1. 5

    It’s annoying and confusing that this gets upvoted on lobste.rs, then appropriately and predictably slated in the comments. Lobste.rs has proved itself to be a capitalist, democratic, libtertarian-leaning and consciously anti-political community and is entirely ignorant of and unconneced to the realm of politics and social endeavour which is addressed by content like this. Ask a stupid question (i.e. ‘what does lobste’rs think of an anti-capitalist software license?’), get a stupid answer. Politics will only destroy lobste.rs, and if people post this kind of thing here then a #politics tag is critical so that it can be filtered out.

    1. 10

      From reading the comments, the strong impression that I get is that users have very different political backgrounds and opinions, and are generally able to have a thoughtful conversation about those differences.

      1. 6

        I was gonna come in here and complain about the content of the article and how I disagree with it, but you really nailed it on the head here, politics should be banned. It has no place in any online community. Esp one like this. I’ve seen a few forums rot from the inside out because the mods didn’t curb political discussion

        I mean really what does anyone have to gain by talking about politics on an internet forum? Does anyone really think an internet comment from a stranger on the Internet, probably written because they are bored out of their mind and have nothing better to do with their lives, is gonna change their opinion?

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          You are entitled to express these opinions - which are political. I think it is important that you be able to express them, even though as a moderator I disagree with them. Please respect that other people here also have political opinions that it’s important to them to express.

          1. 3

            A stance on keeping politics out is not political in the same way that other things are political, and I think it is disingenuous to treat it as such.

            1. 7

              I’ve been told, as a queer person, that I should devote my life to pretending I don’t exist, because my existence is inherently political. When I refuse to do that, people tell me that I at least shouldn’t mention things that make them think about my queerness. At the same time, they aggressively mention things related to their non-queerness, and I have nothing analogous in my life that I’m allowed to talk about. When I refuse to do that, too… well, there are some people who are unhappy about it, but I don’t care.

              (None of this was stated so clearly, but it’s been repeated a lot, so I’ve had plenty of opportunity to study the reasoning behind it.)

              When people say “no politics”, they mean “nothing that makes me uncomfortable”, and they get to decide what makes them uncomfortable. It is a position that cannot possibly be enforced without harming somebody. Some people would say that “no politics” upholds the status quo, but it’s worse than that. It gives all the power to the person who defines what “politics” is. That person, and nobody else, gets to advocate for whatever changes they want in the world.

              I do appreciate your engaging. I understand that not everyone has witnessed this stuff as vividly as I have, and it must be very tempting to believe that “no politics” is a consistent stance when it’s a stance that doesn’t harm you too much. I understand why it might look disingenuous, and I’m not hurt that you said that, because at the very least it’s a position that I have some obligation to explain. To reiterate, it’s fine to disagree with my position here! I hope I’ve clarified what that position is.

              1. 2

                When people say “no politics”, they mean “nothing that makes me uncomfortable”, and they get to decide what makes them uncomfortable.

                Again, I think you are being reductionist here. There are very much people who aren’t uncomfortable talking about something but who merely want to hold space for the primary content of discussion–in this case, technology.

                It isn’t that political is uncomfortable, it is that most discussion here is going to be of low quality and actionability, and that efforts to bring it up to snuff will take so much space and time (imagine, the amount of space needed to educate the other side on whatever context you think is needed to have informed policy discussions…and that is assuming good-faith efforts to learn!) that it will completely derail and suck the air out of a thread.

                Also, re: “making uncomfortable”…somehow I doubt that charity is going to be extended to political or ideological opponents who disagree with, say, the validity of queerness as an identity or who are ethno-nationalists or what have you. The effective and fair solution is to just direct everybody to take that shit elsewhere (pol or mastodon or wherever feels like a good crowd).

                1. 1

                  My apologies for how long it’s taken to get back to you on this; I’ve been preoccupied. I would be happy to take this topic to a 1:1 chat on IRC or something like that; given how long it’s been, I don’t want to re-ignite the thread by responding here.

                2. 2

                  I would have preferred to discuss this on any other medium.

                  Politics doesn’t make me uncomfortable, now or on any of the many occasions it’s got doors slammed in my face. I’ve always believed it was too important for discomfort to be a consideration. But I also don’t think, given the diverse representation of political views in the thread, that subscribers to any particular political theory need find the subject matter uncomfortable. That’s not the problem I have with politics on the site, and seems like a generalisation stretched too far.

                  My problem with politics relates instead to kindness. Lobste.rs usually manages to be a civil and respectful community. While there are successes you could point to in this thread, there’s also been an unusual level of bad-faith engagement; at least two users even felt it was worth their time to take to the suggestions box to vandalize the tags. Habitually good participants get toxic. People will leave the site, if not because of this submission, then because of the next dozen like it. Politics itself may not be uncomfortable, but the community’s reaction to politics sure as hell is.

                  I’d also invite you to look at this thread and tell me you think progress is being made. Has anyone changed their mind? Has anyone even tried to change minds? Would a spectator look at this and change theirs?

                  Political threads are very engaging because we all want to express an opinion. But I believe that, as a matter of political strategy, they’re terrible at making a difference. The opinions thus expressed are irrelevant to a user so engaged; they need to respond to them, but they don’t need to spend meaningful time to understand. Similarly, the replies, being written to refute rather than to persuade, are unlikely to win many minds.

                  Returning to whether it should be on the site, though, I have one final thought. Your argument against “no politics” could be applied to any forum with a narrow focus—and I think it’s fundamentally okay for some forums to do that. From the angle of convenience, people should be able to browse a site about tech stuff without seeing business news, and I think it’s reasonable to extend that to politics. But, perhaps more importantly, I think this thread stands testament to the fact that the community is not socially equipped to handle heated political discussions. If we continue to entertain them anyway, I fear that the atmosphere will become persistently adversarial. However you frame the line between political and not, every tool available to users was abused here, and I don’t think that should become the norm.

                  Finally, I believe it’s both possible and necessary to address your concerns about erasure, which is a serious and important threat, by more direct means. Politics, generally an accepted topic of public discourse, hasn’t been the only or even primary label used to effect queer erasure over recent decades.

                  1. 3

                    My problem with politics relates instead to kindness. Lobste.rs usually manages to be a civil and respectful community. While there are successes you could point to in this thread, there’s also been an unusual level of bad-faith engagement; at least two users even felt it was worth their time to take to the suggestions box to vandalize the tags. Habitually good participants get toxic. People will leave the site, if not because of this submission, then because of the next dozen like it. Politics itself may not be uncomfortable, but the community’s reaction to politics sure as hell is.

                    I’ve observed this as well but I may have a more pessimistic outlook than you. I genuinely mean this constructively, and I say this with compassion for the users on this site, but my view is that “politics” is not the problem, but rather the culture of this web forum, period. There are plenty of internet communities discuss politics, intentionally or not. I read a few of them, and I’ve been genuinely surprised by the degree to which users on this specific website get triggered by topics that even remotely brush up on politics, ethics, gender, or race.

                    IMO this idea being parroted that “we can’t have politics because it destroys communities” is lazy. I’m not calling people lazy, just the idea. The idea is lazy because there’s absolutely no reason we couldn’t have read this post and had a normal discussion about, say:

                    • how effective are software licenses in general?
                    • do we think this license could achieve it’s goals? why or why not?
                    • are there similar licenses we can compare this to?
                    • do other industries place ethical constraints in their licenses? how has that worked out?

                    It’s not an unreasonable challenge to engage in the interesting bits, and set the search for moral truth aside. Likewise it’s not particularly hard to look at the post, and admit to oneself “I don’t relate to the worldview being expressed here”, and then to move on with your day.

                    When you write:

                    Lobste.rs usually manages to be a civil and respectful community.

                    I honestly don’t see this. I mean sometimes we have purely technical discussions where frankly the opportunity for being rude to one’s peers doesn’t strongly present itself. To me, that’s not the definition of a respectful community. Whether or not the community is respectful, civil, thoughtful is something that I really believe we’ll know when we can have a genuine, thoughtful, respectful discussion on an otherwise contentious topic without folks losing their minds.

                    1. 2

                      There are plenty of internet communities discuss politics, intentionally or not. I read a few of them, and I’ve been genuinely surprised by the degree to which users on this specific website get triggered by topics that even remotely brush up on politics, ethics, gender, or race.

                      IMO this idea being parroted that “we can’t have politics because it destroys communities” is lazy. I’m not calling people lazy, just the idea. The idea is lazy because there’s absolutely no reason we couldn’t have read this post and had a normal discussion about […]

                      There are certainly groups that could have, but I don’t think this is one of them, and I don’t think that’s necessarily a problem. I’d prefer it if we could discuss politics without people losing their minds, sure, but as I said I don’t think the community is socially equipped for that. It’s not alone—I’ll bet many people’s immediate group at work wouldn’t survive many of these conversations—but how unfortunate it is is beside the point. The calibre of a debate is as its least debater, so unless we start being more selective about who we invite, the expectation can only get worse.

                      I think it pertinent that this is a pretty big, and at this point quasi-public, community, with members who are here because they’re interested in tech stuff. By contrast, the forums I’ve seen successfully grappling with political topics have been relatively small, and the members, in many cases, self-selected for their interest in discussing difficult subjects.

                      Incidentally, I think the ability to discuss strictly technical stuff without getting nasty is still an achievement.

                  2. 1

                    I can’t say much to your experience with people avoiding queer topics, but I’d put at least no politics as some kind of self protection from the toll it takes to discuss them. Because in a way I’d also like lobsters not to degrade into a political discussion. There are so many sites I can do that, but I’m here to discuss more on the technical topic. Not watch some ramblings in some general “computer news” site. Having to search for the comments that are actually interesting, because there are so many discussing some political definition.

                    Now obviously that’s not the complete truth, as I’m also interested in GPLv2 vs GPLv3 or the general FOSS stuff. But, and that’s the problem: I don’t and won’t read lengthy posts on left vs right, communism vs capitalism. When it’s starting to repeat itself over and over. I’ve read the stuff in here this time, was interesting to see how the folks here are argument for their opinion. But if we’d do the same thing again tomorrow, I’d just simply ignore the whole post.

                    It’s like the old discussion of people arguing that mozilla could’ve been so great it they didn’t remove that one feature from it, or that it was the straw that let people leave the browser. You can’t prove it, it’s only an opinion, and we’ve heard 99% of the arguments already.. And at that point I’m avoiding the topic.

