Threads for N64N64

  1. 11

    I’ve been learning Rust the past couple weeks strictly for hobbyist reasons. I’m coming from the dynamic typing world of Python and JavaScript. While I’m familiar with the strongly typed paradigms of C and Java, I figured spending my time in Rust would be more beneficial.

    There are a lot of individual things I like in Rust, but programming in it in general feels like I’m trying to learn a new sport and I can’t quite seems to get my sense of balance. E.G., “I’ve been out on the water a hundred times now, so why can’t I comfortably stand on the surfboard now?” type of feeling. If that makes sense.

    I’ll keep plowing forward with it though. I’ve got The Rust Programming Language book from No Starch Press, and I have been spending a lot of my time in the Rust Book online. I’ll find my balance, I just wish I could find it sooner than later.

    1. 13

      While I’m familiar with the strongly typed paradigms of C and Java

      C is barely type at all, and Java is a weird hybrid of a poor type system and just being dynamically typed anyway. I wouldn’t call either “strongly typed”.

      1. 4

        C is barely type at all, and Java is a weird hybrid of a poor type system and just being dynamically typed anyway. I wouldn’t call either “strongly typed”.

        Maybe I should have chosen “static” instead, as I also referred to “dynamic” typing rather than “weak” typing. Or maybe type safety would have been even a better comparison? Shrug.

        1. 22

          I wouldn’t worry too much, internet fights about what counts as “static” or “strong” or “typed” are generally not worth your time.

          1. 9

            The key here is that there is no single definition of “strong” or “static” types. It is a spectrum. For example, Rust has algebraic data types, C++ does not. They are both static and strong in the broad sense, but algebraic data types mean that you can express more things at the type level.

            It’s not like saying “I’m familiar with C, so I know everything that can be done with static types,” is accurate, I think is the point of this response.

            1. 2

              It’s not like saying “I’m familiar with C, so I know everything that can be done with static types,” is accurate, I think is the point of this response.

              Indeed.

        2. 6

          I get what you’re saying and if I may suggest two things which have helped me pick up rust: writing a small but complete CLI application and watching live or recorded streams (for instance Ryan Levick or Jon Gjengset are formidable tutors)

          1. 4

            Maybe you should listen to your gut. Rust is a relatively new language, it is not clear it will stand the test of time.

            1. 8

              That’s fair. However, even though I’m struggling to find my balance, I find learning it exciting. I think I’d rather learn as much of the ins and outs as I can and walk away with an informed opinion than bail early. At least I’m having fun, even if I keep falling off the surfboard.

              1. 6

                I hope you stick with it. It is a relatively hard-to-master language, IMHO. Java, or an GC language doesn’t force you to think about ownership the way Rust puts that front and center. The ownership model has a dramatic effect on the kind of datastructures you can and should design. And it effects the way in which you use and share data across the entire application.

                I believe the tradeoff is worth it, because you can catch certain classes of memory safety bugs at compile time, which can lurk undetected for years in other codebases. These are the kind of bugs that cause big problems later.

                1. 2

                  I hope you stick with it.

                  I plan on it.

                  It is a relatively hard-to-master language, IMHO. … The ownership model has a dramatic effect on the kind of datastructures you can and should design. And it effects the way in which you use and share data across the entire application.

                  This might be the balance I’m struggling to find. A lot of my compiler errors are related to owneship and I keep having to come back to the docs to remind myself how it works.

            2. 2

              I made a similar jump. It informed how I learned TypeScript and then made a whole lot more sense once I learned Haskell. Some tidbits that would’ve helped me follow.

              Static typing, especially in something like TypeScript, can be thought of as an elaborate linter. At times it can be restrictive, but surprisingly often it’s leading you towards better code.

              Strong static typing as in Rust’s case is like static typing but where your types are accurate to what will be there at runtime, so you’re probably going to need to do some validation or casting at your application boundaries. In Rust’s case also there’s no duck typing, you can’t just carry around data the compiler doesn’t know about at compile-time.

              Traits are interfaces for shared abstractions across types. I really struggled with this until I saw typeclasses in Haskell. I think learning something relatively simple there like Functor can be instructive. It’s not entirely unlike extending prototypes in JavaScript, but here the compiler can use that information at compile-time to let you write functions which constrain input to support certain things, like for example an Eq constraint would mean “I’ll accept any input for which I can test equivalence”.

              1. 1

                There is always duck typing if you want it, in any language. The best way in rust IMO is trait objects, but you can even get Java-style dynamic typing if you want (with possible a single use of unsafe in the library providing it).

            1. 1

              Steve Jobs made the web worse by killing Flash and Java applets. Web browsers used to have a rich ecosystem for extensions. MobileSafari all but destroyed that ecosystem. One might say Thoughts on Flash aged poorly, but it was already riddled with hypocrisy when it was first published.

              1. 1

                FWIW, AWS provides a huge variety of services, and even the “lower-level” services like EC2 and S3 provide a lot of configurable knobs to turn. I don’t know a lot of folks who’ve “learned AWS” at a broad level, but I know many who understand the particular corners they needed to do their work.

