1. -7

    This is why Rust’s ecosystem is fundamentally and unrecoverabky broken and which is why I’m glad to be able to rely on my package manager and large standard library in C.

    Probably the only reason why Rust crates aren’t pwned to oblivion is the fact nobody cares about Rust other than evangelists and those who still have to find out how messy it is.

    To provide an alternative, look at Ada, an absolutely beautiful and secure language with many great ideas and concepts.

    1. 4

      Probably the only reason why Rust crates aren’t pwned to oblivion is the fact nobody cares about Rust other than evangelists and those who still have to find out how messy it is.

      Okay, I don’t really care about Rust, but I doubt this. If I were to hazard a guess, I’d say that the real reason is more likely that executing effective attacks this way is complicated, it’s still a fairly new area, and the Rust community is waking up and mitigating some of the flaws in what is undoubtedly a flawed system.

      If nothing else, there is a lot of money to be made successfully exploiting Rust, given the number of high-profile projects now adopting it. Like it or not, Rust got past the ‘only evangelists and idiots’ phase a long time ago, and the teams using it are, with the best will in the world, not going to rewrite their code in Ada. I don’t see the point in writing it off like this.

      1. 4

        nobody cares about Rust other than evangelists and those who still have to find out how messy it is

        I care about Rust and I’m neither.

        1. 1

          It’s a little bit easy to just point at the shortcomings of one side but ignore the other. You’re trading a mature ecosystem that allows git commit tagging to something that doesn’t even have a definition of external library except for linking with what ever is currently in your path variables. Which is neither secure nor reproducible.

          What you’re suggesting is that we should all go and rely on your package manager not to break or get pwned (which did happened multiple times in debian). This kind of build system has no idea of versions, security updates, revocation and such, it just ships what happens to be the thing that got into your package management, together with all the changes they thought are useful. (And sometimes, they actually make it worse.)

          There is much to be said about securing build scripts and macros, but most of the things shown in this article also work with c (make scripts, macros, init functions..). And due to all the shortcomings of C it is even easier to hide something in there. When you use what debian ships for TLS, you hopefully trust the debian people (and transitively the authors) and you trust people building your software to have an up to date version of it. When you pin stuff in rust, you trust the people running crates.io (see debian) and the authors that put stuff up there. But your users (or upstream distro) will have to actively select a bad version when building it, to get the same effect. Pick your poison.

          In a perfect world we sandbox any build scripts and macros and use the rust-sec extensions for crates.io to verify the trustworthiness of our dependencies. At that point the only thing that can go wrong is a malicious build, built inside your sandbox, delivered to everyone.

        1. 15

          Note: this article contains inline images of marked classified documents.

          This comment is not intended to spark a discussion; simply put, some people may want to avoid the article for this reason.

          1. 9

            Those images are the same as those found on this webpage: https://nsa.gov1.info/dni/nsa-ant-catalog/usb/index.html which is the first hit for a web search.

            There is a wikipedia page on them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_ANT_catalog which says they were leaked in 2013 by Der Speigel.

            I can see that NDA being applied to “I took a peek at my bosses desk” or “I went on the dark web and paid 10 bitcoins for this information”. I can not see that being applied to “I did a web search and found it on wikipedia.”

            And in any case, I don’t know if those are authentic or made up by a teenager hoping to get money from Der Speigel.

            1. 5

              Out of curiosity… why?

              1. 12

                IANAL etc etc… My understanding is something along the lines of… those holding US clearances sign an NDA to agree not to access classified documents for which they are not authorized nor need to access. I understand these people may want to avoid marked classified documents leaked online, for example because they may not have the “need to know”.

                I’m not here to dictate or judge, just to note for those who care about this material.

                1. 4

                  Correct! It’s generally the same reason why prominent emulator developers won’t look at or access leaked documents/source code. It’s a whole can of beans that nobody should ever put themselves near.

              2. 1

                Good point, it would be polite to put up a “spoiler warning” if you’re going to do this. And there are plenty of publicly available examples they could have used to make the same point. Ah well.

              1. 16

                Today I learned that which isn’t in POSIX. A quick glance at shell history shows I’ve used it 400 odd times in the last 5 years just on my primary desktop machine, nevermind how many places I probably still have it in some random script…

                1. 10

                  That’s the power of a good name. I’ve seen “command -v” a few times, but as long as “which” is installed, I’ll be using the name that actually makes sense in the context…

                  1. 6
                    $ which which
                    alias which='command -v'
                    

                    ;-)

                1. 1

                  Or you could switch to firefox ESR. If you do this, you’ll have to start FF the first time with --allow-downgrade, and maybe futz around with ~/.mozilla/firefox-esr/profiles.ini. Consider enabling the telemetry so that they can tell.

                  1. 1

                    What is it?

                    1. 2

                      ESR versions of Firefox are the Enterprise/Extended Support Release versions. They get (some) security updates but no new features. A maintained version of an older Firefox, that updates only yearly or so. Eventually it will also switch to a Proton version of Firefox. Just later.

                      Switching to ESR is essentially downgrading which comes with the profile data hazards that you typically get when downgrading a software but not it’s configuration. Make a backup before you try it.

                      1. 2

                        Would it also be an idea to use Seamonkey? Or does that lack behind severely?

                        1. 2

                          It had a release 2 months ago - it lags significantly behind Firefox development, but is still quite useable if you don’t need modern features. Getting add-ons to work can be a faff though.

                          1. 1

                            This is the first time I hear of SeaMonkey in years. Afaiu it’s an independent community project. I honestly don’t know more.

                    1. 8

                      Well, this is not really a “UI layer”, as I haven’t been able to find any interface elements predating Windows 95 (although I have a feeling that there certainly are).

                      odbcad32 still uses the Windows 3.1 file selector because of those two checkboxes on the right hand side.

                      1. 7

                        It’s your code. If it crashes, you fix it. We like this idea because it pushes developers to deliver higher-quality code. The dread of taking those middle-of-the-night phone calls provides a little extra incentive to take another pass through your work before you ship.

                        Is that… even legal?

                        1. 14

                          Found the European!

                          TL;DR: This is very likely illegal in the EU, you can’t do that to employees. Part of our SRE team is in Sweden, and we had to to a lot of threading the needle to meet Swedish laws about right to rest when we set up on-call rotas. I would assume “you are always on call” would be illegal in most non-US countries.

                          1. 2

                            Thanks, I thought so.

                          2. 5

                            Yes, there is no law to absolve workers of responsibility.

                            1. 3

                              Why would it be illegal?

                              1. 8

                                you can’t have all your employees on call all the time

                                1. 14

                                  I parsed this as I’ve seen it: each team has its own on-call rotation.

                              2. 1

                                I don’t think this literally means they have a pager system that runs git blame on stack traces and pages the poor soul that touched it last (or even worse, just pages an entire team simultaneously).

                                I took this to be an allusion to some permutation of full service ownership — as in, the engineering team responsible for building a service also maintains on an on-call rotation to take responsibility for that service in production. This is in contrast to the older pattern of “engineers chuck code over the wall into production and go home, while the SRE/ops folks deal with whatever hell rains down at 3AM”. I don’t see why this would be illegal, unless pages were happening so often that folks couldn’t sleep / live a life.

                              1. 2

                                Weird to put this much work into a programming language but not bother to register a domain for it.

                                1. 10

                                  Looking a little deeper:

                                  Every type in Teal accepts nil as a valid value, even if, like in Lua, attempting to use it with some operations would cause a runtime error, so be aware!

                                  This is a bit disappointing for me to read since nils are by far the most common type errors in Lua. I’m definitely open to the idea of putting a little more work into my coding by thinking in types, but the types need to pull their weight! A type system which can’t catch the most common type error feels like a missed opportunity.

                                  1. 3

                                    Fwiw the talk mentioned nil safety as a potential future direction.

                                    1. 2

                                      While still in semi-early development, Pallene is another alternative with some additional performance benefits.

                                      White Paper

                                      Repo

                                      1. 3

                                        Yeah, it looks really promising. IIRC Pallene is developed by the core Lua developers. Unfortunately the documentation in their repo does not have enough detail to determine whether their type system has the same nil problem as Teal’s.

                                        1. 1

                                          One of the things I notice when working in Lua is, I’m sure because of its relatively small developer community (as compared to say Java or Python or C/C++) I find a lot of places where the Lua ecosystem goes right up to the edge of the water and then just … stops.

                                          Like, as a for instance, try getting luarocks working on a non *NIX based system. It’s not easy :) I know it’s been done but - not easy.

                                          Again this is totally understandable because polish and depth require engineer hours to create and those don’t grow on trees.

                                          1. 2

                                            I find a lot of places where the Lua ecosystem goes right up to the edge of the water and then just … stops.

                                            My perspective on this is that Lua developers tend to have more restraint and recognize that sometimes if you can’t do something right, it’s better not to do it at all.

                                            1. 2

                                              I appreciate that. I definitely is nice to skip the super annoying “Here are 30 half baked almost implementations of $THING” phase.

                                              Like the fact that there used to be about 9000 Python distros for Windows and now there’s essentially 1 mainstream one.

                                      2. 1

                                        I didn’t like this either. I appreciate Go have the zero-value idea for basic types, but there is still the nil issue for interfaces and pointers.

                                        Back in my JavaScript days it was tedious always checking for null values before doing the real work.

                                        1. 1

                                          Unrelated to this, but you may be pleased to know that you can use ?. to safely access values that may not exist in JS. e.g. const name = some?.nested?.obj?.name;

                                        2. 1

                                          Totally agree. This makes me think of all the gyrations Swift goes through to ensure that you’re never using or getting a potentially Nil value unless you really REALLY need it and mean for that to be possible in this circumstance.

                                        3. 2

                                          there is a domain, but not a website: http://teal-language.org

                                        1. 2

                                          Hi, creator here, thanks for submitting and please share any feedback or thoughts you might have!