                    Overall it’s probably a thin line between not arguing too much about politics but also preventing a complete ban. And people arguing against politics probably just want a safe place without all the flame wars, repetitive arguments and so forth. Writing this I think you can call this as agreeing to disagree and thus leaving (fundamental) politics out.

                    1. 3

                      @angrysock has a great term for the difference between these - “is it actionable”.

                      The reason most political discussions are pointless rehashing is there’s no action to take other than rehashing.

                      License discussions are useful to people who release new software - they may take the action of choosing a new license for future releases of their work.

                      “Should Mozilla have disabled XUL” is not actionable. There’s nothing for you to do with that information.

                      “We should be more socialist” is not, in general, actionable (other than at the ballot box / private letters to your local parliamentarian).

                      It’s not “no politics” that we need, it’s “only actionable politics”.

                      1. 1

                        “Actionability” strikes me as an impoverished signal for the health of a discussion. There are so many ways to learn through discussion that don’t involve taking an immediate action as a result.

                        1. 2

                          [edit: removed a statement which could have been more charitable, replaced with]: That’s not at all what I intended to convey.

                          I didn’t say immediate, and gave an explicit example of a long-term future action in a quite short comment.

                          What do you gain from, say, another ten-page thread about systemd? Accurate information on the pros and cons is widely available; new insights are rare amongst the endless rehashing of the same talking points.

                          There are plenty of topics which remain contentious even though practically everyone has the same information available. They don’t generate good discussions because there’s no new information available. Conversely there are topics which are contentious because everyone has their own partial set of information - these tend to start with disagreements and end with someone bringing a really good treatment of the subject to our attention.

                  3. 2

                    Yeah exactly

                    Like in my ideal forum, even stuff from Richard Stallman would be banned. And I’d also ban those articles about how FB is spying on you or whatever. Those types of threads attract armchair sociologists that love to ramble on about what the ideal society is and how people should think morally etc etc. It just becomes a giant trashfire of a thread. Just look at this one it’s 117 comments of people talking about how they love anarchy or whatever. Who cares!!!!!

                3. 2

                  Everything can be “political”.

                  You wouldn’t get triggered by someone presenting a particular way to manage large code base but you get triggered by a discussion how interpersonal relationships are managed by some? It’s both matter of personal aesthetics to a degree and OP did not call for universal adoption.

                  The discussion consisted mostly of efficiency of such a license and it’s necessity, same as a discussion about a monorepo or something similar would proceed.

                  I happen to be an anarchist by conviction, but a capitalist by necessity. I am interested in anarchist tech-related success stories (this is not it).

                4. 2

                  Contamination is important. It is dangerous bubbles in which extreme right-wing ideology is pushed onto neutral spectactors that have not enough critical means to understand what they are subject to. Break the bubble, enter these spaces, show them that they are a small reality and the world is moving forward without them.

                  1. 0

                    I agree in principal but the formula for the potential success or benefit of ‘contamination’ contains some amount of resistance and a possibility of success. If the resistance is extremely strong (see most comments here, so far inside the capitalist box they can’t see the box), and the possibility of success is low (individuals deeply embedded in an ideology, unable and/or unwilling to think outside it, and highly resistant to change, especially in a space they came to talk about other things and ‘feel safe’ in a particular bounded context), then even the most well meaning ‘contamination’ is at best a waste of breath and at worst consciously inciting conflict. The latter is how I’d now categorise political posts on lobste.rs. It’s just not what people are here for.

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                  I was hoping this was a list of careers for when you eventually burn out of web dev.

                  1. 6

                    sighs it’s not just me?

                    I hit this point almost ten years ago and felt so alone.

                    1. 2

                      same. best i found is ML infra or security

                      1. 2

                        i’m very much looking for such too, any lobsters want to write up such an article?

                        1. 2

                          If I had the answers I would. I am glad that there are at least 3-17 other people that are feeling the same.

                          I’ve considered the following: Get out of full stack and focus on the front end (more fun too me, no threading issues, etc) Devil’s DBA Change careers to something unrelated like Ag Banking

                          1. 2

                            Personally, I’d go with a combo of ML and DevSecOps, if you can find it. The combo would give experience in several powerful and upcoming career opportunities, and if it fell apart you could always use the skills learned in a re-fashoined combination, like ML and Security.

                            1. 2

                              The combo would give experience in several powerful and upcoming career opportunities

                              At least as long as people think machine learning is a hammer and every problem is a nail.

                              Brian Kernighan briefly mentions the excitement about it in the early days of computing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9upVbGSBFo

                              1. 1

                                I completely agree. Don’t get me started about ML and AI (or lack of AI)

                                But people think that way, and those people are doing the hiring. I was answering the question “Where is the most money and career challenges?” There’s a better question, imo, which is: What kind of work would I enjoy doing in five years? I have no basis to even start on that one.

                                Having said that, as somebody who has suffered through server/cloud deployments and maintenance over and over again, DevSecOps is pretty cool. When I think about all the tech that keeps calling me to go play and learn more, DevSecOps is probably in the top five.

                            2. 1

                              I specialized into compilers and security. There’s a lot of work out there.

                              1. 2

                                I agree there’s no shortage of bug reports for compilers (0, 1, 2, 3) but the number of paid compiler jobs I saw in the last decade is probably less than 10…

                        1. 6

                          It is simple (and cheap) to run your own mail server, they even sell them pre baked these days as the author wrote.

                          What is hard and requires time is server administration (security, backups, availability, …) and $vendor black-holing your emails because it’s Friday… That’s not so hard that I’d let someone else read my emails, but YMMV. :)

                          1. 8

                            not so hard that I’d let someone else read my emails

                            Only if your correspondants also host their own mail. Realistically, nearly all of them use gmail, so G gets to read all your email.

                            1. 4

                              I have remarkably few contacts on GMail, so G does not get to read all my email, but you’re going to say that I’m a drop in the ocean. So be it.

                              1. 4

                                you’re going to say that I’m a drop in the ocean. So be it.

                                I don’t know what gave you that impression. I also host my own email. Most of my contacts use gmail. Some don’t. I just don’t think you can assume that anyone isn’t reading your email unless you use pgp or similar.

                                1. 1

                                  Hopefully Autocrypt adoption will help.

                                  1. 2

                                    This is the first time I’m hearing of Autocrypt. It looks like just a wrapper around PGP encrypted email?

                                    1. 1

                                      This is a practice described by a standard, that help widspread use of PGP : by flowing the keys all all around.

                                      What if every cleartext email you received did already have a public PGP key attached to it, and that the mail client of everyone was having its own key, and did like so: sending the keys on every new cleartext mail?

                                      Then you could answer to anyone with a PGP-encrypted message, and write new messages to everyone encrypted? That would bring a first level where every communication is encrypted with some not-so-string model where you exchanged your keys by whispering out every byte of the public key in base64 to someone’s ear alone in alaska, but as a first step, you brought many more people to use PGP.

                                      I think that is the spirit, more info on https://autocrypt.org/ and https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=Jvznib8XJZ8

                                      1. 2

                                        Unless I misunderstand, this still doesn’t encrypt subject lines or recipient addresses.

                                        1. 1

                                          Like you said. There is an ongoing discussion for fixing it for all PGP at once, including Autocrypt as a side effect, but this is a different concern.

                              2. 1

                                Google gets to read those emails, but doesn’t get to read things like password reset emails or account reminders. Google therefore doesn’t know which email addresses I’ve used to give to different services.

                              3. 4

                                Maybe I’m just out of practice, but last time I set up email (last year, postfix and dovecot) the “$vendor black-holing your emails” problem was the whole problem. There were some hard-to-diagnose problems with DKIM, SPF, and other “it’s not your email, it’s your DNS” issues that I could only resolve by sending emails and seeing if they got delivered, and even with those resolved emails that got delivered would often end up in spam folders because people black-holed my TLD, which I couldn’t do anything about. As far as I’m concerned, email has been effectively embraced, extended, and extinguished by the big providers.

                                1. 4

                                  This was my experience when I set up and ran my own email server: everything worked perfectly end to end, success reports at each step … until it came time to the core requirement of “seeing my email in someone’s inbox”. Spam folder. 100% of the time. Sometimes I could convince gmail to allow me by getting in their contact/favorite list, sometimes not.

                                  1. 1

                                    I wonder how much this is a domain reputation problem. I’ve hosted my own email for well over a decade and not encountered this at all, but the domain that I use predates gmail and has been sending non-spam email for all that time. Hopefully Google and friends are already trained that it’s a reputable one. I’ve registered a different domain for my mother to use more recently (8 or so years ago) and that she emails a lot of far less technical people than most of my email contacts and has also not reported a problem, but maybe the reputation is shared between the IP and the domain. I do have DKIM set up but I did that fairly recently.

                                    It also probably matters that I’ve received email from gmail, yahoo, hotmail, and so on before I’ve sent any. If a new domain appears and sends an email to a mail server, that’s suspicious. If a new domain appears and replies to emails, that’s less suspicious.

                                    1. 2

                                      Very possible. In my case I’d migrated a domain from a multi-year G-Suite deployment to a self-hosted solution with a clean IP per DNSBLs, SenderScore, Talos, and a handful of others I’ve forgotten about. Heck, I even tried to set up the DNS pieces a month in advance – PTR/MX, add to SPF, etc. – in the off chance some age penalty was happening.

                                      I’m sure it’s doable, because people absolutely do it. But at the end of the day the people I cared about emailing got their email through a spiteful oracle that told me everything worked properly while shredding my message. It just wasn’t worth the battle.

                                2. 3

                                  That’s not so hard that I’d let someone else read my emails

                                  Other than your ISP and anyone they peer with?

                                  1. 2

                                    I have no idea how bad this is to be honest, but s2s communications between/with major email providers are encrypted these days, right? Yet, if we can’t trust the channel, we can decide to encrypt our communication too, but that’s leading to other issues unrelated to self-hosting.

                                    Self-hosting stories with titles like “NSA proof your emails” are probably a little over sold 😏, but I like to think that [not being a US citizen] I gain some privacy by hosting those things in the EU. At least, I’m not feeding the giant ad machine, and just that feels nice.

                                    1. 7

                                      I’m a big ‘self-hosting zealot’ so it pains me to say this…

                                      But S2S encryption on mail is opportunistic and unverified.