                The training and certification options from AWS are structured around either what you want to work with (ML, data analytics, databases, etc) or the role you want to play on a team (developer, ops, architect, etc). I think their materials are only ok (not bad, not amazing) but they do at least provide a number of different structured learning paths depending what you want to work on.

                1. 3

                  Yes I think OP is asking the wrong question, he should think about what his end goal is. It would be a fool’s errand to try to learn AWS broadly without a plan.

                1. 13

                  This makes a lot of sense to me; it’s about the impression I would expect to hear given the author’s background. I agree with a lot of the takeaways.

                  I had the luxury of learning elm on my own time and on greenfield projects, and haven’t worked on anything truly enormous (biggest project has been a bit over 8k sloc). I also came from a different background, already knowing some Haskell as well as just being familiar with a pretty broad set of languages.

                  I do find I end up writing a lot more code for the same logic than I would in Haskell, a lot of which is boilerplate. json encoder/decoder thing is annoying; in haskell you can just do:

                  data Foo
                      = Bar
                      | Baz Int
                      | Quux String
                      deriving(ToJSON, FromJSON)
                  

                  …and you’re done. Elm suffers a bit from being both very rigid and aggressively anti-cleverness; to avoid this kind of boilerplate you’d need something a little more than what the language offers you. Right now the best solution is some kind of protobuf-style code generation, which is a bit annoying in that it means more random build system glue. Also the last time I seriously surveyed the ecosystem for this kind of thing I found the results wanting, but it’s been a year or two since I’ve looked, so maybe it’s gotten better.

                  Elm makes what I think is a very conscious trade-off, accepting some of these kinds of paper-cuts for larger projects in exchange for an easier learning curve and fewer footguns for folks coming from javascript. It’s not quite what I want from a language; I think there’s a better sweet spot to be had for folks who are willing to learn a couple more advanced concepts in exchange for expressiveness (macros, higher-kinded/higher-ranked types, maybe some others), while maintaining the saftey and not even really making the language terribly complex, but that’s not elm’s target audience (I may be working on a language that tries to hit that…)

                  I still reach for Elm when I need to write a simple-ish web UI; it’s not perfect, but it’s really really good as long as you’re using it for it’s own little niche.

                  1. 2

                    If, after a considerable amount of experience with the language, you realized the only good use-case is for a simple web UI, to me that raises a red flag. Embedding Elm semantics into my brain isn’t worth that.

                    1. 8

                      If web UIs are not much of what you do, then perhaps, though for me there wasn’t much semantics learning to do coming from Haskell. Though it’s also a good stepping stone towards more generally applicable functional programming; the sad state of the world is that many of those have very poor learning resources. And most of what you’d learn in Elm will translate decently well to OCaml or Haskell or other similar languages.

                      But yes, if you’re looking for a tool to do something other than web UIs, Elm is not it. If that is what you are looking for, it is a very good tool.

                      1. 1

                        Vanilla Javascript suits that use-case just fine though.

                  1. 16

                    This doesn’t really touch on the economic factors for why Electron is a thing; it’s easy to find JS devs off the street for cheap, not so much for Win32 or Cocoa. Or for that matter, finding them at all. (edit: Or hiring both at the same time. Why bother when you can (seemingly) do the same with one?)

                    1. 4

                      Yeah it would have been a much better article if he touched on the hire-ability aspect. OP is clearly a product guy, it seems like he has no clue there are a lot of good cross-platform frameworks out there these days.

                      1. 2

                        [citation required].

                        1. 1

                          It depends on who u r

                      2. 2

                        Not sure where you got your data for JS dev pay. That might have been true a decade ago, but the pay gap has shrunk, especially for experienced devs.

                        You’re about one thing: targeting multiple platforms natively isn’t economical, especially nowadays with mobile platforms.

                      1. 2

                        Hah! Someone was reading the same Twitter thread, I see. I was just about to post this. :)

                        1. 3

                          Sauce?

                        1. 4
                          1. 3

                            And its Lobsters submission: https://lobste.rs/s/xhct5o/things_unlearned

                          1. 0

                            Flying from JFK to SFO and playing Pokemon with my niggas

                            1. 2

                              I’m glad to see people shitting on OP here in these comments. I’ll give my own 2¢.

                              In the Electron developers are lazy section, he lays out the cliché “web is the only option for cross-platform development” argument. It makes me think he’s probably a business/product guy who outsources the work to salaried employees. Clearly the biggest reason why people go with React/Electron is because of hire-ability.

                              BUT. If you’re actually writing the thing yourself and are certain you don’t need to hire anyone, then it’s probably not the best approach. Him saying “the choice is between an Electron app or no macOS app” makes me laugh because he clearly has no clue what’s even out there.

                              1. 2

                                Him saying “the choice is between an Electron app or no macOS app” makes me laugh because he clearly has no clue what’s even out there.

                                So what is out there then? Because I’m not aware of what is. I talked about some of what I’ve looked at in https://lobste.rs/s/knejqd/why_electron_apps_are_fine#c_gzeqnn

                                BUT. If you’re actually writing the thing yourself there are much better ways of writing a cross-platform application.