                                          1. 21

                                            Without more context it’s difficult at a glance to know how to interpret “Harmful”.

                                            It looks like it’s saying “Mozilla’s implementation of the Serial API is harmful” but it sounds like what it’s actually saying is “Mozilla considers the Serial API to be harmful” which is very different!

                                            1. 1

                                              Hmm, yeah, good point. The wording is taken from their own site which is linked to when one clicks on the status.

                                              Suggestion on how it could be improved?

                                              1. 8

                                                Personally I have no idea what this website is about. Perhaps add a few lines on top that explain what it is?

                                                1. 1

                                                  Further down I’ve written:

                                                  observations of APIs with controversy around them and where hard facts has often been hard to find

                                                  Maybe replacing/extending the current “Background” in the top with something similar? Maybe like this:

                                                  Gathering of Web API specifications that has caused controversy among browser vendors, giving them relevant context

                                                  1. 3

                                                    I think you need even more context than that. What is Web API? Why is it controversial? The nice thing about the FAQ format is that you can spend the first 1–3 items answering questions like these and anyone who already has this context can just skip over them.

                                                    A design note—the text in the FAQ expands to fill the full width of the screen (or at least the 1,280 pixels of my browser window), and there is also no margin between the text and the edge of the screen. Both of these things make the text harder to read. You might consider limiting the width of the text to 800 px or 40 em (very approximate numbers) and, on smaller screens, adding at least 10 px of whitespace on either side.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      Suggestion on wording and such is much appreciated, this is just something I threw together quickly in an afternoon to try and gather references in these topics :)

                                                2. 3

                                                  Perhaps you’d consider changing the colour scheme? To me, green = GOOD and red = BAD, which makes it hard to understand what’s actually going on at first glance.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    In what way? Green = positive about the state of the spec, Red = negative about the state of the spec, isn’t that the correct way?

                                                    1. 4

                                                      I think the problem is that it’s not immediately obvious that this ‘judgement’ of good vs bad is about the spec. At first glance this just looks like chrome has everything green and is thus good, while firefox/safari have everything red and are thus bad.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Yeah, good feedback, will try to find time to improve it asap

                                                  2. 2

                                                    “Harmful to Users” or “Deemed Harmful to Users” perhaps? The key point that needs communicating is that Mozilla has determined that implementing the spec would be harmful to its own users, e.g. someone might use the serial api to modify their insulin delivery device.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      Intentionally omitted.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Well, Mozilla’s own description of their “Harmful” label is “Mozilla considers this specification to be harmful in its current state.”

                                                        That the focus is on the spec, not the implementation should get clarified

                                                        1. 5

                                                          “Harmful” doesn’t mean anything on its own, you have to tell a person what is being harmed.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            Totally, but that’s better explained by the ones considering it to be harmful than for me to try and summarize and maybe misinterpret

                                                            1. 1

                                                              By using the single word “Harmful” I’d argue that you have summarized. It’s just that that summary is ambiguous and prone to misinterpretation, as others in this thread have pointed out.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                How would you summarize it better? I would love to do it better

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  Maybe “Mozilla considers it harmful” or “No plans to implement”? I know these are more wordy than what you’ve got now, but I can’t think of a shorter bit of text that still conveys the right meaning.

                                                      2. 2

                                                        Added an issue for it to ensure it doesn’t get lost: https://github.com/voxpelli/webapicontroversy.com/issues/1

                                                        1. 1

                                                          Perhaps “Rejected” instead of “Harmful”?

                                                          Though Mozilla themselves refer to it as “harmful”.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            They often haven’t rejected the specs though, rather they have found that they in their current state would be harmful to the web.

                                                            Remember: All of these specs are drafts and still under discussion, even though Chrome has decided to ship them

                                                            1. 1

                                                              Yea, I get that, I just don’t feel that “HARMFUL” is representative of what’s going on.

                                                              For example, the Safari side of things talks about anti-fingerprinting challenges, which is fair.

                                                              I don’t get the sense that the Chrome side is actively trying to enact more ways to fingerprint, but rather they’re trying to build a browser environment that competes with OS functionality, which I think is also fair (ideology aside). I’m not sure how Safari feels about this, given that they’re a purveyor of iOS and macOS and probably don’t love the idea of browsers competing.

                                                              Meanwhile I’m not sure what Mozilla’s agenda is. They’re no longer providing Firefox OS, but also it’s not clear that Firefox is interested in pushing browser functionality forward, while also experimenting with ads/sponsored content by default.

                                                              My personal bias, as someone who uses Linux and benefits greatly from cross-platform applications like browser apps, is that I like the idea of these additional WebAPIs and it doesn’t sound intractable to make them robust against fingerprinting. The cost of not advertising the functionality by default and even requiring the user to manually enable them seems more than worth it.

                                                              My wish for something like the Web API Controversy page (which I appreciate exists as it’s a handy dashboard to keep track of!) is that it didn’t make the premise of the proposals seem nefarious and intractable. :)

                                                      3. 2

                                                        I think it would be nice to link to discussions directly in the details, e.g. https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/336

                                                        1. 2

                                                          I prefer to link to the most official kind of reference and have it refer to the discussions they feel are relevant, feels like that has a better chance of being up to date and staying as objective as possible

                                                      1. 3

                                                        Am I missing something or is there no way to ‘focus in’ on one particular article? I love the concept, but having all these other bright pixels dancing around in front of my eyes makes it quite hard to read a particular article comfortably.

                                                        1. 1

                                                          I agree. There’s a bug with reflow, but also just sort of hard to read on desktop.

                                                          On mobile you can double tap and article to zoom in/out.

                                                          Anyone know how to do something similar on desktop?

                                                        1. 1

                                                          This is kind of the mindset that people in crypto are so vocally opposed to.

                                                          “I did Cryptopals and I follow people on crypto twitter so I thought I could reverse this thing…”

                                                          Ugh. Interesting things in the article, but yeah. Concerning mindset.

                                                          1. 28

                                                            What? What’s concerning about someone having a go at reversing something? Who is so opposed to people trying out new skills?

                                                            1. 11

                                                              To this point, I have always heard the advice around crypto as “don’t roll your own crypto systems until you have significant experience breaking others” - so I’m not sure at all why this should be a concerning mindset.

                                                            2. 10

                                                              Er, why? Actually I think this person is fantastic.

                                                              • Knows they’re in over their head a bit
                                                              • Isn’t intimidated by a weird complicated system
                                                              • Takes a methodical approach to pulling it apart, showing a grasp of principles
                                                              • Sticks to it and succeeds
                                                              • Knows that success in reversing crypto doesn’t mean you should roll your own
                                                              • Ultimately decides to do something smarter
                                                              • But learns a bunch along the way

                                                              Beats 99% of the folks I see on the interweb.

                                                              1. 8

                                                                The paragraph is just telling you what credentials they have. It’s right before the sentence “I’ve had a little exposure to both cryptography and Javascript, but I’m definitely not a wizard at any of this stuff” and it’s right before they say (non-quote) “buuuuuut it wasn’t actually that hard”. The fact that it’s not a degree in cryptography is the point of that whole paragraph.

                                                                1. 6

                                                                  There’s nothing wrong with being curious. They even decide at the very end that continuing would be foolish, and they decided to go with SSH.

                                                                  1. 3

                                                                    … and this is why mere programmers have the overwhelming impression that cryptography is “not for them”

                                                                  1. 2

                                                                    I still find it absolutely crazy that pip installs things to /usr without any warning if you innocently run it as root. Does any other language package manager do this? I’m used to cpan installing everything in /usr/local, which is far more sensible, and reversible. Is there a good reason for installing to /usr that I’m missing?

                                                                    1. 9

                                                                      pip doesn’t install to /usr, it installs to “the place Python is installed”. Which if you’re using Ubuntu’s Python is /usr. If you’re using the Python in the official Docker images, it’ll be /usr/local. If you’re using the Python from a virtualenv isolated environment, it’ll be the directory the virtualenv is in.

                                                                      People have had discussions about disallowing pip usage in distro-installed Python, but it’s more in the realm of vague thoughts than anyone writing code to prevent it.

                                                                      1. 3

                                                                        Interesting, thanks. I still think this is unusual behaviour though, given most python installations are found in /usr. I almost always install into a virtualenv, but on a few occasions I have forgotten to enable it and accidentally filled up my distribution’s /usr with random python packages

                                                                    1. 4

                                                                      It seems a bit unfair to post this here after Drew was banned from this forum in my opinion.

                                                                      1. 4

                                                                        Why? Their blog posts are shared often enough here as it is, and authors rarely get right-of-reply here anyway.

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          The blog posts aren’t going to be shared here anymore (the domain was banned too). I generally don’t think it would be appropriate to have a story on this site whose primary intent is to criticize someone who can’t respond.

                                                                          The point about authors not getting a right to reply is a fair one, but I’d counter that someone would generally extend an invitation to someone being criticized who wanted a chance to respond.

                                                                        2. 4

                                                                          Drew was banned? What happened?

                                                                          1. 6

                                                                            29 hours ago by pushcx: Please go be loudly disappointed in the entire world (and promote sourcehut) somewhere else.

                                                                            I didn’t know this either! I’m going to miss his commentary on a lot of topics (and not miss his commentary on others). @pushcx would you care to elaborate on this? He seemed to have a pretty positive score on a lot of his comments, even though I didn’t personally agree with many of his opinions. Quickly ctrl-f’ing his comment page, I can only see one comment with a score of 0.

                                                                            1. 7

                                                                              When someone’s account is deleted (by themself or banning), their negative-score comments are deleted. There were a lot with @drewdevault over a long time.

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                Is there a particular reason his domain was banned? There’s plenty of cranky open source folks there with questionable use of language in their rants, and I don’t think he was any worse than, say, ESR.