                                      What I mean by that is: even if you configure your MTA to use TLS and prefer it; it really needs to be able to fall back to plaintext given the sheer volume of providers who will both: be unable to recieve and unable to send encrypted mails, as their MTA is not configured to do encryption.

                                      It is also true that no MTA I know of will actually verify the TLS CN field or verify a CA chain of a remote server..

                                      So, the parent is right, it’s trivially easy to MITM email.

                                      1. 3

                                        So, the parent is right, it’s trivially easy to MITM email.

                                        That is true, but opportunistic and unverified encryption did defeat passive global adversaries or a passive MITM. These days you have to become active as an attacker in order to read mail, which is harder to do on a massive scale without leaving traces than staying passive. I think there is some value in this post-Snowden situation.

                                        1. 1

                                          What I’ve done in the past is force TLS on all the major providers. That way lots of my email can’t be downgraded, even if the long tail can be. MTA-STS is a thing now though, so hopefully deploying that can help too. (I haven’t actually done that yet so I don’t actually know how hard it is. I know the Postfix author said implementation would be hard though.)

                                    2. 1

                                      I get maybe 3-4 important emails a year (ignoring work). The rest is marketing garbage, shipping updates, or other fluff. So while I like the idea of self hosting email, I have exactly zero reason to. Until it’s as simple as signing up for gmail, as cheap as $0, and requires zero server administration time to assure world class deliverability, I will continue to use gmail. And that’s perfectly fine.

                                      1. 7

                                        Yeah, I don’t want self-hosted email to be the hill I die on. The stress/time/energy of maintaining a server can be directed towards more important things, IMO

                                    1. 29

                                      I cannot help myself but to imagine a open source ideas incubator governed by:

                                      Antirez, Linus, Mike Pall (LuaJit), Rich Hickey (Clojure)

                                      Perhaps, they would find it difficult to work together, but they all have something in common:

                                      1. They cannot be easily manipulated
                                      2. they do not want to manipulate others
                                      3. They are visionaries
                                      4. They express themselves through software (on both technical and conceptual levels)
                                      5. They work very hard, for very long time, based on a believe and passion alone
                                      6. They are not afraid to challenge ‘status quo’

                                      The combination of the above, perhaps is rare, and finding a way to explore their combined wisdoms, quirks, and talents – would be very neat and beneficial to society as a whole.

                                      If such a cooperative is successful, I would also hope that they would figure out a way to find the next generation of folks so that the process continues.

                                      1. 5

                                        I like it, but maybe sub Mike Pall with Roberto Ierusalimschy because he seems to meet all the same criteria except has a wider range of projects he’s involved in and presents lots of white papers and research around his projects. [1]

                                        No offence to Mike Pall, of course, LuaJIT is still alien software in my book and “he” still could be an anonymous group of genius computer scientists sharing a pseudonym afaik.

                                        [1] - http://www.inf.puc-rio.br/%7Eroberto/cvpub.html

                                        1. 3

                                          Why are there no women in this list?

                                          1. 47

                                            While I agree with the sentiment, I think the short question comes off as aggressive. Instead, you can make a suggestion to avoid putting all of the onus on the previous commenter.

                                            For example, “I noticed your list doesn’t have any women. What about ___ or ___? They have a proven track record on $PROJECT.”

                                            It brings attention to talented women in the industry and provides people with a jumping off point to learn about their accomplishments. Asking questions calls attention to biases, but it doesn’t always inform.

                                            1. 10

                                              Some random posters list if 4 of their favorite open source project leaders doesn’t need to add a token woman. Asking politely would have made it harder to see how completely ridiculous this is.

                                              1. -1

                                                You mistakenly assumed the sentiment is to call out a user instead of pointing out the systems that have led to there not being a lot of women for them to include.

                                                The question is about why there aren’t comparably a lot of women noted in open source and not meant to call out OP directly.

                                                Y’all are being defensive where it isn’t needed and taking this personally instead of as a time to reflect on why open source culture is how it is and how behaviors in the current system are the problem.

                                                Honestly, with 23 upvotes and 22 downvoting and having to share your defense, all we’ve done instead is identify the problem even more concretely than would have happened if y’all would have taken the comment for what it was and not for what it wasn’t.

                                                For those of you labeling this as “off-topic” specifically, I would argue that it isn’t. I’m asking about a list in response to a comment about a list. The list is the topic in context of this thread.

                                                Hopefully this comes to fruition, because it’s unfortunately too relevant here. https://lobste.rs/s/lpvcsm/proposal_for_moderation_policies_no_tone

                                                1. 5

                                                  Y’all are being defensive where it isn’t needed and taking this personally instead of as a time to reflect on why open source culture is how it is and how behaviors in the current system are the problem.

                                                  If you wanted people to reflect on it, then posting a pointed question is not the way to go. Something similar to this would have been waaay better at getting people to think:

                                                  I’d love to see a few women contributors on that list too. Do you know any who would fit that team?

                                                  I’m not here to tone police comments because I actually agree with you that we should encourage women to join us in these endeavours, but you are not helping that cause. You are creating division by using bad wording and being more focused on being “correct”. Take this loss and let the issue die down. The trenches have already been dug here.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    If you wanted people to reflect on it, then posting a pointed question is not the way to go. Something similar to this…:

                                                    I’d love to see a few women contributors on that list too. Do you know any who would fit that team?

                                                    Your new question here has absolutely nothing to do with the one that was posted. monokrome was not looking for someone to offer up the name of a woman in tech, but to discuss the reasons why there might not be one on the list in the first place.

                                                    I’m not here to tone police comments

                                                    Seems to me that not only are you here to tone police, but also to police the content of the comment; to divert away from a meaningful and difficult discussion of under-representation (which you have no obligation to participate in), and instead re-frame it as a pedestrian question of “could someone please identify a women in tech”.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      discuss the reasons why there might not be [a female programmer] on the list in the first place.

                                                      Why should this discussion happen on lobste.rs? I thought we only allow content related to programming?

                                                  2. 3

                                                    Well, it seems that I misunderstood your comment here. I imagine that many others did too. I think that is the key issue here. Having a comment that explicitly calls out the system instead of the list would have made a difference for me. Calling out just the list makes it seem like the problem is with the person who created the list.

                                                    As for tone policing, I do believe systemic biases exist and need to be discussed. However, I think the way we discuss them is important.

                                                    I like lobsters a lot and I don’t like seeing discussions devolve into a locked in flame war. My comment was meant to provide constructive feedback and to take air away from destructive comments. My goal isn’t to prevent you from speaking, but to make it easier for your to be heard, if that makes sense.

                                                2. 32

                                                  Cynical answer: building rep in the open source world takes a lot of time, and it’s been historically so woman-hostile that women haven’t been given a chance to build serious rep.

                                                  Hopeful answer: Jessie Frazelle, maybe? My niche is dominated by academics so I don’t know a lot of FLOSS names outside of formal methods.

                                                  1. 6

                                                    Speaking of Jessie Frazelle, I’ve recently learnt that she’s teaming up with a few other brilliant people at https://oxide.computer/, where you’ll find (among others) Bryan Cantrill and Steve Klabnik.

                                                    1. 3

                                                      Well, that’s cool :)

                                                    2. 12

                                                      Even the women who have built names for themselves in tech, are less likely to be known by men. So there’s that. I can think of a bunch of amazing people but not specifically in open source…

                                                      1. 8

                                                        Strange assumption. What are open-source projects run by women that people should know about?

                                                        1. 30

                                                          Cynical comment: Not identifying as a woman, but having “seen some things” over the years, I can’t help but think that some of the reasons we don’t find so many woman leading open source (surely there are many, though!) is because it’s dangerous to put yourself out there as a woman. How many sexual violence threats do you think a woman would receive if they were the maintainer of Redis, very opinionated, and shutdown ideas because they didn’t fit the direction she wanted to take? I bet the number is not 0.

                                                          1. 11

                                                            You-ain’t-seen-cynical-yet comment: How many death threats do you think a man receives if they’re the maintainer of Redis, very opinionated, etc? The number is very not 0. Anyone who has ever done anything significant has been on the receiving side of some harassment. Today’s effortless communication magnifies the effect, but I’m sure there were people writing “Ο Ευριπίδης τρώει σκατά” on the walls in 420 BC. The difference is whether you let it derail you. The successful ones are the ones who ignore that shit. So why do those who persevere tend to be “privileged”? A very simple psychological reason. Perceived-privilege means having no other face-saving option. If you bail out from a visible position after receiving some harassment and you say “I quit because I felt threatened as a woman” or “I quit because I felt threatened as a person of color” or whatever, there’s a fair chance you’ll be the subject of articles praising your heroism in exposing the harsh reality faced by members of $GROUP who dare to lead. Do the same thing as a straight white male, and, well, you’re a quitter. The narrative expects success from you, it expects you to keep your problems to yourself, and you’d better not have any insecurities. Underdogs are expected to battle with self-doubt; on you, it’s childish and absurd, so forge ahead or be a failure forever.

                                                            1. 9

                                                              Or maybe it’s because those groups are often at risk in their every day life and take threats on themselves seriously due to past experience?

                                                              1. 2

                                                                That would be a pretty big mistake. Regardless of who you are, the supply of people willing to make threats still outnumbers the supply of people capable of carrying them out a million to one. The harm here comes from labels themselves.

                                                                1. 15

                                                                  I think you’re arguing in good faith, so I’ll provide a good faith response. The problem isn’t one of existence but degree. I’ve been the target of internet outrage mobs and serial harassers, and both are terrifying. I lived through them, yes, but it’s absolutely awful to have someone constantly email you screeds from new, unblocked email addresses about how you’re awful and deserve to die. I’m also a straight (((white))) male and have only really gotten attacked over things I wrote, not my identity. Would I have muscled through it and continued writing if I had gotten 10x the amount of online harassment? I don’t know, maybe I would have managed, maybe it would have been too much for me. But there’s certainly some magnitude of abuse that would have gotten me to stop drawing attention to myself. Women and minorities get more abuse online, so it’s more likely to cross that line.

                                                                  Summary: everybody has tolerance level, there’s probably no significant difference in what the tolerance level is for men and women, but women get so much more abuse online it’s more likely to cross that tolerance level.

                                                                  1. 3

                                                                    Different people do have different tolerance levels; it’s easy to see that some people withstand massive abuse, and some don’t, and the differentiating factor is self-esteem, or confidence, or arrogance, however you want to interpret it. So why do the ones with that confidence tend to look alike? Freely granted, one reason is because there is injustice in the world, and a track record of success builds confidence.