                                How often do you write an app yourself in a vacuum and continue supporting it in perpetuity? Most apps are written in teams and teams change over time. I don’t necessarily mean big tech shops with hypergrowth, I mean even if you are the app maintainer of a small local store, you’ll eventually want to leave and then the store will have to hire someone else to replace you. Then that person will have to learn the language you chose and the FFI bindings you invoked along with just … writing the business logic for the local store.

                              1. 2

                                Currently work at a BigCo, can attest to this. If this job was in-person I would have gone insane. But since it’s remote, it’s pretty nice.

                                This is the realest thing I’ve ever read: https://pastebin.com/raw/hNL7WG2A

                                1. 4

                                  I used many solutions for offline tasks. Both Python frameworks and directly connecting to the broker. I worked with RabbitMQ, Kafka, Redis and PostgreSQL.

                                  I do not quite understand why Redis is highly recommended as a message broker. If you are already having a Redis instance, depending on the requirements, it might be the right choice. But plain Redis requires some work in order to provide a solid task queue backend.

                                  As a background task processing that is backing some web interface, a custom PostgreSQL backed task queue works amazing. Initially, I was a bit skeptical, because of what PostgreSQL is and how it works. Reading an old benchmark page gave me much needed confidence. If you are already using Posters and your task throughput is small enough (you have to judge this yourself) using PostgreSQL as a broker has so many advantages over any other solution.

                                  If PostgreSQL is not enough for you as a task broker, you can tap yourself on the back, because you did a great job on building a popular product! Now take the afternoon to consider switching to another tool that will suite your needs better.

                                  1. 2

                                    I think the reason people recommend Redis is that for most average small websites it’d be replacing something really hard to setup, like RabbitMQ. Setting up a Redis instance is trivial. Most cloud providers I’ve used provide a hosted Redis solution, if you want to setup a highly-available server for some reason. A lot of people are using Redis as a replacement for memcached these days, so for most setups you already have a Redis instance. It’s also trivial - and incredibly light in resources - to reproduce your setup locally for development.

                                    In other words: yes, Postgres might be good, but Redis carved the niche earlier and it’s super convenient and that’s why people recommend it.

                                    1. 1

                                      If you’re going to setup a hosted Redis on your cloud provider, there’s a good chance they provide an actual message broker or queue service already. On AWS there are several.

                                      1. 2

                                        being locked into a proprietary AWS service doesnt sound like a good time to me

                                        1. 1

                                          They’re not all proprietary - you can get managed Kafka (or something that’s API compatible), for example

                                  1. 10

                                    I mean honestly, modern programming sucks. At the end of the day you’re just editing text. It’s a means to an end. If editing text didn’t give me power over nature I wouldn’t do it. It does a lot of damage to my brain and body. I have to fill my head with a bunch of bullshit (most of the time) and I have to stare at a LCD screen and put my arms in front of me for extended periods like I’m a T-Rex.

                                    It’s basically the same thing as typing into a word document. Why don’t we see people pushing “pair typewriting” like they do with pair programming? Have somebody stare over the other person’s shoulder, telling them what to type paragraph-by-paragraph, pointing out typos and grammar errors along the way. Sounds like fun!

                                    1. 7

                                      A lot of English is produced in a paired fashion, with people bouncing ideas back and forth as they commit them to the document.

                                      1. 2

                                        Yep. I turn off spellcheck when I write prose in order to avoid exactly that pain, saving it until after I’ve finished the drafting process. If one’s pair partner is working as a human linter and type system checker, though, that’s far worse. We have automated solutions for those problems. In a healthy pairing session the person at the keyboard is like a driver behind the wheel and their partner serves as the navigator. The latter shouldn’t be doing any work that a GPS can already do and they certainly shouldn’t be telling the driver how to turn the wheel or work the peddles. They can, however, look out for interesting road stops opportunities, update the GPS when plans or traffic change, research restaurant options on their phone, or simply rest their eyes until it’s their turn.

                                        1. 3

                                          This complaint also reminds me of degenerate forms of tabletop roleplaying or collaborative board games: While nobody wants to have another player telling them exactly which moves to make in Pandemic, the game can turn euphoric when everyone’s actually collaborating. FOSS and Crafts just released an episode discussing exactly this.

                                          1. 2

                                            Haha, I was reading your comment and thinking “neat, this sounds like the kind of thing we like to talk about on our podcast… zeitgeist!” And then you actually linked to that podcast episode! :)

                                      1. 9

                                        Something they miss in the article and I don’t see in the comments here either is just how much a move like this limits the app’s audience size.

                                        I have a feeling most crustaceans would be SHOCKED at how many “end users” would peel off and walk away when confronted with instructions to add a web app to their mobile device’s home page in favor of just downloading a native app from the app store.

                                        1. 5

                                          Why not make a “Web Store” that helps with aggregation and discoverability of web apps that will link to the website. It will give more credibility to the web app and not some unwanted pop up that screams “Download me”.

