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      jcs wrote a blog post about being shadow banned from Hacker News, with the lobste.rs launch being discussed on the same at that time.

      You may be interested in citing material I prepared for a presentation in August 2018, even as some of it is out of date. In addition, pushcx published some activity stats in June 2018. From time to time he has published other aggregate or summary data about the community.

      By way of history there is jcs handing the site to pushcx in September 2017 and our doing a fundraiser for the lobster emojii in February 2018. Searching might turn up other material worth citing. It’s up to Wikipedia to decide if any of this or other material folk find is sufficiently noteworthy.

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        Thank you, this is a useful list of possible sources.

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          It’s up to Wikipedia to decide if any of this or other material folk find is sufficiently noteworthy.

          You are Wikipedia. If you think it’s noteworthy then please do add this information to the article. Moderators will tell you if they think it’s inappropriate.

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            Well, yes, and no. When Wikipedia was young it was more or less true that “you are Wikipedia”. Now that it is a fixed part of ’net culture this no longer holds true as Wikipedia is host to a multitude of turf wars where those of differing opinion are soon edited out of existence. While Wikipedia can not exist without active stewards it is a sad fact that these very often look at their area of interest with coloured glasses and do their best to make sure the public does not get ‘wrong’ information from ‘their’ articles.

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          Haskell, but properly. I know the language to a point but trail off when it comes to monads, handling state, and some of the more interesting sides of the language the deeper you get into it.

          I’d like to put more time into learning a language. I know bits and pieces of Japanese, and Lojban (one may be more useful than the other… I believe). Would be nice to have something of a conversation in one of them.

          Would also like to go bouldering outdoors at some point. I’ve been climbing at an indoor gym for about six months now, steadily getting better, and want to give the outdoors a try. If I injure myself at least my other two goals don’t require working legs.

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            The article doesn’t mention just how noisy -sV and particularly -A can be on a network. Especially if you’re in a situation where you don’t want to be lighting yourself up like a Christmas tree (e.g. a pentest, red-teaming, reading your boss’ emails).

            I’d direct anyone straight to the manpage which gives a good overview of the program’s functionality; a lot of which is often overlooked.

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              My ThinkPad T410 running Void Linux: Screenshot

              Pretty simple, utilitarian, setup. Using i3 window manager purely because it’s quick to configure to how I like it, rofi for program start/menu, tint2 for status bar. Terminals are urxvt and a minimal zsh. That’s a radare2 session and a blurry weechat instance ;)

              Used to run OpenBSD on this thing with a very similair setup, but it doesn’t play nice with roaming PEAP when I’m at work. Might go back to it when that’s a bit nicer to set up.

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                Agreed wholeheartedly with everything on this list (esp. Docker and Nix) except for the Code of Conduct line. Sadly, we’re living in a time where assholes need to be explicitly uninvited.

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                  I don’t share the concept of gender with the FreeBSD CoC. When growing up, i observed the world with my own eyes, and found that its an rather arbitrary abstraction not providing value. Should others be allowed to force me to use that concept against my conscience? I’m not rude or disrespectful towards peers (inc. actual transgender persons) because of that.

                  Does that make me an asshole that needs to be explicitly uninvited?

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                    If you do the things that the FreeBSD CoC says you shouldn’t do (calling people by names they’ve explicitly said shouldn’t be used especially) then yes. Otherwise I don’t really see how it affects you?

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                      Having control over the abstractions people use also limits what those people can express. Achilles and the Tortoise is a good illustration of that.

                      Forcing these abstractions over people is what violates their autonomy, which is why the FreeBSD CoC was so controversial in the first place. Its that the proponents argue that you have nothing to fear if you are “a good person”, equating lawfulness with being a good person. Which is fundamentally wrong. Yes, Edward Snowden violated laws, but i doubt he is a bad person because of that.

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                        Can you be more practical, less philosophical, and provide an example of something you’d say, that the CoC would consider wrong? (No bad intentions or hidden agenda in this question, just generally wondering how a real life example of the issue looks like for you).

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                          “/me hugs nullp0tr

                          “You shouldn’t beat your children tho”

                          “I dislike that you program killer robots for the CIA”

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                            Thanks for the examples. I understand your frustration with it a bit more now. How would you deal with someone who’s constantly hugging or backrubbing someone else after being asked to stop? and how does your view on gender affect your empathy towards people with a different view and who get offended by someone who’s constantly using the wrong pronoun?

