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    I really wish Microsoft would at least open source EdgeHTML if they go this route. All the old NSCA code has got to be gone by now, and it would at least give developers out there another engine to try to write minimalistic browsers in. Remember Firefox was the trimmed down version of Mozilla. Maybe if they open source the Edge/Titan engine, we could see something similar. Maybe people could even get it to compile and build a UI on it for Linux/Mac and others.

    1. 2

      From what I gather EdgeHTML is largely Trident - the IE renderer - with a bunch of legacy cruft removed and some new bits bolted on. This would make it quite possible for some of the original Spyglass/NCSA code to remain buried somewhere and as such it would be hard to certify the code to be ‘clean’.

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      Object-Oriented Programming: An Evolutionary Approach

      I actually went on one of my “deep dive into old computer science things” and got obsessed with pre-NeXT Objective-C. I tracked down a copy of the first edition of this book (the second edition is much closer to the more modern Objective-C that we now know and love).

      I even reached out to Tom Love (co-creator of Objective-C along with Brad Cox) and he was kind enough to recommend Object Lessons as an additional suggestion and dig through his garage for some old documents.

      Either way, it’s an excellent book.

      Object-Oriented Software Construction

      Meyer’s approach to software engineering is…I’m not even sure of the right word. “Perfectionist” might be close, but I don’t want the negative connotation to come through on that. Anyone who wants to study OOP could do with reading his work.

      1. 2

        and got obsessed with pre-NeXT Objective-C

        Do you have any resources for that in particular? I’ve been curious about Objective-C before NeXT, but never ended up diving into it and its history.

        1. 5

          The above mentioned Object-Oriented Programming: An Evolutionary Approach is good, of course.

          I read a lot of NeXT documentation, though again I was more interested in the pre-NeXT days.(I briefly had a NeXTstation set up in my living room. That was fun.)

          I bought a copy of “Objective-C: Object-Oriented Programming Techniques” by Pinson for like fifteen cents from Amazon; that was all right but not great.

          Most interesting was the original “Object-Oriented Pre-Compiler” paper, which I believe was published in Communications of the ACM but I’m not exactly sure where I got it. It documented a very early implementation where methods were invoked using a rather…awkward…syntax.

          I found references here and there to the various “ICpaks” that PPI (later Stepstone) released (ICpak101 was the core collection classes and ICpak102 was the GUI, IIRC). These were very different from the later NeXTstep/OPENSTEP classes, and really nice in their own ways. They were somewhat documented in the Evolutionary Approach book as well.

          Sadly, I was never able to get the Holy Grail that I was looking for: copies of the original PPI compiler/ICpak/library manuals. Those whom I reached out to (Brad Cox, Tom Love, and others) were unable to find their copies or were unwilling to part with them (which is understandable).

          If you’re interested, the Portable Object Compiler implements a pre-NeXT (but still post-ancient) Objective-C, and its manual describes its “ObjectPak”, which is more in line with the original “ICpaks” than NeXTstep. I still much prefer Objective-C to C++.

          1. 2

            The Object-Oriented Pre-Compiler: programming Smalltalk-80 methods in the C language is the citation (and if you’re an ACM member, the full article is linked there).

            1. 1

              You weren’t kidding about if an ACM member: couldn’t find a legal copy anywhere other than paywalls. ResearchGate’s at least has “request full text” button. Did at least stumble on an interesting, historical submission for Tuesday.

              1. 3

                The Object-Oriented Pre-Compiler: programming Smalltalk-80 methods in the C language

                http://sci-hub.tw/10.1145/948093.948095

                1. 2

                  I did say “legal.” ;)

                  1. 3

                    For all intents and purposes that article should be freely available by now. That it isn’t is just a bug in the system, a blip on the line, a hiccup in the clockwork and as such something the ’net has been designed to route around. Which it does.

            2. 2

              Thank you for the detalied response!

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          Question for the group. If you use Stylus (or used to use Stylish), what do you use it for?

          I headed over the the userstyles.org site and most of the styles seem to be “dark themes” or other cosmetic changes like changing the background of a site. Are there more practical uses of the extension? Can it modify HTML or Javascript (where the real power would be), or is it CSS only?

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            other cosmetic changes like changing the background of a site

            You call it cosmetic changes, other people call it accessibility.

            1. 7

              I use it to tweak the layout of some of the sites I use, like moving a fixed top navbar to the side, and making it smaller. Or making narrow columns wider. Small stuff like that, which make the browsing experience much more bearable. I rarely use the social or sharing aspects of it. I haven’t found anything useful there, and I’m not sharing my tweaks either, because they’re very personal anyway.

              I rarely use it to hide things, my adblocker can do that more conveniently indeed.

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                I apply a style of body { max-width: 800px; } on a few blogs that weren’t designed with wide browser windows in mind—they spill text across the entire width of the screen, which makes them really hard to read. (You could use your browser’s “reading mode” to fix this, too, but this CSS change usually does the job without breaking any layouts.)

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                  Now that I’ve started using Dark Reader, I use Stylus for well-made, site-specific dark themes. Previously I was using the Gruvbox Dark Everywhere userstyle, but its shotgun approach leaves much to be desired. Beware: Dark Reader has some major performance issues on Firefox.

                  Edit: My installed themes (which I enable along with Dark Reader after sunset): https://ptpb.pw/nUrG.png

                  Edit 2: Also I enable the Firefox and Tree Style Tabs dark themes. This really needs to get more streamlined.

                  Edit 3: And then I get to enable dark/night mode on sites that support it natively, one-by-one as I visit them. Sigh.

                  1. 2

                    Man, Dark Reader is great. Thanks for bringing my attention to that.

                    1. 1

                      Funny that you mention this. I don’t often long for the days when I had a CSS styling addon installed, but exactly this Dark Reader page made me bob my head back 20cm. That page seems to be made for a mobile phone or tablet screen, not a 27” monitor. Wow.

                    2. 3

                      Fixing fonts on the most obnoxious websites.

                      1. 3

                        I like to use it to remove ads in core apps I use. I’d like to share the styles I create with others who use those apps. I use the free version of toggl, and they have a persistent, animated thing in the bottom-right corner that tells me the benefits of “going pro”. I just made a stylish thing to display: none the element which matches that rule. It’s great.

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                          Is there an advantage to that over the “block element” feature that exist in most ad blockers?

                          1. 1

                            I use brave and Firefox which have some built in blocking. I haven’t thought of that, but I’ll take a look!