                                          1. 2

                                            Since we’ve broached the topic of iOS feature requests, why not make a “unlocked bootloader” that helps with aggregation and discoverability of apps (and daemons) since there is no longer the concept of an “app store”. It will give more credibility to 3rd party developers and not some unwanted censor that screams “it’s for your security and privacy!!!one!11”

                                            1. 5

                                              Ah, yes, because getting rid of a centralized, built-in way to discover new apps which (generally) are known to be more or less safe is a great idea for the average, often-times tech-adverse consumer.

                                              I can think of no way in which this could cause a negative impact for app discoverability, make it more difficult for users to install applications, or increase the risk of downloading and running malicious code (which, before you say it: no, the average user is not going to know how to check to see if something is malicious).

                                              This sounds like a fantastic idea.

                                              1. 1

                                                I’d agree, but the stores would need to do a better job of curation. As of now, there’s still a lot of grift and outright scams on the iOS app store - let alone the Android or Windows one. It undermines the message.

                                                1. 1

                                                  Very true. The stores are all quite bad at curation, but I’d wager even a half-assed curation is better than none at all.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    You took my comment the wrong way. That’s not what I meant.

                                        1. 31

                                          It’s the fast path toward putting “full stack developer” on your resumé.

                                          1. 15

                                            This type of answer belongs in HN. Let us keep this community different.

                                            1. 0

                                              This should be the accepted answer.

                                              1. 9

                                                This is not SO and even there it’d be marked off-topic :P

                                                1. 0

                                                  Glad you enjoyed my joke ;)

                                                  1. 21

                                                    This is not about joking, this is about keeping the comments section on lobsters different than the popular communities where it’s much easier to say snarky one-liner than giving a thoughtful answer. The fact that /u/idrougge post is the most popular post in this comment section might show how “mainstream” lobsters is getting and reflect how I generally feel lately about this site.

                                                    1. -8

                                                      Something something upvote comment trees bad, forum good.

                                                      1. 10

                                                        This is unfortunate that instead of addressing anything I said you resort to sarcasm and do exactly what I’m pointing out about this comment tree.

                                                        1. 4

                                                          This is so poignant, I had to interject. Because @N64N64 is actually pointing to the root cause of Lobsters’ decline, just in such an inarticulate way that you missed the point… as did all eight of the downvoters that caused the comment (and any response to it, including this one) to become hidden by default. I always expand these, myself. And I generally read lobste.rs/newest and keep an eye on the mod log, because I’ve been around a bit and am firmly convinced that popularity points are actively harmful to thoughtful discussion. They incentivize the bad behaviors you and I both know too well from Those Other Sites and don’t want on this one. Reordering the comments by popularity just accelerates this bad pattern, as well as obfuscating the natural temporal ordering of a conversation, and perpetuating the weird notion that one only responds to a single comment at a time. So yes, upvote-ordered comment trees are bad, and the older and plainer style of forums are really better, although probably not the best possible form.

                                                          We can shake our fists and demand that newcomers discipline themselves against their conditioning, but I fear that we’re pissing in the wind. Ultimately, Lobsters will devolve into just another snark tank, and those of us who need something better will go find it somewhere else.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            Thanks for filling in the “something something” part. :)

                                            1. 0

                                              this methodology lead to an interesting observation

                                              led*

                                              1. 0

                                                Impossible

                                                1. 1

                                                  I agree. I used to avoid burnout at all costs like its some permanent brain damage, but after burning out i realized its like an injury……. I came out the other side stronger.

                                                  1. 7

                                                    Perhaps not the best analogy. Injuries can be permanently debilitating.

                                                    1. 4

                                                      Indeed. And even when not permanently debilitating, they can just be a setback, plain and simple.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        I mean, it could have been permanent if my circumstances were different…. I was lucky that the burnout-causing environment I was in lasted only a year. And I quickly found another environment that helped me heal

                                                    2. 1

                                                      But you can learn from it, each time a bit more. Like you have muscle aches after working out, you learn when you pushed too hard, didn’t listen to yourself, …

                                                    1. 2

                                                      Based on the title I thought this was gonna be about VFIO. Cool to see dlfcn magic instead.

                                                      1. 26

                                                        After performing over 100 interviews: interviewing is thoroughly broken. I also have no idea how to actually make it better.

                                                        yep

                                                        1. 2

                                                          Maybe Amazon’s interview is broken. This data-structure bullshit doesn’t help at all if the applicant doesn’t know shit about real work, system designs, soft skills, security, team work, etc

                                                          1. 4

                                                            As much as I dislike FAANG interviews, every attempt I’ve seen to fix them is also fraught with problems

                                                            1. 6

                                                              I’d love to work for one of those big FAANG but I don’t know from the top of my head how to do a BFS on a tree. So fuck it, my 20 years of development is garbage for them.

                                                              1. 4

                                                                There are many books and courses to prep candidates for FAANG interviews. For senior engineers might be daunting but to join a FAANG some drills are to be expected.

                                                                Whatever company will have a big pool of candidates will end up in similar situation: assess things that are largely irrelevant to the day-to-day job.

