Threads for akacase

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    Is it comfortable to use the thumb to move all the time? I ask cause I have some pain to my thumbs after texting too much on my phone…

    I personally use a vertical mouse, and it changed my life. Used to have chronic wrist inflammations, they’re gone now.

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      I use a kensington expert trackball for that reason. It was very alien at first, but now I love it.

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        Same here, I am addicted to using the ring to scroll. I find it much easier on my wrist, but to be honest i have both a mouse and this guy which i’ll alternate between during the day.

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          Ya same setup here, I use a regular mouse for gaming since I just can’t get used to using a trackball for that… but use the trackball for everything else. The kensington’s ring scroll is the bomb!

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            I’m looking for a trackball to buy but I heard bad things about the kensington’s scroll ring. Can any of you confirm if it’s easy to scroll accidentally or not, or if it has any other flaws?

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                I don’t think I’ve ever accidentally scrolled the ring.. Maybe with bad posture it’s easier to? But after looking at mine and just now trying to get it to scroll accidentally… I just don’t see an obvious way to do that with how I place my hand on it when in use. 🤷‍♂️

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          I got thumb tendinitis from using one. I use a vertical mouse now, super happy.

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            Vertical mice make my shoulder seize up something fierce, but I’m really happy with an old CST L-Trac finger trackball. It’s funny how wildly people’s ergonomic needs can vary.

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              CST L-Trac here too! I bought one based only on the internets and I wish it was a bit smaller. Definitely something to try out if you can, especially if your hands ain’t super big. Bought another for symmetry so I don’t end up in a rat race finding something as good but just a bit more fitting.

              And there were the accessories aspect!

              CST’s business is now owned by someone else who I don’t think have the back/forward-button accessory. I kinda regret not having got those. ISTR checking out what they had and it was lame.

              What I’d really like to see are some specs and community creations for those ports, like horizontal scroll wheels, but I think Linux doesn’t really support that anyway.

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            Having used an extensive range of input devices (regular mice, vertical mice, thumb trackballs, finger trackballs, touchpads, drawing tablets, and mouse keys), my thoughts on this are as follows:

            Regular mice are the worst for your health. Vertical mice are a bit better, but not that much. Thumb balls are a nice entry into trackballs, but you’ll develop thumb fatigue and it will suck (thumb fatigue can make you want to rip your thumb off). Finger balls don’t suffer from these issues, but often come in weird shapes and sizes that completely nullify their benefits. The build quality is usually also a mess. Gameball is a good finger trackball (probably the best out there), and even that one has issues. I also had a Ploopy and while OK, mine made a lot of noise and I eventually sold it.

            Touchpads are nice on paper, but in practice I find they have similar problems to regular mice, due to the need for moving your arm around. Drawing tablets in theory could be interesting as you can just tap a corner and the cursor jumps over there. Unfortunately you still need to move your arms/wrist around, and they take up a ton of space.

            Mouse keys are my current approach to the above problems, coupled with trying to rely on pointing devices as little as possible. It’s a bit clunky and takes some getting used to, but so far I hate it the least compared to the alternatives.

            QMK supposedly supports digitizer functionality (= you can have the cursor jump around, instead of having to essentially move it pixel by pixel), but I haven’t gotten it to work reliably thus far. There are also some issues with GNOME sadly.

            Assuming these issues are resolved, and you have a QMK capable keyboard, I think this could be very interesting. In particular you could use a set of hotkeys to move the cursor to a fixed place (e.g. you divide your screen in four areas, and use hotkeys to jump to the center of these areas), then use regular movement from there. Maybe one day this will actually work :)

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              you could use a set of hotkeys to move the cursor to a fixed place (e.g. you divide your screen in four areas, and use hotkeys to jump to the center of these areas),

              isn’t it what keynav does? Never succeeded to get used to it though, couldn’t abandon my mouse.

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              I use an Elecom Deft Pro where the mouse is in the middle of the mouse. I generally use my index & middle finger to move the ball. For me, I find it more comfortable than a normal mouse or one with the ball on the side (thumb operated).

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                everyone is probably different but I have a standard trackball mouse (Logitech, probably older version of this post) and it’s very comfortable. The main thing is to up the sensitivity a lot. Your thumb is precise, so little movement is needed!

                No good for games, perfect for almost everything else.

                (I have used fancy trackballs that a coworker has. It’s terrible for me, I do not get it at all even when trying for hours on end)

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                  Anything you overdo is bad for you.

                  I swap between a trackpad, a mouse and an M570 every few days.

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                  McCarthy had the idea of M-Expressions but people liked programming in S-expressions too much. What’s old is new.

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                    Mathe… I mean Wolfram is basically the M-expr Lisp we never got, warts and all.

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                    @cadey I’ve been considering a moonlander for a bit, and I’m curious about how well it would work for me. I use a Kenisis Advantage now, but want something split for the gaming features, portability, nice lights, programmability, etc.