                                                                    But that can’t be all either, and here is where my dark fear lies: by labeling people as disadvantaged, we disadvantage them. Psychology is a terribly powerful force. If you believe that the problems you face are the same problems shared by all human beings, trying to make something of our lives in an indifferent universe, then any successful human being can be a role model to draw strength from. If you believe that your problems are special, that only a few share your circumstances enough to understand, then you’re reliant on a role model who is “like you”. That mode of thinking used to be the province of moody teenagers, and growing past it was the sign of an adult — but now it’s just normal, and labeling strongly encourages it. All I want is a world where people tell themselves “I am a human being. I have been blessed with intelligence that can overcome any problem. I cannot ask for any more.”

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      So, is your solution is to just ignore the problem and not talk about it? If so, I think that there has been enough proof to show that only makes the problem worse.

                                                                      1. 2

                                                                        No, just the opposite. If I just wanted to ignore problems and not talk about things, I think I could do that perfectly well on my own, without the aid of the internet. But because I have a foolish compulsion to try to make a positive difference in the world and help other human beings, you see me here. Thankfully for all involved, mostly that compulsion expresses itself as tens of thousands of hours of technical volunteering, but occasionally a bit of freelance philosophizing bubbles up. Agree with me or disagree with me, but kindly don’t misrepresent me.

                                                              2. 5

                                                                Less death threats than a woman receives. I’ve had multiple people threaten to murder me just because I was streaming video games on Twitch, and I’ve never had more than a dozen or so viewers. If a woman was maintaining something as big as Redis, they’d be getting more death threats than Antirez.

                                                                Nobody should be getting death threats, but that’s just the truth.

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  I think it’s much more likely that people quit silently all the time, whether they’re URMs or not. It just doesn’t get publicized so much, so it’s not as visible. But when people quit publicly, it’s much more visible, so it’s what we tend to focus on.

                                                              3. 3

                                                                I am choosing not to answer this because (1) it’s beside the point, and (2) as I said in the remark you’re replying to, nothing comes to mind. I’m not clear why you felt the need to ask for something that I already said I don’t have.

                                                              4. 2

                                                                Yeah, the way women are treated in open source doesn’t help the situation.

                                                              5. 1

                                                                I was hoping people would see it this way but it seems everybody takes it defensively instead of identifying problems. Thanks for not being one of them :)

                                                              6. 11

                                                                What do you hope to gain by asking such a pointed question that comes across as very aggressive?

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    To be clear: This is not trolling or off topic. This is a reply to a post that directly mentions the comment which it was replying to, and the content that this comment represents is exactly the kind of content that the link represents. I am not trolling, but want you to be aware that this behavior is being noticed.

                                                                    The constant flagging of comments only proves that flags can’t be used to do anything like banning people, because people are too immature, defensive, and unreasonable to flag properly.

                                                                1. 33

                                                                  And here you see why Antirez wants out.

                                                                  1. 13

                                                                    Exactly, too many people in the industry spend their time stirring up controversy. Those folk do not provide solutions and just cause people like Antirez problems and a heacache. They complain and paint people that provide tremendous benefit to the company in a bad light.

                                                                  2. 18

                                                                    Go ahead, make your nomination.

                                                                    1. 11

                                                                      Why are there no Uzbekistanis on this list?

                                                                      1. 28

                                                                        Алекса́ндра Аса́новна Элбакя́н isn’t Uzbekistani but Kazakhstani (so not part of the usual US/Europe community), but definitely matches the criteria in the list, through Sci Hub challenges the status quo in ways that - in the long term - may exceed even Linus’ contributions and is even a woman (see the question up-thread for why that matters). So, there’s my nomination.

                                                                        1. 3

                                                                          I don’t know, in the long run, if Sci Hub will be more influential than Linux. But as of 2020 it’s absolutely more influential than Redis, LuaJIT, and Clojure.

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            Hahaha, thank you for this answer :)

                                                                          2. 4

                                                                            Uzbekistanis make up 0.4% of the world population. Women make up ~50% of it.

                                                                            1. -2

                                                                              Women make up ~50% of it.

                                                                              What are you implying exactly?

                                                                          3. 1

                                                                            Because Redis, Linux, LuaJit, nor Clojure were made by women.

                                                                            1. -9

                                                                              Because none of them has come out as trans yet.

                                                                              1. 6

                                                                                Per my sister comment, I don’t think a short, quipy comment helps further this discussion. This comment thread is potentially sensitive and I do not think we should escalate it.

                                                                                1. 6

                                                                                  There is nothing we as users can do. This site is just going to continue going down the shitter unless the admins/mods start enforcing rules, or replacing the terrible, terrible, upvote-comment-tree comment format with a traditional forum layout. If I was running this site, I would ban this person (and everyone who wrote a snarky reply) for 7 days, leave the comment in-tact, and prevent people from replying to it. It’s simple and gets the message across.

                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                    Could you link to the comment you’re referring to? I can see a couple candidates and don’t want to misunderstand you by guessing.

                                                                                    Also, what specific rule would you like to see added and enforced?

                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                      “Why are there no women in this list?” is rather passive aggressive and in no way constructive, I think it warrants a temp-ban. It’s a zero effort cheap shot. Look at the comments that spawned from it. Would be a tragedy if lobste.rs became like HN, Reddit, or, godforbid, Twitter. </2 cents>

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        Not to mention that the poster’s Twitter account is suspended – that takes some effort.

                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                          moved reply to meta thread for the sake of conversation there: https://lobste.rs/s/lpvcsm/proposal_for_moderation_policies_no_tone#c_fu0xzl

                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                          Sorry I shouldn’t have used the word “rule”. I don’t think specific rules are strictly necessary. All I’m saying is, you’re admin, it’s your site, you have all the power and can do basically whatever you want. I feel like punishing the bad actors in a public way would fix a lot of things.

                                                                                          SomethingAwful and Facepunch had pretty good mod teams and tooling if you want something to go off of.

                                                                                        3. 1

                                                                                          Well, now we know why N64N64 isn’t a mod.

                                                                                      2. 2

                                                                                        What is your problem?

                                                                                    2. 2

                                                                                      RMS fails the second criteria? If not, why did you choose not to include him?

                                                                                      1. 25

                                                                                        I can imagine those four working well together. I cannot imagine them working well with RMS.

                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                          This comment is especially funny when juxtaposed with https://lobste.rs/s/gigoo8/end_redis_adventure#c_tf95fm - as RMS is well known for his ‘gross’ approach to sexual advances.

                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                          While I understand the idea, I wonder whether such a thing is in general a good idea. You know, when someone is good and successful at X, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are also good at making others good and successful at X.

                                                                                          This is based on a complete assumption. What if these people got successful because they went their own road. I think that’s what these people have in common. Following the steps of one of them closely (which might be the main thing they can provide) might be the complete opposite.

                                                                                          Without wanting to go too far from that thought, I also see that in day to day work, that is people assuming they do the right thing based on someone else having done the same thing. While this of course might be true and is a good approach in many situations, it might not be.

                                                                                        1. -10

                                                                                          I support colonialism.

                                                                                          1. 7

                                                                                            Uh, what?

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              I own a .io domain.

                                                                                          1. 31

                                                                                            It’s the fast path toward putting “full stack developer” on your resumé.

                                                                                            1. 15

                                                                                              This type of answer belongs in HN. Let us keep this community different.

                                                                                              1. 0

                                                                                                This should be the accepted answer.

                                                                                                1. 9

                                                                                                  This is not SO and even there it’d be marked off-topic :P

                                                                                                  1. 0

                                                                                                    Glad you enjoyed my joke ;)

                                                                                                    1. 21

                                                                                                      This is not about joking, this is about keeping the comments section on lobsters different than the popular communities where it’s much easier to say snarky one-liner than giving a thoughtful answer. The fact that /u/idrougge post is the most popular post in this comment section might show how “mainstream” lobsters is getting and reflect how I generally feel lately about this site.

                                                                                                      1. -8

                                                                                                        Something something upvote comment trees bad, forum good.

                                                                                                        1. 10

                                                                                                          This is unfortunate that instead of addressing anything I said you resort to sarcasm and do exactly what I’m pointing out about this comment tree.

                                                                                                          1. 4

                                                                                                            This is so poignant, I had to interject. Because @N64N64 is actually pointing to the root cause of Lobsters’ decline, just in such an inarticulate way that you missed the point… as did all eight of the downvoters that caused the comment (and any response to it, including this one) to become hidden by default. I always expand these, myself. And I generally read lobste.rs/newest and keep an eye on the mod log, because I’ve been around a bit and am firmly convinced that popularity points are actively harmful to thoughtful discussion. They incentivize the bad behaviors you and I both know too well from Those Other Sites and don’t want on this one. Reordering the comments by popularity just accelerates this bad pattern, as well as obfuscating the natural temporal ordering of a conversation, and perpetuating the weird notion that one only responds to a single comment at a time. So yes, upvote-ordered comment trees are bad, and the older and plainer style of forums are really better, although probably not the best possible form.

                                                                                                            We can shake our fists and demand that newcomers discipline themselves against their conditioning, but I fear that we’re pissing in the wind. Ultimately, Lobsters will devolve into just another snark tank, and those of us who need something better will go find it somewhere else.

                                                                                              1. -10

                                                                                                fuck php

                                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                                  I don’t think I have a #1 but these have been my favorite so far:

                                                                                                  • iOS jailbreak stuff
                                                                                                  • LuaJIT
                                                                                                  • Game engines
                                                                                                  • Gameboy emulator
                                                                                                  • 3DS homebrew
                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                    Wow that’s pretty cool.I remember jailbreaking my iphone way back in 2010 and using cydia. It was very handy

                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                    I use Ubuntu, because I’m emotionally attached to the Debian package management system (my first Linux install was Debian from floppies on a 386 with 4MB of RAM). Ubuntu strikes the right balance of usability and power for me.

                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                      I use Ubuntu, because I’m emotionally attached to the Debian package management system


                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                      I don’t care about security. Maybe I’m ignorant.

                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                        You’d be ignorant if you didn’t learn anything about it. I suggest doing your research first, then slipping into apathy and nihilism!

                                                                                                      1. 23

                                                                                                        The reactions here are disappointing. I can understand the frustration of their Android and API users, but the idea that the developers owe anyone an apology for choosing to take the opportunity to cash in on their hard work and hopefully get a chance to take a breath from the stress of running your own small business is incredulous. I’m incredibly happy for the team.