                                                                The real drama is that very smart people who could use their brain-power to improve society at large, deal with low utility projects for years.

                                                                1. 4

                                                                  You’re doing yourself a disservice by having this mindset

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    Why?

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      Because you don’t get to work at FAANG

                                                                  2. 3

                                                                    I seriously believe that if you are a good programmer, went to uni or similar and spend two weekends with “cracking the coding interview”, do 1 or 2 mock interviews to train the communication style, you have a good chance. If you aren’t anxious or have other such problems during the interview.

                                                                    Without preparation most would be lost.

                                                                    You can, of course, still think this is fucked but it’s not unpassable for good programmers without anxiety problems, reasonably good communication skills and time to prepare.

                                                                    If you are interested, I can do a mock interview with you.

                                                                    1. 16

                                                                      I don’t think the problem for most people is the details of playing the game. The game is learnable, and if one has gotten anywhere in this field its because one can learn things. The problem people have is they question why the game, which everyone knows has no bearing on the ability to do the job at hand, needs to be played at all?

                                                                      If we put our cynicism hat on (mine is pretty worn-out by now), we can answer that question by saying that what the game is about is testing people’s willingness to jump through arbitrary hoops. In that sense, it may actually accurately test their ability to function within the organization at hand, and thus may in fact be very good at its job of filtering out candidates who would not work out.

                                                                      1. 5

                                                                        but it’s not unpassable for good programmers without anxiety problems, reasonably good communication skills and time to prepare.

                                                                        It’s not, but good programmers with 20 years of experience can always get a job someplace where they don’t have to jump through these silly hoops.

                                                                        It works surprisingly well for both parties. It’s not like recruitment heads in Big Corp don’t already know this puts off experienced programmers, everyone’s been aware of that for a long time now. They just don’t want that many experienced programmers. If you’re recruiting for senior and lead positions, it’s much more efficient to go through recommendations (or promote from within) in which case the interview is… somewhat more relaxed, so to speak. The interviews are designed for something else.

                                                                        (Edit: I’m with @gthm on what they’re designed for . The main aim is to select young graduates and mid-career developers who will put up with arbitrary requirements and don’t mind spending some of their free time on it every once in a while.)

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          Having been through the Google interview gauntlet a few years ago, there’s quite a bit more than just whiteboarding algorithms.

                                                                          I was completely unprepared for the ‘scale this data query service’ chunk, which I didn’t even know was going to be part of the interview (which is a failure of the Google recruiter frankly) but I now know is pretty standard amongst FAANG company interviews for SRE type roles. Didn’t help that the interviewer was a jerk who refused to answer any of my questions, but that’s hardly unusual!

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            That part is also covered in “Cracking the Coding Interview”

                                                                            Not to invalidate your experience but the vast majority of my interviewing experience was pleasant. Maybe you have had bad luck or me good luck or your standards are different.

                                                                            1. 3

                                                                              1 grumpy jerk who clearly didn’t want to be there, 2 decent guys & a third who was OK but stone walled me when I asked questions about the problem he posed. Which was a little weird, but there it is.

                                                                              (CtCI has 5 pages on system design & about 100 pages on data structures, algorithms & all the rest. When a quarter of the interview is system design, that’s not going to help you much. There are some good online resources around these days though.)

                                                                1. 29

                                                                  I cannot help myself but to imagine a open source ideas incubator governed by:

                                                                  Antirez, Linus, Mike Pall (LuaJit), Rich Hickey (Clojure)

                                                                  Perhaps, they would find it difficult to work together, but they all have something in common:

                                                                  1. They cannot be easily manipulated
                                                                  2. they do not want to manipulate others
                                                                  3. They are visionaries
                                                                  4. They express themselves through software (on both technical and conceptual levels)
                                                                  5. They work very hard, for very long time, based on a believe and passion alone
                                                                  6. They are not afraid to challenge ‘status quo’

                                                                  The combination of the above, perhaps is rare, and finding a way to explore their combined wisdoms, quirks, and talents – would be very neat and beneficial to society as a whole.

                                                                  If such a cooperative is successful, I would also hope that they would figure out a way to find the next generation of folks so that the process continues.

                                                                  1. 5

                                                                    I like it, but maybe sub Mike Pall with Roberto Ierusalimschy because he seems to meet all the same criteria except has a wider range of projects he’s involved in and presents lots of white papers and research around his projects. [1]

                                                                    No offence to Mike Pall, of course, LuaJIT is still alien software in my book and “he” still could be an anonymous group of genius computer scientists sharing a pseudonym afaik.

                                                                    [1] - http://www.inf.puc-rio.br/%7Eroberto/cvpub.html

                                                                    1. 3

                                                                      Why are there no women in this list?

                                                                      1. 47

                                                                        While I agree with the sentiment, I think the short question comes off as aggressive. Instead, you can make a suggestion to avoid putting all of the onus on the previous commenter.

                                                                        For example, “I noticed your list doesn’t have any women. What about ___ or ___? They have a proven track record on $PROJECT.”

