1. 7

    Meanwhile, a friend of mine just got a response on a PR. Written in nice polite professional prose: “Sure, we can merge that, thanks for this improvement, but would you first please …” and that’s where it spun off into senselessness. It was all politely written, no swearing, but made no sense.

    Linus will swear. And read the code. And understand both the code and what you tried to do, and have a decent idea of what’s achievable.

    It seems to me that some people really mind the swearing, and do not realise that everyone has faults. Complaining about swearing isn’t a step towards faultless people, it’s effectively pushing us towards other faults, the ones that get no complaints.

    1. 18

      Why is there a dichotomy? Why would reducing rudeness be “pushing us towards other faults”?

      1. 0

        Suppose you are to choose a team leader. You can choose a team leader, but you have to choose from among the people who are there, none of whom are saints. One will swear like a sailor, another doesn’t care about documentation, a third suffers from Rambling Meeting Syndrome. Disallowing one of them for one fault doesn’t happen in a vacuum, because “none of the three” is not an option.

      2. 21

        Removing or reducing one fault doesn’t necessarily imply the rise of another. Someone can both say nonsense and be a jerk at the same time, but I’d rather they just say nonsense.

        I’ve certainly responded to PRs with nonsense occasionally. It happens, because I didn’t read closely enough or just missed something. But I at least try not to be jerk.

        Should people be jerks? I’d rather not. At least try not to.

        Should people say nonsense? Again, I’d rather not.

        The world doesn’t have to be seen as black or white. People can ask others to not be a jerk without simultaneously endorsing the rise of nonsense.

        1. 17

          It seems to me that some people really mind the swearing

          I’m from New England. I swear a lot.

          That said, Torvald’s candor is unacceptable. There’s no reason to devolve into namecalling (“moron”, “brain damaged”) that’s clear intent is to hurt feelings.

          So no, I don’t mind the word “fuck.” However, I really fucking mind it when people insult other’s intelligence with the intentionality of hurting their feelings. Who would want to work on a project like that? I know that I wouldn’t.

          1. 9

            Pretty sure being crude and being nonsensical both garner complaints, for example, you’re complaining about your friend’s nonsensical PR response, and the author here is complaining about Linus’s crude and belittling language.

            While understanding the issues is much appreciated, so is not being a jerk. Technical skills have brought us this far, but soft skills will help bring us to a future where more and more people are willing to get involved with open-source (and other) projects.

            1. 13

              I don’t think the article is about swearing. It’s about verbal abuse and how to convey the same information without attacking the recipient.

              1. 5

                You hit the nail on the head. I feel like we’re moving rapidly towards a culture of, “Let’s all celebrate diversity and embrace inclusion, except for those who we disagree with who are just going to have to change their barbaric ways.”

                For every person who is offended by swear words (I mean, words of all things) there’s someone else who reads a phrase like, “this is pure and utter bullshit,” who thinks, man, this person is really passionate about what they’re talking about, maybe they have something interesting to say.

              1. 13

                Prelude: I worked myself into a state where I needed a two-hour break after about twenty minutes of keyboarding. Two keyboards with different layouts on different desks, changing between them every few minutes, a terrible project, and some ungood stress out of the office. But as luck would have it, that office was in a… well, not in a hospital, but on campus, so got to see a real specialist quickly. A friend in his department just brought me along. He spoke cluefully and I’ve followed his advice in the decades since. In brief: “Pay attention to your body. Learn what hurts and stop doing that. Don’t let anyone at you with a knife.” It’s served me well. I admit to a certain arrogance about it.

                A colleague and I bought and tested about 10-15 keyboards, including some very expensive specials, and the ones we ended up using weren’t the most expensive one, which probably would get you into trouble with the bookkeepers if you were to try it. Arrogance helps.

                I currently use an 88-key unlabelled WASD with dampening o-rings. Because it keeps me from moving my hands much while I type, and keeps me from looking at the keyboard, and I like the feeling of the keys. You should ignore the first sentence in this paragraph and focus on the second, because the brand name isn’t important, how your body reacts is vastly important. Does it feel okay? Then okay. Not? Then change.

                The same applies to your chair and desk, because your body is one. The shoulders are tightly connected to your hands. (The chair comes first, btw. You get a chair for sitting on, then a desk that suits your body on that chair. http://rant.gulbrandsen.priv.no/arnt/ideal-office has more speechifying about chairs and stuff. I speechify too much.)

                1. 4

                  This reminds me that when I was younger, I spent a lot of time behind my computer sitting on a plain old stool and I remember it was much more comfortable than the more traditional big and heavy armchair I currently use at my daily job. I think not having a backrest forces me to keep my back in a straight and comfortable position.

                  1. 3

                    I use synergy to share a single keyboard and mouse across computer systems. It works fine, and it can deal with Macs, Linux and Windows. You can even cut-n-paste across the systems as well (text only though).

                    1. 1

                      Have they fixed the bugs I ran across when I tried that?

                      1. 1

                        I haven’t encountered those issues, but the Mac is the server, and the Linux system is the client. I don’t know if that makes any difference.

                        Also, I think I started using it post 2011, so maybe those bugs don’t exist in the version I’m using.

                    2. 2

                      A stressful job plays a larger role than you might think. I speak from experience. About 10 years ago, I had really bad pain typing - for months. I quit my job, moved somewhere else, got a new job and the pain went away. It still flares up from time to time if I overdo it, but goes away quickly.

                    1. 2

                      That’s rich, from a guy who done his best to advance client-server cloud model in his time.

                      OK, not really happy about the acquisition either, but overall GitHub has been a massive boon to the community in general. It lowered the threshold to collaboration, publishing your projects and facilitated a bunch of dependency fetching ecosystems with much higher availability than was possible before.

                      1. 5

                        How did he do that?

                        I thought he was involved in writing Netscape Navigator browser and its mail component neither of which promote cloud model.