                                                                                                        1. 9

                                                                                                          I disagree.

                                                                                                          This type of thing hurts the whole software industry by making it look like we’re all a bunch of fly by night shysters out to make a quick buck, and we’ll throw users under the bus as soon as we see dollar signs.

                                                                                                          It acts to devalue software in general because nobody wants to buy something that’s likely to be shutdown arbitrarily.

                                                                                                          To be fair, the problem is with the companies doing the acquiring, and I can understand why smaller companies sell out. In this case, Apple has resources to develop their own weather app, distribute with iOS, and crush them out of existance. It wouldn’t even be the first time, and I’m sure Dark Sky knows that.

                                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                                            I can agree with the sentiment. I too would like to see more viable independent software companies.

                                                                                                            When I read these opinions though, I can’t help but feel that the difficulty of making ends meet, not to mention a comfortable living, as one of these small developers is being overlooked. Selling out here might be contributing to the problem, but it also might be the only way in this ecosystem for these people to get a break.

                                                                                                            I wonder, how many of the people making judgmental comments have actually had a go at building a small independent software company themselves, or even worked for one for that matter?

                                                                                                            Also, Dark Sky has been around since 2011, 9 years of work is hardly a run at making “a quick buck”.

                                                                                                          2. 7

                                                                                                            Many of the users they’re shutting out are paying users so yes, they owe an apology to them.

                                                                                                            1. 13

                                                                                                              They definitely owe an apology, if not more than that. If you want Android users to be happy for them, they should display empathy for the users they are leaving behind. I can understand that the company would be happy to get paid off, but the idea that users owe the company gratitude for abandoning them is ridiculous.

                                                                                                              These “our incredible journey” posts are almost always tone deaf, and this one is no exception.

                                                                                                              1. 14

                                                                                                                I don’t think the users owe them gratitude any more than they owe anyone an apology. They worked to provide a service for people and have now decided to do something different with their lives. The idea that paying a 3$ a year subscription entitles you to an apology if the people behind it decide to change course is preposterous.

                                                                                                                1. 7

                                                                                                                  I agree with your general sentiment, but….

                                                                                                                  API users are not just paying $3 a year. They’re also paying with their time. They had to learn/integrate the API, and now that it’s deprecated, they will have to unlearn/remove the API integrations. Probably worth a few thousand in person-hours.

                                                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                                                    Probably worth a few thousand in person-hours.

                                                                                                                    Assuming “a few thousand” == 3000, you’re saying it will take an entire 6 person dev team a whole quarter to move off this API?

                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                      Huh? $3,000 / ($150/hr) = 20 hr.

                                                                                                                      Edit: Oh. I see what you mean. I’m dumb. 😅

                                                                                                                    2. 2

                                                                                                                      What is the draw of their API versus NOAA’s? I don’t know the domain well so I’m curious.

                                                                                                                    3. 1

                                                                                                                      It’s nobodys fault but theirs that they decided that $3/yr was a good idea for a premium subscription. I would have paid at least that much per month for the service, personally.

                                                                                                                1. 8

                                                                                                                  Youtube -> Peertube

                                                                                                                  This all depends on how you define ‘using’ Youtube. If by ‘using’ you mean ‘watching content distributed through’ you’re bound to whatever channel the publisher uses, Youtube included. If you mean ‘distributing content’ it is fairly easy to get away from Youtube by just not using it. Use Peertube or a similar platform instead. The more people go this way, the more viable these platforms become.

                                                                                                                  Android -> Android without the Google bits

                                                                                                                  Going from a stock Android to the Apple world just means submitting to another master. Android can be used without Google-specific bits, I’ve been doing this for close to a decade now and have never felt the need to succumb to the lures of Google. I can do way more with my devices running AOSP-derived distributions than those around me who still insist on submitting to the whims of Apple. On top of that I get to pay less than a quarter for what I consider to be superior performance, there is far more choice, the devices can be repurposed due to the flexibility of the software, there is no risk of the thing suddenly refusing to work because of an update which checks whether I have used third-party parts to repair the thing, etc. Frankly I find it baffling that so many people just blindly walk into this type of bondage.

                                                                                                                  Gmail -> self-hosted mail

                                                                                                                  I’ve hosted my own mail server for 24 years and see no reason to stop doing so. In that time I went from Sendmail to Exim, from spam not being anything worth mentioning to spam not being a problem due to the well-functioning filtering (graylistd, spamassassin, some specific user/domain related blacklists) and my practice of using recipient-specific addresses for commercial and institutional correspondence. I might see one piece of spam per week in my inbox which I move to the ‘SPAM-it’ folder from where sa-trainer picks it up to train the filter. Hosting my own mail means nobody gets to run their harvesters over this treasure trove of information, it means I can do interesting things with sieve etc. It also means I can move from one ISP to the other, from one country to the other without the risk of losing my mail address.

                                                                                                                  Google search -> Searx

                                                                                                                  This is a no-brainer, just run a Searx instance and point it at whatever sources you deem worthy. If you don’t want to run your own instance there are plenty of publicly accessible Searx instances to choose from.

                                                                                                                  Google Drive -> Nextcloud or Owncloud

                                                                                                                  Another no-brainer for me, I have my own server with my own storage with my own content on my own domain so I see no reason to involve any third party here. The same server runs mail, web, search, media, telephony, etc. One server to rule them all and in the closet-under-the-stairs bind them.

                                                                                                                  Google Maps -> ~OsmAnd (open street maps)

                                                                                                                  As to whether OsmAnd can be used to replace Google Maps depends on where you live since Open Street Maps has a varying level of coverage and accuracy for different regions. For me here in Sweden it generally works fine. For those few occasions it doesn’t I can always fall back on a web-based version of some mapping service - Google or otherwise - running in a private tab.

                                                                                                                  Android Pay -> [nothing]

                                                                                                                  I don’t use mobile devices for financial transactions, I prefer to pay with cash or cards. The harder the push for electronic-only payment, the more reticent I become in using it. Cash has no memory.

                                                                                                                  I never had a Chromebook since I never saw it as a viable platform - why buy a device which is tied so intimately to a single vendor when I can just run a browser on any device I want and point it anywhere I want to? I’ve been using Linux since the days of SLS so I’ve become rather fond of my freedom, thank you…

                                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                                    Youtube -> peertube is fine unless you make money from your content, in which case it’s a non-starter.

                                                                                                                    Quite a bit of the rest involves spending more recreational time on system administration than I’m keen on (and I say this as someone with a freebsd box, an ubuntu box, a windows box, a mac, a custom DHCP setup, and a bunch of VMs running things).

                                                                                                                    so I’ve become rather fond of my freedom

                                                                                                                    I retain, at all times, the freedom to go and set this stuff up. I’m always free to use a free software stack. To me, that’s the important freedom - I don’t have to exercise it in everything I do to keep it.

                                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                                      To be frank the PeerTube suggestion is ridiculous. Even if you don’t care about making money and just want people to watch your vids, it’s not a good option. YouTube is too deeply entrenched.

                                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                                        Well, I use it, it works, video gets distributed to those who want to see video and now that I added the capability to stream audio-only versions it can be used to stream lectures to bandwidth-starved mobile devices as well. If your definition of “ridiculous” equates to “is not Youtube” you’re right but fortunately most other people don’t think in this way, just like “not Windows” was not a good reason to shun Linux, “not IBM” did not stand in the way of Amdahl, “not UNIX” never stopped GNU and “not a typewriter” did not thwart WordStar.

                                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                                          Take a look at the video in this article:


                                                                                                                          Personally, I was thoroughly surprised how well it works and integrates in HTML, I had no idea PeerTube is so advanced. With that, I see no reason to claim “it’s not a good option”.

                                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                                            It ain’t 2009 no more, desktop isn’t the dominant platform for watching internet vids. There are tons of other platforms which unfortunately are all walled gardens and do not have a great web browser experience. But they have a YouTube app though (sometimes preinstalled!)

                                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                                              Peertube support is starting to show up in apps for those platforms as well, e.g. Newpipe [1] now supports Peertube (plus a few other media platforms).

                                                                                                                              [1] https://newpipe.schabi.org/

                                                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                                                          Quite a bit of the rest involves spending more recreational time on system administration than I’m keen on

                                                                                                                          Mail takes about 4-8 hour per year in administration time. AOSP-derived Android with OTA updates (e.g. Lineage) only takes a little time on first install, I have this running on several devices. Nexcloud takes a few minutes for each update, use the stable update channel and you won’t see many of those. Searx mostly just works but sometimes one of the ‘engines’ (which form the interface between the Searx instance and the different search engines used to retrieve results) stops returning results in which case an update generally appears within a few days. All in all I probably spend about a week per year in keeping things running and adding new bits here and there, some years more, some less. Many things which used to require intervention are now automated, e.g. certificate requests and renewals are now handled by a central Letsencrypt client which distributes the resulting certificates to the different servers (i.e. containers running in Proxmox on a DL380G7).

                                                                                                                          I retain, at all times, the freedom to go and set this stuff up

                                                                                                                          You do… but you’ll be at a disadvantage having invested so much time and money in closed systems. You’ll have to extract your data from those closed services in some way, you’ll have to make sure you unsubscribe from Apple’s iMessage before leaving the Apple ship or they’ll hold your phone number hostage wrt. SMS/MMS, you’ll have to communicate a new email address to all your contacts, you’ll have to find alternatives to any proprietary Apple things which you’ve invested yourself in, etc.

                                                                                                                          So, to each his own. I value my freedom enough to justify spending a few days per year in keeping things running for me and my extended family. I also like the fact that this approach makes it possible to greatly extend the usable life time of many types of hardware, from the 15 year old Thinkpad T42p I’m using to type this message to the 9 year old Motorola Defy I use when I’m doing ‘rough’ work on the farm or in the forest, another similar device is in use as a wireless trailer camera, another one runs MPD in a custom made 25kg solar-powered boom box I use when building but also to play music at my daughter’s school class parties, etc. To paraphrase Pratchett: “Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willnae be fooled again!” - no matter whether that ‘laird’ or ‘master’ be called Google or Apple or what have you.

                                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                                            on the farm or in the forest

                                                                                                                            That’s enough to explain it for me. I’d insist on far more self-sufficiency if I were living outside the city (as it is, I’m ‘all in’ on the tightly-woven mesh of interdependence that is high-density living).