                                                                                1. 7

                                                                                  The reason for the domain ban is in the mod log:

                                                                                  Reason: I’m tired of merging hot takes, or cleaning up after the results of his trolling and sourcehut promotion.

                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                    Ouch. I had read the mod log earlier and was hoping for some clarification, but okay then.

                                                                        1. 5

                                                                          The author has suggested that this is not to be taken seriously

                                                                          (it’s an excellent parody, for what it’s worth, and raises some interesting questions)

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            The TempleOS guy was a crackpot, the Crystalline guy just sounds like a dick who doesn’t want to learn anything.

                                                                            1. 7

                                                                              I think it’s a bit mean to call him a ‘crackpot,’ he suffered from some mental disorders but this in no way diminishes his value or his intelligence.

                                                                              My understanding of ‘crackpot’ in this context is that it refers to people designing ridiculous things and then expecting people to trust them.

                                                                              1. 15

                                                                                I don’t think Davis ever made claims that templeOS was new technology or that it was better than everything else, although it’s possible. In his more lucid moments I remember him talking about how it’s an hobbyist OS that is not suited for everyday use. A crackpot usually will go around emailing academics and companies begging for recognition, usually out of some delusional self-importance.

                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                  Yes, we agree :)

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    Does that definition make Ted Nelson a crackpot?

                                                                                    1. 5

                                                                                      Hmm, maybe. Xanadu was vaporware for a very long time (and I think is still closed source) and makes wild claims about being “better than the world wide web”. Jack Parsons was also probably a bit of a crackpot, but he also furthered rocketry, so I don’t know.

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        I think Ted had a set of ideas that were more separate from each other than he thought. Some of those ideas were extracted from his conception of Xanadu and have been extremely and indisputably influential. And he deserves recognition for those ideas and promoting them.

                                                                                        Continuing to insist that they were not separable, or to insist that his own implementation of Xanadu is better than the web we have today is more obviously crackpot, in my opinion.

                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                          It is also entirely possible to be productive, skilled, and respected in one area, and simultaneously be a crackpot in others.

                                                                                          /me glances at Gwyneth Paltrow

                                                                                    2. 2

                                                                                      “Crackpot” isn’t a value judgement on his worth as a person, because I’m in no position to make such a judgement. But if the word doesn’t apply to him, it doesn’t apply to anybody. Crackpottery IMO is in one’s actions, not in their causes.

                                                                                    3. 2

                                                                                      Mr. Davis wasn’t a crackpot; God told him to build a Commodore x86-64, and he did.

                                                                                    1. 13

                                                                                      The larger problem, though, is that it’s not at all clear that Firefox will remain a viable alternative to Chrome. Its market share has been falling for years, and not everybody is pleased with the directions that the Mozilla Foundation has taken. The creators of web sites have responded by not caring about Firefox; having to retry broken web sites in Chrome is a ritual that many Firefox users have had to get used to. It’s not surprising that users give up and just run Chrome from the outset.

                                                                                      This is the real problem here, in my opinion - even if there are other freely-licensed browsers which use Blink, the trend towards obsolescence for Blink’s only competitor is a fairly grim sight to behold. I actually use Firefox because I prefer it to Chrome & derivatives, but at this point I have a secondary Chromium window open most of the time anyway, not least because Microsoft Teams requires it now.

                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                        I have a secondary Chromium window open most of the time anyway, not least because Microsoft Teams requires it now

                                                                                        I had to resolve to the exact same thing. All virtual meetings Google Meet, Microsoft Teams, Slack calls do not support Firefox and explicitly tell you to switch away…

                                                                                        1. 19

                                                                                          Jitsi, BigBlueButton, Zoom and Discord do support Firefox and have good user experience fwiw, I would particularly recommend the first two as they are freely-licensed. Took me a while to find a decent platform for casual videoconferencing at the start of the pandemic.

                                                                                          Obviously, that only works if you can choose the platform, but it’s worth a try anyway.

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            I’m using Google Meet everyday with Firefox, the experience is 99% great and I haven’t been told to switch away. Only feature missing that I know of is changing the background.

                                                                                          2. 3

                                                                                            I came to Firefox, way back in the day (like, 2007-ish), because of the dev tools. We actually ported our IE-only application over to support Firefox solely to get access to those dev tools - none of our customers used Firefox, or were asking for it.

                                                                                            These days the Chrome dev tools are really good, they’re an entire complex application hidden inside another one - most users will never see it, but there’s a lot of development time put into Chrome’s tools. Today all the developers on my team use Chrome, though there’s no mandate to do that, and in practice every other browser is a second-class citizen.

                                                                                            I don’t know what they’d have to do, but if Firefox could make the development experience amazing, then maybe we’d see support pick up, too?

                                                                                            (I assume it’s not amazing today when compared to Chrome, because I’ve never heard anyone mentioning that)

                                                                                            1. 7

                                                                                              Firefox’s devtools have really caught back up again in recent years. The JS debugging stuff was still better in Chrome last time I had to use it, but I’ve found Firefox far better for everything else, especially styling. It probably depends what parts of the tools you need most often, so I’d definitely recommend giving them a try again if you don’t spend all your time in the debugger.

                                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                                I use firefox for personal browsing, chrome for webdev.

                                                                                                The firefox devtools aren’t bad, but they are definitely not as good as the chrome ones. I’d say they’ve been consistently a year or so behind chrome.

                                                                                                That said, support for video/audio in firefox is fickle (eg different feature release dates for different OSes - you can’t just say “supports firefox”, you end up having to say “supports firefox on some versions of windows” - at which point it’s easy to write off entirely)

                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                  I honestly disagree, especially for CSS firefox has superior dev tools.

                                                                                                2. 1

                                                                                                  I still use firefox because it has superior dev tools in my opinion, especially for CSS.

                                                                                                  These days the Chrome dev tools are really good, they’re an entire complex application hidden inside another one - most users will never see it, but there’s a lot of development time put into Chrome’s tools.

                                                                                                  This is also true of firefox.

                                                                                              1. 6

                                                                                                While its certainly not usable for daily to day activities, I still think NetSurf is a cool browser. It would probably end up in the mid tier, as it doesn’t have any tracking but it also doesn’t have any privacy protecting features.

                                                                                                1. 5

                                                                                                  The same author did indeed post a review of NetSurf

                                                                                                  Upon launch Netsurf makes a request to get the default search engine’s icon, that default search engine is Google. […] Other than that, there are no unsolicited requests.

                                                                                                1. 28

                                                                                                  Any of y’all want me to throw my hat in the ring?

                                                                                                  Another time. :)

                                                                                                  Okay fisch. I’ll try. If enough folks are interested I’ll shoot an app in.

                                                                                                  1. 41

                                                                                                    friendlysock is pretty much the only user who I have mentally flagged as consistently antagonistic and obnoxious, generally to the detriment of friendly and civil discussion. Other users may have particular topics which they feel sufficiently strongly about that they occasionally get a little antagonistic responding to criticism. With friendlysock, I see unnecessarily inflammatory comments often enough that I now mentally think, “ugh, I won’t bother reading this comment chain, it looks like another friendlysock spat”. If you can’t moderate your own comments, I don’t think you’d be good at moderating other peoples.

                                                                                                    So if you really want our opinions, no, I do not want you to throw your hat into the ring.

                                                                                                    1. 25

                                                                                                      Strong disagree. friendlysock consistently engages in civil and friendly discussion, even when finding himself on the other side of an argument with someone whose political convictions make them feel they shouldn’t even attempt to be civil and friendly. I’ve never seen him make a comment I think could fairly be called unnecessarily inflammatory (and I say this as someone who has disagreed with him in the past). I generally enjoy seeing his posts and think he’s a good contributor to the site.

                                                                                                      1. 32

                                                                                                        You’re painting a picture where angersock is the civil one who just so happens to be constantly surrounded by people mad at him.

                                                                                                        That’s wrong: angersock frequently accuses others or entire communities of bad faith and assumes a position of authority he doesn’t have when saying content doesn’t belong here (do I even need to link that one?).

                                                                                                        I’ve rarely seen anybody argue with angersock twice. That alone should be pretty damning: The only constant in arguments involving angersock is he himself.

                                                                                                        One can be inflammatory, incite flamewars and toxic communication while saving face by “remaining civil”. I’m not sure how much of it was intended in /u/Thra11’s post, but to me the point is that angersock remains civil, but brings incivility.

                                                                                                        That is not to say that he doesn’t try his best, and I don’t think he does any of this on purpose (though I am really not sure). But I really don’t think he is cut out for this job, and given the comment ratio on his top-post vs the rest of the thread, I think he would be quite a controversial mod to say the least.

                                                                                                        1. 14

                                                                                                          It’s also missing the point: One can be inflammatory, incite flamewars and toxic communication while saving face by “remaining civil”.

                                                                                                          That form of trolling is called Sea-lioning. http://wondermark.com/1k62/

                                                                                                          1. 13

                                                                                                            I strongly disagree that how friendlysock has been showing up here can be seen as a form of sealioning.

                                                                                                            1. 8

                                                                                                              It still blows my mind that not only do some people think the woman rather than the sea-lion was the sympathetic character in that comic, but that there are enough such people for “sea-lioning” to have become a meme.

                                                                                                              1. 8

                                                                                                                I suspect it’s because many people use public social media for private conversations with their friends (as they would speak while walking about town). A stranger injecting themselves into the conversation to demand your time and attention (regardless of how righteous they are) is unwanted and weird.

                                                                                                                1. 5

                                                                                                                  It’s pretty fitting, I think. Most people who cry “sea lioning” are just upset that someone responded to their public statements.

                                                                                                                  1. 5

                                                                                                                    I was puzzled by that as well. There were enough of us that the author wrote a three paragraph clarification on the errata page. It’s possibly worth reading the explanation there. I’d summarize it as “the sea lion is a stand-in for people who behave a certain way and the woman’s objection is based on that behavior”.