                        2. 3

                          I used to use Stylish - and a predecessor the name of which has slipped my mind - to reduce the size of the UI in Firefox - smaller tabs, less wasted space -> more space for page content.

                          1. 2

                            i’m considering using it to shrink the gmail sidebar label font - they recently increased it from the same size as email body text to a size bigger, and it’s very annoying.

                            1. 1

                              I sometimes use it to tweak interfaces, like get rid of annoying panels or adding bold to certain elements

                              1. 1

                                I just started using this again after forgetting that it existed. Another forum I visit regularly now is ad free and doesn’t waste a bunch of whitespace where these were removed. I created an ironic one for hiding the ads for stylish for android on userstyles.org… :D Also, my day job involves using a console that has a lot of useless (to me) menu items - bye bye.

                                1. 1

                                  Can it modify HTML or Javascript (where the real power would be), or is it CSS only?

                                  Is it possible for extensions to request access only to modify CSS?

                                  1. 4

                                    CSS can still exfiltrate sensitive page content (albeit attacks are harder to write).

                                    1. 1

                                      If you write your own CSS this is no longer a problem :P.

                                      1. 1

                                        That’s good to know. I’m going to do some reading on this, but do you have anything you recommend?

                                    2. 1

                                      There are two sites I frequent that have awful stylesheets that I can’t stand so I have custom stylesheets that make them look better.

                                    1. 1

                                      Why, installing Yggdrasil in Debian isn’t that hard: fire up a VM with a few MB of memory - it doesn’t take that much to run a 1992 (alpha) - 1994 (release) Linux distribution so 8MB should suffice. Download the distribution [1] and install it, done. I preferred Slackware as that had a bit more continuity, followed by RedHat and later Debian but Yggdrasil did have its share of afficionados.

                                      [1] https://archiveos.org/yggdrasil/

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                                        Note: The update is that it turns out that they do allow it (if you disable secure booting), but there is no driver for the T2/SSD in Linux yet.

                                        1. 1

                                          It is not clear that it is simply a driver issue. It may be that the T2/SSD is actually locked out of use. I have seen no hard information on this either way.

                                          1. 2

                                            At least it sounds like it isn’t intentional if this posting on the comments of the article is legitimate (contains link to image of a twitter conversation with Craig Federighi): https://bbs.boingboing.net/t/apples-new-bootloader-wont-let-you-install-gnu-linux-updated/132982/2

                                            1. 1

                                              Looking at the stackexchange link, turns out T2 does work as a “normal” NVMe controller!

                                              But it shuts down the whole machine in 10-30 seconds, because it seems to detect an unauthorized OS.

                                              Maybe a driver could be made that does whatever a bootcamped Windows 10 does to appear legitimate…

                                          2. 1

                                            I’m no fan of Apple’s recent Mac hardware, but my first thought was “Don’t most people turn off Secureboot by default anyway?” :)

                                            1. 3

                                              For most values of “most people”, I’d find that hard to believe tbh

                                              1. 2

                                                I have utterly anecdotal evidence that says that whenever anyone has problems with any UEFI Linux install the first suggested step for remediation is “Turn off Secureboot.”

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                                                  Most people don’t have problems with UEFI Linux because most people don’t install Linux onto hardware that didn’t ship with it.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    OK I’m coming from a place of ignorance so I’ll bite. Do you have actual data on that? I don’t get that impression from the various mailing lists, forums etc. Do people posting quesetions there represent the vocal minority?

                                                    1. 3

                                                      Linux: 2.04%, macOS: 9.40%, Windows: 88.05%

                                                      Linux has a much higher market share on smartphones, but those ship with it, rather than having the end-user install it.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        I’m seeing several people, including you, dance around the actual question.

                                                        “Of Linux users, how many install Linux on machines themselves and how many buy machines that come with Linux pre-installed?”

                                                        Your data has no bearing on this question.

                                                        Or did I mis-understand what we were actually talking about here?

                                                        1. 1

                                                          The desktop, where Linux is not shipped on most machines, has few Linux users.

                                                          Smartphones and servers, where Linux is very popular, either ship with Linux or with no operating system at all.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            Knowing that few end-user systems (desktop, laptop, notebook, convertible, tablet, whatever…) are shipped with Linux it becomes clear that there are in fact many who install Linux on systems which did not come with it. To get at actual numbers you’d have to get sales data from the likes of Dell and HP as well as those from companies which specialise in Linux systems.

                                                            Another way to gage the interest in installing Linux on non-Linux systems is by looking at the mailing lists and forums for Linux distributions where you’ll find a plethora of questions and answers on the subject of installing Linux on this or that system. Yet another way is to look for the number of downloads for Linux distributions. Some distributions keep a tally of how many installs there are, these can provide some data.

                                                            Remember the times when people spoke about the ‘Microsoft Tax’ or ‘Windows Tax’ which was levied when buying hardware? Those were people who wanted to install something else on their store-bought systems, usually some form of Linux, less frequently a BSD or something else.

                                                            Seen as a percentage of total sales the number of systems which are destined to have their Windows replaced with Linux is small. However, this small percentage still represents a considerable number of systems. How many of those come with UEFI and ‘secure boot’ remains to be seen, often Linux is installed after the machine has been used previously with Windows and as such the machines on which Linux is installed are often from a previous generation. These machines often did not come with/were not encumbered with UEFI and ‘secure boot’.

                                                      2. 2

                                                        Linux desktop marketshare is relatively (to the size of overall desktop usage) still a small percentage (from what I understand), so presumably “most people” don’t ever install Linux at all?
                                                        Of those that do use Linux, it would certainly be interesting to see how many of them run on systems that both support secureboot, and have it enabled.

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                                              Do you really need to have root privileges on your Google-free phones?

                                              I would like to keep my phone as much secure as possible, and having root privileges enabled doesn’t seem like a smart choice if you have security in mind too.

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                                                Yes. I’m the owner of the hardware, I want to be able to do whatever I want with it, including the things that not having root would prevent me from doing.

                                                1. 3

                                                  The problem with this idea is that you are also allowing the possibility for any applications you install to also use root. Some ‘root access management’ apps will prompt you, etc, but then you’re just depending on them to not have any issues that would allow an app to circumvent their checks.

                                                  I am the owner of my hardware, and I choose to not allow applications to assume more permissions than the OS was designed to allow them to have.

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                                                    That just sounds like an argument for improving those components instead of giving up control altogether.