                                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                                              Mind you, this farm at the forest edge has a gigabit fibre connection, things are not always like they seem in the Swedish countryside.

                                                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                                                Oh sure. It’s a cultural difference as much as a practical one, I suspect.

                                                                                                                          2. 1

                                                                                                                            I retain, at all times, the freedom to go and set this stuff up.

                                                                                                                            You currently have this freedom. You may not, in the future. Look at what’s coming down the pipeline with services like Stadia.

                                                                                                                            1. 3

                                                                                                                              Possibly not a great example. Google can’t seem to make anyone want the damn thing no matter how much money they throw at it.

                                                                                                                              Game developers aren’t touching it with a long stick, consumers aren’t buying it. Even average punters understand there’s a limit.

                                                                                                                          3. 2

                                                                                                                            As to whether OsmAnd can be used to replace Google Maps depends on where you live since Open Street Maps has a varying level of coverage and accuracy for different regions

                                                                                                                            Note that this cuts both ways. In Cambridge, OSM has much better coverage than Google Maps, because the university ditched its own mapping system in favour of a custom renderer for OSM and now invests a bit in keeping the maps up to date in and around university and college buildings. I’ve been to quite a few places where OSM has had much better data than Google Maps. It took Google two years after my house was built to notice that the road it was on existed: it was on OSM during construction.

                                                                                                                            I’m also a fan of OsmAnd. If you’re on Android, the version from F-Droid doesn’t require you to pay for maps. On iOS you can build it yourself, but it’s quite a painful experience. I’ve donated more to them than the cost of the app and so I don’t feel guilty about not paying them for the app and giving Google a 30% cut…

                                                                                                                            1. 1


                                                                                                                              I find your discipline impressive. Congratulations.

                                                                                                                              On my sides, I have to say that I had a comeback to Google Tools due to some work requirements (mobile, colleagues in the Google ecosystem) and convenience. Hard to escape that sometimes.

                                                                                                                              When it comes to notes, I am still on org-mode, but have a secondary system with Joplin (E2E is ok I think) based on Dropbox.

                                                                                                                              1.) Cloud, Software

                                                                                                                              I think Google’s package is very convenient here, and I think this is the most easy grab.

                                                                                                                              2.) Gmail

                                                                                                                              The integration of Gmail between web and mobile clients,and the usability, is hard to beat. So far, I was not lucky enough to find a good email client. K9-Mail is good, but the UI does come close to Gmail.

                                                                                                                              Also, running an Email server seems to me a daunting task. While there is many a free software around, so far I have been a bit scared by doing this work. Also, how hard is it to get a proper rating from other email servers?

                                                                                                                              3.) Google Maps

                                                                                                                              Tough one. Although it another great ad vector from Google et al.

                                                                                                                              4.) Android

                                                                                                                              What would you recommend to be the best way of action when it comes to installing a ‘more libre’ Android version on my Android phone? I am still running my good old Samsung Note 3, and I was considering doing this - however, I am not sure whether I can trust those custom ROMs either.


                                                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                                                If Google works for you, fine, go for it. I have always had a thing about keeping ‘my’ things to myself without having to rely on third parties (other than those which can not be avoided, e.g. that server needs to be connected to the internet which requires an IAP which is a third party…) so I have my own reasons for going all out.

                                                                                                                                Getting an Android derivative on your device is generally not that hard. If you’re just in it for getting a Google-free experience I’d use a well-established distribution like Lineage [1] which is available for your device, install it and live happily ever after. I’ve got a few Samsung devices around here (Tab 3, SIII Neo and a J3) running different versions of Lineage, they ‘just work’. You can either install the Google apps (‘gapps’) on it to get access to the play store, Google Services Framework and other Google-specific bits, choose to install ‘fake gapps’ to get access to things like GCM (used for push notifications etc) and run a number of GSF-dependent apps without having to install GSF or just forego on anything and all Google. Given that you’re using Google ‘cloud’ I’d say you’re best off using Lineage + gapps, the result will be a ‘clean’ Android experience with the normal Google apps, including OTA updates.

                                                                                                                                [1] https://download.lineageos.org/

                                                                                                                              2. 1

                                                                                                                                Distributed sites like Peertube are not an alternative to YouTube IMO. They don’t have the 99% of the same channels/content on there, so someone can’t replace YouTube with those services. Also, when I’ve tried to use them, the performance has been atrocious.

                                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                                It amazes me npm was VC funded in the first place…

                                                                                                                                1. 4

                                                                                                                                  It doesn’t satisfy your requirements but Cocoa is incredible.

                                                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                                                    There’s gnustep…

                                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                                      Yeah that’s true. I tried it briefly on Linux and it seems to work well except for 2 issues:

                                                                                                                                      • I couldn’t figure out how to get it into the GNOME taskbar (probably an easy fix)
                                                                                                                                      • No APIs past Mac OS X 10.4 (not a dealbreaker)

                                                                                                                                      I don’t understand why GNUstep isn’t more popular. Do people dislike Objective-C that much? Or maybe the build environment is too intimidating?

                                                                                                                                  1. 5

                                                                                                                                    From this point forward, we will potentially have a near-perfect recreation of every machine we ever build. Every work of art that we created on those machines.

                                                                                                                                    I wouldn’t say “from this point forward”. Once intellectual property dies off, then maybe. Apple has done a pretty good job of suing emulator devs.

                                                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                                                      This is a great point, I’ve edited that paragraph to address this.

                                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                                      For pure C, I would say https://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/, for C++ I would say wxwidgets, just because both use native controls and have been around for ages.

                                                                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                                                                        How did you find IUP? Looks promising.

                                                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                                                          I didn’t use it in depth, and it was a bit hard to compile, but I watched some youtube talks about it, and it seemed to have some promise, in that it has been used for real things, unlike libui it seems.

                                                                                                                                          I mostly found out about it while researching for a cross platform C ui library.

                                                                                                                                      1. -10

                                                                                                                                        Money quote:

                                                                                                                                        Why are you leaving? Little bored. Not learning as much as I used to. I’ve been doing the same thing too long and need a change. […] I want to build something new again. I don’t want to get stuck in a comfortable rut.

                                                                                                                                        I hope the author, who has so far worked on Go at Google, reignites his learning through something relatively more sophisticated like Rust or Haskell.

                                                                                                                                        1. 61

                                                                                                                                          This is an incredibly patronizing thing to say.

                                                                                                                                          1. 27

                                                                                                                                            Agreed, I usually downvote and ignore such comments, but I can’t help but point this out in light of the recent “Lobsters Is Better than Hacker News thread” [1] (which I also found to be “low effort”)

                                                                                                                                            The comments on this same article on HN are significantly more enjoyable and positive to read than this thread:


                                                                                                                                            It reminds me of the “low effort” framing here regarding open source participation.


                                                                                                                                            Leaving aside the fact that the comment is patronizing (and IMO should just be deleted), it just has so little effort behind it that it contributes nothing.

                                                                                                                                            I try to ignore the many low effort / tribal comments on lobste.rs, but sometimes the noise overwhelms the signal. I think the relatively aggressive HN moderators have done a good job. I understand why people dislike the site, but that’s because it’s big and the bad stuff jumps out at you.


                                                                                                                                            Anyway I write this in hopes that people will put some more effort into their comments. I didn’t submit my last 7 blog posts here and it wasn’t a loss. One post was submitted to HN yesterday and that was plenty of feedback – at least 80% of it not “low effort”.

                                                                                                                                            [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22146746


                                                                                                                                            1. -1

                                                                                                                                              I didn’t submit my last 7 blog posts here

                                                                                                                                              With all due respect, personally I havent missed it. I admire what youre trying to do with the Oil project, but its not of personal interest to me and I havent found a way to filter it out. To be candid it feels as if you use Lobster as a advertising platform sometimes. I think it would be better if you posted more non-Oil topics. Looks like 12 of last 15 were Oil Shell:


                                                                                                                                              Good luck to you.

                                                                                                                                              1. 37

                                                                                                                                                I hate advertising as much as the next guy, but this is very unfair to Andy. For one, the pieces aren’t just about Oil shell. Most of them are about topics inspired by Oil shell, things like motivations, facets of the system, different techniques used to implement it. He’s also written tons of comments on other people’s submissions. He’s a good-faith member of the community.

                                                                                                                                                1. 13

                                                                                                                                                  I agree he definitely interacts more than simple link dumping and while Oil isn’t interesting to me, so are a lot of other technologies that I can’t filter out. I think he should be welcome to share his links so long as they contain new information and not a repetition of existing information. For example I probably would be interested in how he stays so productive and how he manages tasks, and how he decides what to work on next. I hate to admit it but I’m probably more likely to click it if a product name isn’t in the title ;).

                                                                                                                                                2. 18

                                                                                                                                                  Disagree strongly. @andyc’s blog posts are exactly the kind of content that should be submitted to lobsters. Please don’t stop Andy!

                                                                                                                                                  1. 13

                                                                                                                                                    Strongly disagree. If @andyc content is not for lobsters, what is? Each of the posts is technically sound, and I learned many things from them, even tho I’m not interested in Oil per se.

                                                                                                                                              2. 19

                                                                                                                                                Interestingly, a sentence immediately below, which however didn’t make its way into above “money” quote, is:

                                                                                                                                                It’d be nice to primarily work in Go rather than work on Go.

                                                                                                                                                1. 19

                                                                                                                                                  How good of a programmer does one have to be before they can reject Haskell or Rust have it reflect something other than their own ignorance?

                                                                                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                                                                                    Sorry, I don’t understand your question/statement. Could you please rephrase it, English is not my mother tongue. I’m not sure if you ask about the skill level one has to have to be able to reject Haskell or Rust on a non-ignorance base without prejudice of other developers, or something completely different?

                                                                                                                                                    1. 5

                                                                                                                                                      Some fervent proponents of programming languages will imply that programmers that like or use other languages simply do not understand the unique benefits they convey. Paul Graham wrote a whole article that may be the root of some of this thinking.

                                                                                                                                                      Rust and Haskell stereotypically attract these followers more than many languages. But other languages are not immune to this criticism; I’m a Lisp weenie and as we all know, Lisp is still #1 for key algorithmic techniques such as recursion and condescension.

                                                                                                                                                      I read cgag’s comment (and upvoted it) as a tongue in cheek joke: a fervent follower of language X will always consider a criticism of X or a desire to not use X as a position rooted in ignorance of X’s capabilities.