                        1. 2

                          You posted that comment using a web browser which identifies itself as “Mozilla” and a cloud-hosted application called “lobste.rs”. IMO it’s fair to say that someone who was both a primary author of Mozilla-the-browser and a founder of mozilla.org was involved in enabling, even promoting the model lobste.rs uses.

                          1. 2

                            This is basically an argument that the web itself or really any client-server approach is promoting cloud model which I find absurd. Cloud-hosted wasn’t a technologically inevitable outcome as you could build something similar to email. You still can as you can use those same technologies JWZ help building to run your stuff on your own hardware.

                            I don’t remember either JWZ or Mozilla in his time promoting running stuff in cloud (other people’s computers).

                            1. 1

                              He wrote software that made it feasible to put even user interface code on a server running in a colo somewhere. The UI on such software was primitive and laggy compared to using alternatives like MFC or Qt, but on the other hand a webapp didn’t have to be purchased, downloaded or installed.

                              I don’t recall him saying that anyone should write webapps. But he wrote software that made it feasible, and did his best to get that software installed everywhere.

                              1. -1

                                Other people’s computers? You make it sound like a P2P network. I know zero cloud services hosted on other people’s computers, as opposed to other corporations.

                                Oh and funny how email was decentralized right until its consolidation as browser-based client-server (sorry, cloud) platforms.

                                1. 3

                                  “Other people’s computers” is a popular description of where cloud-hosted apps run. I don’t think anyone, certainly not me, means P2P by that.

                                  Email is still decentralized. You can run your own server as I and many others do. It can also have a webmail interface like mine does and that has been true for 2 decades. The fact that users are consolidating on few providers does not make underlying technology more “cloudy” and that did not happen for the first decade also strongly suggest that change did not happen because of underlying (web) technology.

                                  1. 1

                                    What share of the world’s email has to be stored in a single database before you consider it centralised? 50% perhaps?

                                    Google alone hosts a two-digit percentage of email users. I’ve heard the number 25% mentioned. Assuming one From address per message, an average of 1.4 To/Cc addresses and a 25% market share for Google, Google stores 50% of the email that was sent yesterday on behalf of the sender or any recipient. I self-host, so Google stores about 33% of my email.

                                    (I made up the number 1.4. I don’t really care about the precise details. And I don’t care about whether you want to consider just Google or the also the next ten big hosters.)

                                    1. 1

                                      This debate has moved far away from JWZ and cloud to what feels off topic to main theme (Github+MS).

                                      Since you asked, I have no idea what percentage of contained data if any should be a limit at which something counts as centralized. I think your question reveals and underlying dilemma which is are we talking about effectively centralized in a sense that for all intents and purposes everything happens at one place, or actually centralized in a sense, that it can’t happen elsewhere.

                                      Clearly in the second sense email is not centralized as one can demonstrably run their own server as still so many do without penalties as long as the server is properly configured. It might not make economic or otherwise sense, but at least for now you are not technologically locked out.

                                      I don’t think it is centralized in the first sense either and I am not sure your metric is valid. In that sense the whole web is already centralized or was, as Google scrapped everything public so in a way it stored close to all of it. Let’s imagine that we are left only with two email providers of approximately equal size and usage pattern. Then by your approach each of them will contain more or less all email and yet neither of which would actually be in a position where everyone had to be.

                                      And to bring this closer to thread’s original topic, I don’t think any of this has much to do with web as such. It happened because costs of running your own server did not fall like the cost of hosted accounts which also provided a degree of freedom compared to ISP’s or company’s. What web did do, as it improved, is change client that is used to access email as there was less need for native OS ones. And even that is not completely true since Gmail has native client both for Android and iOS.

                                      I think we would move to “cloud” services over time even if web did not exist or remained limited to HTML2. We would just be using Windows apps to do so.

                        1. 39

                          I don’t understand the author’s objection to Outreachy. As far as I can tell, they want to fund some interns from marginalized groups so that they can work on open-source. They are not preventing the author from working on open-source. They are not preventing the author from funding interns he approves of from working on open-source. What is the problem?

                          1. 23

                            Outreachy funds members of specific minority groups and would not fund a cisgender white guy’s internship. He decries this as discrimination.

                            On this topic, the term discrimination has differing interpretations and it’s very easy for folks to talk past each other when it comes up. It sounds he’s using it in a way that means disfavoring people based on the sex or race they belong to. Another popular definition is that it only applies to actions taken against groups that have been historically discriminated against. This use gets really strong pushback from people who disagree with the aims or means of projects like Outreachy as begging the question, making an assumption that precludes meaningful discussion of related issues.

                            1. 4

                              It’s not only that Outreachy would not fund a cisgender white guy’s internship. Outreachy also would not fund Asian minority’s internship. Asian minority is a group that has been historically discriminated against. Outreachy is discriminating against specific minority. In summary, Outreachy is simply discriminating, it is not using alternative definition of discrimination.

                              (Might be relevant: I am Asian.)

                              1. 7

                                I asked Karen Sandler. This is the reason for the selection of groups:

                                <karenesq> JordiGH: I saw the lobsters thread. the expansion within the US to the non-gender related criteria was based on the publication by multiple tech companies of their own diversity statistics. We just expanded our criteria to the groups who were by far the least represented.

                                1. 2

                                  Thanks a lot for clarifying this with Karen Sandler!

                                  I think this proves beyond any shade of doubt that Outreachy is concerned with not historical injustice, but present disparity.

                                2. 3

                                  He had a pretty fair description of where the disputes were coming from. Far as what you’re saying on Outreachy, the Asian part still fits into it as even cultural diversity classes I’ve seen say the stereotypes around Asians are positive for stuff like being smart or educated. Overly positive to the point that suicide due to pressure to achieve was a bit higher according to those sources. There’s lots of Asians brought into tech sector due to a mix of stereotypes and H1-B. The commonness of white males and Asians in software development might be why they were excluded with the white males. That makes sense to me if I look at it through the view they likely have of who is privileged in tech.