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                                                      Not at all what I intended. I’m merely pointing out the downfall in enabling root access on current mobile operating systems. I would use root in an OS which I could control, sadly there’s no longer any mobile device supporting one (RIP N900), but hopefully there will be a new one soon (Librem 5 cannot come fast enough).

                                                      1. 2

                                                        That makes sense.

                                                        1. 2

                                                          My N900 is still kicking, but yeah it’s not my daily driver because browser reasons :P

                                                          Besides Librem5, we’re also waiting on the Pyra. The Gemini is here today running Debian as an alternate. Also running ubports on a Nexus 5 can get you close.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            Of course! There’s also postmarketOS.

                                                      2. 3

                                                        There used to be a lot of good use cases for rooting an Android phone, because there were a lot of reasonable things you needed root to do (run VPNs, block ads, change DNS settings, put background apps to sleep) and a lot of the culture of that time has persisted in the Android modding community. But over time, most of the things you really needed root for have been either added to the base system (doze, night mode) or made available to a user-space API (VPNs) or developer settings. With Android 7 or later, the only thing you really would need root for is micro-tweaking kernel settings, and that’s really only useful when you’re trying to get the most out of older hardware. Now it’s worth the little bit of extra security to leave your phone/tablet unrooted.

                                                        1. 4

                                                          There used to be a lot of good use cases for rooting an Android phone

                                                          If you’re using a carrier-branded phone there are still reasons:

                                                          • Debloating/disabling undesirable preinstalled apps.
                                                          • Fine-grained app permissioning (xposed framework).
                                                          • App hibernation and background running control.
                                                          • DNS choice and filtering.
                                                          • Ad Blocking.
                                                          • Enabling hotspot support (varies with carrier).
                                                          1. 4

                                                            Some of those (DNS and ad blocking) no longer require root.

                                                            If you are able to unlock the bootloader and run something like LineageOS, then you effectively resolve the remaining issues without rooting the device.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              Oof. Yeah, though to be totally pedantic, you could install an unrooted LineageOS on that phone (if it, or similar, is available), and get most of those. Blokada gives you DNS choice and filtering and ad blocking, and it doesn’t require root (it uses the VPN framework).

                                                              1. 1

                                                                Blokada

                                                                I’ll give that try. I found DNS66 to cause long hangs and random lookup failures and, of course, AdAway requires root.

                                                      3. 4

                                                        The ‘root access’ moniker is a bit of a misnomer as it makes many people seem to think disabling it disables the root account. This is of course not what happens, Android being *nix underneath it by definition has a root account which is used to boot the device and run a host of services. Any bugs which would give rise to local root access still apply no matter whether a working su is installed or not. If the installed su app is working as it should the attack surface is only raised by so much as the user remains vigilant over granting root to specific apps. Any app which does get root can abuse it so this privilege should only be bestowed upon those bits which are ’ known to be trustworthy’. In other words, the security of a ‘rooted’ device depends for a large part on the judiciousness by which the user grants or denies root access, just like the security of a firearm depends on the hand wielding it.

                                                        1. 1

                                                          depends for a large part on the judiciousness by which the user grants or denies root access

                                                          Not entirely. It also depends extremely heavily on the mechanism used to manage root access (e.g. SuperSu). If that application has issues that can be exploited to go around the user intervention, then all bets are off. Suddenly your firearm is capable of firing without you touching it.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            If the installed su app is working as it should the attack surface is only raised by so much as the user remains vigilant over granting root to specific apps.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              Ok, but my point is that’s a mighty big assumption to make.

                                                        2. 3

                                                          Like any decent system, every root requests are accepted (or rejected) by the user.

                                                          It’s not like you installed an app from the store and it uses root without you knowing.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            You’re assuming the root manager software (like Magisk, or SuperSU back in the days) has no security issues whatsoever.

                                                            Mind you, I’m not saying that commonly used root managers are compromised, but I believe that the current status of Android rooting management is inherently insecure because we rely on software not always audited. I prefer having a custom ROM (maybe even with a custom boot chain of trust!) without root rather than leaving such a wide attack surface available for an hypothetical rogue party.

                                                          2. 1

                                                            because if someone stole your phone and guessed your root password they could install whatever they want on it?

                                                            1. 1

                                                              Is this an argument against my thought? If yes could you please elaborate more? I’m curious about your point of view, and I’m afraid my (lacking) knowledge of English didn’t help me understanding your reply.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                i’m confirming how having root access hurts security. which attacks can be carried out when your phone is rooted, which couldn’t be carried out if it weren’t rooted?

                                                                1. 3

                                                                  An app with root access can read the private data of other apps, and can generally disregard the permissions system, so that’s two major classes of things there.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    but the user would be able to decide whether to run a program as root, wouldn’t they?

                                                                  2. 3

                                                                    One could trick the user into installing an app that bypasses root managers and gets root permissions directly. From there, the same rogue app could steal basically everything from the user’s phone without even noticing anything.

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      why would the app be run as root? on linux i can build and run programs as my user account without giving the programs root permissions. i install programs with sudo, but then i’m running the package manager which is code i trust, not the programs i’m installing which i trust less. after installing a program, i still have to explicitly run it as root. does android work differently?

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                                                              Whatever the reason for this situation, if you really care about running Linux, then buy hardware that can easily run Linux. This is a good way to vote with your wallet for Linux support.

                                                              1. 13

                                                                Not just Linux, really. Anyone who’d like to run anything besides whatever Cupertino deems allowable for ‘their’ hardware would do well to avoid these products as they have a built-in expiry date: a time will come when Apple deems this hardware ‘to old’ to ‘support’ - as in ‘provide software signed with the correct key to allow it to be installed’ - without the normal escape route.

                                                                1. 8

                                                                  There’s another reason to avoid Apple hardware if you don’t intend to run an Apple OS on it: the hardware prices are so high in part because they subsidize software development. Why pay for something you don’t intend to use?

                                                                  1. 4

                                                                    This is my feeling as well. The machines are IMHO not worth the premium you pay (in price and in PITA) if you’re not going to be using OS X.

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      My previous employer issued everyone with a macbook, but let them install whatever OS they wanted.

                                                                      1. 5

                                                                        My current one gave us a choice. I chose an X1 Carbon Thinkpad. Most blissful Debian experience ever.

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          OpenBSD devs seem to use a lot of Thinkpads. If FreeBSD and NetBSD work well, too, then extra BSD support might be a reason to vote with the wallet on them, too.