                                                                        It brings attention to talented women in the industry and provides people with a jumping off point to learn about their accomplishments. Asking questions calls attention to biases, but it doesn’t always inform.

                                                                        1. 14

                                                                          Some random posters list if 4 of their favorite open source project leaders doesn’t need to add a token woman. Asking politely would have made it harder to see how completely ridiculous this is.

                                                                          1. -1

                                                                            You mistakenly assumed the sentiment is to call out a user instead of pointing out the systems that have led to there not being a lot of women for them to include.

                                                                            The question is about why there aren’t comparably a lot of women noted in open source and not meant to call out OP directly.

                                                                            Y’all are being defensive where it isn’t needed and taking this personally instead of as a time to reflect on why open source culture is how it is and how behaviors in the current system are the problem.

                                                                            Honestly, with 23 upvotes and 22 downvoting and having to share your defense, all we’ve done instead is identify the problem even more concretely than would have happened if y’all would have taken the comment for what it was and not for what it wasn’t.

                                                                            For those of you labeling this as “off-topic” specifically, I would argue that it isn’t. I’m asking about a list in response to a comment about a list. The list is the topic in context of this thread.

                                                                            Hopefully this comes to fruition, because it’s unfortunately too relevant here. https://lobste.rs/s/lpvcsm/proposal_for_moderation_policies_no_tone

                                                                            1. 6

                                                                              Y’all are being defensive where it isn’t needed and taking this personally instead of as a time to reflect on why open source culture is how it is and how behaviors in the current system are the problem.

                                                                              If you wanted people to reflect on it, then posting a pointed question is not the way to go. Something similar to this would have been waaay better at getting people to think:

                                                                              I’d love to see a few women contributors on that list too. Do you know any who would fit that team?

                                                                              I’m not here to tone police comments because I actually agree with you that we should encourage women to join us in these endeavours, but you are not helping that cause. You are creating division by using bad wording and being more focused on being “correct”. Take this loss and let the issue die down. The trenches have already been dug here.

                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                If you wanted people to reflect on it, then posting a pointed question is not the way to go. Something similar to this…:

                                                                                I’d love to see a few women contributors on that list too. Do you know any who would fit that team?

                                                                                Your new question here has absolutely nothing to do with the one that was posted. monokrome was not looking for someone to offer up the name of a woman in tech, but to discuss the reasons why there might not be one on the list in the first place.

                                                                                I’m not here to tone police comments

                                                                                Seems to me that not only are you here to tone police, but also to police the content of the comment; to divert away from a meaningful and difficult discussion of under-representation (which you have no obligation to participate in), and instead re-frame it as a pedestrian question of “could someone please identify a women in tech”.

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  discuss the reasons why there might not be [a female programmer] on the list in the first place.

                                                                                  Why should this discussion happen on lobste.rs? I thought we only allow content related to programming?

                                                                              2. 4

                                                                                Well, it seems that I misunderstood your comment here. I imagine that many others did too. I think that is the key issue here. Having a comment that explicitly calls out the system instead of the list would have made a difference for me. Calling out just the list makes it seem like the problem is with the person who created the list.

                                                                                As for tone policing, I do believe systemic biases exist and need to be discussed. However, I think the way we discuss them is important.

                                                                                I like lobsters a lot and I don’t like seeing discussions devolve into a locked in flame war. My comment was meant to provide constructive feedback and to take air away from destructive comments. My goal isn’t to prevent you from speaking, but to make it easier for your to be heard, if that makes sense.

                                                                            2. 32

                                                                              Cynical answer: building rep in the open source world takes a lot of time, and it’s been historically so woman-hostile that women haven’t been given a chance to build serious rep.

                                                                              Hopeful answer: Jessie Frazelle, maybe? My niche is dominated by academics so I don’t know a lot of FLOSS names outside of formal methods.

                                                                              1. 6

                                                                                Speaking of Jessie Frazelle, I’ve recently learnt that she’s teaming up with a few other brilliant people at https://oxide.computer/, where you’ll find (among others) Bryan Cantrill and Steve Klabnik.

                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                  Well, that’s cool :)

                                                                                2. 12

                                                                                  Even the women who have built names for themselves in tech, are less likely to be known by men. So there’s that. I can think of a bunch of amazing people but not specifically in open source…

                                                                                  1. 8

                                                                                    Strange assumption. What are open-source projects run by women that people should know about?

                                                                                    1. 30

                                                                                      Cynical comment: Not identifying as a woman, but having “seen some things” over the years, I can’t help but think that some of the reasons we don’t find so many woman leading open source (surely there are many, though!) is because it’s dangerous to put yourself out there as a woman. How many sexual violence threats do you think a woman would receive if they were the maintainer of Redis, very opinionated, and shutdown ideas because they didn’t fit the direction she wanted to take? I bet the number is not 0.