                                  1. 3

                                    Yes, it makes sense that way, but it does not make sense in “historical discrimination” sense pushcx argued. I believe this is an evidence that these organizations are concerned with the present disparity, not with the history. Therefore, I believe they should cease to (dishonestly, I think) argue history argument.

                                  2. 2

                                    Well, if you were a woman or identified as one they would accept you, regardless if you were Asian or not. I do wonder why they picked to outreach to the particular groups they picked.

                                    And you have to pick some groups. If you pick none/all, then you’re not doing anything different than GSoC, and there already is a GSoC, so there would be no point for Outreachy.

                                    1. 1

                                      You can pick groups that have been historically discriminated against, as pushcx suggested. Outreachy chose otherwise.

                                      1. 2

                                        To nitpick, I was talking about the term “discrimination” because I’ve seen it as a source of people talking past each other, not advocating for an action or even a particular definition of the term. Advocating my politics would’ve compromised my ability to effectively moderate, though incorrect assumptions were still made about the politics of the post I removed and that I did so out of disagreement, so… shrug

                                3. 49

                                  For those who are used to privilege, equality feels like discrimination.

                                  1. 18

                                    I think the author’s point is that offering an internship for only specific groups is discrimination. From a certain point of view, I understand how people see it that way. I also understand how it’s seen as fair. Whether that’s really discrimination or not is up for debate.

                                    What’s not up for debate is that companies or people should be able to give their money however they feel like it. It’s their money. If a company wants to only give their money to Black Africans from Phuthaditjhaba, that’s their choice! Fine by me!

                                    Edit: trying to make it clear I don’t want to debate, but make the money point.

                                    1. 19

                                      It is discrimination, that’s what discrimination means. But that doesn’t automatically make it unfair or net wrong.

                                      1. 12

                                        The alternative is inclusive supply plus random selection. You identify the various groups that exist. Go out of your way to bring in potential candidates of a certain number in each one. The selection process is blind. Whoever is selected gets the help. Maybe auditable process on top of that. This is a fair process that boosts minorities on average to whatever ratio you’re doing the invite. It helps whites and males, too.

                                        That’s the kind of thing I push. Plus, different ways to improve the blindness of the evaluation processes. That is worth a lot of research given how much politics factors into performance evaluations in workplaces. It affects everyone but minority members even more per the data. Those methods, an equal pull among various categories, and blind select are about as fair as it gets. Although I don’t know exact methods, I did see GapJumpers describing something that sounds closer to this with positive results. So, the less-discriminating way of correcting imbalances still achieves that goal. The others aren’t strictly necessary.

                                        The next scenario is specific categories getting pulled in more than everyone with organizations helping people in the other ones exclusively to boost them. That’s what’s going on here. Given the circumstances, I’m not going to knock them even if not as fair as other method. They’re still helping. It looks less discriminatory if one views it at a high level where each group addresses those they’re biased for. I did want to show the alternative since it rarely gets mentioned, though.

                                        1. 13

                                          I really agree with this. I was with a company who did a teenage code academy. I have a masters, and did a lot of work tutoring undergrads and really want to get back into teaching/academia.

                                          I wanted to teach, but was actually pushed down the list because they wanted to give teaching positions to female staff first. I was told I could take a support role. The company also did a lot of promotion specifically to all girls schools and to try to pull women in. They had males in the classes too, but the promotion was pretty bias.

                                          Also I want to point out that I had a stronger teaching background/qualifications than some of the other people put in those positions.

                                          I’m for fairness and giving people opportunity, but I feel as if efforts to stop discrimination just lead to more discrimination. The thing is, we’re scientists and engineers. We know the maths. We can come up with better ways to pull in good random distributions of minorities/non-minorities and don’t have to resort to workshops that promote just another equal but opposite mono-culture. If anything you do potential developers a disservice by having workshops that are only women instead of half-and-half. You get a really one sided narrative.

                                          1. 9

                                            I appreciate you sharing that example. It mirrors some that have happened to me. Your case is a good example of sexism against a man that might be more qualified than a women being hired based on gender. I’ll also note that so-called “token hires” are often treated poorly once they get in. I’ve seen small organizations where that’s not true since the leadership just really believed in being good to people and bringing in different folks. They’re rare. Most seem to be environments people won’t want to be in since conflict or resentment increases.

                                            In your case and most of those, random + blind selection might have solved the problem over time without further discrimination or resentment. If process is auditable, everyone knows the race or gender part gave everyone a fair shot. From there, it was performance. That’s a meaningful improvement to me in reducing the negative effects that can kick in when correcting imbalances. What I will say, though, is I don’t think we can always do this since performance in some jobs is highly face-to-face, based on how groups perceive the performer, etc. I’m still uncertain if something other than quotas can help with those.

                                            Most jobs I see people apply for can be measured, though. If it can be measured, it can sometimes already be blinded or may be measured blindly if we develop techniques for that.

                                            1. 3

                                              I agree with these comments, plus, thanks for sharing a real life example. We are definitely fighting discrimination with more discrimination doing things the current way. For a bit I’ve thought that a blind evaluation process would be best. It may not be perfect, but it seems like a step in a better direction. It’s encouraging to see other people talking about it.

                                              One other thought- I think we as society are handling race, gender, age, etc problems wrong. Often, it’s how a certain group ‘A’ has persecuted another group ‘B’. However, this isn’t really fair for the people in group ‘A’ that having nothing to do with what the other people are doing. Because they share the same gender/race/whatever, they are lumped in. Part of this seems to be human nature, and it’s not always wrong. But maybe fighting these battles in more specific cases would help.

                                            2. 5

                                              I think the problem here is that whites and males don’t need extra help. They already get enough help from their position in society. Sure, equal distribution sounds great, but adding an equal amount to everyone doesn’t make them equal; it doesn’t nullify the discrepancy that was there before. Is it good to do so? Yes, of course, but it would be better served and better for society to focus on helping those without built-in privilege to counteract the advantage that white males have.

                                              1. 9

                                                There are lots of people in bad situations who are white and male. Saying someones race and gender determines how much help someone has had in life seems both racist and sexist.