                                                                  2. 2

                                                                    Its true that no one is buying a macbook to install linux on it but how will people ever try linux when most people have laptops that block them from installing alternative OSs. Most of my first experiences with linux are with a macbook I already owned before using linux.

                                                                    1. 3

                                                                      Its true that no one is buying a laptop to install linux on it

                                                                      Say what now? Surely that’s not what you meant to say? Many of use buy laptops with the intent of only (or mainly) running Linux on them.

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        Sorry I meant to say no one is buying a macbook to only use linux on it.

                                                                      2. 2

                                                                        I’d say that is as far from ‘true’ as can be. I never bought a laptop which I did not install Linux on.

                                                                        It is far more likely that it is ‘true’ that nobody buys a laptop to install MacOS or Windows on for the simple reason that these tend to come pre-installed. Yes, there is the very occasional ‘hackintosh’ but those are far more rare than Linux installs. Another thing which is certainly true is that many people buy laptops with MacOS or Windows on them, only to wipe these to install Linux.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          I’d say that is as far from ‘true’ as can be. I never bought a laptop which I did not install Linux on.

                                                                          Sorry I made a mistake. Meant to type no one is buying a macbook to only use linux.

                                                                    1. 4

                                                                      If your problem is Google being greedy for data the solution is fairly simple: get Google off your device. In other words, make sure your devices run - for as much as possible - only code you explicitly allow them to run.

                                                                      This can be done with Android. It can not be done with iOS. In both cases you’ll have to contend with the fact that the ‘radio code’ - the blob of binary code which runs the whatever-G radio the device is equipped with - can be used to all sorts of nefarious things and it fairly certain to either contain loads of known bugs or intentionally introduced backdoors for the TLA’s of the world. Apart from that radio code the device will run an operating system and user applications, both of which can be under your control when running an AOSP-derived Android distribution. The device does not need to run any Google-proprietary code to be able to run Android apps (apart from a few which insist on interfacing with Google Play Services).

                                                                      You seem to trust Apple to ‘do the right thing’ but you do not have anything to base that trust on other than feel-good statements by the company and its disciples. I trust Apple just as much as I trust Google or any other commercial enterprise. With this I mean to say that I trust them to look out for their bottom line as that is what makes them tick. Google currently has a different perspective on how to get that number as high as possible from the way Apple tries to maximise it but maximise the number they shall. As I don’t trust either of them I do my best to stay away from them as much as I can: no Apple anything, no Google Chrome, no stock Android, no Google apps, no Google services, no Google Play. Still I have a fully functional phone running Android, it just happens to run free software wherever possible, minus that currently unavoidable radio blob that is…

                                                                      1. 4

                                                                        trust Apple to ‘do the right thing’ but you do not have anything to base that trust on other than feel-good statements by the company and its disciples.

                                                                        We have a little bit more than that.

                                                                        If Apple got caught violating the trust of users, that bell would ring around the world.

                                                                        I don’t trust either of them.

                                                                        You trust Google. You haven’t read the source code of your phone; it’s like 50GB download last I checked. These builds scripts download more code over the Internet. Nobody can audit that. You also trust the people who made your “custom” android-building toolchain. You trust them (among other things) to identify and remove anything naughty Google has done. Not to mention you trust the guys who made your phone and all the components within. I have no idea who you’d sue with a random Android phone (some distant Chinese company?), let alone with some “custom Android” installed on it..

                                                                        no stock Android

                                                                        Running a custom Android makes you a QA of one. It’s like running Gentoo. You get to learn from nobody’s mistakes but your own.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          I haven’t read all source code, only those parts of it needed to port Android to the three devices I ported it to. Other people have read other parts of it, all of them outside of Google. I’m not the only one using this particular custom Android distribution (which started out as Cyanogen but now is called Lineage, parts of which I remove as I don’t need them, more so in the Cyanogen-days when they started messing with their own ‘Cyanogen login’).

                                                                          That bit about running custom Android or Gentoo implying you have a ‘QA of one’ is just plain silly as you will probably understand yourself. Both custom Android as well as Gentoo builds come from the same source - plus or minus a few tailored modifications - and are built using the same tool chain. The results are very similar if not identical (with reproducible builds), except for the modified bits that is. I won’t loose any sleep over the fact that my personal modifications have a ‘QA of one’, just like I don’t loose sleep over the fact that the house I built and live in has a ‘QA of one’, the bread I bake has a ‘QA of one’ or any other fruits of my labour are not certified by some random committee.I trust my own observations well enough, the thing works, it does what I want it to do, it is silent on the network unless I want it to send or receive data, it runs for more than a week on a single battery charge where stock distributions won’t last more than 2 days.

                                                                          1. 1

                                                                            I don’t loose sleep over the fact that the house I built and live in has a ‘QA of one’

                                                                            I live in civilisation though, and didn’t build my own house.

                                                                            I do programming.

                                                                            Some other guy builds houses.

                                                                            The guy that built my house built hundreds of houses, and he had to get trained and certified by a random committee that trained and certified hundreds and perhaps thousands of other guys, and so on.

                                                                            I think him making a mistake that harms me is unlikely, but my civilisation will promises me recourse if he does.

                                                                            I like that. I don’t want to learn how to build houses, since it would certainly take time away from my programming.

                                                                            Other people have read other parts of it, all of them outside of Google.

                                                                            Given the preposterousness of the claim (reading 50GB of anything), I’m not sure I understand what you expect here. I don’t believe you?

                                                                            1. 2

                                                                              Please calm down and think about what you just said:

                                                                              Other people have read other parts of it, all of them outside of Google.

                                                                              Given the preposterousness of the claim (reading 50GB of anything), I’m not sure I understand what you expect here. I don’t believe you?

                                                                              Read again and you’ll see that I stated that other people have read other parts of it, not that other people read all of it. Of course others did read all of it, if only the ones who wrote it in the first place and those who did code reviews but that is besides the point. Also besides the point is the fact that the amount of source used for an Android build is not even close to 50 GB, you might be confused by the size of the repo versus the size of the code used for a single build.

                                                                              But… the thing is that you on the one hand seem to blindly trust Apple - because that is what we are talking about here - without having the ability to so much as peek at the code, while casting aspersion on the idea of building a distribution for your own device ‘because you can not read all the code’. While I’m sure Apple is happy to have customers like you who trust them blindly this does not mean it is the rational thing to do (when thinking about ‘trust’, it can be more rational economically as building your own takes time and effort), certainly not more rational than building your own

                                                                              I think the conclusion to draw here is that you prefer to put your trust in others and look to your civilisation for recourse when those others fail your trust, while I prefer to trust my own instinct and insight and as such like to get hands-on when building things - whether it be software or hardware (from electronics to houses). To each his own, I guess.