                                                                                      1. 13

                                                                                        You-ain’t-seen-cynical-yet comment: How many death threats do you think a man receives if they’re the maintainer of Redis, very opinionated, etc? The number is very not 0. Anyone who has ever done anything significant has been on the receiving side of some harassment. Today’s effortless communication magnifies the effect, but I’m sure there were people writing “Ο Ευριπίδης τρώει σκατά” on the walls in 420 BC. The difference is whether you let it derail you. The successful ones are the ones who ignore that shit. So why do those who persevere tend to be “privileged”? A very simple psychological reason. Perceived-privilege means having no other face-saving option. If you bail out from a visible position after receiving some harassment and you say “I quit because I felt threatened as a woman” or “I quit because I felt threatened as a person of color” or whatever, there’s a fair chance you’ll be the subject of articles praising your heroism in exposing the harsh reality faced by members of $GROUP who dare to lead. Do the same thing as a straight white male, and, well, you’re a quitter. The narrative expects success from you, it expects you to keep your problems to yourself, and you’d better not have any insecurities. Underdogs are expected to battle with self-doubt; on you, it’s childish and absurd, so forge ahead or be a failure forever.

                                                                                        1. 9

                                                                                          Or maybe it’s because those groups are often at risk in their every day life and take threats on themselves seriously due to past experience?

                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                            That would be a pretty big mistake. Regardless of who you are, the supply of people willing to make threats still outnumbers the supply of people capable of carrying them out a million to one. The harm here comes from labels themselves.

                                                                                            1. 17

                                                                                              I think you’re arguing in good faith, so I’ll provide a good faith response. The problem isn’t one of existence but degree. I’ve been the target of internet outrage mobs and serial harassers, and both are terrifying. I lived through them, yes, but it’s absolutely awful to have someone constantly email you screeds from new, unblocked email addresses about how you’re awful and deserve to die. I’m also a straight (((white))) male and have only really gotten attacked over things I wrote, not my identity. Would I have muscled through it and continued writing if I had gotten 10x the amount of online harassment? I don’t know, maybe I would have managed, maybe it would have been too much for me. But there’s certainly some magnitude of abuse that would have gotten me to stop drawing attention to myself. Women and minorities get more abuse online, so it’s more likely to cross that line.

                                                                                              Summary: everybody has tolerance level, there’s probably no significant difference in what the tolerance level is for men and women, but women get so much more abuse online it’s more likely to cross that tolerance level.

                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                Different people do have different tolerance levels; it’s easy to see that some people withstand massive abuse, and some don’t, and the differentiating factor is self-esteem, or confidence, or arrogance, however you want to interpret it. So why do the ones with that confidence tend to look alike? Freely granted, one reason is because there is injustice in the world, and a track record of success builds confidence.

                                                                                                But that can’t be all either, and here is where my dark fear lies: by labeling people as disadvantaged, we disadvantage them. Psychology is a terribly powerful force. If you believe that the problems you face are the same problems shared by all human beings, trying to make something of our lives in an indifferent universe, then any successful human being can be a role model to draw strength from. If you believe that your problems are special, that only a few share your circumstances enough to understand, then you’re reliant on a role model who is “like you”. That mode of thinking used to be the province of moody teenagers, and growing past it was the sign of an adult — but now it’s just normal, and labeling strongly encourages it. All I want is a world where people tell themselves “I am a human being. I have been blessed with intelligence that can overcome any problem. I cannot ask for any more.”

                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                  So, is your solution is to just ignore the problem and not talk about it? If so, I think that there has been enough proof to show that only makes the problem worse.

                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                    No, just the opposite. If I just wanted to ignore problems and not talk about things, I think I could do that perfectly well on my own, without the aid of the internet. But because I have a foolish compulsion to try to make a positive difference in the world and help other human beings, you see me here. Thankfully for all involved, mostly that compulsion expresses itself as tens of thousands of hours of technical volunteering, but occasionally a bit of freelance philosophizing bubbles up. Agree with me or disagree with me, but kindly don’t misrepresent me.

                                                                                          2. 5

                                                                                            Less death threats than a woman receives. I’ve had multiple people threaten to murder me just because I was streaming video games on Twitch, and I’ve never had more than a dozen or so viewers. If a woman was maintaining something as big as Redis, they’d be getting more death threats than Antirez.

                                                                                            Nobody should be getting death threats, but that’s just the truth.

                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                              I think it’s much more likely that people quit silently all the time, whether they’re URMs or not. It just doesn’t get publicized so much, so it’s not as visible. But when people quit publicly, it’s much more visible, so it’s what we tend to focus on.

                                                                                          3. 3

                                                                                            I am choosing not to answer this because (1) it’s beside the point, and (2) as I said in the remark you’re replying to, nothing comes to mind. I’m not clear why you felt the need to ask for something that I already said I don’t have.

                                                                                          4. 2

                                                                                            Yeah, the way women are treated in open source doesn’t help the situation.

                                                                                          5. 1

                                                                                            I was hoping people would see it this way but it seems everybody takes it defensively instead of identifying problems. Thanks for not being one of them :)

                                                                                          6. 11

                                                                                            What do you hope to gain by asking such a pointed question that comes across as very aggressive?