                                                                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                                                                        Some fervent proponents of programming languages will imply that programmers that like or use other languages simply do not understand the unique benefits they convey. Paul Graham wrote a whole article that may be the root of some of this thinking.

                                                                                                                                                        This is true a lot of the time. It’s certainly possible for two people who have both used language X to disagree on whether the style of programming that language X facilitates or encourages is good; but a lot of the time a person who likes language X is making the case that language X is good to programmers who haven’t used it and don’t care to (which is fair enough - it takes a decent amount of time and effort to learn a novel programming language well enough to have an informed opinion about it, and it’s reasonable to decide that you don’t care about forming an informed opinion about a language and doing something else with your time instead).

                                                                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                                                                          Oh, I think you and pg make a good point: sometimes there really are advantages that you can’t see when you look up from blub to language X, and the only real way to get it is to learn X. But I think it’s important to think about looking down the ladder too.

                                                                                                                                                          When I’m in X slinging macros to build a DSL that makes my life easier, I’m making a decision that forces the next programmer to look at my code to deeply understand my DSL and all the decisions therein. What multiplies my productivity might quarter theirs.

                                                                                                                                                          Sometimes you look down and the forced simplicity of blub looks OK :)

                                                                                                                                                  2. 8

                                                                                                                                                    I spent a little bit of time on both Rust and Go and I learned a lot more with Go. Rust is pretty standard and sane, calling into libc, using LLVM. Go goes wild and does its own thing everywhere, it even does its own linking. It’s a lot of fun.

                                                                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                                                                      I believe I understand what you meant, Go has a goal of simplicity, Rust and Haskell are more feature rich. Working on the Go compiler as a result can feel like polishing the same thing over and over, spending tremendous effort to make small improvements. The way you phrased it though appears as though you think Rust and Haskell are “smarter” or “superior” in some way. Implying some language is “smarter” or “more sophisticated” is a good way to make everyone hate that language.

                                                                                                                                                      1. 6

                                                                                                                                                        Implying some language is “smarter” or “more sophisticated” is a good way to make everyone hate that language.

                                                                                                                                                        I would only ask that while some fans of other languages can become overly zealous that we try to not anthropomorphize the language itself by applying a label of hate to it. I think we can all agree that the GP comment is of poor quality.

                                                                                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                                                                                          I can see that. I doubt anyone truly “hates” a language any more than they hate broccoli or brie. I love broccoli and I love brie, but I have heard some people hold strong negative opinions before.

                                                                                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                                                                                          I think he just means Go isn’t that great of a language. I don’t really blame him for having that opinion. Go reminds me a lot of Java, it got adopted because a giant tech company “sponsored” it

                                                                                                                                                          I mean just replace “Go isn’t that good” with “C++ isn’t that good” or “Java isn’t that good” and it suddenly becomes way less controversial.

                                                                                                                                                          1. 4

                                                                                                                                                            i first played with go before it was 1.0, and immediately liked it because it got so many things right, even back then. easy compilation, easy definition of packages without additional magic files, binaries that can just be copied. it’s just optimized for sanity if you want.

                                                                                                                                                            so, imho: it got adopted because smart, experienced people got as much time as they wanted to carefully build something.

                                                                                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                                                                                              Yea from what I’ve heard/experienced, the Go tooling is incredible (just like the Java tooling was incredible). I think what people have a problem with is Go the language.

                                                                                                                                                              Full disclosure though, I’ve never used the language in any serious capacity (other than adding a 5-line patch to the backend code at work here and there) so I don’t have much to say. I have an irrational distaste for the language that I can’t put my finger on. I’m not sure if it’s the weird syntax or what. Tooling seems great though. I’ve been meaning to install 9front on one of my computers.

                                                                                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                most, if not all of the weird choices were made deliberately, the faq explains some of them. imho these things make the language great. for example, the “backward” declarations really feel natural for me, compared to c style declarations.

                                                                                                                                                                the rest of the language is really boring, but the single features really work well together. that’s what makes it great. maybe it’s like watching a anthony bourdain episode where someone cooks a great meal in a single wok over a wood fire outside. it’s about how the tools are used, not how complicated the tools are :)

                                                                                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                  Hm maybe I should check it out then. I really like Lua and C for the same reasons you like Go

                                                                                                                                                          2. -10

                                                                                                                                                            It’s better to be hated than to be incorrect.

                                                                                                                                                            1. 16

                                                                                                                                                              That’s a ludicrous false dichotomy. Being incorrect isn’t good, sure, but being hated is also bad. But good news, you can be correct and not hated! The secret is to communicate humanely and not conflate abrasiveness with intelligence.

                                                                                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                                                                                You can’t always avoid being both correct and unhated. If enough people sacralize or tie their identities to a particular falsehood, someone who says things that are consistent with the truth will be hated.

                                                                                                                                                                1. 8

                                                                                                                                                                  Sure you can. You do it by being quiet.

                                                                                                                                                                  Of course, that’s often undesirable for other reasons.

                                                                                                                                                                  In the case of the comment that sparked this chain, it was more-or-less the optimal choice, since Brad does not (to my knowledge) read the comments here.

                                                                                                                                                              2. 8

                                                                                                                                                                Hmm sometimes yes, sometimes no.

                                                                                                                                                                If you are hated over an inconsequential disagreement where you were correct then you probably didn’t take the right dialogue tree. There are many ways you can share ideas without being hated and correct.It’s also important to note that most people in this kind of situation merely think they are correct, are incorrect and are hated. For example someone with hostile communication strategies would say “No if you are correct you will be hated” , fight tooth and nail, and be nonetheless incorrect and hated. They will think they are more correct because they are hated, but they are probably wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                1. -1

                                                                                                                                                                  I think people here are quick to jump to giving an uncharitable reading of my comment. Rust and Haskell are unquestionably sophisticated (and arguably technically superior) in regards to the type system when compared to Go. My goal was to get people curious, and not harbor hatred.

                                                                                                                                                                  Where I may have erred is in suggesting that author take that route. I just think there is not much you can learn, from a PL standpoint, by staying in Go and similar languages. But then, for all we know, the author may care about other things than PL.

                                                                                                                                                                  Speaking personally, I have passionately used Go (among other languages) in the past. Curiosity and need naturally lead me to discover other languages and, today, I’m extremely delighted to use Haskell for real world software.

                                                                                                                                                                  I also recommend reading http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html (especially when emotions run high).

                                                                                                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                                                                                                    I’m a functional programmer so you’re preaching to the choir and I think it is valuable when interfacing with others to be particularly careful when saying that you have a better approach. Even if you are right, people often hold the idea that they are what they do. If you appear to be saying what you do is better than what they do, then they are likely to read it as “I think I am better than you”. Now you probably don’t think you’re better or smarter than they are, after all its just a different tool. Nevertheless this can be how it is received if you are not careful. Since when we write we are often writing to an audience, how the audience receives our message can really matter in advocacy and outreach. I think your original post was unfortunately ambiguous about what you thought of others. So even though that might not have been what you felt or thought, it still is how it will be received, even to a generous listener. The second post is much clearer that you don’t look down on others. You probably didn’t think to explicitly spell that out because well it’s probably not how you felt. However many readers really benefit from clarifying that point because for many writers that IS what they intend. They are trying to make someone perceive themselves to be inferior, small, or useless. For the record I don’t use go, and I don’t particularly enjoy writing it, I was merely laying out ground rules for interaction because I would not appreciate it if someone talked to me in that way.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                      I see what you are saying. The solution that you propose to be “particularly careful” when communicating is accepted as general wisdom, yet it does not consistently work, as people will find ways to get offended regardless.

                                                                                                                                                                      First, taking offense is often a subjective response. What’s offensive to one may be neutral or naive to another. Emotions are influenced by one’s cultural upbringing.

                                                                                                                                                                      Second, intention matters more. Both parties should strive to understand the context and intention of another. And aim to take words at face value, rather than second-guessing meaning.

                                                                                                                                                                      A better course of action for people here really is to be inquisitive. And assume good faith, as Wikipedians say. So, person B is feeling offended. Instead of reacting to the emotion, why not find out the facts of the matter? Personal B could respond saying “I felt X upon reading your comment. Did you really intend Y? If not, could you clarify what you mean by it if not Y?”.

                                                                                                                                                                      To me, personally, what matters first-most is my own affective state: was I feeling malice (however subtle) or not? I’ve written a whole article on this topic.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                        To put that in practice

                                                                                                                                                                        Person A: I hope the author, who has so far worked on Go at Google, reignites his learning through something relatively more sophisticated like Rust or Haskell.

                                                                                                                                                                        Person B: Your post appears as if you are suggesting that the project he spent ~10 years as a core developer on is unsophisticated (basic, primitive, etc). This seems inconsiderate and rude. A farewell post is not the place to bring up other languages you prefer to Go. If not, could you clarify what you meant?

                                                                                                                                                                        Person A: (What is the correct response here?)

                                                                                                                                                                        1. -1

                                                                                                                                                                          This would be my response:

                                                                                                                                                                          Your post appears as if you are suggesting that the project he spent ~10 years as a core developer on is unsophisticated (basic, primitive, etc).

                                                                                                                                                                          Nope; my post was referring to Go the programming language, which is indeed unsophisticated – in the context of type system – when compared to languages like Rust or Haskell.

                                                                                                                                                                          Perhaps ‘advanced’, instead of ‘sophisticated’, would have been a more agreeable adjective?

                                                                                                                                                                          This seems inconsiderate and rude.

                                                                                                                                                                          No inconsiderateness or rudeness was intended. And making a factual observation about a set of technologies does not mean malice is intended on humans.

                                                                                                                                                                          A farewell post is not the place to bring up other languages you prefer to Go.

                                                                                                                                                                          I have never seen anyone suggest observing a social protocol of not bringing up other programming languages on a blog post with farewell theme. It seems like such an arbitrary restriction. I’m curious where you gleaned this norm from.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. 4

                                                                                                                                                                            Even you do not act maliciously and are not affected by a conflict does not mean the other party feels the same way. Like your article states “once enough people are piling on to complain or tell you what’s wrong with what you did, you’re going to feel attacked “. Sure you can’t control how other people feel but I think we should try to minimize this if it’s unnecessary. Acknowledging and understanding their emotions go a long way towards this.