                                                1. 2

                                                  I’m not saying that it applies in all circumstances. But I am saying that they have a much larger support structure available to them, even if they didn’t get started on the same footing as other examples.

                                                  It’s not directly because of their race and sex, it’s because of their privilege. That’s the fundamental difference.

                                                  1. 6

                                                    I don’t even know how much it matters if it was true. Especially in rural or poor areas of white people. Their support structure is usually some close friends, family, people they live with, and so on. Often food stamps, too. Their transportation or Internet might be unreliable. Few jobs close to them. They have to pack up and leave putting themselves or their family into the unknown with about no money to save for both the move and higher cost of living many areas with more jobs will entail. Lots of drug abuse and suicide among these groups relative to whites in general. Most just hope they get a decent job where management isn’t too abusive and the lowish wages cover the bills. Then, you talk about how they have “a much larger support structure available to them” “because of their privilege.” They’d just stare at you blinking wondering what you’re talking about.

                                                    Put Your Solutions Where Your Ideology Is

                                                    Since you talk about advantages of privilege and support structures, I’m curious what you’d recommend to a few laypeople in my white family who will work, have basic to good people skills, and are non-technical. They each have a job in area where there aren’t lots of good jobs. They make enough money to make rent. I often have trouble contacting them because they “have no minutes” on their phones. The areas they’re in have no wired Internet directly to renters (i.e. pay extra for crap), satellite, spotty connections, or they can’t afford it. Some have transportation, others lost theirs as it died with four digit repairs eclipsing 1-2 digits of surplus money. All their bosses exploit them to whatever extent possible. All the bosses underschedule them where the work couldn’t get done then try to work them to death to do it. The schedules they demand are horrible with at least two of us having schedules that shift anywhere from morning to evening to graveyard shift in mid-week. It kills people slowly over time. Meanwhile, mentally drains them in a way that prevents them learning deep stuff that could get them in good jobs. Most of them and their friends feel like zombies due to scheduling with them just watching TV, chilling with friends/family, or something otherwise comfortable on off days. This is more prevalent as companies like Khronos push their optimizations into big businesses with smaller ones following suit. Although not among current family now, many of them in the past worked 2-3 jobs with about no time to sleep or have fun just to survive. Gets worse when they have an infant or kids.

                                                    This is the kind of stuff common among poor and working classes throughout America, including white people. Is this the average situation of you, your friends, and/or most white males or females you know of? These people “don’t need help?” I’m stretching my brain to try to figure out how what you’re saying fits their situation. In my view, they don’t have help so much as an endless supply of obstacles ranging from not affording bills to their evil bosses whose references they may depend on to police or government punishing them with utility bill-sized tickets for being poor. What is your specific recommendation for white people without any surplus of money, spotty Internet, unreliable transportation, and heavily-disrupted sleep?

                                                    Think quickly, too, because white people in these situations aren’t allowed much time to think between their stressful jobs (often multiple) and families to attend to. Gotta come up with solutions about on instinct. Just take the few minutes of clarity a poor, white person might have to solve a problem while in the bathroom or waiting in line at a store. It’s gotta work with almost no thought, energy, savings, or credit score. What you got? I’ll pass it on to see if they think it’s hopeful or contributes to the entertainment for the day. Hope and entertainment is about the most I can give to the person I’m visiting Saturday since their “privilege” hasn’t brought them much of anything else.

                                                    1. 2

                                                      I’m not saying that it’s applicable in every situation; I am specifically talking about the tech industry. I don’t think it’s about prejudice in this case. I think it’s about fixing the tech culture, which white males have an advantage in, regardless of their economic background. White males don’t always have privilege, that would be a preposterous claim. But it’s pretty lopsided in their favor.

                                                      1. 2

                                                        I am specifically talking about the tech industry.

                                                        It’s probably true if narrowed to tech industry. It seems to favor white and Asian males at least in bottom roles. Gets whiter as it goes up. Unfortunately, they also discriminate more heavily on age, background, etc. They want us in there for the lower-paying stuff but block us from there in a lot of areas. It’s why I recommend young people considering tech avoid it if they’re worried about age discrimination or try to move into management at some point. Seems to reduce the risk a bit.

                                                      2. 2

                                                        Your comment is a great illustration of the danger of generalizing things on the basis of racis or gender, mistakenly classifying a lot of people as “privileged”. Ideally, the goal of a charity should be to help unprivileged people in general, for whatever reason they are unprivileged, not because of their race or gender.

                                                      3. 4

                                                        “It’s not directly because of their race and sex, it’s because of their privilege. That’s the fundamental difference.”

                                                        But that’s not a difference to other racist/sexist/discriminatory thinking at all. Racists generally don’t dislike black people because they’re black. They think they’re on average less intelligent, undisciplined, whatever, and that this justifies discriminating against the entirety of black people, treating individuals primarily as a product of their group membership.

                                                        You’re doing the exact same thing, only you think “white people are privileged, they don’t need extra help” instead of “black people are dumb, they shouldn’t get good jobs”. In both cases the vast individual differences are ignored in favor of the superficial criteria of group membership. That is exactly what discrimination is.

                                                        1. 2

                                                          You’re right in that I did assume most white males are well off, and it is a good point that they need help too. However, I still think that the ideas of diversifying the tech industry are a worthy goal, and I think that having a dedicated organization that focuses on only the underrepresented groups is valuable. I just don’t think that white males have the same kind of cultural bias against them in participating in this industry that the demographics that Outreachy have, and counteracting that is Outreachy’s goal. Yes, they are excluding groups, but trying to help a demographic or collection of demographics necessarily excludes the other demographic. How could it work otherwise?

                                                    2. 1

                                                      Why exclude Asians then? Do Asians also already get enough help from their position in society?

                                                      1. 5

                                                        Asians are heavily overrepresented in tech. To be fair, the reason we are overrepresented in tech (as in medicine) is likely because software development (like medicine) is an endeavour that requires expertise in challenging technical knowledge to be successful, which means that (unlike Hollywood) you can’t just stick with white people because there simply aren’t enough of them available to do all the work. So Asians who were shut out of other industries (like theatre) flocked to Tech. Black men are similarly overrepresented in the NBA but unfortunately the market for pro basketball players is a bit smaller than the market for software developers.