                                                                                                                  2. 6

                                                                                                                    I only have this comic as reference for as to what sealioning means, but the situation I see with angersock is not one where he actively seeks out people to engage in stupid arguments with. Maybe the term has evolved beyond that specific example, but then, without a new real definition, it has lost its meaning.

                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                      The term has not lost its meaning, it has always been used to refer to people who make unwelcomed responses to publicly made statements.

                                                                                                                  3. 9

                                                                                                                    My own interactions with ‘sock have actually been pretty good, even in cases where we disagreed (as in this thread), and I don’t off-hand recall seeing and recent(ish) comments where I was “sjeez ’sock, relax mate”.

                                                                                                                    But I also skip most Rust stories, as I don’t have a lot of interest in Rust (not at the moment anyway), and that link is indeed very much a “sjeez ’sock, relax mate” type of conversation.

                                                                                                                    Point being: I guess people have a limited/biased view of ’sock (or any other members, for that matter) based on which stories they read and comment on. I certainly do, because I never would have seen that comment if you had not linked it here.

                                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                                      do I even need to link that one?

                                                                                                                      Would be helpful for people like me who aren’t as deep in the day-to-day of lobste.rs.

                                                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                                                        It appears lobste.rs has some sort of retention on the index of comments per user, but here’s the most recent examples (not the best ones):

                                                                                                                        All of those assume a place of authority and tell others how to use the site.

                                                                                                                    2. 6

                                                                                                                      In all fairness, this was not always the case (see also why I’m friendlysock instead of angersock), and even as recently as that Rust thread a few days ago I can still be more inflammatory than is helpful (less charitably: I can be a shithead). I’m no saint.

                                                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                                                        and yet, gestures frantically below

                                                                                                                      2. 6

                                                                                                                        I would have to concur with this

                                                                                                                      3. 34

                                                                                                                        I personally would prefer not to have a moderator who thinks having Nazis participating is a fine idea (https://lobste.rs/s/nulfct/problem_with_code_conduct#c_dwa6s5). “You could exclude neither [Nazis nor the target of Nazis], and let them sort it out themselves elsewhere. Indeed, seeing each other in a context that doesn’t constantly reinforce their ideology might serve to build bridges and mellow both sides.”

                                                                                                                        Seeing as my grandmother was almost murdered by Nazis the “mellowing both sides” bit did not go over well with me.

                                                                                                                        1. 26

                                                                                                                          It’s taken me quite some time to form a response.

                                                                                                                          Here in Bloomington, IN, last year and the year prior, we had to deal with a real Nazi problem in our city. It was BAD. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/18/us/indiana-farmers-market-white-supremacy.html

                                                                                                                          We have had a city govt run farmers market near the city square. It was on the largest walking/biking/running trail the city has.. It really was an amazing market.

                                                                                                                          Then, the Unicorn Riot discord hack happened. Normally, this would oust Nazies and similar ideology. Except this time, it ousted a lady by the name of Sarah Dye, a farmowner and a stall vendor at the farmers market. It only outed the first name in the general vicinity and owned a farm - I was the one who found her account on Youtube by the name of Volkmom, and got her banned from the other 2 farmers market boards she was on. I forwarded the videos to their boards. They compared her voice to her damning videos.

                                                                                                                          However, Bloomington IN doubled down, claiming 1st amendment concerns. Peaceful protests to Dye and the city were done… And the cops arrested the peaceful protesters, up to and including the president of low barrier homeless shelters - dressed as a purple unicorn ( https://www.thedailybeast.com/unicorns-arrested-at-protest-of-white-supremacy-at-bloomington-indianas-farmers-market ).

                                                                                                                          And since Dye was being defended by the city, we had other undesirables show up. Other neonazies did. So did the 3 percent’ers. But when the 3%ers showed up, they were armed to the teeth, with AR15’s strapped to them, handguns (plural), zipties, and more. There was no question - they were not peaceful. They wanted to make a show of force that they were present to support their kind. Having them all show up shat on the very idea of the farmer’s market of inclusivity and coming together over shared food.

                                                                                                                          We (public) finally solved this by deprecating the city run market, and a new market was made by a non-profit org. All the vendors showed up here, with exception of Sarah Dye and her stall. And unlike the city market, visible weaponry wasn’t allowed. And being in Indiana, people will pack heat; but it can at least be diminished.

                                                                                                                          When nobody knew she was a Nazi and she didn’t do anything suspicious publicly, it was uneventful and peaceful. People just bought their groceries and all was good. The moment it was known, all the dregs, white nationalists, neonazies, kkk, and similar moved in to support “their kind”. We all literally had to abandon and regroup to get them to stop.

                                                                                                                          If you don’t strongly deal with white nationalist groups, they’ll eat you out of house and home, run everyone off, and leave you with a shell of a community. I’ve seen it happen locally how it progresses in real life… and damned if I’ll let it happen to communities I’m currently a moderator of.

                                                                                                                          1. 21

                                                                                                                            Forgive me for being dense, but my reading of this is that everything was quiet and peaceful until you went out of your way to dox a Nazi and get her kicked out, and then people decided to protest a lawful application of the 1st Amendment, and then counter-protests happened, and a bunch of ugliness occurred, and then after all this you got the original market back less one Nazi.

                                                                                                                            If this is an accurate reading (and it may not be!), how could one not conclude that everything was fine until you got a bee in your bonnet about somebody being a Nazi in their free time? How is everything that followed not your fault? That being the case…how is all of the following ugliness not the result of the efforts to purge a secret Nazi?

                                                                                                                            My desire to follow rules of topicality and civility is very much due to a desire to avoid that sort of protest-counterprotest stuff that harms communities more than it helps.

                                                                                                                            1. 23

                                                                                                                              how could one not conclude that everything was fine until you got a bee in your bonnet about somebody being a Nazi in their free time? How is everything that followed not your fault?

                                                                                                                              Who escalated to violence? The white nationalists did. Arguing that the exposers of secret Nazis are at fault is the argument employed by domestic abusers. “Woman, why do you make me beat you? Why do you do this to me?”

                                                                                                                              I know you’re arguing in good faith. But please do not try to justify violence from this crowd. They proved that they weren’t standing on moral high ground when they showed up with firearms and zipties.

                                                                                                                              The violent response from white nationalists to nonviolent protests should prove just how much of a charade their pearl-clutching about “muh free speech” really is.

                                                                                                                              1. 13

                                                                                                                                Forgive me for being dense, but my reading of this is that everything was quiet and peaceful until you went out of your way to dox a Nazi and get her kicked out, and then people decided to protest a lawful application of the 1st Amendment, and then counter-protests happened, and a bunch of ugliness occurred, and then after all this you got the original market back less on Nazi.

                                                                                                                                More specifically, there was already an anti-nazi campaign locally going against her with what I considered shaky proof. Many of us were very hesitant to engage in protests in person or online, without solid proof. I used my OSINT skills and was able to positively identify that it was her. Had it not been, I would have also said so. I’m not going to engage in a protest against an individual unless I’m damned sure I can prove it… And I proved it beyond a reasonable doubt.

                                                                                                                                Speaking to “and then people decided to protest a lawful application of the 1st Amendment, and then counter-protests happened”…

                                                                                                                                The problem was that the city was supporting the nazi speech AND show of force, while arresting peaceful (non-weapon-possessing) protestors. If the city had applied equal force to both sides, there would have been less of an issue with respect to 1FA.

                                                                                                                                If this is an accurate reading (and it may not be!), how could one not conclude that everything was fine until you got a bee in your bonnet about somebody being a Nazi in their free time? How is everything that followed not your fault? That being the case…how is all of the following ugliness not the result of the efforts to purge a secret Nazi?

                                                                                                                                You’re extrapolating and assuming when you don’t have the information.

                                                                                                                                My desire to follow rules of topicality and civility is very much due to a desire to avoid that sort of protest-counterprotest stuff that harms communities more than it helps.

                                                                                                                                This sort of civility is similar to Sea-lioning ( http://wondermark.com/1k62/ ).

                                                                                                                                Simply put, there is no civility when discussing people who want to murder people (and have done so) who differ only in race, skin color, or sexuality.

                                                                                                                                1. 21

                                                                                                                                  Over and over and over again the same “both sides are at fault” message, Nazis and their victims. You simply cannot get yourself to say “let’s leave Nazis out”, huh.

                                                                                                                                  1. 13

                                                                                                                                    A few questions to make sure I understand your arguments:

                                                                                                                                    • Assuming Lobste.rs vows to leave the Nazi out, who is going to decide which user is a Nazi? What is the definition of a Nazi?
                                                                                                                                    • Since we’re bound to leave the Nazi out, how can we ensure that there won’t be a “leave the Y out”, where “Y” can be muslim from Saudi Arabia, Palantir developers (are they morally superior to Nazis?), Steven Pinker, Noam Chomsky and everyone else group X doesn’t like ?

                                                                                                                                    ps. This discussion is not new by any means. It is a hard discussion, Karl Popper wrote extensively about this exact issue.

                                                                                                                                    1. 8

                                                                                                                                      Thank you for your observation.

                                                                                                                                      For me, I can’t help but notice that even if we say “Okay let’s get rid of the Nazis”, we still have the question of who is a Nazi?

                                                                                                                                      Form a practical standpoint: half of my country (US) voted for Trump, for whatever reason. That makes them some flavor of Republican–or worse. It is not a stretch (and is pretty common in various circles) to see any affiliation with Republicans as basically being a Nazi.

                                                                                                                                      If half of Lobsters is from the US, this means that like a quarter of the users–based on back-of-the-envelope calculations–are Nazis and should be banned, for being Nazis.

                                                                                                                                      If we just ban based on civility and topicality, we get to sidestep this issue.

