1. 2

    They subjected us to multiple, malicious, targeted >DDoS (Distributed Denial-of-Service)

    As opposed to the benign, sprinkled here-and-there variety.

    1. 2

      To be honest, if we ran a poll on how many people here have DDoSed their ownservers, services, databases or similar, I can guarantee you the result is above zero. I can’t guarantee of its above 1, but I suspect it might be true.

      But you’re right, parts of that sentence only serve to raise the drama effect.

      1. 2

        Oh yes, certainly. I’d bet it’s over 1 by a bit. It’s basically just a form of load testing. That’s definitely still targeted though haha! I suppose a non-targeted variety could be some kid got his hands on a LOIC and decided to just DDoS some random person. Also it could also maybe be considered apathetic or nihilistic rather than malicious in that case.

    1. 2

      Wait, how is it published by Google Docs?

      1. 2

        File > Publish to the web

        1. 1

          WHAT???

          1. 2

            Does that mean you’re pleasantly surprised?

            1. 1

              I just didn’t know that. That’s crazy. I suppose I never had a reason to investigate that functionality.

      1. 2

        Then explain male college students. Checkmate atheists.

        1. 1

          Joke’s on you, my code is carbon neutral.

          1. 1

            Oh my gooooooood can someone copyright this article title so people can’t use it anymore?

            1. 23

              Spoiler: the article never directly answers the clickbait question in the title. The article starts with an overview of the problems with Zig’s competitors, then describes various features of Zig. The conclusion of the article is just (paraphrasing) “this article is getting long so I’ll write more about Zig later.”

              1. 31

                That’s technically true, but I would say that this is one of the best articles about programming languages I’ve seen on lobste.rs in a few weeks or months.

                The author demonstrably has experience with C, C++, Swift, Objective C, and Julia, and the ZIg content is quite clearly explained. Better than I’ve seen elsewhere.

                So yes the title has the style of clickbait , but the content is actually good.

                1. 6

                  I agree. Was really nice to see a comparison of all those languages in one place and it generally resonates with me.

                  I’d love to see some more examples of what the author finds doesn’t “click” with him in Swift though. I really enjoy the language and find it a pity Apple just focused on iOS development.

                2. 12

                  I once read somewhere that every headline on articles in print and the internet can be answered with “no” and then you’ve saved yourself a click and a clickbaity article. Applies here as well, next to being on stupid medium.com it’s also not saying much. Lots of words though, not much content.

                  1. 17
                    1. 3

                      Would I have ever remembered that law’s name if you didn’t tell me? ;)

                      Anyway, I find it hard to take an article about a C replacement seriously when half the “replacements” it mentions use mandatory garbage collection, and the article doesn’t mention Ada, which is actually used in production, in roles where C is otherwise uncontested, i.e. OS kernels and embedded.

                    2. 9

                      The question you want to ask yourself is, “Is Betteridge’s Law of Headlines universally correct?” The answer may shock you! Sensitive readers are advised to turn away now.

                      Answer is “not quite”. If nothing else because sometimes ad copy starts with a heading like “Is there anything better than Coldbutt™️ branded butt flavoured toothpaste? Our toothpaste flavor exists weigh in.”

                    3. 7

                      Compared to a lot of the recent thinly-veiled Rust promotional posts, I think this has equal if not more substance.

                      1. 4

                        Ugh. I wish Lobsters had a flag-topic for clickbait.

                        1. 14

                          The title is clickbait-ish, but the content is good… I wouldn’t flag this one.

                          1. 4

                            Spam is probably the closest flag option

                            1. 13

                              The article is very clearly not spam, so that would be misusing it.

                              1. 1

                                spam being misused for this article is implied by virtue of it being the “closest flag option” and not actually the flag they want to use (because clickbait isn’t an option)

                          2. 1

                            I was about to say, can this article’s title be any more clickbaity? Will Zig also increase my girth my 2 inches??

                          1. 7

                            I really like this. Also your website is beautiful and the illustrations are adorable.

                            1. 8

                              Are we being trolled?

                              Security is war. The major powers and a few belligerent other state actors have been engaged in an undeclared world “cyber” war for about 25 years now, and it shows no signs of going away.

                              1. 4

                                I have had similar thoughts to the author. It actually really bothers me how much military language there is in Cyber. Derek running Splunk queries for a small insurance company is not a cyber warrior who has been fighting a proxy war with China for 15 years. I feel that the military language needs to be left to the actual military and intelligence community. To me it feels like a bunch of nerds wanting to play soldier otherwise.

                                1. 1

                                  I think the author might be holding out bait to entice the enemy, so to speak.

                                1. 3

                                  I think this is less a compilers thing and more of a law thing. And programming is just redundant.

                                  1. 2

                                    Good idea, I changed the tags to law.

                                    1. 5

                                      Why law? Zen seems to be following the letter and the spirit of Zig’s MIT license.

                                      1. 5

                                        The law tag encompasses “Law, patents, and licensing”.

                                        1. 3

                                          Dude, stop. You are basically starting arguments based on a misunderstanding of the linked article.

                                    1. 6

                                      I think it’s too soon to be picking a language to replace C. Sure it could do with replacing, but the field is advancing incredibly quickly at the moment: With time, my money would be on Zig as the generally preferred successor, over Rust.