                                                        1. 2

                                                          Do they exclude Asians? I must have missed that one. I don’t think excluding that demographic is justified.

                                                          1. 2

                                                            Do they exclude Asians?

                                                            Yes they do. Quoting Outreachy Eligibility Rules:

                                                            You live in the United States or you are a U.S. national or permanent resident living aboard, AND you are a person of any gender who is Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander

                                                            In my opinion, this is carefully worded to exclude Asians without mentioning Asians, even going so far as mentioning Pacific Islander.

                                                    3. 4

                                                      It’s a simple calculus of opprotunity. Allowing those who already have ample opprotunity (i.e. white, cis, males) into Outreachy’s funding defeats the point of specifically targeting those who don’t have as much opprotunity. It wouldn’t do anything to help balance the amount of opprotunity in the world, which is Outreachy’s end goal here.

                                                      It’s the author’s idea that they deserve opprotunity which is the problem. It’s very entitled, and it betrays that the author can’t understand that they are in a priviledged position that prevents them from receiving aid. It’s the same reason the wealthy don’t need tax cuts.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Outreachy’s end goal seems to be balancing the amount of opportunity in the world for all, except for Asian minority.

                                                        1. 4

                                                          Each of us gets to choose between doing good and doing best. The x is the enemy of the y. If Outreachy settles for acting against the worst imbalance (in its view) and leaving the rest that’s just their choosing good over best.

                                                          You’re also confusing their present action with their end goals. Those who choose “best” work directly towards their end goal, but Outreachy is in the “good” camp. By picking a worst part of the problem and working on that part, they implicitly say that their current work might be done and there’ll still be work to do before reaching the end goal.

                                                      2. 4

                                                        What’s not up for debate is that companies or people should be able to give their money however they feel like it.

                                                        That is debatable. But, I too think Outreachy is well within their rights.

                                                      3. 6

                                                        I’m not going to complain about discrimination in that organization since they’re a focused group helping people. It’s debatable whether it should be done differently. I’m glad they’re helping people. I will note that what you just said applies to minority members, too. Quick example.

                                                        While doing mass-market, customer service (First World slavery), I ran an experiment treating everyone in a slightly-positive way with no differences in speech or action based on common events instead of treating them way better than they deserved like we normally did. I operated off a script rotating lines so it wasn’t obvious what I was doing. I did this with different customers in new environment for months. Rather than appreciation, I got more claims of racism, sexism, and ageism then than I ever did at that company. It was clear they didn’t know what equal treatment or meritocracy felt like. So many individuals or companies must have spoiled them that experiencing equality once made them “know” people they interacted with were racist, sexist, etc. There were irritated people among white males but they just demanded better service based on brand. This happened with coworkers in some environments, too, when I came in not being overly selfless. The whites and males just considered me slightly selfish trading favors where a number of non-whites or women suspected it was because they were (insert category here). They stopped thinking that after I started treating them better than other people did and doing more of the work myself. So, it was only “equal” when the white male was doing more of the work, giving more service in one-way relationships, etc.

                                                        I’d love to see a larger study done on that kind of thing to remove any personal or local biases that might have been going on. My current guess is that their beliefs about what racism or sexism are shifted their perceptions to mis-label the events. Unlike me, they clearly don’t go out of their way to look for more possibilities for such things. I can tell you they often did in the general case for other topics. They were smart or open-minded people. Enter politics or religion, the mind becomes more narrow showing people what they want to see. I spent most of my life in that same mental trap. It’s a constant fight to re-examine those beliefs looking at life experiences in different ways.

                                                        So, I’m skeptical when minority members tell me something was about their status because I’ve personally witnessed them miscategorizing so many situations. They did it by default actually any time they encountered provable equality or meritocracy. Truth told, though, most things do mix forms of politics and merit leaning toward politics. I saw them react to a lot of that, too. I’m still skeptical since those situations usually have more political biases going on than just race or gender. I can’t tell without being there or seeing some data eliminating variables what caused whatever they tell me.

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                                                          So, in your anecdotal experience, other people’s anecdotal experience is unreliable? 😘

                                                          1. 5

                                                            You got jokes lol. :) More like I’m collecting this data on many views from each group to test my hypotheses whereas many of my opponents are suppressing alternative views in data collection, in interpretation, and in enforcement. Actually, it seems to be default on all sides to do something like that. Any moderate listening closely to those that disagree looking for evidence of their points is an outlier. Something wrong with that at a fundamental level.

                                                            So, I then brought in my anecdotes to illustrate it given I never see them in opponents’ data or models. They might be wrong with their anecdotes right. I just think their model should include the dissent in their arguments along with reasons it does or doesn’t matter. The existence of dissent by non-haters in minority categories should be a real thing that’s considered.

                                                          2. 3

                                                            I think that the information asymmetry that you had with your anecdotes affected some of the reactions you got. For one, if someone considers your actions negative in some way, they are conditioned by society to assume that you were being prejudiced. If your workplace was one that had more of a negative connotation (perhaps a debt collection service or what have you) that goes double. That’s a reason for the percieved negativity that your white male colleagues didn’t even have to consider, and they concluded that you were just being moderately nice. Notice that you didn’t have to be specifically discriminatory, nor was it necessarily fair. It’s just one more negative thing that happens because prejudice does exist. I would imagine that you would not have so many negative reactions if you explained exactly what you were doing vis-a-vis the randomization of greetings and such. I think I would discount percieved discrimination if someone did that to me.

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                                                          Yes, it’s a ludicrous hissy fit. Especially considering that LLVM began at UIUC which, like many (most? all?) universities, has scholarships which are only awarded to members of underrepresented groups–so he’d have never joined the project in the first place if this were truly a principled stand and not just an excuse to whine about “the social injustice movement.” (I bet this guy thinks it’s really clever to spell Microsoft with a $, too.)