                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                To be clear: This is not trolling or off topic. This is a reply to a post that directly mentions the comment which it was replying to, and the content that this comment represents is exactly the kind of content that the link represents. I am not trolling, but want you to be aware that this behavior is being noticed.

                                                                                                The constant flagging of comments only proves that flags can’t be used to do anything like banning people, because people are too immature, defensive, and unreasonable to flag properly.

                                                                                            1. 34

                                                                                              And here you see why Antirez wants out.

                                                                                              1. 15

                                                                                                Exactly, too many people in the industry spend their time stirring up controversy. Those folk do not provide solutions and just cause people like Antirez problems and a heacache. They complain and paint people that provide tremendous benefit to the company in a bad light.

                                                                                              2. 18

                                                                                                Go ahead, make your nomination.

                                                                                                1. 11

                                                                                                  Why are there no Uzbekistanis on this list?

                                                                                                  1. 29

                                                                                                    Алекса́ндра Аса́новна Элбакя́н isn’t Uzbekistani but Kazakhstani (so not part of the usual US/Europe community), but definitely matches the criteria in the list, through Sci Hub challenges the status quo in ways that - in the long term - may exceed even Linus’ contributions and is even a woman (see the question up-thread for why that matters). So, there’s my nomination.

                                                                                                    1. 5

                                                                                                      I don’t know, in the long run, if Sci Hub will be more influential than Linux. But as of 2020 it’s absolutely more influential than Redis, LuaJIT, and Clojure.

                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                        Hahaha, thank you for this answer :)

                                                                                                      2. 6

                                                                                                        Uzbekistanis make up 0.4% of the world population. Women make up ~50% of it.

                                                                                                        1. -2

                                                                                                          Women make up ~50% of it.

                                                                                                          What are you implying exactly?

                                                                                                      3. 1

                                                                                                        Because Redis, Linux, LuaJit, nor Clojure were made by women.

                                                                                                        1. -9

                                                                                                          Because none of them has come out as trans yet.

                                                                                                          1. 6

                                                                                                            Per my sister comment, I don’t think a short, quipy comment helps further this discussion. This comment thread is potentially sensitive and I do not think we should escalate it.

                                                                                                            1. 6

                                                                                                              There is nothing we as users can do. This site is just going to continue going down the shitter unless the admins/mods start enforcing rules, or replacing the terrible, terrible, upvote-comment-tree comment format with a traditional forum layout. If I was running this site, I would ban this person (and everyone who wrote a snarky reply) for 7 days, leave the comment in-tact, and prevent people from replying to it. It’s simple and gets the message across.

                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                Could you link to the comment you’re referring to? I can see a couple candidates and don’t want to misunderstand you by guessing.

                                                                                                                Also, what specific rule would you like to see added and enforced?

                                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                                  “Why are there no women in this list?” is rather passive aggressive and in no way constructive, I think it warrants a temp-ban. It’s a zero effort cheap shot. Look at the comments that spawned from it. Would be a tragedy if lobste.rs became like HN, Reddit, or, godforbid, Twitter. </2 cents>

                                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                                    Not to mention that the poster’s Twitter account is suspended – that takes some effort.

                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                      moved reply to meta thread for the sake of conversation there: https://lobste.rs/s/lpvcsm/proposal_for_moderation_policies_no_tone#c_fu0xzl

                                                                                                                    2. 1

                                                                                                                      Sorry I shouldn’t have used the word “rule”. I don’t think specific rules are strictly necessary. All I’m saying is, you’re admin, it’s your site, you have all the power and can do basically whatever you want. I feel like punishing the bad actors in a public way would fix a lot of things.

                                                                                                                      SomethingAwful and Facepunch had pretty good mod teams and tooling if you want something to go off of.

                                                                                                                    3. 1

                                                                                                                      Well, now we know why N64N64 isn’t a mod.

                                                                                                                  2. 2

                                                                                                                    What is your problem?

                                                                                                                2. 2

                                                                                                                  RMS fails the second criteria? If not, why did you choose not to include him?

                                                                                                                  1. 25

                                                                                                                    I can imagine those four working well together. I cannot imagine them working well with RMS.

                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                      This comment is especially funny when juxtaposed with https://lobste.rs/s/gigoo8/end_redis_adventure#c_tf95fm - as RMS is well known for his ‘gross’ approach to sexual advances.

                                                                                                                    2. 1

                                                                                                                      While I understand the idea, I wonder whether such a thing is in general a good idea. You know, when someone is good and successful at X, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are also good at making others good and successful at X.

                                                                                                                      This is based on a complete assumption. What if these people got successful because they went their own road. I think that’s what these people have in common. Following the steps of one of them closely (which might be the main thing they can provide) might be the complete opposite.

                                                                                                                      Without wanting to go too far from that thought, I also see that in day to day work, that is people assuming they do the right thing based on someone else having done the same thing. While this of course might be true and is a good approach in many situations, it might not be.

                                                                                                                    1. -10

                                                                                                                      I support colonialism.

                                                                                                                      1. 7

                                                                                                                        Uh, what?

                                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                                          I own a .io domain.