                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                I think the conclusion to draw here is that you prefer to put your trust in others and look to your civilisation for recourse when those others fail your trust, while I prefer to trust my own instinct and insight and as such

                                                                                or, it is my own instinct and insight and such where I come to a completely different conclusion: that civilisation has value. Seriously.

                                                                                the thing is that you on the one hand seem to blindly trust Apple - because that is what we are talking about here

                                                                                I trust one party who might fail me, who has a lot to lose, whereas you trust dozens of parties, any of which might fail you, and none of which has anything to lose.

                                                                        2. 2

                                                                          CopperheadOS was a great Android ROM for this. Since the lead developer left the company, I suppose plain AOSP is the next best bet? I’m also looking forward to the Librem5 phone.

                                                                          1. 3

                                                                            If you’re interested in CopperheadOS, you might like this presentation by Konstantin Ryabitsev[1]:

                                                                            Life Behind the Tinfoil: A Look at Qubes and Copperhead (youtube)

                                                                            [1] Director of IT Infrastructure Security at The Linux Foundation

                                                                        1. 3

                                                                          Personally, I don’t really like Reddit threads at all, even on lobsters I don’t really like them, and any success that lobsters manages to have is in spite of, not because of, this kind of conversation threading. Jeff Atwood already spelled out some common arguments against this kind of threading, but my biggest objection to the Reddit model (and I’m not sure if Atwood is simply unaware of it or just never bothered blogging on it or even doesn’t see it as a problem) is with anonymous voting, not threading:

                                                                          Namely, the two big problems:

                                                                          • You allow people to affect the visibility of posts, which is almost as powerful an ability as posting itself.
                                                                          • And they cannot be held accountable for it.

                                                                          As long as it’s just links to full-blown articles, I’m not sure how much it matters, but within a conversation where you sometimes take an adversarial position with someone else, that’s a terrible ability to give people! Worse, because they’re just votes, it tends to lead to paranoia (“my comment got a -5?! WHY?! Can somebody at least have the decency to tell me why they disagree?!”) and dishonestly (“the rules of the r/rust subreddit say that the downvote button is not a disagree button, but the moderators are completely incapable of enforcing that rule, and even if they could see who was voting or ban someone from voting they can’t read the mind of the voter”).

                                                                          As much as I like, or at least understand the necessity of, gamification at the macro scale of articles and topics, I really do not want to add gamification to an already in-progress conversation. It just adds another layer of tension to what can already be a very tense “I need to avoid allowing myself to get mad at this person, and try to see things from their PoV” angle. And it leads to people optimizing their content for expected number of upvotes from random passers-by instead of trying to be helpful to whoever they’re replying to, because that stuff ends up tied to your ability to use the full features of the site at all.

                                                                          1. 1

                                                                            Amen, sibling!

                                                                            I’ve expressed my dislike of this style of threading elsewhere on Lobsters. If anyone goes so far as to fork the codebase and replace votes with emoji reactions (or nothing at all, but that was my suggestion for preserving the lightweight acknowledgment utility of upvotes), I would happily jump ship. I’d do that myself if I didn’t already have a five year backlog of personal projects.

                                                                            1. 1

                                                                              Emoji buttons can be even worse as those seem to invite hordes of thumbs-up-hearts-for-my-‘friends’-thumb-down-confused-face-for-anyone-else click-bots, an example of which is shown in this Github issue thread:

                                                                              https://github.com/Chocobozzz/PeerTube/issues/1179

                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                Those (emojis) are a tremendous improvement on the previous status quo, which was all of those people posting on the thread until it gets locked.

                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                  We already have adequate clickbot mitigation on Lobsters thanks to the invite tree. I like emoji reaction buttons because they can express nuance and ambiguity without much visual clutter, and only accumulate locally. But I don’t like them as much as I dislike up/down vote buttons.

                                                                            1. 19

                                                                              Please don’t come here to post Reddit drama.

                                                                              Your original story on lightweight linux I believe would’ve been a better submission, since it at least has a little more to engage with.

                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                True, and had that link been posted here I’d have suggested the author to try to think outside of his “8GB RAM, a 4 core i7 CPU and 256GB of SSD storage” bubble. This is not the norm, not yet. Once hardware like that becomes old it might become the norm but we’re not there yet - the world is bigger than those places where such hardware can be had for a day’s worth of income or less. Then again, it might not become the norm at all given the increasing number of single-board computers running Linux here there and everywhere.

                                                                                Also, and more importantly, why whinge about others trying to score points - no matter how worthless - on the size of their Linux distributions? If that is what moves them just allow them the (small) space to do so and continue on your own thing. The same criticism could after all be thrown at those calling themselves cyber security people, now there’s a world full of blown-up claims and characters ripe for the pickin’. I won’t be the one doing the picking though as, again, if that is what moves him so it be.

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  I agree with the sentiment of your post. This is mainly a tangent on the example machine you laid out

                                                                                  I’m very surprised at the current performance levels of machines you can pick up for only a couple hundred dollars or less. If the thing is about having something work on what a random person in the street might have, it’s pretty easy to say that it will be a relatively fast machine (loaded with junk, but fast).

                                                                                  Like my desktop machine from 10 years ago was ~$500 and it was a pretty fast quad core with 8 gigs of ram and a video card!

                                                                                  What is the definition of a low-end machine in this kind of conversation? I suppose that you could be looking at low-end laptops, but even they are really fast nowadays. Maybe at this point “low-end machine” is really “2004 thinkpad”. This is totally cool, in a sense. We’re able to improve the underlying tech without having to throw away machines anymore, and we don’t have to make our perf targets a moving target. If Texas Instruments can keep on selling TI-82s until the end of time, perhaps we can concentrate less on maxing CPU cycles and more on hardware re-use and building new hardware that is good without needing to use a bunch of power to do so.

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    Since I happen to actually use a 2004 Thinkpad - a T42p with a glorious 1600x1200 4:3 screen, a real keyboard and all those other things which make me use this 2GB/1.8GHz Pentium-M relic in lieu of faster, more modern but otherwise sub-optimal alternatives - I could concur.

                                                                                  2. 1

                                                                                    True, and had that link been posted here I’d have suggested the author to try to think outside of his “8GB RAM, a 4 core i7 CPU and 256GB of SSD storage” bubble. This is not the norm, not yet.