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                                                            That jab “Microsoft with a $” was really uncalled for. You have no evidnece of this. Please stop.

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                                                              The point is a bit bluntly made, but it’s for a reason. There’s a certain kind of internet posting style which uses techniques like changing “social justice movement” to “social injustice movement” to frame the author’s point of view. Once upon a time “Micro$oft” was common in this posting style.

                                                              For extreme cases of this, see RMS’ writing (Kindle=Swindle, etc).

                                                              (The problem with these techniques, IMO, is that they’re never as clever and convincing as the person writing them thinks that they are. Maybe they appeal to some people who already agree with that point of view, but they can turn off anyone else…)

                                                              1. 2

                                                                I think there is a difference here. “Microsoft” is not framing any point of view. “social justice movement”, on the other hand, is already framing certain point of view. I think “social injustice movement” is an acceptable alternative to “so-called social justice movement”, because prefixing “so-called” every time is inconvenient.

                                                          2. 0

                                                            Without more info it seems persecution complex.

                                                          1. 2

                                                            As I understand things, Jon Skeet is the most successful stack overflow user at doing the things stack overflow users press up arrow for. And yet this blog discusses how the stack overflow company want a library of answers to all programming questions, while he has gatekeeper criteria for “good” programming questions.

                                                            It seems there is a disconnect between the goals of the company and the people who press the up arrows.

                                                            [related to the subject but tangential to this blog: there is also a huge opportunity indicated by the stack overflow user survey and here, to cater to the rest of the programmer community who are not young white male gatekeepers with a couple of years of JS experience who hate Perl, asm and ObjC]

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                                                              The disconnect isn’t really there.

                                                              People disagree a bit on exactly what a poor question is, but broadly, if you want a good answer you have to make your question worth the answerer’s time. The answerer’s reaction is the decisive test of whether your question is good. The company might want pageviews for all questions, not just good ones (as judged by the answerer), but everyone involved knows that without good answers pageviews will not be forthcoming. The disconnect is therefore insignificant.

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                                                              Yes, the clang team made a real effort to produce helpful messages about a decade ago. I think there’s still scope for improvement, though, I frequently get errors where the line with the actual error is pointed at by the seventh of twelve messages.

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                                                                the concerns about input on international clients such as those with with diacritic marks are very real. I vividly remember my first time using a *NIX overseas and fighting to get many special characters to work.

                                                                of course, one could argue that few users directly input URLs any more, but I would still avoid almost any even remotely special character. over the decades and dozens of languages through which I have survived, I have seen countless URL [en|de]code implementations that choked on even common punctuation. if it isn’t a slash, it isn’t worth it. (only partly being sarcastic)

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                                                                  I vividly remember my first time using a *NIX overseas and fighting to get many special characters to work.

                                                                  Oh boi, using a *NIX machine without being able to type ~ must be a pain…

                                                                  As far as I’m concerned, the tilde has been part of unix for longer than my whole life, making it a somewhat important character. It can be found on roughly any keyboard (be it easy or not) as well. Multiuser server directories couldn’t have found a better symbol to represent the “home” of a user than the actual symbol representing “home” for the OS of roughly 80% of the web. I guess the point is not to blame that choice for URL, but rather for the OS themselves. Banning a character because it’s hard to tyoe on a keyboard isn’t good imo. But perhaps I’m mistaken and we should consider replacing the “:” with something simpler to express protocol strings ;)

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                                                                    using vim . . . IIRC, even the esc key was mapped oddly. one of the very early reasons I got into micro PCs / early tablets was because Internet cafes abroad were hopeless for for shelling home.

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                                                                      I didn’t mentionned the ‘:’ character because of vi. This article is about characters used in URLs, and you use ‘:’ quite a lot (think protocol/port) for them.

                                                                  2. 1

                                                                    I remember my first time using unix abroad, too. QWERTZ ick. Nowadays it’s simpler. I don’t need strange keyboards, I have my own laptop along and all I need is a WLAN password.

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                                                                    Let’s see. The reasons have to do with Τεχ, with those character encodings that were used before utf8 took over, because it’s difficult to find on an unfamiliar keyboard, because of something to do with Spanish and Portuguese, and because people misprint it. Right? That’s a fair summary?

                                                                    I don’t see any point in using tilde. Home directories on multuuser servers have disappeared.

                                                                    But those are hilariously weak reasons to stop. Τεχ is dead, so are those character encodings, most typing is done on familiar keyboards, if I were to stop doing things because they’re difficult in some other language (even just ones I’ve half-learned for a vacation) I’d have to change both my first and last name, and as for misprints the tilde is a minor detail. Many pages today have more difficult URLs. The URL of the page you’re reading includes the character sequence “dlk8d1” and orgies of “…?…=…&q=…” are normal.

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                                                                      Τεχ is dead

                                                                      … what?

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                                                                        Home directories on multuuser servers have disappeared.

                                                                        The first one has been around for a while, while the last two are sort of new and are attempts of taking the Internet back…

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                                                                          Home directories on multuuser servers have disappeared.

                                                                          IME many university/college sites use this. FWIW my university uses this for course sites (e.g. http://___.ca/~csXXX/)

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                                                                          “Too random” means “inappropriately distributed”.

                                                                          C++’ new library has distributions, and it’s great. If you want randomness that looks like how people’s height varies randomly, with that hump around the average, C++ gives you that, it’s called “normal” (and there are variations of that, yes). If you want randonness that looks like the number of customers entering a shop per minute (or I suppose requests to an API per second, absent crontabs), C++ gives you that, it’s called “poisson” (usually). No need to reinvent 19th century statistics just because you model something that isn’t uniformly distributed.