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                              Constantly harassing another user will get you warned, kicked or even banned with our without a CoC. Worst case (if the channel moderation doesn’t care) is that you need to block/set them on your ignore list.

                              I don’t have an generic attitude on that, and i didn’t have IRL conflicts on pronouns yet. The transgender persons i interacted with were respectable persons and individually got me to use their preferred pronoun without force.

                              Conflict is a component of daily life. Persons who handle conflict by getting offended and expecting others to change their mind are akin to the kid in the mall throwing a tantrum because mom wont buy the gummy bears. That’s just shitty diplomacy and wont get you anywhere. Embodying such an attitude into an community law will make your community a toxic place.

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                                I don’t have an generic attitude on that, and i didn’t have IRL conflicts on pronouns yet. The transgender persons i interacted with were respectable persons and individually got me to use their preferred pronoun without force.

                                So is it okay in your opinion to intentionally use the wrong pronoun if the persons in question were not respectable?

                                Constantly harassing another user will get you warned, kicked or even banned with our without a CoC. Worst case (if the channel moderation doesn’t care) is that you need to block/set them on your ignore list.

                                What’s the difference between having a written rule about what would get you banned and not having one?

                                Conflict is a component of daily life. Persons who handle conflict by getting offended and expecting others to change their mind are akin to the kid in the mall throwing a tantrum because mom wont buy the gummy bears. That’s just shitty diplomacy and wont get you anywhere. Embodying such an attitude into an community law will make your community a toxic place.

                                How would you handle conflicts created by racism, sexism, etc in a non toxic way?

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                                  So is it okay in your opinion to intentionally use the wrong pronoun if the persons in question were not respectable?

                                  If people start interacting with me by insulting me, then i definitely wont let them tell me how to call them.

                                  What’s the difference between having a written rule about what would get you banned and not having one?

                                  Power. Rulemakers wield extraordinary power because they are the ones who interpret a situation as lawful or unlawful. Not getting in trouble with the law is, to an extent, doing good diplomacy with the rulemakers.

                                  How would you handle conflicts created by racism, sexism, etc in a non toxic way? Ideally:

                                  • Tell that i did not find it appropriate, explain why
                                  • Optional discussion, quite often its just an misunderstanding
                                  • Avoid being antagonistic, not calling them sexist or insults (burns bridges instantly)

                                  Best case is that i can base my standpoint upon their values. Using authoritative power to deploy sanctions should always be the last resort.

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                                    If people start interacting with me by insulting me

                                    What are the ways you get insulted? What if someone does it by accident?

                                    If people start interacting with me by insulting me, then i definitely wont let them tell me how to call them.

                                    Didn’t you just say being diplomatic is key?

                                    Persons who handle conflict by getting offended…

                                    I’m confused why you would revert to being a kid in the mall by not calling someone by their preferred pronoun if they insulted you. I agree with your overall idea of being diplomatic.

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                                      Thanks for taking the time to clarify your stand.

                                      It seems you’d rather have an environment of mutual respect and no single/few figures that can decide on what constitutes as wrong doing selectively, and you’d rather solve the issues the FreeBSD CoC tries to address through diplomacy and listening to all parties?

                                      How would you go about implementing your ideal conflict resolution approach in real communities? (alternatively, do you have an example of a community that already does that or something similar?)

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                                        My preference aren’t as exotic at it seems on the first view.

                                        I dont need to implement it on my own, its already live in such an community, an local instance of the Chaos Computer Club in germany. Hacker culture tends to be decentral and skeptical of authorities in general, probably because hackers tend to be persons that value personal autonomy high. Socially adjacent communities (alot of artists here!) and companies share alot of the mindset.

                                        Edit: These communities are also the ones where most positive feedback about my CoC-critical stuff comes from. I think i hit a nerve there that already bothered quite some people

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                              “I think that the memo that James Damore wrote about gender diversity efforts at Google was by and large correct and that Google was wrong to fire him. He should be considered welcome to contribute in good standing to this open-source software project if he so chooses.”

                              Any code of conduct that allowed me to say that sentence is (probably) fine; any code of conduct that treated me saying that sentence as a violation is not fine.

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                                That is a surprisingly good litmus test. Regardless of your actual view on the Damore memo or subsequent furore, a CoC that can penalize you for expressing your view about a person or situation like that is probably overstepping the mark.

                                It’s not whether someone would agree with you that he should be welcome to contribute to a project, it’s whether you are allowed to say it. In that regard I really like it as an overreach test.