                                                                                                                                                                            When coworkers leave for another job, I congratulate them and thank them for their contribution. If I didn’t like the work they did, I say nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                            [I too was becoming defensive, edited for politeness :D]

                                                                                                                                                                            1. -2

                                                                                                                                                                              Even you do not act maliciously and are not affected by a conflict does not mean the other party feels the same way. […] Sure you can’t control how other people feel


                                                                                                                                                                              but I think we should try to minimize this if it’s unnecessary.

                                                                                                                                                                              Humans having been trying this for centuries, and conflicts have not stopped. No thank you, I’ll stick to my current approach of feeling good which has been working so well for me. I’d have to be pretty silly to regress from that because of some random incidents online! (Can you now understand why Twitter can be such a raging place?)

                                                                                                                                                                              1. 9

                                                                                                                                                                                Not caring about how other people feel or are affected by your actions is the very definition of being inconsiderate. Not being malicious is not the same thing as being kind.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thank you, this much more clearly captures my thoughts.

                                                                                                                                                                            2. 9

                                                                                                                                                                              It might benefit you to take some time away from this thread, cool off, have fun with friends, then reread it and see what you think later. I know if I were in your shoes I would probably be feeling pretty defensive, as it was not your intention to downplay someone’s effort or tooling. However defensiveness here may affect your ability to see the situation clearly which would allow you to be more effective next time at sharing your informed opinions. You may decide afterwards we’re all being too sensitive, and that’s fine. It is after all your call. However I have found some people slide down the “I’m not rude, everyone is just too sensitive” trap. If everyone is too sensitive perhaps it would be more effective catering to it at least some of the time.

                                                                                                                                                                              As for your last point, I think it is possible to share new ideas when someone is ending a career path, however I think it would require quite a bit of finesse. You do not want to appear as though you are disregarding their effort and commitment. Often people who have several years into a project can feel very sad when they leave it, even if it was the right thing to do. If you propose a new path too bluntly it can appear that you are pouring salt on the wound. They are already sad about losing their job and community and now you’re telling them they are wrong. Even if what you are telling them is right, it can still hurt. If you are going to advise someone in an emotional space (big life changes, employment, relationships, home), it’s good to give them the possibility that they may be right even though they are not. After all it’s pretty logical to say that in our partial information world that few things are perfectly knowable. Then when their emotions cool off they may realize that maybe you had their best interest in mind all along and might even agree with you.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. -1

                                                                                                                                                                                You suggest that I wasn’t feeling good, and then go on to say that I “cool off”, and even indicate that I might be feeling “defensive” - but nowhere above did I say that I was feeling anything but good. So I do wonder where you get this information about my mental state from, so as to concoct such an unsolicited advice.

                                                                                                                                                                                Can you see how being “particularly careful” is working for you here? Speaking personally, feeling good before reaching for the keyboard, ensures that I never uncharitably interpret other’s words, much less project my feelings onto them.

                                                                                                                                                                                If I may suggest, instead of second-guessing other person’s feelings, take their words at face value and directly engage with their points (and I do note that you are yet to address any of my points on this topic). It makes communication so much simpler.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                                  You’re right, being careful when someone is a troll is a misstep, I’ll make sure to report you to the mods. I’m done here.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                                                                                                                    srid isn’t being a troll. He is disagreeing in good faith with a majority of the thread.

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                      Well that’s what I thought too, until he said “Can you see how being “particularly careful” is working for you here?”, and then I realized he was just being manipulative.

                                                                                                                                                                                    2. -2

                                                                                                                                                                                      You’re right, being careful when someone is a troll is a misstep,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Any intelligent person who is not actively under the affective throes of offense (or whatever) that reads my comments in this thread can easily see how I was being anything but a troll[1]. Be that as it may, when I asked whether you can see how being “particularly careful” is working for you here, what I was referring to was this exchange (emphasis mine):

                                                                                                                                                                                      • [voronoipotato]: I think it is valuable when interfacing with others to be particularly careful when saying that you have a better approach.
                                                                                                                                                                                      • [srid]: The solution that you propose to be “particularly careful” when communicating is accepted as general wisdom, yet it does not consistently work, as people will find ways to get offended regardless.
                                                                                                                                                                                      • [voronoipotato]: It might benefit you to […] cool off […] if I were in your shoes I would probably be feeling pretty defensive
                                                                                                                                                                                      • [srid]: Can you see how being “particularly careful” is working for you here?

                                                                                                                                                                                      The fact that you went on to project feelings of defensiveness on to me, despite my making it clear I was feeling neither inconsiderate nor rude (much less needing to defend anything) served as a perfect example of just what the effectiveness of your proposed solution of being “perfectly careful” is … to wit: not effective at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Indeed, I’ve made this exact point under the Where civility falls short section of the aforementioned article.

                                                                                                                                                                                      (My delineating the situation in this manner is only done to elucidate the facts of the matter; however I also understand that it might be uncomfortable for you, as it goes against your beliefs regarding civility).

                                                                                                                                                                                      [1]: Just so there is no misunderstanding here’s what that refers to:

                                                                                                                                                                                      troll: a person who makes a deliberately offensive or provocative online post. (Oxford)

                                                                                                                                                                                2. 3

                                                                                                                                                                                  There’s more to a language than its type system. Go’s runtime isn’t unsophisticated. I think it’s funny that you focus in on the type system as the primary measure of the language’s complexity, it lays bare that you have a narrow perspective on programming languages.

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                                                                                                                                                                                    Wow you got me!

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                                                                                                                                                                        Oderint dum computant.

                                                                                                                                                                        [1] original here, correction to my Latin gratefully accepted.

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                                                                                                                                                                    iPhone SE. My top reason is the form factor. No idea what I’m going to do when support is dropped. Every other modern phone feels massive in comparison.

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                                                                                                                                                                      Have you tried Samsung s10e? I feel that modern phones tend to be too big too and this one has been a keeper for me. It’s super comfy!

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                                                                                                                                                                        With its 5.8” screen, it is significantly bigger than the iPhone SE. It is even bigger than most non-Max iPhone.

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                                                                                                                                                                          The screen to body ratio is much much higher, so in reality it’s not much bigger whole giving you almost double the screen size:

                                                                                                                                                                          S10e: 142 x 70 x 8 mm
                                                                                                                                                                          IPhone se: 124 x 59 x 8 mm

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                                                                                                                                                                        Same here, and also for flat camera. I need a communication device, not a real big camera.

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                                                                                                                                                                          The quality control had become crap by the time I realized I wanted the iPhone SE. I went through four of them in less than a month before giving up and going to the iPhone 7. I emphatically do not believe that this was a generic iPhone SE issue; I have heard similar from people who bought them too late in their life cycle. I agree with you: that thing was my ideal form factor, and I’m genuinely disappointed I missed out and don’t have one.

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                                                                                                                                                                            What exactly were the issues you had? Curious, I’m holding on to mine (about to replace the battery for the third time).

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                                                                                                                                                                              In no particular order:

                                                                                                                                                                              1. Screen with dead pixels
                                                                                                                                                                              2. CarPlay simply didn’t work. The details varied, but this one was actually pretty consistent across all four phones.
                                                                                                                                                                              3. Screen with dead touch areas or vague touch area so that precision touching was a no-go. This was especially deadly prior to iOS 13, when they let you hold and drag on the spacebar to select individual letters.
                                                                                                                                                                              4. Battery operated as if it were a really forking old battery. It’d go from 100% to 30% over 15 minutes, then recharge back to 100% in as much time.
                                                                                                                                                                              5. Bluetooth would occasionally just decide it had had enough with life and was going to exeunt stage left

                                                                                                                                                                              To be clear, these were, at least nominally, brand-new phones bought directly from the Apple Store. That’s specifically why I gave up and bought an iPhone 7. I’d otherwise have simply gone to them and tried again for an SE.

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                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for clarifying! Didn’t think those issues could happen with new store-purchased phones.

                                                                                                                                                                                (FWIW, my recent carplay issues turned out to be due to a pile of lint stuck in the lightning connector.).

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                                                                                                                                                                              Try craigslist? I’ve never had a problem there.

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                                                                                                                                                                              What I wouldn’t give for an iPhone 11 jammed into the case of an iPhone 5.

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                                                                                                                                                                                I hope my SE never dies. I can reach all four corners of the screen with my thumb. Plus, I love having a headphone jack.

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                                                                                                                                                                                  That’s sort of why I got an XZ1c (specs). I bought it before my previous phone died, because I worried that they might stop making it. Sigh. There just aren’t very many of us asking for such phones.

                                                                                                                                                                                  FWIW, after disabling all the google things I don’t particularly want to use and ticking the right checkboxes, the phone appears not to tell Google anything significant. At least Google’s account history page is just an empty list.

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                                                                                                                                                                                  Looks handy. I saw this supports prerelease builds of Lua 5.4; did you have any trouble supporting that, or was it pretty straightforward?

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                                                                                                                                                                                        Holy smokes; that’s awful. Is it disabled by default at least?

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                                                                                                                                                                                          As far as I know, yes.

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                                                                                                                                                                                            Here’s hoping it either gets removed before the full release, or never gets enabled ever by anyone compiling it.

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                                                                                                                                                                                      You said frontend, so I’ll take this as an opportunity to talk about iOS :D

                                                                                                                                                                                      In general, the move away from dynamic dispatch. I mean, I understand it’s for performance, but it makes things less fun :( I’m also incredibly skeptical of SwiftUI, and am not looking forward to doing jobs/contracts using that framework.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a gut feeling Apple’s making these changes purely for “developer PR” reasons, and not because they’re actually good changes. e.g. Objective-C brackets are too ugly -> make Swift, UIKit is too hard -> copy React.js. FWIW I have nothing against Swift but the reasoning behind making it doesn’t make much sense to me, from a technical perspective.

                                                                                                                                                                                      If changes like these continue I will probably switch to backend or embedded or something. At least there, I won’t be subjected to the whims of post Steve Jobs Apple.

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                                                                                                                                                                                        I am a mobile developer as well, so of course!

                                                                                                                                                                                        I’ve never been able to spend much time on native iOS development however the SwiftUI idea seems good from the perspective of “declarative vs imperative programming”. I can imagine that is the main source of skepticism. Recently the whole FE worlds started to shift towards declarative programming hence the boom.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Why would you prefer imperative programming by the way I would love to have an opinion on that as well.

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                                                                                                                                                                                          I like the flexibility. The UIKit APIs are pretty well designed so I never really had much issue banging out a bunch of boilerplate, so the “less code” thing is kind of moot to me, especially since you can just abstract that yourself.