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                                                                            Low-discrepancy sequences are a different topic than choice of distribution, though I agree people should also pay attention to that question. A low-discrepancy sequence is often a replacement for uniform sampling in cases where you want something more uniform, e.g. you want to draw 50 numbers, but with a high chance of them being fairly evenly spaced, which isn’t a property you get from small-sample draws from a uniform distribution. When you draw a lot of numbers you’ll get something that approaches uniform coverage, but in small samples it’s quite likely you’ll get clumping, which is not a problem if you actually want uniformly random draws (since that’s what they look like!), but can be a problem if you’re really using them as a proxy for something else where coverage matters, like to drive a Monte Carlo algorithm.

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                                                                              (Reply-to-self, because too late to edit.)

                                                                              Upon further thought, a better way of putting this might be the other way around (i.e. not the way this post’s title puts it). You can view low-discrepancy sequences as being not for when random numbers are too random, but for when a uniform (non-random) grid is too uniform. For example, if you use the uniform grid [0, 5, 10, 15 .. 100] to run some kind of algorithm on the interval [0 .. 100] without running it at every point, you have a bunch of weird regularities to it, like every single number you picked happening to be divisible by 5, which is not really representative of the overall properties of the interval [0 ..100]. But if you instead sample [0 ..100] randomly, you do get nicely random statistics of every kind, but a good likelihood of bad coverage of the interval due to clumping. So the goal is to come up with a deterministic sequence with good coverage that nonetheless “looks” random.

                                                                              In a sense this is saying the same thing, that we magically want some of the properties of both a uniform grid and uniformly-random sampling. But putting it this way sides towards saying this is a specially chosen type of grid that tries to minimize spurious regularities (like every number being divisible by 5), rather than a special type of random sampling.

                                                                            2. 1

                                                                              I agree with your comment - what the author is looking for is less variance in what ever they generate. So a fast, pragmatic way, would be to take a uniform grid of whatever dimensionality then add a gaussian jitter around points on that grid.

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                                                                              Consumers buy devices based on features and buzzwords and little icons on the packaging. A wifi radio costs pennies and scarcely more than 1mm³. Says the salesman: “Well, this one supports Wifi and DLNA so you can use it as a controller for lots of smart TVs, and this other one does not”.

                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                I run several sites on wholly unremarkable hardware. As in, rails on the cheapest I could possibly find. As long as you have a cache in front (apache mod_cache, nginx or varnish) and your backend produces a Cache-Control header, your software will handle ~all load peaks. High traffic level involves repeated requests and the cache takes care of precisely those.

                                                                                So my answer is: Just add a cache, make sure your pages are cache-friendly, then stop worrying about this. Worry about the content instead.

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                                                                                  There’s a story about this, from the lavalamp shop, where there’s a configuration file for services that says “this needs x gigabytes of ram and benefits from being on the same switch as shard y of service z”. The needs can be quite complicated, so the configuration language eventually grew turing complete.

                                                                                  From that point you could do anything in the cloud in order to determine where in the cloud to do anything. Very powerful, but when you think about it, do you prefer something optimal or something suboptimal and understandable?

                                                                                  The same issue comes up in many other guises. Do you prefer a programming language that lets you do anything, or one where the compiler can reason about the code? Pointer aliases in C is a classic case, but configuration files too are useful objects of reasoning. I once wrote a great feature that reasoned about the configuration file before restarting a service and would say “the service will go down and not restart, because during startup, suchandsuch”. It was very useful, and it was doable precisely because the configuration file was not turing complete.

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                                                                                    Here’s a non-Turing-complete programming language designed for configuration: http://www.haskellforall.com/2016/12/dhall-non-turing-complete-configuration.html

                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                      Interesting, yes, absolutely.

                                                                                      But I see that reasoning about it requires evaluating it. If the reason for wanting a programming language is that you can access a cloud service to decide how good each candidate node is for running your own service, then you can only reason about the file’s result at this time and place, not about the configuration file in general.

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                                                                                    So I’ve been encouraging people to switch to thinkpads.. but since they’ve gone off trying to replicate the Macbook, what hardware do people recommend?

                                                                                    The T460 I think is probably going to be my last thinkpad if they stay going this “no FRU” path.

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                                                                                      People have been recommending Dell XPS to me. I held one for a moment, it felt decent.

                                                                                      1. 5

                                                                                        The issue for me with the XPS is that they don’t offer a non-touchscreen version with 16gb Ram (stuck at 8gb).

                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                          The XPS 13 is an excellent piece of hardware, better than any available MacBook.

                                                                                          1. 4

                                                                                            Provided you’re comparing to the 13" macbooks.

                                                                                            The current selection in 10-11" laptops is disgraceful. I can’t find anything that has enough RAM and won’t tip backwards, other than the macbook air and macbook 2015.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              Does it support 16GB of RAM?

                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                Yup! And there’s a version that comes from the factory running Ubuntu because it’s part of Dell’s Project Sputnik.

                                                                                            2. 2

                                                                                              It’s pretty nice, barring some really annoying design decisions:

                                                                                              • power button glows really brightly
                                                                                              • the laptop-connecting end of the power cord has a blinding white LED all around it
                                                                                              • there’s a huge light on the side of the laptop (facing you) that glows with the light of a thousand suns whenever it’s charging
                                                                                            3. 4

                                                                                              I personally don’t think there has been a great ThinkPad since the T61 (2007). I used mine until late 2013 when I got a MacBook.

                                                                                              I wish they kept the legacy going, those were some truly beautiful laptops.

                                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                                I’ve been really happy with my Surface Book. Wonderful screen, touch is one of those little things that you don’t use much but it makes them better when you do (likewise the pen for signing PDF forms), keyboard feels great to me (but I like a light touch and short travel, others may disagree), first-party dock is immensely practical, battery life is plenty, other specs are good enough.

                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                  Do you run Linux on the Surface Book? Did you try to run OpenBSD?

                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                    No. Was planning to try FreeBSD on it but then I found WSL worked really well for what I needed and I couldn’t be bothered. There’s a community on reddit (SurfaceLinux) and I’ve heard some positive things, but don’t know the details.

                                                                                                2. 2

                                                                                                  HP Spectre 13 came out as my vote of choice recently. Very happy with it. Best keyboard I’ve had in years, and it’s blooming quick too.