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                                  I’ve read the whole memo. I think he gets some things wrong and disagree with him here and there, but I’m glad I read it. Overall he does have a lot of good points, and it does show a big problem with the “leftness” of silicon valley tech culture.

                                  Instead of trying to get more women in STEM/tech, how about we make it more socially acceptable for everyone, both men and women, to go after things they actually like to do. How many people do you know in tech, both men and women, hate their cubeville life. So many people I know, no matter how enthusiastic they might seem at times, deep down, do not like their jobs. We’ve got Dilbert, Office Space, We the Robots and so many other things in entertainment that show how awful these jobs can be. People want to escape.

                                  I feel like there is a lot of pressure on men (and I guess now more on women) to earn enough to provide for a family. We mock people with English or Philosophy degrees with their steamy piles of debt; debt the previous generation would not have had because they could pay for school by working at a grocery store. The cost of education is too high and it’s being turned into a pipeline to the industry that is in demand. The debt locks people in.

                                  Want to solve income inequality? Make everyone’s income public. Every employee knows what every other employee makes and that should be a Federal mandate. Why the fuck is there a taboo over income anyway. If you know what people are worth, you know what you should be wroth. I have a hypothesis that if you could somehow measure confidence, people’s incomes would directly correlate with their confidence level and not their genders.

                                  I think people are locked into a certain political ideology and the false left/right paradigm that they fail to see the real issues are not the issues they’re addressing. Those are symptoms of a much deeper cause.

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                                    I honestly haven’t read the memo. Is it something specific in the memo that you wanna be able to express your agreement with? or do you want to be able to express any opinion regardless of what it entails?

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                                      I’m still overall confused by James Damore’s memo. It was mostly an incoherent mess when I read it. What part was he right about in regards to Google’s gender diversity efforts?

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                                    Ok. What do you do that violates the CoC that isn’t bad? So far all I’ve heard is weird analogies that don’t really make sense. Can you articulate your concrete concerns?

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                                      Not fighting for moral autonomy because you agree with it is analogous to not fighting for free speech because you agree with what the state says.

                                      I do enjoy my moral autonomy, i exercise it, and i expect other people to let me do it. And the FreeBSD CoC says, “not here”. So i avoid FreeBSD.

                                      Like free speech, moral autonomy is an essential part of democratic society (Lawrence Kohlberg: “Moral Development”), even if not everyone needs it.

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                                        Not fighting for moral autonomy because you agree with it is analogous to not fighting for free speech because you agree with what the state says.

                                        This is entirely disingenuous. FreeBSD is not the state, and requiring that contributors to an open source project not express violent prejudice against other contributors in order to be allowed to contribute is not at all similar to state censorship.

                                        I do enjoy my moral autonomy, i exercise it, and i expect other people to let me do it.

                                        Thanks for clarifying. You should realize that this is literally the purpose of CoCs like this one. You value your ability to do whatever you like over the productivity and comfort of others, and that’s not the attitude FreeBSD, Rust etc want in their community, because it tends to decrease productivity and cause burnout, not to mention just being a pain in the ass to work with.

                                        So, yes, I agree with the others in this thread. Please continue to avoid FreeBSD, and if possible, me as well.

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                                          FreeBSD is not the state, and requiring that contributors to an open source project not express violent prejudice against other contributors in order to be allowed to contribute is not at all similar to state censorship.

                                          Would you not avoid a project that required you to limit your freedom of speech simply on principle? Or, if you would not, do you at least understand why someone else might on principle?

                                          The only difference in this example is that you at least have a reasonable choice of simply not using/contributing to FreeBSD if you disagree.

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                                            Would you not avoid a project that required you to limit your freedom of speech simply on principle?

                                            Assuming you don’t mean “freedom of speech” (as in, freedom from state censorship) and actually mean “freedom to say whatever you want, whenever you want, in whatever forum you want”, this question is so broad as to be meaningless. If you DO mean “freedom of speech”, then it is so narrow as to be irrelevant, since the policies of open source projects don’t affect your legal freedom of speech. In either case, you miss the point.

                                            Community standards exist in order to prevent, in specific spaces, behavior that will adversely affect the community that creates them. All communities have standards. Codes of Conduct formalize and write down those standards, and allow people to examine them. If a community with standards by which one did not wish to abide existed and was otherwise appealing, one might join it and be unpleasantly surprised. On the other hand, a CoC allows one to see, up front, the norms and standards of a community. This is good.