                    1. What were the keyboards you used before this? Were they “ergo” or more typical kinds of things?

                    2. This can be a bit private, but would you be comfortable sharing your hand or finger length? My fingers are on the stubby side so the cups on the kenisis help with that aspect of “reaching” for keys

                    3. What key layout do you use? QWERTY/dvorak/?

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                      Advantage has better tenting than the Dox or Moonlander. The Lander looks to utilize a similar thumb cluster to the Dox, which has serious issues unless you tent to an extreme amount (55-70°) but the way the Lander is designed, your limited to the amount of tent via the thumb cluster alone. I use an Advantage in tandem with some other splits like the Iris and enjoy them a lot more. You can also QMK your Advantage via the KinT controller (https://github.com/kinx-project/kint), they’re easy and really open up the possibilities. I’m highly opinionated about ergo setups, but my philosophy is that if the board is flat, tent it as high as it’ll go, the neutral position of the wrist is 70°. There’s also the Dactyl and Manuform variations if you’re curious about a more split contoured situation, which are very nice to type on as well. As with everything said, ergonomics is highly personal and what works for certain individuals can be detrimental to others, so experiment and enjoy spending too much money in the pursuit of pain free programming.

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                        As with everything said, ergonomics is highly personal and what works for certain individuals can be detrimental to others, so experiment and enjoy spending too much money in the pursuit of pain free programming.

                        This is worth highlighting. I have an Ergodox and experimented extensively with tenting and tilting. I found that any tent angle pushes my hands upwards a bit relative to my forearm; causing pain in my arm muscles (the one that connects to your pinky and ring finger, forgot the name) after prolonged use.

                        I ended up putting my Ergodox flat on the desk, which has thus far been much more comfortable. For me wrist pain has never been an issue either, instead it has always been either shoulder pain or forearm pain. Tenting doesn’t really help against either from what I’ve experienced, instead it comes more down to the correct desk/chair/etc height, and overall posture.

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                          I found that any tent angle pushes my hands upwards a bit relative to my forearm; causing pain in my arm muscles (the one that connects to your pinky and ring finger, forgot the name) after prolonged use.

                          This is correct, if you tent heavily, you need a keyboard tray or mechanism to lower the mounted surface, like a tripod on the floor so that the two half’s come up to the waist or a sit stand desk, where you can lower the table where your forearms are at an optimal angle. I tent with primarily 60% and lower boards, so I have my table almost sitting on my legs as I type and when I use my Advantage, I use it on my lap with a trackball in the center.

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                        1. DasKeyboard Ultimate, Logitech MX keys, Logitech G810, Apple butterfly
                        2. my middle finger is 5u long almost exactly
                        3. colemak
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                          does it confuse people that your keys are labeled qwerty but actually colemak?

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                            My fiance’s reactions are priceless. My favorite in recent memory is “your layout is fucking crazy”.

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                        ergonomics is another reason to use desktop computers, if you actually care about looking at a monitor at the correct height and typing on an input device that won’t kill your wrists, desktops make a lot more sense. The laptops I use at work are just really crappy portable desktops, at least, how I use them.

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                          Yeah, due to my history w/ RSI, using a laptop for any extended duration (> 2 hours or so) is really not viable. When you give up the goal of “mobile computing” it really stops making sense having a laptop. I have one that I bring with me on work trips and whatnot (granted, those won’t be happening for a while). My desktop was cheap to build, is incredibly powerful (which is great when working in compiled environments), upgradeable at actual consumer prices. As you mentioned, I also invested in building a desktop that is ergonomic and comfortable. The whole thing was (desktop, peripherals, monitor, desk) was less than the price of a premium Macbook.

                          I think laptops are great and have an important place for a majority of users, but it’s worth raising that the alternatives are real and viable.

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                            Most laptops have a way to plug in an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Then your desktop computer and your portable computer are the same thing.

                            In fact, despite being a computer nerd, I decided years ago that I would probably not buy another desktop computer. The take up too much space, they are loud, power-hungry, space heaters and can’t be easily shoved into a backpack in one second. The only thing that would have kept me from moving in this direction is the expandability of the typical tower. But these days, practically all accessories are USB. And I’m not a gamer or bitcoin miner, so I don’t need a high-end CPU or GPU with liquid cooling.

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                            I use mount for this with some call-backs via signal to register call-backs for system signals. I like the mention of clojure’s core asynchronous processes (futures, agents, core.async) and why they are more sane to use than say utilizing the ExecutorService yourself or some other more “native” solution. I have used other threading methodologies with some success though, mostly with claypoole, although I have started using only core.async for most things now though.

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                                “I have an init system. It does a lot of what systemd does.”

                                “What advantages does it have over other init systems?”

                                “It’s not called systemd!”

                                “SOLD!”

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                                  Haha - I think that might be some of the hype, but I do think that there’s merit in the fact that they used a language that’s proven (Scheme/Guile) and easy to parse unlike the custom configuration formats that systemd chose. There’s a lot of power there. I welcome the coming init wars, competition is good.