS gateways that run in the browser exist for those who can’t), & it’s unlikely that DigitalOcean is going to adapt their policies to support any kind of open gateway or proxy.

                                                                        1. -7

                                                                          In another star system, some programmer created a calculator. However, upon inputting 1+3 the program spits out 4. This was considered wrong because it is oddist and the program was altered to output 5 instead.

                                                                          Alas that was already too late and the programmer was burned at the stake.

                                                                          1. 6

                                                                            I understand the point you are making but there’s a difference between an algorithm picking up on correlations we’d rather not think about and an algorithm simply being fed bad input data.

                                                                            The problem with Tay by Microsoft for example is that its input data was an organised attempt by trolls to feed it as much nonsense as possible. If it just turned out to be rude, that might just be it picking up on what Twitter is like. But it wasn’t.

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            I’m already suggesting to people to use ChromeOS through VNC to access the web. I say this to make them realize that the web is heavily controlled by Google.

                                                                            IMO, the faster we can get this to happen, the faster people will see why this sucks.

                                                                            And then we can start over.

                                                                            All the while, Web3 will develop.

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                                                                              People wouldn’t care anyways, they just want to click ok and get on with things no matter which measure it’ll involve. Cat GIFs, Netflix’n’chill and “work e-mail” are more important than the fact you’re being fscked by Google or not. Especially in NA, Europeans seem to still pay a little attention, but it’s falling too.

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                Yep, you are totally right. This is why I think ChromeOS plus improvements to their documents platform and YouTube (watch YouTube offer music next) will eventually win out. The only thing Google is missing are games.

                                                                                Now what would be insane is if Google bought Valve.

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                                                                                  You can’t just unilaterally buy a company. The people that own it have to want to sell. And no way in hell is Gabe Newell selling Valve to Google.

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    You can, if it’s public. It’s called a “hostile takeover” and involves buying enough stock to own a vote-proof majority stake.

                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                      valve is not a public company…

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        I did not know that.

                                                                                  2. 3

                                                                                    watch YouTube offer music next

                                                                                    Already happened? https://www.youtube.com/musicpremium or the older https://play.google.com/music/listen

                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                      Ah, there you go. Now they need to just heavily develop it and maybe re-brand.

                                                                                    2. 4

                                                                                      But what do you think about people actually using computer for serious (not strictly IT related, so I’m intentionally omitting programming/data science/gamedev) tasks, not limited to content consumption?

                                                                                      • CAD
                                                                                      • DTP/graphics design
                                                                                      • Music production/DAWs (side note: due to this overall “macdonaldizing” of modern computing, people in music production community are often going “dawless” using only bare metal, often analog, hardware to generate and process their tracks, sometimes using a computer only for final track mix/postproc, but recently there’s a trend to release a hardware to arrange that too - Elektron Octatrack, Synthstrom Deluge, MPC X, and so on)
                                                                                      • Medical data processing/analyzing (MRI)
                                                                                      • countless other industry-specific tasks being actually made easier by using computers, as they’re the reason why computers have been made useful out of the universities

                                                                                      How they have to survive in next decades? I think in next 10 years Windows won’t be a “pro” platform anymore (dropping Win32 is their only hope now) but mostly meant to click on the internet and do normie stuff, maybe gaming (by adopting current-gen Xbox runtime on regular PCs), macOS is already only a shadow of its former glory. Desktop Linux is more likely to be a thing than never before (Valve’s recent revelations, kernel being legally pwned by top modern Silicon Valley giants, and so on) but I can’t really imagine all of that industry stuff being ported on Linux, even if I know about some porting R&D happening for some large products, but they’re more or less taken as a pet projects, even internally.

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                                                                                        I think in next 10 years Windows won’t be a “pro” platform anymore (dropping Win32 is their only hope now)

                                                                                        Microsoft cannot drop Win32. Such a thing entirely kills Windows, which is still a good cash cow, and creating a new OS, which is what they’d be left to supposing your drop of the most important asset, is a waste of resources. I’m not sure what replacement you could possibly have in mind while still calling it Windows. Nothing big is about to happen there within your 10 years. Maybe afterwards. It’s like with UNIX/POSIX, that won’t die either anytime soon.

                                                                                        It’s easy to be blinded by consumers. There is still going to be large demand for “serious” software, though it might become reconceptualized with AR and other interfaces. You cannot remove the need, you can change the means.

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                                                                                          For “serious” users, nothing will change. There will be less vendors maybe, but the amount of “custom computing” (GENERAL PURPOSE COMPUTING) will always be massive in academia and business. We are not at risk.