                                            Therefore, it seems like @liwakura doesn’t disagree so much with the existence of a CoC as with the community standards many of them encode - in particular, those of the Node.js and FreeBSD communities. Now comes the critical point:

                                            Rather than engage with specific problems in the CoC (e.g., “[specific rule] is open to serious abuse and provides little protection for the accused”, et cetera), liwakura focused on the “restriction of autonomy”. Yes, community standards restrict autonomy. That is the point. They prevent behavior such as the purposeful, spiteful misgendering liwakura described as a likely outcome with a negative interaction with a trans person, or purposeful ignorance (as in, the noun form of “to ignore”, not as in lack of knowledge) of social structure of gender- and sex-based oppression. By preventing those behaviors from being displayed by liwakura in FreeBSD spaces, the CoC has succeeded.

                                            In other words, the CoC says “If you’re going to be a jerk, such as in these specific ways, stay out”, and liwakura’s response was “How dare you tell me that you don’t want me to be a jerk in these specific ways! I’m going to do what you say and not participate in your community, but also whine about it on the Internet.”

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                                              Community standards exist in order to prevent, in specific spaces, behavior that will adversely affect the community that creates them.

                                              From what I’ve seen, the CoC being enforced in these specific spaces does not usually happen - they are enforced outside of those spaces as well. If I say some homophobic stuff on IRC, and it gets screencapped and posted on Twitter, do I get kicked out as a member of Project XYZ that uses a CoC which specifically prohibits that sort of language? Obviously I’ve said it, and there is public record of it - but I wasn’t saying it in context of the project, or to any member of the project, and in a (relatively) private setting. If I’m punished for something like that, then I’ve lost moral autonomy outside of the project.

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                                                I would consider that to be a very arguable case. Is it possible that one’s external behavior will negatively impact the project and its community? Yes. Is your objection about moral autonomy outside the project valid? Also yes.

                                    2. 0

                                      Ok. What do you do that violates the CoC that isn’t bad? So far all I’ve heard is weird analogies that don’t really make sense. Can you articulate your concrete concerns?

                                2. 2

                                  To be fair, I fall between the OP and the parent. Aside from one pre-COC level FreeNAS, I don’t use FreeBSD (which is the example) because of the shitty CoC. I’m not opposed to a well-structured one, but FreeBSD doesn’t appear to have one. Using a product means you condone the producer’s practices. I don’t use Facebook. I’m slowly degoogling my life, and I’m getting rid of Linux. Amazon Prime will be a hard plaster to pull off, but I’m working up to that. I see FreeBSD the same way - I don’t support their CoC implementation, ergo I won’t support the product by using it.

                                  The very fact that any online discussion quickly devolves into poisonous ad-hominem is reason enough for me to be put off by the presence of one, but they can serve a purpose when well implemented (if GNU had a well-designed CoC then the recent Glibc abort() debacle could’ve been handled through it for example). When they’re poorly implemented like with FreeBSD, it’s not properly serving it’s existing community.

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                                    Why are you getting rid of linux?

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                                      It’s a combination of factors, some of which are due to shitshows like systemd, issues with breaking compatibility (e.g. ifconfig) and the realisation after moving to docker that for the most part, I have absolutely no idea what code is running on these systems.

                                      I wrote about this in another comment here: https://lobste.rs/s/yxswhm/what_are_you_self_hosting#c_8reclz

                                      To be fair, a lot of this is a result of my own poor personal choices, but I now feel like I’m fighting Linux to make it do what I want predictably, and not do things I didn’t tell it to do. It’s very reminiscent of MacOS’s shift a few years back.

                                      I’m going to spend some time with Alpine simply because that’s what a lot of my docker containers for public systems run on, but I’m not building new systems to run docker, no longer buying raspberry pis (thanks, binary blobs) and instead of migrating to Linux, I’m migrating a lot of systems to Open and NetBSD. I would’ve chosen FreeBSD, but the CoC debacles mean I’m less comfortable supporting it. My next NAS build may well run Illumos instead.

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                                  I just turn my phone off / on silent / in a small lead box when I want to get on with work. Is this not a common sense solution if you find yourself becoming distracted?

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                                    This doesn’t necessarily work for people who need to be available in case of emergency.

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                                      On iphone (I don’t know for other platforms) you have a DND mode with “favorites” that can still notify you. I’ve been on-call several time and just setting SMS/Phone Call on first method of contact on pager duty + using this DND mode was enough for me to let my phone upside down the whole day and still be notified when I needed to be.