                                                                                                                                        1. 7

                                                                                                                                          Any of the comments that article references are clearly outside decorum and, if posted here, would warrant administrative action.

                                                                                                                                          1. 8

                                                                                                                                            Weev is a public figure. Weev was banned from gab. Weev could participate anonymously on lobsters. If weev wants to post here as weev, is that OK?

                                                                                                                                            1. 8

                                                                                                                                              Why wouldn’t it be, if he follows the rules and isn’t an asshole and contributes to on-topic discussion?

                                                                                                                                              It being weev, I imagine it would be less than an hour before he gets banned for saying stupid Nazi shit, but might as well give the fellow a chance.

                                                                                                                                              Our purpose here isn’t to punish people for actions in other communities; our purpose is to discuss technology.

                                                                                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                                                                                Weev is a public figure known for being a Nazi. For weev to be named as weev, it’s the same as https://lobste.rs/u/neonazi .

                                                                                                                                                Weev could go by a different name to participate in lobsters.

                                                                                                                                                1. 0

                                                                                                                                                  Pretty sure there are many internet users with that nickname - most probably are unaware of some rando from US. To be honest I never heard about that guy until today. If he would have an account here I would judge him by what he writes here without crosschecking him across other sites. Who does that?!

                                                                                                                                    2. 7

                                                                                                                                      I won’t say it because I don’t believe it.

                                                                                                                                      I would rather have a polite Nazi talking to me about technology than either a rude not-Nazi talking about technology or a polite not-Nazi talking about not-technology. As somebody mentioned above re: the Nazi variant of the Turing test…a sufficiently polite and topical Nazi is indistinguishable from a normal user, because they’re presumably not talking about Nazi shit and picking on Nazi victims.

                                                                                                                                      If they are, the rules of civility and topicality give a handy way–and a more uniform way–of dealing with them. Even better, it gives a way of dealing with them that doesn’t give them the recourse of saying “Well you’re just doing this because you hate Nazis”, or “You’re just doing this because you support SJWs”, etc. I can point at the rules and say “You were off-topic and being uncivil. I don’t need to believe anything about Nazis or your relationship with that ideology to get rid of you.”

                                                                                                                                      1. 22

                                                                                                                                        Apparently you definition of civility includes telling me and other Jews to “mellow out” about people wanting to murder us. No thanks.

                                                                                                                                        1. -9

                                                                                                                                          Do you want to murder them, given that you (by my reading here) believe they are a clear and present danger to you and yours?

                                                                                                                                          1. 17

                                                                                                                                            This is too far. There are diminishing returns now on this conversation and also both of you seem to have lost perspective that this post is about finding new moderators because pushcx might be under huge moderator load - you’re not helping. At the least, take this to a different venue or to personal chat to hash it out and bring back here any positive results.

                                                                                                                                            @itamarst You are talking about a subject which is understandably extremely sensitive and important to you. I think everyone can and would acknowledge the pain that you and your family must have gone through, and it is a failing of people in this conversation that that is not the first and most obvious point to be reiterated and repeated without fail. We all must acknowledge that terrible things have happened and that we want to take positive actions to prevent them happening again. That being said you are grossly not applying good faith in a situation where one person’s actions seem to have been offensive to you, and you are bringing a subject that is most definitely off topic for lobste.rs into this space. In relation to the former, you could have chosen a much more amicable way of bringing your point forward such as: Quoting friendlysock, explaining how you reacted to and felt when you read his comment and asking friendlysock to confirm if that was his intention and to clarify his meaning if it was. You definitely could have done that constructively inside the context which was friendlysock applying to be a moderator, so you could have phrased your question in a way relevant to this topic. No one would ever question your pain or your discomfort at seeing discussions of a group of people that brought great harm to your family and by extension pain to you; you do not have to not be angry, or not be in pain; but having the expectation that you can bring this up in this way in this space and the outcome be constructive is poor judgement: whether or not this was a motivation, you are not going to get personal resolution to political issues that cause you pain on lobste.rs.

                                                                                                                                            @friendlysock Whatever your position you are grossly failing to take a step back and acknowledge itamarst’s point where he is now, not where you think he should be or how you think his point relates to lobste.rs. If you keep doubling down on your position, itamarst has to double down on his. This does not seem like rocket science. Whether this is on topic or not, when someone has gone to the effort and made themselves vulnerable by presenting something they are angry or in pain about, particualrly if it’s such a HUGE subject as this with so much emotion attached, step 1 is acknowledge that and consider your position in relation to what they said. You have no idea how they feel and you can not begin to understand their position so if they are offering you this level of confrontation the most you can do is acknowledge and listen. You don’t have to take responsibility for having caused their pain - no one is calling you a nazi or accusing you of murdering people, but you do have to acknowledge that they felt a particular way after reading what you wrote, and if you want to, you can explore that, but with about 1000 times more sensitivity. Acknowledgement and reiteration of your fundamental positions as they relate to lobste.rs, or moderation on lobste.rs would perhaps be a way to frame your position, if you’re interested in doing that.

                                                                                                                                            1. 16

                                                                                                                                              “Good faith” only goes far when some spends so much effort explaining how important it is we include Nazis in our discussions. Especially when they want to be a mod.

                                                                                                                                              And really the whole point of the exercise is mod policy. As I’ve said before, in other discussions, you gotta pick a side. And the clearer friendlysock’s opinions, the clearer the choice pushcx has to make.

                                                                                                                                            2. 13

                                                                                                                                              Enough is enough. You are bullying itamarst with repeated emotional manipulation by way of a topic that has violently effected them, apparently so that you can get them to call for killings on a thread in which you nominated yourself to moderate the community in pursuit of civility. Are you done trolling yet?

                                                                                                                                              1. 6

                                                                                                                                                Do you want to murder them

                                                                                                                                                Come on, this is too much.

                                                                                                                                                1. 6

                                                                                                                                                  No, of course not.

                                                                                                                                      2. 32

                                                                                                                                        no offence, but I find that “mellowing both sides” is a very legit goal. seeing as I’ve spent most of my life in a warzone, this goes very well with me. I’m not jewish, but I’ve had multiple run-ins with Neo-Nazis due to the way I look and where I escaped the war to. I used to hang out in this bar that was split in half, one of it was extreme leftists, and the other were staunch Nazis, some not even Neo. we were all fucked, so we just drank together in a weird peace of sorts. one of the Neo-Nazis never liked the fact that I started hanging out there, and was constantly hostile, and due to past experiences I had to often stay alert and make sure to be ready for whatever may come, but the beer was cheap mind you and the weed was good.

                                                                                                                                        one of the Neo-Nazis in particular was this big guy who had it so clear in his eyes that he’d like to beat the shit out of me to prove his worth or whatever. I didn’t care as this was the least of my worries (at that time). one of the old men I used to hang out with was a programmer as well, so we’d get high and discuss all sorts of computer things. one day the convo came to Blender and 3D modelling, and all of a sudden this big guy who never wanted to exchange a word with me and rather punches came and started talking about Blender with love in his eyes instead of hate, after a couple of hours of that he threw the shittiest but unfortunately the most fitting line of all:

                                                                                                                                        “your people aren’t too bad after all.”

                                                                                                                                        we actually continued conversing after that and went through a couple of his traumas and why he ended up on the path he ended up on. I by no means expect everyone suffering from oppression to engage in such antics with their oppressors, but I’d rather the ones who can’t, let the one who can, do what they gotta do.

                                                                                                                                        at the very least, you can try to not monopolize suffering under your own school of thought, and within only your own context.

                                                                                                                                        this is probably my last comment here for a while, so feel free to PM if you wanna discuss this further. I am also very sad to hear about your grandma, it sucks to be almost murdered, it sucks to see people you love get murdered, and it sucks to see people you love commit murder, but that shit happens on all sides of aisle.

                                                                                                                                        dehumanize one, and you dehumanize all, I find.

                                                                                                                                        fucking hell, I need a beer.

                                                                                                                                        1. 27

                                                                                                                                          Thank you for sharing! I think that’s slightly missing the point, though:

                                                                                                                                          1. The issue was with “both sides”. Why do I need to “mellow” if someone wants to murder me?
                                                                                                                                          2. You are describing a truce backed by violence. And that might work for some, but the more common case is people not going into the bar at all, because they don’t feel safe.

                                                                                                                                          I’m sure many Nazis have reasons for how they ended up where they are (though in the US a lot of them aren’t suffering at all, they’re upper middle class or rich). Maybe hanging out with Nazis will make them change their mind. I doubt it, but it’s possible.

                                                                                                                                          But given the choice between making a safe environment for everyone, and letting some Nazis in in the vague hope they will learn something and lots of other people choosing not to participate, I’d rather choose the latter former.

                                                                                                                                        2. 10

                                                                                                                                          You know, I can sympathise with your viewpoint here, especially as a Muslim in the current global climate, but the problem I see is that this seems to be leading to such extreme echo chambers, that it makes people say things like what one user in the thread you linked said:

                                                                                                                                          Feminists believe that women are as human and as entitled to agency and dignity as men are; MRAs believe that women are inferior to men and should be enslaved.

                                                                                                                                          This is such an absurd statement to make without backing up and so patently false; the only way someone can believe this is by being fed a constant diet of lies people who really hate MRAs instead of just speaking to MRAs directly.

                                                                                                                                          Suddenly, we’re not just banning Nazis who want to kill you and me and our entire family trees, we’re banning practicing religious people who aren’t willing to rewrite their holy scripture or reinterpret it to suit people’s desires, we’re banning critics of said religious folks who believe baby penises should remain intact — hey, they’re MRAs, right?; whatever, they must be islamophobes or antisemites either way — we’re banning critics of affirmative action, we’re banning all manner of people with valid and not so valid positions or arguments.