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            And at prices that only academia and business can afford. I think the era of “home computer” (that is a general purpose computer) is nearly dead, if not already dead.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              I think the era of “home computer” (that is a general purpose computer) is nearly dead, if not already dead.

                                                                                              I think you are right, makes me happy I was part of the generation that got to see the computer and internet sort of come of age.

                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                          Now what would be insane is if Google bought Valve.

                                                                                          Valves don’t actually make games. For distributing games, gooble already has the play store.

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                                                                                            It’s not about making games. It’s about having the platform, and every juicy piece of data that comes with.

                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                              They do make some games, Half-Life series, Portal series, Dota 2 and Artifact for example

                                                                                            2. 1

                                                                                              The only thing Google is missing are games.

                                                                                              Google Play Games - Quite a few (the majority?) of games on Android use this.

                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                I don’t know any AAA games released on Google Play. But that’s next I guess.

                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                  Well, Hearthstone for one. I’d argue that’s an AAA game.

                                                                                                  That said, non “AAA” titles also make up a lot of the market. Quite a lot of people who wouldn’t be caught playing on a PC or console play games casually on their smartphone (candy crush type stuff). It makes a lot of money.

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                                                                                          For some reason I have never liked the look and feel of SQL. I think functional style filter(select(db,'all'), filter-function ... makes more sense to me.

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                                                                                            SQL syntax is a bit clunky as it’s from the era when computer languages were designed to look sort of like English (“COBOL style”) rather than sort of like math (“Algol style”). But my main issue with it is that the order is scrambled. The pipeline is join|where|group|having|select but the syntax is select-join-where-group-having. In functional style (e.g., Microsoft’s Linq) it reads more clearly.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              Interesting. I always found that the nesting was one of the worst examples of functional style to the extent that people devised additional mechanisms to get rid of it.

                                                                                              I’d love to have something like …

                                                                                              let does = Stream.of[Person]
                                                                                                .accept(_ == "Doe")
                                                                                              let orders = Stream.of[Order]
                                                                                                .accept(_.price > 100)
                                                                                                .map(order -> (order.name, order.price)
                                                                                              let doesOrders: Stream[NameAndPrice] =
                                                                                                does.join(orders) // Stream[(String, String, Int)]
                                                                                                  .on(_.lastName, _.customerLastName)
                                                                                                  .as[NameAndPrice] // Stream[NameAndPrice]

                                                                                              … where you can describe the computation, and then tell it which datasource to use, e.g some database, a file-system, or an in-memory collection …

                                                                                              import streams.database
                                                                                              let result = doesOrders.using(databaseSession) // DB
                                                                                              import streams.filesystem
                                                                                              let result = doesOrders.using(personFile, orderFile) // filesystem

                                                                                              … and then tell it how you want to run it and which errors to handle:

                                                                                              let data: List[...] = result.run() // synchronous, blocking
                                                                                              let data: List[...] = result.handling(ioErrorHandler).runOn(threadPool) // parallel, blocking, handles IO-related errors
                                                                                              let data: Task[List[...]] = result.runAsync() // synchronous, blocking
                                                                                              let data: Task[List[...]] =result.runAsyncOn(threadPool) // parallel, blocking
                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                You mean like a query builder DSL? We already have those in many languages, and people generally agree that it’s better to write raw SQL.

                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                  No. (There are a few which are worth using btw, like JOOQ, but most authors underestimate the amount of effort required to really support SQL, so these libraries rarely support anything more than the most basic select ... from ... which makes them not worth using over raw SQL – but that’s not relevant here.)

                                                                                                  The point is to have an API that is datasource-agnostic, letting you pick the source of the data at the point where you want to run your computation, not as the required first step before you can even start writing your query.

                                                                                                  Going off a tangent for a bit:

                                                                                                  If there is one thing that is still understood poorly in computing, then it’s that front-loading your computations with data and implicitly running operations just doesn’t work: It does not allow users to describe how to execute their computation, which in turn makes error handling almost impossible.

                                                                                                  E. g. the common complaint about “lazy/non-strict/… evaluation of queries is bad because it’s makes it hard to wrap the right place with a try-catch if the data-source encounters an error” like https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?ref=rss&id=2611829 is a good example of people understanding the symptoms, but not their root cause. Strict evaluation makes it a bit simpler to reason where things can fail, but is overall a very poor idea – see Scala’s collections.

                                                                                                  It is not a problem with lazy vs. strict evaluation, but an issue with the implicit evaluation of the query.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              Why don’t people make super comp for highly parallel workloads out of these $1 chips? Surely 1,000 of these things do more stuff than 1 1,000 chip?

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