                                                                                    Even if it was, a small, lightweight system has the benefit that it is easier to fully understand the system. It’s not for everyone, but one of the nice things of free software is that the people who enjoy it can run that tiny BSD or Arch system on their 64 core 768GB machine.

                                                                                    I don’t feel or see the need to criticize people on either end of the scale.

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  No matter whether the issue is with some imagined ‘community’ (Linux or otherwise) or a specific site (Reddit or otherwise) I’d say the solution is always the same: just ignore those who spout nonsense at you. You know that someone telling you to ‘commit suicide’ over an opinion piece related to the size of a Linux install is not worth your time so just don’t give them any time. Ignore them, block them if you’re into that sort of thing but don’t interact as that is what they’re after. People telling you “you don’t know anything about subject” when you in fact do know something about subject can be ignored as well. People telling you they have “traced (your) IP, they know where (you) live and they’re ‘coming to find (you)’ “ are either deluded and as such not worth your attention - will they come crawling out of the RJ45 socket? - or, if there is cause to take the threat serious in a real way - worth attention by law enforcement in those countries where such is an option. Otherwise you just ignore them just like you ignore those emails which spell out how the Z00perH4CkuRz installed virus-spy-worms into your webcamz and will send pictures of you wacking off to snuff movies to all your relatives unless you pay them $bitcoin.

                                                                                  Just ignore them. Don’t even tell them to get back under their bridges because by doing so you’re feeding them. Ignore, period. Block if you want but don’t respond.

                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                    The ‘desktop’ is whatever the machine happens to stand on, currently the kitchen table. When booted - which I don’t do all that often as the machine quietly goes to sleep when the lid is closed - the screen is black except for a ‘login:’ line top left. Log in and it shows a console in small print - 1600x1200 T42p with a small console font worth of small print. If I want X I run startx which… gives me a black screen with a narrow bar on top:

                                                                                    https://imgur.com/a/Cz6R4sJ

                                                                                    Look well or you’ll miss that bar. Left shows the 9 workspaces and the window management state indicator, middle hte window title (currently not showing any window so no title), right the tray icons (shutter for screenshots, Telegram) and some system state indicators (conky).

                                                                                    A more typical screen looks like this:

                                                                                    https://imgur.com/a/djalosV

                                                                                    10 terminals running various tools - currently working on Peertube.

                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                      Just run your own mail server and create disposable addresses or use a catch-all pattern per user (e.g. username-correspondent_name like frank-microsoft or frank-lobste.rs) with a blocklist for abused addresses. I’ve been doing this for decades now, it works fine, I hardly get any spam in my inbox (once per week or less) and I have a simple way of finding messages pertaining to a given correspondent - just search on the `To:’ address.

                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                        Yes, postfix makes this ridiculously easy. One setting lets you use any valid character as the separator, the recipient_delimiter option. Gmail uses ‘+’, but a ton of websites reject that either because they never bothered to check the RFCs or because they know about the gmail feature and demand your real address instead. I use ‘.’ on my mail server and it works everywhere.

                                                                                      1. 18

                                                                                        I feel like half of modern computing is taking a thing that works and then making it more fragile.

                                                                                        1. 5

                                                                                          The secret to making open source work as a business model.

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            While setting up my first NFS cluster, it occurred to me that it would be useful if my NFS server could mount it’s own exported filesystem–it didn’t take long to discover this would hang the server in short order.

                                                                                            If memory serves there was (and for all I know still is) a deadlock condition between memory allocation and disk buffering triggered with loopback NFS mounts.

                                                                                            Setting aside the “Well stop doing that” resolution to this issue, Does NFS count or not count as ‘modern computing’ here?

                                                                                            1. 5

                                                                                              Loop back NFS should probably work, but I’m not surprised if it probably doesn’t.

                                                                                              But NFS could count. Things like ls used to just work. Stir some NFS into the picture, and you never know if it will work or not.

                                                                                              Now that you mention it, this story is a parallel with ps instead of ls. ps used to just work, but we found a way to add features to the system until we could introduce a failure case where none existed before.

                                                                                              containers : NFS :: processes : files

                                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                                Stir some NFS into the picture, and you never know if it will work or not.

                                                                                                Select comments from the qmail source code:

                                                                                                /* if it was error_exist, almost certainly successful; i hate NFS */
                                                                                                
                                                                                                install.c:  if (close(fdout) == -1) /* NFS silliness */
                                                                                                
                                                                                                qmail-local.c: if (close(fd) == -1) goto fail; /* NFS dorks */
                                                                                                
                                                                                                qmail-recipients.c:  if (close(fdtemp) == -1) die_write(); /* NFS stupidity */
                                                                                                

                                                                                                According to that codebase, NFS is not exclusively silly, dorky, or stupid–but certainly enough to count.

                                                                                              2. 2

                                                                                                A bit off-topic but then again maybe not but the solution to locally mount exported filesystems without hangs, deadlocks or speed penalties is to use bind mounts. I use the following piece of bash-proze on all hosts in my (home) network:

                                                                                                #!/bin/bash
                                                                                                #
                                                                                                # universal access to all nfs-exported files based on hostname
                                                                                                # without speed penalty when using local files by using bind 
                                                                                                # mounts for locally exported directories
                                                                                                #
                                                                                                # hackish but ey, it works...
                                                                                                
                                                                                                key=$1
                                                                                                server=$(echo $key|cut -d '/' -f 1)
                                                                                                hostname=$(hostname)
                                                                                                host=$(host $hostname|head -1)
                                                                                                fqdn=$(echo $host|cut -d ' ' -f 1)
                                                                                                hip=$(echo $host|cut -d ' ' -f 4)
                                                                                                nfs_root=$(egrep '^[^#]*fsid=0' /etc/exports|awk '{print $1}')
                                                                                                case $server in
                                                                                                        $hostname|$fqdn|$hip|localhost|127.0.0.1)
                                                                                                                mntstr="--rbind "
                                                                                                                for dir in $nfs_root/*;do
                                                                                                                        mntpnt=$(echo $dir|sed -e "s#^$nfs_root##")
                                                                                                                        mntstr="$mntstr $mntpnt :$dir "
                                                                                                                done
                                                                                                        ;;
                                                                                                        *)
                                                                                                                mntstr="-fstype=nfs4,noatime,async,proto=tcp,retry=60,hard,intr $server:/"
                                                                                                        ;;
                                                                                                esac
                                                                                                
                                                                                                echo $mntstr
                                                                                                

                                                                                                This script is ‘mounted’ under /net and allows all hosts to access exported filesystems on all other hosts. When accessing locally exported filesystems these get bind-mounted instead of nfs-mounted - problem solved.