                                                                                                                                          We don’t discriminate on truth, we discriminate on whether it’s comfortable or not to a select group of people. People who can’t discriminate between a belief like, “men and women have roughly equal average IQ, but the distribution is wider for men, so the ratio of men to women at Google is roughly what we’d expect if Google were selecting for such and such IQ” — responding with such inanity as “do the women at Google not belong there, then?” — and a belief like, “women are inferior to men and so should be enslaved to them”.

                                                                                                                                          1. 20

                                                                                                                                            I think that if I were on a rocketry forum I’d be interested in hearing what Wernher von Braun had to say (not merely a Nazi, but an officer in the SS). If I were on a forum about filesystems, I’d be happy to talk to Hans Reiser. If I were given the opportunity, I think that Konrad Zuse (not a Nazi, but certainly a collaborator) would have interesting things to say about electromechanical computer design.

                                                                                                                                            I’d be more than happy to throw any of them out if they start going into politics or murder, but if they have useful expertise and follow the rules of decorum, they should have a place.

                                                                                                                                            1. 16

                                                                                                                                              Let me put it like this: if Hans Reiser would join a forum where Nina Reiser’s brother (or sister, close friend, etc.) would also participate, would you think it’s reasonable if they would object to this?

                                                                                                                                              It’s not hard to see how this would also extend to neo-Nazis (as in, literal neo-Nazis, who looked at the Holocaust and thought that all of that was just a spiffing good idea); would you enjoy interacting with someone who literally wants to kill you and everyone like you and worships an attempt to do exactly that? Are many people not a victim of these people’s actions just as much as Nina’s Reiser’s brother is? Would you happily discus webdesign best practices with the person running StormFront or some other neo-Nazi website?

                                                                                                                                              I’m not so sure if “it’s limited to just technical conversation” is really all that important, never mind that this is too limited of a view of Lobsters IMHO, as it’s a community centred around technical topics.

                                                                                                                                              For all we know Reiser or the StormFront maintainer are already participating on Lobsters anonymously. We can’t really prevent that because the only alternative would be to actively vet members. But if you know you’re talking to the StormFront webmaster then … yeah, I’d rather not.

                                                                                                                                              I’m not suggesting that we implement some sort of wrongthink policy or anything of the sort; you put forth the extreme scenarios so I’m replying to those, and in more realistic scenarios things tend to be some shade of grey. If someone on Twitter said “I don’t like people of religion/ethnicity/identity X” then that would probably be okay; as in, I won’t like them more for it, but I see no reason to ban them here for just that. But I do think all of this is a bit more complicated than you put forth.

                                                                                                                                              1. 19

                                                                                                                                                Would you happily discus webdesign best practices with the person running StormFront or some other neo-Nazi website?

                                                                                                                                                Let’s apply a variant of the Turing Test to this: if people from the interactions alone cannot tell whether they are made by a regular person or a Nazi, then the poster/commenter can be regarded as worthwhile talking to as any other normal person.

                                                                                                                                                1. 5

                                                                                                                                                  Yes. Nobodies forced to use real names on lobsters. If someone posts anonymously, respect it. Don’t dox.

                                                                                                                                                  It’s not the same if he/she uses their neo-Nazi name. Lobsters has no moral obligation to be known as the place where neo-Nazis hang out.

                                                                                                                                                  1. 10

                                                                                                                                                    Yeah I think there’s a bit of a straw man being thrown around in some of these discussions about being randomly chosen as the target of doxxing. It’s pretty easy to be anonymous on this website.

                                                                                                                                                    To even be perceived as a member of a hate group on a site like this would require affirmative signaling to one’s peers that they hold hateful views towards other members of the community for their birth-given human characteristics, which seems like a good enough reason to remove such a user in the first place.

                                                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                                                      Yes. Nobodies forced to use real names on lobsters. If someone posts anonymously, respect it. Don’t dox.

                                                                                                                                                      Yes, I pretty much said as much later on: “We can’t really prevent that because the only alternative would be to actively vet members” (that this isn’t feasible isn’t stated explicitly, but it’s pretty clear to everyone that it’s not).

                                                                                                                                                      I think both you and @ewintr have missed the point of my reply; this entire discussion is fairly hypothetical because of course no neo-Nazi is going to link to their StormFront account on their Lobsters profile (or Gab, or wherever these people hang out these days). I just wanted to point out why having known neo-Nazis on Lobsters is something that people would object to, and why some people would choose not to visit Lobsters if this were the case.

                                                                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                                                                        No. You’re wrong. It won’t remain hypothetical. Look at how many people got caught from the 6th based on social media.

                                                                                                                                                  2. 6

                                                                                                                                                    would you think it’s reasonable if they would object to this

                                                                                                                                                    I totally would understand why they might object to this. Then again, dude was put into prison and served his time. According to the law, he has received his punishment. Anything further is just extrajudicial retribution–understandable but not lawful.

                                                                                                                                                    would you enjoy interacting with someone who literally wants to kill you and everyone like you and worships an attempt to do exactly that?

                                                                                                                                                    If they were polite and solved my problem, sure. It’d be weird, but I’d rather have the help than not. The second they started going on about that other stuff, I’d report them cheerfully.

                                                                                                                                                    For all we know Reiser or the StormFront maintainer are already participating on Lobsters anonymously.

                                                                                                                                                    Exactly. For the dedicated opposition, this kneejerk intolerance serves no real obstacle–and can even be really useful as a leveraging point to disrupt a community. It’s like people have never played Among Us.

                                                                                                                                                    but I see no reason to ban them here for just that.

                                                                                                                                                    The problem is, several Lobsters I believe would be more than happy to do that, and would want it in a CoC. Further, where do you draw the line? How much Nazi is too Nazi? How little pedophilia is acceptable? I don’t want to make those calls–I’d rather focus on the (much simpler) tests of a) has this user treated other users respectfully in this space and b) has this user stayed on-topic. If followed, I believe those two rules are sufficient to guarantee a good time for everybody.

                                                                                                                                                    But if you know you’re talking to the StormFront webmaster then … yeah, I’d rather not.

                                                                                                                                                    As an aside, the world-wide experts in decentralization are about to all be, or keep company with, some really distasteful people. Ignoring their experience because they’re icky strikes me as a waste.

                                                                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                                                                      The Reiser case is a bit more complicated, as I agree criminals should be given a second chance. However, it’s not unreasonable for victims of the crime to still harbour (strong) feelings of animosity; I don’t think that’s “extrajudicial retribution”. I don’t think that many people would happily chat with their sister’s murderer about filesystems after they served their time.

                                                                                                                                                      At any rate, I only mentioned Reiser to illustrate the perpetrator/victim relationship, as it’s so clear in this case. I was tempted to leave that out entirely as it’s quite a different case from neo-Nazis.

                                                                                                                                                      would you enjoy interacting with someone who literally wants to kill you and everyone like you and worships an attempt to do exactly that?

                                                                                                                                                      If they were polite and solved my problem, sure. It’d be weird, but I’d rather have the help than not. The second they started going on about that other stuff, I’d report them cheerfully.

                                                                                                                                                      Alright, fair enough. But it’s not hard to see how other people would make a different choice here.

                                                                                                                                                      where do you draw the line? How much Nazi is too Nazi? How little pedophilia is acceptable?

                                                                                                                                                      I don’t have clear answers to that; but this is a kind of reasoning I don’t really like. Maybe there’s a better name for this, but I like to call the “it’s hard fallacy”, which goes like: “it is hard to draw a line, therefore, we should not draw a line at all”.

                                                                                                                                                      I’ve seen the same type of reasoning in conversations about civility. It can be really hard to draw a clear line about what is or isn’t acceptable, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try at all. Clearly there should a line somewhere otherwise people replying with just “you’re a cunt” would be “acceptable”, and I think we can agree that it’s not. You can also see this fallacy in some other (political) topics.

                                                                                                                                                      I’m not actually in favour of banning people for off-site behaviour unless it’s particularly egregious, such as active neo-Nazis, and even then I’d have to carefully look at the specific case at hand. In general I think the bar should be pretty high for this, but I do think there is a bar … somewhere.

                                                                                                                                                      I mean, do you really expect black people or Jewish members to happily interact with people we happen to know are neo-Nazis or KKK members? If someone in your local soccer club is a great bloke and fun to hang out with, and then you discover he’s a Grand Hobbit Ghoul in the KKK (or whatever ridiculous ranks they have) then you would continue that relationship as-if nothing happened (and before you answer “yes I would”, would you expect everyone to do so, including your black teammates?)

                                                                                                                                                  3. 16

                                                                                                                                                    The problem, of course, is that then you lose all the people who don’t want to hang out with Nazis, or with people (like Hans Reiser) who murdered their wife.

                                                                                                                                                    1. 25

                                                                                                                                                      In an online forum for talking about X, I’d much rather have a room full of people who may be assholes elsewhere talking politely about X than I would a room full of people who might be lovely elsewhere being assholes in my forum because of something completely unrelated to X.

                                                                                                                                                      1. 7

                                                                                                                                                        Thank you for this succinct explanation.

                                                                                                                                                      2. 12

                                                                                                                                                        On the internet, no one knows you’re a dog.

                                                                                                                                                        Who’s to say what someone’s intentions are? If people start causing problems, by all means remove them. The alternative is doxxing everyone who joins lobsters or digging up dirt, is that somehow a better alternative?

                                                                                                                                                        I get it, no one wants to share a board with Nazis or murderers. I don’t either. But this social equivalent of a preemptive strike has the potential to be way worse.

                                                                                                                                                        1. 11

                                                                                                                                                          A good rule of thumb, in programming and elsewhere, is to always consider at least three solutions to any problem. There are in fact other solutions beyond the false dichotomy “doxxing everyone” and “accepting everyone”, one common one being a Code of Conduct. Personally I would go with “you must pass this very bar to participate”.