                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                    I don’t think the problem is the hardware. There is lots of great PC hardware out there. Maybe not comparable on build quality, trackpad, and battery, but hardware that has other things going for it.

                                                                                                    The problem is that there is no desktop OS that compares to macOS. This is especially true for laptops.

                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                      I use mac os for work and windows 10 at home. I really don’t see any real difference beyond user preference.

                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                        What about user experience, intuitive interface and general better design?

                                                                                                        I don’t use windows but I help a fair lot with their windows machines, and nothing feels smooth, intuitive. The only thing I like is the combined menubar+dock. I loathe the macOS dock.

                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                          I don’t think anything about windows is unintuitive. Windows acts largely like it has forever (aside from the Windows 8 start menu/metro thing). There’s nothing difficult about it. The macOS dock is bad, and I also think the launchpad is terrible. Finder is slower on my 2015 mbp (512gb/16gb/i7) than Cortana/search is on my Windows 10 desktop (512gb/8gb/i5). Not very much, but it’s noticeable. Both of them are SSDs.

                                                                                                          General better design is completely subjective. I happen to prefer Windows 10 looks to macos. Different strokes!

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                                                                                                    I have an old router and a Soekris 4501.

                                                                                                    Moving tens of megabits per second was common twenty years ago and still is today; I retired the router a week or two ago after (much?) more than a decade of service. A decade of not having to reconfigure… I love that.

                                                                                                    The 4501 (partly by chance, partly by design) is a marvellous time server. Accurate and reliable time keeping requires the NTP server to have a good model of the hardware it’s running on, and the Soekris boxes have very simple, easily comprehensible hardware, and a correspondingly simple bios. And then some luck with the choice of… I think it was the main crystal.

                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                      Curious what routing performance did you get out of your Soekris net4501? Did you do NAT too? I have a Soekris net6501 that I use a file server, but it’s way too slow for that, so I was thinking of repurposing it as a router. But I am not sure it can manage 250+50 Mbps.

                                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                                        I’m not using that net4501 as a router. The 6501 should route 300Mbps easily unless your idea of a router is something whose main job is something other than routing packets.

                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                          Good to know, if it’s good enough I will probably buy another 6501 to do a CARP configuration under OpenBSD.

                                                                                                      2. 1

                                                                                                        You didn’t say what kind of old router you had that lasted a decade without reconfiguration. I don’t mess with enough routers to know whether that’s normal. Was the uptime similarly good?

                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                          It’s reasonably normal. Good routers are built for longevity. Router manufacturers don’t squeeze the last MHz out of the CPU clock, they choose long lifetime, AKA low probability of breaking while deployed a long way away from the closest pair of hands.

                                                                                                          In this case a Mikrotik. I have a Ciso that may be approaching the same age, but I don’t use that for production any more.

                                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                                            Makes sense. Still appreciate the mention of Mikrotik since I hadn’t heard of them. Surprising given the financials and market share they have. I’m putting them on the list of companies to try to talk into doing a secure, open-source router. The low cost of living there could help with the labor side of such a project.

                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                        There are quite a few widely used projects on Github, Rails comes to mind. I can believe that few people who write ruby have participated in rails development, or another major gem, but not seen a successful project?

                                                                                                        1. 9

                                                                                                          The vast majority of programmers never contribute to an open-source project, or even program at all outside their jobs.

                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                            Maybe I’m unusual, but I run into bugs… if I use rails, I end up looking at pages like https://github.com/turbolinks/turbolinks-classic/issues/665 even if I have no intention of ever contributing to that project, so I certainly see how a successful project handles issues.

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                                                                                                          Linus is saying: Make the happy path the only path whenever you can, that way you have only one path to think about and to test. Each if() increases the number of paths through the function.

                                                                                                          He’s also saying a little more, but that’s the core, and it’s not subjective: Count the number of paths through a function, low is good. Now, some 4s may be better than other 4s and then you have to discuss subjectively, but that issue happens seldom. Usually you’re looking at 2 vs 12 or something else crude.

                                                                                                          Those who like this kind of thing might want to reread Christopher Seiwald’s https://www.perforce.com/resources/seven-pillars-pretty-code — the “fight changes of indentation” bit is excellent advice and generally leads to few paths through the function, and the “exceptions to the top” shortens many of the paths that cannot be eliminated.

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                                                                                                            Thanks for that link, it’s helpful!

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                                                                                                            I read books by turning off the things that can interrupt me. At home I put the children to bed and do not own a TV, in the office I have a reading chair positioned such that I cannot see the screens. I choose what to concentrate on, see?

                                                                                                            The benefits of e-books are such that… in effect you haven’t read a book in years?

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                                                                                                              I invoice for things I wouldn’t have bought on my own accord, or didn’t want to buy. Do not invoice for my office (which is in what used to be the neighbour flat in my case).

                                                                                                              In short: If I want to buy it and keep it if I quit, I pay. If I don’t but someone at work says to buy, I invoice.

                                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                                You don’t need a meeting room with AV, but you do need something better than laptop microphones. A minimac or laptop with a Jabra microphone is good. You may find it helpful to put a minimac near the coffee machine or in the spot where you’d typically run your standups (at standup height, perhaps). If the remotes can call in and the box autoanswers, that may be good. If you can see the team, you can also see who’s not there, and that’s a great deal better than bothering people in IRC with questions like “can you look and see if Kim is in the office?”

                                                                                                                Make sure to start on time. Same time each day, not a minute before or after. Starting ten minutes late is OK when you can see the team anyway, but the remotes will sit on their thumbs waiting and you as team lead won’t notice that you’re irritating part of the team. Having the standup box autoanswer when a remote calls in helps with that.

                                                                                                                Watch out for people who mumble too far from the microphone. It’s not necessary to hold the microphone, but mumbling five meters away won’t do.

                                                                                                                Be prepared to tweak.

                                                                                                                Jabber chat rooms save messages in the manner you want, but client support is scarce. YMMV.