                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                  Why does this work?

                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                    It is a mapper script for autofs which produces mount with the parameters to be used to mount a certain path. This mapper interprets paths which start with a hostname or IP address, i.e.:

                                                                                                    /net/my.host.name/home -> host=my.host.name, path to be mounted on that host=/home

                                                                                                    The script is called with the path to be mounted as argument, it extracts the host name (or IP address), determines whether the filesystem to be mounted is local or remote and produces an according string of parameters as output. This output is used by autofs to mount the filesystem. To use the script, add it to auto.master as mapper script for a certain path (as stated I use /net, the script itself is saved as /etc/auto.ufs):

                                                                                                    /net /etc/auto.ufs --timeout=3600

                                                                                                    As said it used bind mounts (remounts of existing directories on secondary locations in the file system hierarchy) to mount NFS-exported directories locally, i.e. it bypasses NFS when those directories are mounted locally.

                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                              If you’re off in the woods, in search of something to fill that cache of burger buns you happened upon and all you have is a stone and sling, squirrel burger it’ll be whether you like it or not. Nothing wrong with them, really, just tree rats with fluffy tails who like to plunder birds’ nests and spend the afternoon chuck-chuck-chucking at each other and anyone who cares to listen. Just make sure to fry ’m up real good and clean your hands before you eat ’m as they can host some nasty diseases.

                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                What’s the output when that extract command against the Wikipedia page is run?

                                                                                                1. 4
                                                                                                  keywordsextract --url https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_optimization --n 3,4
                                                                                                  
                                                                                                  [ 'Search engine',
                                                                                                   'Retrieval May',
                                                                                                   'Search engine Optimize',
                                                                                                   'Search result',
                                                                                                   'Google s',
                                                                                                   'white hat',
                                                                                                   'black hat',
                                                                                                   'web page',
                                                                                                   'Search engine Watch',
                                                                                                   'hat SEO',
                                                                                                   'meta tag',
                                                                                                   'inbound link',
                                                                                                   'web Search',
                                                                                                   'PageRank sculpting',
                                                                                                   'Google announced',
                                                                                                   'Retrieval April',
                                                                                                   'blog Retrieval May',
                                                                                                   'Search engine s',
                                                                                                   'Optimize Search engine',
                                                                                                   'Retrieval August',
                                                                                                   'internal Search',
                                                                                                   'KinderStart s',
                                                                                                   'market share',
                                                                                                   'Danny Sullivan',
                                                                                                   'white hat SEO',
                                                                                                   'engine Optimize Search',
                                                                                                   'Search engine rank',
                                                                                                   'Matt Cutts February',
                                                                                                   'Internet market strategy',
                                                                                                   'World wide web',
                                                                                                   'lead Search engine',
                                                                                                   'engine Watch Archived',
                                                                                                   'black hat SEO',
                                                                                                   'Search engine market',
                                                                                                   'v Google',
                                                                                                   'Retrieval March',
                                                                                                   'Google blog',
                                                                                                   'mobile Search',
                                                                                                   'Search quality',
                                                                                                   'root Directory',
                                                                                                   'Google Penguin',
                                                                                                   'Google Caffeine',
                                                                                                   'personal Search',
                                                                                                   'site s',
                                                                                                   'page s',
                                                                                                   'provide information',
                                                                                                   'page factor',
                                                                                                   'org Retrieval June',
                                                                                                   'ericgoldman org Retrieval',
                                                                                                   'blog ericgoldman org',
                                                                                                   'market Law blog',
                                                                                                   'amp market Law',
                                                                                                   'Technology amp market',
                                                                                                   'engine Watch March',
                                                                                                   'Search engine Land',
                                                                                                   'engine Watch Retrieval',
                                                                                                   'early Search engine',
                                                                                                   'York time Retrieval',
                                                                                                   'Search engine result',
                                                                                                   'Search result page',
                                                                                                   'Google s motion',
                                                                                                   'granted Google s',
                                                                                                   'state District Court',
                                                                                                   'United state District',
                                                                                                   'dominant Search engine',
                                                                                                   'Search engine Traffic',
                                                                                                   'grey hat SEO',
                                                                                                   'Search engine guidelines',
                                                                                                   'black hat technique',
                                                                                                   'robot txt file',
                                                                                                   'Search engine crawler',
                                                                                                   'Google Search Console',
                                                                                                   'Search engine index',
                                                                                                   'understand Search engine',
                                                                                                   'Search engine Google',
                                                                                                   'market strategy SEO',
                                                                                                   'web Search engine',
                                                                                                   'Wall Street Journal',
                                                                                                   'Adversarial information Retrieval',
                                                                                                   'AIRWeb Adversarial information',
                                                                                                   'target market',
                                                                                                   'keyword density',
                                                                                                   'mobile device',
                                                                                                   'penalize website',
                                                                                                   'software engine' ]
                                                                                                  Search engine optimization.txt file was saved!
                                                                                                  
                                                                                                1. 15

                                                                                                  Hot take: I love this.

                                                                                                  While it’s clear that DRH is a devout Christian (or an expert satirist), he also takes pains to mention several times that he is not putting this out in order to try to enforce Christian beliefs—or even values—in his community. He also adds, which is quite canny and also unusual, that his expectation is not that failure to comply 100% with the CoC should result in expulsion or blacklisting.

                                                                                                  But he is actually acknowledging: people have adopted Codes of Conduct for the purpose of regulating behavior within contained communities of practice for thousands of years in nearly every culture, at least any culture with any kind of monastic tradition. If we feel the sting of an unregulated community, where toxicity damages the spirits of the people we would like to contribute, why not start there?

                                                                                                  I’m afraid it will fall on deaf ears because many people—on both sides of the CoC debate—have an immediate allergy to any mention of religious practice. I hope they’re given some time to see this code put into practice.

                                                                                                  1. 10

                                                                                                    A large part of this is because organised religion in general, has a pretty fucking horrific history of treating certain groups of people terribly.

                                                                                                    In western society/culture/countries, (some parts of) Christianity has not just a history, but a current-day penchant for treating some of those same groups of people, as shitty as the law will allow them, and trying their damndest to reverse whatever protection laws do provide.

                                                                                                    I’m a straight while male, but I can see plenty of reasons why almost any demographic other than my own would take issue with using Christianity as the basis of a “treat people right” guide.