                                                                                                                                                          1. 7

                                                                                                                                                            Just because a comparison of two solutions are presented doesn’t mean you have to jump to “this is a false dichotomy.” Also, I thought we already had that with the lobsters rules? How does a code of conduct actually differ?

                                                                                                                                                            1. 15

                                                                                                                                                              Well, friendlysock apparently can compare Nazis as somehow equivalent to their victims (both sides apparently need to “mellow”). Most CoC would involve kicking him out for that.

                                                                                                                                                              1. 6

                                                                                                                                                                I don’t agree with the comparison and I don’t think friendlysock would be a good mod based on the fact that he could draw it. I just want to put this out there though - if there was a felon, Nazi or other unsavory person who could provide some insight into problems I’m trying to solve then I would still have an open ear so long as they stay on topic and don’t bring up their unrelated interests. Not doing so seems short sighted.

                                                                                                                                                                Most Codes of Conduct are pretty crappy btw. Ruby has a good one, nearly all of the others are too suffocating.

                                                                                                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                                                                                                  I think both you and @itamarst may be missing something in how I wrote that–and that’s on me for articulating incorrectly.

                                                                                                                                                                  My point was not to draw equivalence between those groups. My point was that everybody has some outgroup that they would prefer to see kicked out.

                                                                                                                                                                2. 4

                                                                                                                                                                  Maybe you should resolve that with friendlysock, then. Not going to fan these flames anymore.

                                                                                                                                                            2. 9

                                                                                                                                                              How is it “pre-emptive strike” to just not want to hang out with people you don’t like?

                                                                                                                                                              This isn’t like…. the seat of government. This is a place to talk with people. Absolutely nobody is under any obligation to listen to people (short of mods basically “kicking people out”). There is zero moral requirement to listen to “varied viewpoints” or have an open mind.

                                                                                                                                                              EDIT: And pointing to a previous declaration of moderation wishes as “digging up dirt” in a conversation about mod applications is rich. Are we supposed to just treat every conversation in some weird vacuum even when it comes to something so obviously relevant? I know you’re saying this in good faith but how is that not fair game?

                                                                                                                                                              And like… you know what? These people that get doxxed or whatever? They are the ones that are vocal about their opinions. That’s how you even know that they are these kinds of people. If they kept their mouth shut we wouldn’t even be able to know!

                                                                                                                                                              I’m tired of being lectured about how I’m the bad person for not wanting to deal with people who not only are (IMO) morally bad people, but also don’t have the social IQ to keep it to themselves.

                                                                                                                                                              1. 10

                                                                                                                                                                These people that get doxxed or whatever? They are the ones that are vocal about their opinions.

                                                                                                                                                                Alright, where does the dirt digging stop, then? Everyone that’s somehow associated as commenting in this thread, supportive or otherwise? Because they may somehow have an agenda too?

                                                                                                                                                                Dude, you’re not the bad person. No one’s saying you are. I’m just done with communities that engage in shit slinging, doxxing, and public shaming rather than actual discussion in good faith.

                                                                                                                                                                Anyway, peace out, lobsters. N-gate was right about you.

                                                                                                                                                                1. 4

                                                                                                                                                                  I had someone PM me with personal details about myself while using a randomized username on reddit a few years back because I said that I didn’t think Ohio State was very good that year. People dox and dig up dirt for varied reasons. The nazi thing is an extreme example of that, but it happens for all sorts of other strange reasons as well.

                                                                                                                                                                  I no longer use Reddit because of that event, and now I try to stick to a minimal set of social sites (like this one) where it’s obvious who I am if you search my username or look at my profile.

                                                                                                                                                                  I don’t think you should feel obligated to listen to someone’s viewpoint if it’s non-technical (or even if it is technical really), but in this forum, the less I know about people, the better. I like hearing opinions or thoughts on tech without knowing who they are. I can’t control how they think or feel otherwise.

                                                                                                                                                              2. 5

                                                                                                                                                                Are you asking for Lobsters (and its mods, etc.) to:

                                                                                                                                                                • Explicitly condemn Nazism, white supremacy, and murder
                                                                                                                                                                • Ban anyone who publicly espouses these ideas, on or off our site
                                                                                                                                                                1. 24

                                                                                                                                                                  You write as if that would be some kind of absurd idea, when it seems quite sensible to me..?

                                                                                                                                                                  1. 10

                                                                                                                                                                    thank you for objecting to that.

                                                                                                                                                                    reductio ad absurdem requires absurdity, and I’m not used to seeing “explicitly condemn Nazism” held forth as obviously absurd.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. 5

                                                                                                                                                                      It seems absurd to me because it’s kind of a given. Not every site needs to say “hey don’t murder people” for me to feel good about using it. It’s a general human sentiment that murder is bad. Explicitly stating it and only targeting those viewpoints makes me wonder why we aren’t explicitly denouncing every type of supremacy, nativism, genocide, rape, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                      But I do think banning people who espouse any of those views (spoken or unspoken) on the site is not only warranted, but should also lead to a probationary period for the person who invited them.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. 7

                                                                                                                                                                        I don’t think we need to make a list of things we don’t agree with. But I do think that we should be clear that people who are known for their malicious activities (e.g. support for murder or racism) are not welcome here.

                                                                                                                                                                      2. -1

                                                                                                                                                                        Putting this bluntly, the second one is stupid and anyone who argues for it is stupid. On or off our site? What the hell. Maybe in person I could logic my way into thinking that it’s ok but online? Thousands of miles away with no immediate threat to my wellbeing?

                                                                                                                                                                        Online there’s always going to be that one jerk who doxes someone else for wrong-think and it’ll start with this.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. 12

                                                                                                                                                                          Thank you for proving your commitment to the cause of rational discussion by calling me stupid.

                                                                                                                                                                          The thing is, we want Lobsters to be a place where all people are welcome. If we allow known neo-nazis to hang out with us, then people that feel threatened by those neo-nazis won’t come here. Sure, it’s not a threat to them per se, but why would you want to spend your free time talking to people that literally want you dead?

                                                                                                                                                                          Being a neo-nazi is a choice. Belonging to a minority group isn’t. We should give the neo-nazis the boot and welcome the members of minority groups.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. 5

                                                                                                                                                                            why would you want to spend your free time talking to people that literally want you dead?

                                                                                                                                                                            Because they have information I want and are capable of staying on topic for the site I’m on. I do not care what they do anywhere else. It is incredibly vexing that people are making me defend the scum of humanity.

                                                                                                                                                                            I believe all people are welcome on lobste.rs if they’re not talking about tons of off-topic stuff and spewing out hate while they’re here.

                                                                                                                                                                            1. 13

                                                                                                                                                                              Do you also want information from people who, for example, would feel uncomfortable sharing a discussion forum with neo-nazis?

                                                                                                                                                                              This isn’t value-neutral, we have a choice to make: either we welcome the neo-nazis, or we welcome the people-who-don’t-want-to-talk-to-neo-nazis. I know who’s getting my vote.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                                                                                                                This isn’t value-neutral

                                                                                                                                                                                I reject that premise.

                                                                                                                                                                                The nazi stuff should not enter the flow of conversation for nearly any thread on lobste.rs. The only reason we’re discussing it now because this is a meta thread and it was brought up by itamarst. If he hadn’t then we’d not know and not care.

                                                                                                                                                                                So I think that if we actually talk about the things that we thought we were going to talk about when we were invited in the first place there won’t be any issues with your first sentence.

                                                                                                                                                                          2. 7

                                                                                                                                                                            Please don’t call other users or standpoints stupid. It’s okay to disagree, it’s even better to providing reasoning, but name-calling never helps.

                                                                                                                                                                      3. 7

                                                                                                                                                                        You only lose the people who care more about Nazi status more than technology–and they’d doubtless be happier elsewhere, in a community that puts ideology and identity above knowledge and civility. I’ve made my peace with that.

                                                                                                                                                                        I don’t think that you can fundamentally ensure that people always feel welcome, and there is no surer road to ruin than to cater to everybody’s exclusionary preferences. Everybody has a reason to hate Nazis, or furries, or Republicans, or women, or whatever–the only way a community grows and flourishes is by providing people the space and protocols to interact without requiring alignment on those things.

                                                                                                                                                                        Don’t want to take up more space here on it, but am happy to continue discussing in DMs with whoever would like to.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. 34

                                                                                                                                                                          The fact that you seem to define “civility” as - roughly speaking - some sort of shallow politeness enabling us all to chum it up with nazis so long as we’re speaking about computers, rather than as good citizenship and strong community built on respect for one’s peers suggests to me that you’d be a terrible moderator.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. 20

                                                                                                                                                                            Agreed, that kind of response seems like it comes from a place of privilege. As in, “this doesn’t concern me too much, what’s the big idea?”

                                                                                                                                                                            It’s been interesting to see convos here and elsewhere around accepting views that are rooted in hate but somehow we should all just suck it up because that’s “fair.” I’m often the only Black person in cis-White male dominated spaces so this is nothing new to me. Just…interesting to see this play out in the open for the first time.

                                                                                                                                                                            Confronted with the knowledge of one’s privilege blinding oneself to what the disenfranchised has known to be true for eons is fascinating to watch/read.

                                                                                                                                                                            1. 5

                                                                                                                                                                              I’ll politely point out that my view would extend, were the conversations civil and on-topic, to folks like Malcolm X or Newton or Seale–not just stuffy old white dudes.

                                                                                                                                                                              I think that, as John Perry Barlow observed, we here in cyberspace have the opportunity to transcend the strife we were all born into. Part of that means evaluating people based on their behaviour and not on what we think about their beliefs.

                                                                                                                                                                              Edit: fixed rather embarrassing misattribution.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. 13

                                                                                                                                                                                (Davos is a place in Switzerland. That piece was authored by John Perry Barlow. I recommend the movie Hypernormalisation, there’s a very interesting part featuring Barlow and the other technolibertarians, discussing the connections to the counter-culture movement in the 60s)

                                                                                                                                                                                I cannot help but find this sort of cyber-utopianism incredibly naïve. Things that happen on the internet can and do have effects on people in the real world. It’s been a long, long time since “just walk away from the screen, just close your eyes” was a genuine take to have.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. 4

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for catching that, still waking up.

