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    maybe unpopular: i can read and write pretty much anything more easy than yaml. especially things which are braced like json or have similar open/close tags like.. apache config?

    even more unpopular: and i can use tabs for indentation with these formats! the character invented for indenting things! my editor from before i was born can display tabs with a width i like!

    back to topic: i think a small tcl would be a real good local optimum for configuration files. cf. Tcl the Misunderstood.

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      Just to be pedantic, weren’t tabs intended for tabulation, rather than code indentation?

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        TSV best SV.

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          Let me introduce you to my friends in the ASCII table: 0x1c-0x1f; file, group, record and unit separator. Woefully underused.

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            Woefully underused.

            For good reason. They are poorly supported by almost all tooling, and they don’t rigorously solve any additional problems over tabs (or any other delimiter).

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              That sounds pretty cool. While not superior to TSV due to tooling, it’s still very nice to have explicit characters toward this end. It would be cool to have something like \fs \gs \rs \us as a way to type them. Even if just supported by a editor extension. I will say, in response to @burntsushi I think they do solve certain problems over tabs, most notably the ability to specify many tables in a file, and many “files” within a file. It also means one could have tabs, whitespace, etcetera without needing to escape it. If I could open up a single document that represents many text files transparently as many text files in my editor, that would be a pretty cool feature. Similarly I do think being able to represent many “sheets” in a csv is also probably very useful. What would this format be called? If it doesn’t already have a name I think “.dsv” is probably not a bad one, I’m also fond of “.gru” or “.gruf” . Sounds like a fun weekend project to make an extension that handles these gracefully, and has a “save as csv/tsv/etc”.

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                It also means one could have tabs, whitespace, etcetera without needing to escape it.

                Right, but you then need to escape whatever delimiter you’re using, unless you ban it from being used. That’s kind of what I was getting at.

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                  I think the whole idea of file, group, record, unit delimiter characters is as delimiters. The common use of comma and tab as punctuation characters means that we will have to escape them regularly. It’s much easier to ban the use of characters that are unused for any language construct.

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                    Yes, I understand the concept behind them. If you can really get away with banning them completely, then sure, they can solve a problem nicely that tabs/commas probably can’t (modulo the fact that tooling sucks for them). But personally, I’d be surprised if you could get away with such a ban. If you have to implement escaping even in some cases, then it pretty much drags everything down with it. Escaping is pretty much the only reason why CSV parsing is as complex as it is, and more than that, tends to put a cap on performance (depending on your parsing architecture).

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                      Why would you be surprised if I could “get away with such a ban”. We can do so by edict, and if you can’t handle it then use some other format. If you are storing \fs \gs \rs \us then it’s not the format for you. If you strip out these control codes, then this is indeed the format for you.

                      It looks like there’s already a precedence for how to type these.

                      ctrl-\ File
                      ctrl-] Group
                      ctrl-^ Record
                      ctrl-_ Unit
                      
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                        Because we are collectively (including myself) very bad at saying “No,” especially when someone comes to you with a valid use case.

                        I’m not really interested in discussing this further. Bottom line is if you can get away with that ban, then great. Your point stands. There’s really no point in debating why I personally would be surprised if you could.

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                          The statement just sounded like you had an example case in mind. I was hoping you were holding out talking about it because it takes effort to describe. Nebulous fears are valid. Often there are unknowns, I just thought you had something concrete in mind.

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                            Ah gotya. Yes, mostly nebulous at this point.

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        What does this mean? 4.2.1 is a very old version of GCC (apparently released in 2007), what purpose did it still serve? Does this have any impact on current GCC versions?

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          GCC 4.2.1 is still used as the compiler for some tier-2/tier-3 CPU architectures like mips or sparc64. These will need to migrate to Clang, to external GCC from ports, or be removed from the tree.

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            In addition, I believe the reason they stuck with 4.2 in particular is because it’s the last version of GCC where the whole project is licensed under GPLv2, with the additional restrictions of v3 being considered unacceptable. (Note in the Android Honeycomb source tree that 4.3 and 4.4 have a COPYING3 which 4.2 does not)

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          Is there any source for this? We’re using Layer’s API at my workplace and we’ve not heard anything on this. Their website says nothing and there’s no sources except this article. Even on Twitter the only person posting about it is the author of this article (who works for a direct competitor).

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            Did you ever find out whether this is legit?

            One thing to note is that the author says Layer is only shutting down Layer Chat. But the way the email is phrased, it sounds like all of Layer is being shut down. It’s a strange post.

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              No, I’ve not found anything to corroborate this so far.

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                ~ tschellenbach just now | link | edit | delete | reply Author here, I received a notification about this from one of our customers who switched from Layer to Stream. I’ve since had a conversation with Layer to confirm.

                Yup it’s real

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                Separate followup update: We had this confirmed to us today - apparently they missed us before.

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                Author here, I received a notification about this from one of our customers who switched from Layer to Stream. I’ve since had a conversation with Layer to confirm.

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                We’re currently transitioning to https://notion.so as our single source of truth on these things. It’s not perfect, but it’s discovery and collaboration is must better than Confluence or GDocs, from experience. This is from the perspective of a small engineering team, though.

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                  That looks somewhat neat, but it looks like it has no Linux support and no web interface?

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                    Ah, I can see how you would get that impression from the landing page, but it does in fact have a web interface and I mostly just use it from the browser so that should solve the Linux support issue as well.

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                      It’s fully usable through a web browser, but there’s no Linux client, no.

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                        The native clients are basically web views. The web interface is what I use most of the time.

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                          It’s definitely web based and in browser, the desktop apps are just Electron wrappers. I think there may be an unofficial Linux Electron wrapper too (if you are willing to add to your collection)

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                          Thanks for the link. Definitely going to check it out!