                                                                                                    Edit to clarify: it’s not just christianity that has treated groups of people like shit, but this CoC is linked heavily to Christianity and Christians do currently treat some of those same groups of people like shit.

                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                      Say the same thing about muslims and you’d be shouted out of the server by hordes of “good” people.

                                                                                                      Christianity is an enormous box containing all from the Swedish (formerly state) church which professes a form of liberation theology where god is gender-neutral and no longer a “lord” as that does not sound inclusive enough to fundamentalist sects who stand next to the road with signs professing all from the end of the earth to “whatever bad happened is your own fault because you allow gay people to be gay people”. The Benedictines have been around for a while, they tend not to do the latter and are far from the former and their Rule is, if clearly religiously tainted, a usable abstraction of the monastic ideal. Software developers as a rule are not medieval monks living in poverty with a vow of obedience which makes parts of the Rule inapplicable but compared to the intersectionalist religious pamphlets which are being used by other projects this one is no worse and in many ways a lot easier on the mind because its religious intentions are so clearly stated (and as such easily ignored by those who prefer to stay away from organised religions). The whole of the thing could be compressed into “do not do unto others what you would not have done upon yourself” which gives room for future abbreviation.

                                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                                        As I said elsewhere here and on HN, I don’t see why this CoC or any such agreement needs to be more complex than “respect people”.

                                                                                                        If someone needs it spelt out more clearly than that, do so, when the need arises.

                                                                                                        Defining such a specific list of rules (either in this or in other verbose CoC’s), is micromanaging to the ridiculous extreme. If we file a feature request, we don’t preface it with a “how to type” or “basics of $X language” handbook, because we trust that people understand those concepts on their own.

                                                                                                        1. 6

                                                                                                          The reason is moderation, the vast majority of the rule of law in any country could be boiled down into “don’t do bad stuff,” but then when it comes to judgement who defines “bad”?

                                                                                                          Without a CoC or Terms and Conditions by another name; moderation of large communities becomes messy, easily corrupt and non-transparent with different moderators treating people differently based upon personal preference.

                                                                                                          With a CoC/T&C the moderation team have a set of guidelines that they must follow in their moderation duty, this gives a line in the sand that the community know they should not cross and the moderators know they should apply.

                                                                                                          For the majority of people that line is pretty obvious without needing to read the CoC, for a select few however, they need “respect people” spelling out.

                                                                                                      2. 4

                                                                                                        Christianity in particularly

                                                                                                        Christianity has far from a monopoly on human suffering and shitty behavior. Pretty much any organized system of beliefs or tribe of sufficient population will end up with a history of treating some subset of people terribly.

                                                                                                        Please don’t be inaccurate.

                                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                                          You’re right. I’ll amend.

                                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                                            Agree. Looking at the people acting offended, it feels that they are largely angry that SQLite didn’t pick their (corporate) religion.

                                                                                                          2. 1

                                                                                                            In western society/culture/countries, (some parts of) Christianity has not just a history, but a current-day penchant for treating some of those same groups of people, as shitty as the law will allow them, and trying their damndest to reverse whatever protection laws do provide.

                                                                                                            But that has nothing to do with Christianity. If those people happened to have a different religion they wouldn’t be different people, they’d just do nasty things for other reasons.

                                                                                                            Countries where other religions have historically dominated are no different in terms of whether they have abusive practices or whether they have bigotry. And it’s pretty obvious from the wide variety of different types of Christianity practiced in different places, from Sweden to Subsaharan Africa, that the culture and socioeconomic status of people is what determines their behaviour, and religion is just an excuse to be nice or an excuse to be nasty, not the cause of nicety or nastyness.

                                                                                                            1. -1

                                                                                                              Edit to clarify: it’s not just christianity that has treated groups of people like shit, but this CoC is linked heavily to Christianity and Christians do currently treat some of those same groups of people like shit.

                                                                                                              Yes, and so do the intersectional feminists who push for entirely-serious codes of conduct. Publishing this explicitly-Christian CoC, even if the author was sincere about valuing the rules of the Benedictines as a way of ordering human communities, has the satirical effect of making the feminist codes of conduct seem not all that different from the codes of conduct of a competing religious tradition.

                                                                                                            2. 8

                                                                                                              I agree. I think the Rule of St Benedict is interesting, but this is real magic:

                                                                                                              However, those who wish to participate in the SQLite community, either by commenting on the public mailing lists or by contributing patches or suggestions or in any other way, are expected to conduct themselves in a manner that honors the overarching spirit of the rule, even if they disagree with specific details. Polite and professional discussion is always welcomed, from anyone.

                                                                                                            1. 3

                                                                                                              Finished the outside of the extension (24m2 in two floors) to our 17th century farmhouse I’m building, now I’ll start on the inside - clear out organic material which made its way into the crawl space, put plastic on top, put in underside of floor, insulation on top,wooden floor on top of that, etc. Listen to Jordan Peterson discussing something with someone while working, most likely. Maybe Aron Flam (a Swedish stand-up comedian) vs. David Eberhart (a Swedish psychiatrist who tries to battle the Swedish ‘gender mafia’ who’ve been using a whole country as a social experimenting ground for decades.

                                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                                mutt when in a terminal, claws when in X, K9 when using mobile, Roundcube when using a browser, grep -r something Mail/Archive when searching for a needle in a haystack (where ‘haystack’ stands for mail archives going back 21 years).

                                                                                                                1. 6

                                                                                                                  Several 2004 vintage ThinkPad T42p’s, mostly. Reason: good screen, good keyboard, a relatively sturdy and repairable machine which runs Linux just fine. It has two disadvantages compared to more modern machines: the maximum memory capacity is 2GB (no way around this) and it uses a PATA interface (solved by using an inline PATA-SATA adapter).

                                                                                                                  Developing on older machines makes sure whatever you develop works on older machines.

                                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                                    ThinkPad T42p

                                                                                                                    Just curious what distro / wm / setup you use to get maximum mileage out of such hardware?

                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                      Debian (sid), booting to the console, running X11 through Xsession (startx), Xmonad. The only area where older hardware like this really shows its age is when browsing Javascript-heavy sites. uBlock in ‘advanced’ mode (plus uMatrix, when desired) helps here. I run heavier jobs on the servers, currently two Intel SS4200’s (Intel E2220@2.4GHz, 2GB) soon to be replaced with a HP ProLiant DL380 G7 (dual X5650@2.66GHz, 128GB).