                                                                                                                                                                                  It’s a naive approach, but that’s kinda the point right? Like, should we not strive to live in that more ideal, simpler, better world?

                                                                                                                                                                            2. 2

                                                                                                                                                                              good citizenship

                                                                                                                                                                              What do you mean by this?

                                                                                                                                                                              I agree btw.

                                                                                                                                                                            3. 18

                                                                                                                                                                              Everybody has a reason to hate Nazis, or furries, or Republicans, or women, or whatever

                                                                                                                                                                              I think you may be lumping together several dissimilar attitudes here.

                                                                                                                                                                              I do not think lobste.rs is suffering from including “the wrong people” or anything like that. We probably do have some people with terrible opinions, but it doesn’t leak into our usual discussions.

                                                                                                                                                                              However, I do think it would be bad to have a mod to express the attitude that “some people hate Nazis, some people hate women. A pox on both their houses!”

                                                                                                                                                                              I say “express” because I am not saying what you really think is “hating women is equivalent to hating Nazis”. But a mod has to be careful.

                                                                                                                                                                        2. 6

                                                                                                                                                                          Why stop with Nazis? If anyone shows any Nazi propaganda, they should be out. But let’s extend it to all other groups that cause harm to others. Any member of US army should be gone, heck, they didn’t try to kill my grandma, they killed my relatives, which were civilians (and they are still killing others in my country due to depleted uranium that was used in bombings). Also all the members of tech companies that help these strikes (looking at you, Microsoft et al).

                                                                                                                                                                          Obviously, I’m exaggerating here to show a point that if we only look at membership of a group to exclude someone, we might also start extending the groups, as various people can/are affected. Personally, I don’t care which group people belong to, as long as they are not a threat to my family and are trying to help (or are just plain neutral) — which I think plenty of people here are, and that’s the main reason I come to this site.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. 9

                                                                                                                                                                            We did exactly this when a Palantir showed up to show a neat thing. It was one of the most shameful things I’ve seen in my time here.

                                                                                                                                                                            1. 5

                                                                                                                                                                              You are not exaggerating at all.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                This reads like the opposite-day version of “First they came…” by Martin Niemöller.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                                  That is a great poem that I have only heard so far paraphrased. Thanks for sharing! However, it has been a rough week for me, so I don’t get the “opposite-day version” part, could you elaborate?

                                                                                                                                                                              2. 4

                                                                                                                                                                                Circumstances under which I would be OK with an Actual Nazi participating (both conditions must hold):

                                                                                                                                                                                1. User does not reveal themselves to be a Nazi on the site, either by explicit statement or in the way they act, and
                                                                                                                                                                                2. User is not notoriously a Nazi externally to the site, either for having done something terrible or by making themselves a “public figure” wrt their viewpoints.

                                                                                                                                                                                If someone behaves themselves on the site, and their behavior on the site does not create distress for others, I don’t see why people should be encourage in shitstirring. (If it is inevitable that someone’s presence will create distress, regardless of the behavior of anyone on the site, I would strongly suggest they use a pseudonym.)

                                                                                                                                                                                “Nazi” is an unlikely and hyperbolic example, but I’ve seen people go and seek out damning information of one sort or another about a member of a community (including doxxing them), and then make it a thing. It wouldn’t have been a thing, and wouldn’t have caused stress to members of oppressed populations, if they didn’t do that! By digging, they’ve actually caused harm. So my rule would be that the notoriety has to originate externally or via direct actions on the site, or you just incentivize this ugly community antipattern.

                                                                                                                                                                                (Some of my ancestors were murdered by Actual Nazis or had to emigrate to avoid them, in case you need that for my opinion to be valid.)

                                                                                                                                                                                ((EDIT: I don’t want to be a mod, though.))

                                                                                                                                                                              3. 8

                                                                                                                                                                                Maybe don’t apply if you’re seeking to do if because you think it’s what people want you to do… Someone with that personality might be inclined to lose interest before their term is up if they think popular opinion is drifting away from them…

                                                                                                                                                                                1. 22

                                                                                                                                                                                  My reasoning–and I’ve always held this position–is that anybody seeking such a position is either a lunatic, a tyrant, or both, and not to be trusted. Myself included.

                                                                                                                                                                                  That said…

                                                                                                                                                                                  Look, if we’re down to just one moderator, that’s a rough gig. That, plus the current state of the world, makes me worry for the site focus and discussion culture of Lobsters, and if I can help I’m happy to do so–and pushcx is welcome to shitcan and ban me (and will likely do so with great relish) at will should I fail in my duties.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Asking for sufficient votes before appliying is me, in effect, getting a gauge of if the community would agree to abide. As we’ve seen in my country this year, the legitimacy of government ultimately stems from the consent of the governed.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. 11

                                                                                                                                                                                    And as I’ve seen in my country (US) this year, it’s wise not to give power to folks who are in it for the attention :P

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. 5

                                                                                                                                                                                      I personally (and I have a decidedly average number of internet points) like the way your postings changed when your nick changed to friendly. That change shows an appreciation of your past and new styles that I would like to see in moderators.

                                                                                                                                                                                    2. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                      TBH asking to be upvoted seems like a bit of a conflict of interest with wanting to be a mod… as friendlysock said

                                                                                                                                                                                    3. 7

                                                                                                                                                                                      :(

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. 12

                                                                                                                                                                                      There’s a lot about this article I like (and the site - powered by solar power and sometimes offline/ cute!) but the xenophobia towards Chinese people is not acceptable.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. 30

                                                                                                                                                                                        This seems like an overreaction to me. There’s exactly two comments about China/Chinese people:

                                                                                                                                                                                        The Chinese don’t have a reputation for building quality products

                                                                                                                                                                                        and

                                                                                                                                                                                        The Chinese may not have a reputation for building quality products, but they sure know how to fix things.

                                                                                                                                                                                        But:

                                                                                                                                                                                        • statements exhibiting prejudice != xenophobia.
                                                                                                                                                                                        • reporting on a reputation is just stating a fact: this is indeed the reputation Chinese (consumer?) products have. You can’t infer the author thinks the reputation is accurate, especially given how they acted (they bought the Chinese product anyway).
                                                                                                                                                                                        • even if you believe the author does think the reputation is accurate: you don’t know how many experiences they have with Chinese products. Their belief in the accuracy of the reputation may be supported by their own experiences
                                                                                                                                                                                        • A jab against the quality of products is not a jab against the people producing the product. Even if the author phrases it using the unfortunately common conflation of a country and its people.
                                                                                                                                                                                        • it’s human and useful to generalize: a generalization isn’t necessarily problematic, unless the conclusions are extended too far. They aren’t suggesting you don’t buy Chinese products or only let things be repaired by a Chinese person, are they?
                                                                                                                                                                                        1. 17

                                                                                                                                                                                          The Chinese don’t have a reputation for building quality products

                                                                                                                                                                                          The funny thing about this one is that not only does the person saying it come off as prejudiced, they’re also out of touch.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Almost any electronic device made today is built in China, with components also made in China. From high end Apple products down to bottom of the barrel knock offs. Just being made in Chna doesn’t say much about quality any more.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. 17

                                                                                                                                                                                            I agree with the parent, this also rubbed me the wrong way. Even just having “the Chinese” in your vocabulary is too much IMO, no matter whether it displays xenophobia or just unreflected prejudice.

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. 9

                                                                                                                                                                                              The author’s native language is Dutch, in which it’s still idiomatic to say ‘the Chinese’ to mean ‘the Chinese people’. It used to be idiomatic in English as well, of course, but it has gathered negative connotations in the past few decades. That’s something his proofreader should’ve picked up.

                                                                                                                                                                                              As regard the statements about the quality of Chinese electronics and workmanship, yes, I could do without those as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                                The author’s native language is Dutch, in which it’s still idiomatic to say ‘the Chinese’ to mean ‘the Chinese people’. It used to be idiomatic in English as well, of course, but it has gathered negative connotations in the past few decades

                                                                                                                                                                                                Im curious how else you would say it? Would you attribute it to the country and not the people? i.e. China (or Chinese manufacturers) don’t have a reputation for quality?

                                                                                                                                                                                                Is the issue attributing it to a people as a whole?

                                                                                                                                                                                                Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the issue.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just wouldn’t make unsubstantiated claims about an entire country.

                                                                                                                                                                                            2. 11

                                                                                                                                                                                              There is a condescending tone at play though, which generalises Chinese people (e.g. the guy that repaired his laptop) to members of a group and refuses to treat them as individuals.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I don’t take issue with the literal meaning of those sentences, but given their tone and cultural context, I think it’s rather insensitive and unhelpful.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                                The second occurrence was referring to a repair shop they sent it to. So unless that shop was in China (I don’t think they say so, so I assume not) they’re referring to the ethnicity of the shop worker.

                                                                                                                                                                                              2. 9

                                                                                                                                                                                                MacBooks are made in China, so if you can agree they’re at least on par with X60 build quality, the point falls apart. Perhaps you could say Lenovo chose a subpar Chinese supplier, but that hardly indicts the whole country.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I enjoyed my X200s until hardware failure & blue screens, and my old X61s is in a closet (some sort of display issue). Eventually, these machines wear out. I find MacBooks at least as well-designed/-built, and the M1 ain’t too shabby, so while I miss the 12” ThinkPads I’ll be fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                                                More minor issues include not being able to scroll with my Magic Mouse,

                                                                                                                                                                                                Which magic mouse do you have? Mine (1st gen) works fine and has been since at least kernel version 5.0, if I recall correctly the driver was added around kernel version 3.17.