                                      1. 6

                                        I’d prefer something now instead of waiting another five years. I’m perfectly happy with something good. instead of something perfect. There are infrastructure adoption effects to think about.

                                        (I would have preferred a C replacement in the early 00s, but the technology just wasn’t there yet.)

                                        1. 5

                                          The problem is that the would-be alternatives are constantly changing making adoption potentially more costly, where as C is largely unchanged since C99.

                                          1. 4

                                            The technology was there back then, but nobody bothered to make a production quality tool out of it. Which just reinforces your point about choosing something now to take this out of academia.

                                            I’m not that hot about rust myself (c++ level complexity in places, and the sigil soup doesn’t help), but the cambrian explosion in tools recently only means that people will get used to using different tools in the same project.

                                            1. 4

                                              Ada was in production at the time.

                                              1. 1

                                                But not with a great open source story, unfortunately.

                                                1. 1

                                                  That’s true. Many were paying for IDE’s and compilers, though. So, it was there at least for them.

                                              2. 1

                                                I’m sorry if this is an ignorant question, but what is sigil soup?

                                                1. 2

                                                  It’s not an ignorant question :-)

                                                  Sigils: “magic” symbols.

                                                  Sigil soup: lots of sigils, for example (randomly picked from somewhere on the web):

                                                  struct Sub<'a> {
                                                      name: &'a str
                                                  }
                                                  

                                                  There’s lots of stuff going on in that short snippet that is signified by such “magic symbols” (&? ‘? &’?). Contrast that to Ada whose most curious syntactical feature is probably the Type’Attribute syntax while everything else is spelled out in rather verbose and easy to follow language. (although the Ada 2012 expression functions aren’t really helping readability either, in my opinion)

                                                  1. 1

                                                    What’s “magic” here? Verbose? Yes. Magic? No. It would be entirely possible to allow this as

                                                    struct Sub {
                                                        name: &str
                                                    }
                                                    

                                                    (and indeed, in some function signatures, the 'a can be elided)

                                                    But that would lead to the introduction of an implicit generic parameter (anonymous lifetime), making diagnostics quite a bit harder. The current situation is clear: Sub has a lifetime that is bound to the lifetime of the reference in “name”.

                                                    Indeed, the change was discussed, but we decided to keep it clear when a structure is one where the borrowing rules apply. In the current version, all you need to look at is the structure generic parameters, otherwise, you’d have to look at every parameter.

                                                    Considering that structs with private fields are notated as:

                                                    struct Sub<'a> {
                                                      // fields hidden
                                                    }
                                                    

                                                    In the docs, this also allows for better visibility there.

                                            2. 8

                                              With time, my money would be on Zig as the generally preferred successor, over Rust.

                                              But Zig does nothing about memory safety, so I don’t see it as a step up the same way I do Rust.

                                              1. 4

                                                D has already claimed the throne.

                                                1. 6

                                                  I’m waiting for Pony to get a Better Horse mode.

                                                  1. 3

                                                    Is that a giraffe, or an OCaml?

                                                    1. 2

                                                      A Giraffe, OCaml is better Perl.

                                                  2. 1

                                                    Does anyone want to use it, though?

                                                    1. 11

                                                      To butcher the Bjarne quote, there are only two kinds of languages: the ones nobody wants to use, and the ones nobody wants to use.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Nice!

                                                  3. 1

                                                    Interesting re your statement. How come? Why Zig? Why not ATSlang?

                                                    1. 3

                                                      Zig was just the first language that came to mind as a C successor. Simplicity is somewhat key. ATS would be a completely different direction and equally as valid.

                                                  1. 7

                                                    I feel like adding the logging and tests makes this borderline unreadable and crowded looking. I might just be dumb though.

                                                    1. 92

                                                      In light of all of these problems, I’ll take my segfaults and buffer overflows

                                                      but I won’t take your buffer overflows. I have spent enough time with emergency security patching RCEs left by C programmers who were “good enough” not to need a memory-safe language.

                                                      1. 10

                                                        “I have the best taxi service in town because my car is so fast! Yeah, it has no seat belts, but don’t worry — I’m a very safe driver.”

                                                        1. 1

                                                          This is a beautiful way to put that.

                                                        2. 7

                                                          I was thinking about this actually. I was pretty sure that those were security issues rather than just annoying. Maybe he doesn’t mean for the finished product? I hope that’s what he means.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            I’m sure he meant that, but it is still very unlikely that he or anyone else will iron out all segfaults and buffer overflows.

                                                        1. 2

                                                          After reading the article and all the comments I think I’ve realized why Drew maybe wrote this: other than hating Rust, that is. I have a feeling a ton of people have been asking him if he is going to start rewriting things in Rust and he’s getting really tired of it.

                                                          1. 25

                                                            I mostly agree with specifics, which boil down to “Rust is immature”. I disagree overall, because I believe Rust will be mature in the future. Rust will be portable, will have a spec, will have competing implementations, will have stable ABI (which will be better than C ABI), etc.

                                                            I specifically object to “attempts to integrate Cargo with other build systems have been met with hostility from the Rust & Cargo teams”. I (and I believe other Rust & Cargo contributors) am painfully aware of the problem and we are trying hard to integrate with external build systems. Cargo’s so called “build plan” mode is already implemented, and I believe this problem will be solved by 2020.

                                                            1. 3

                                                              The point Drew is trying to make I think is still fair. You are using the future tense when you say Rust will have those things; the point is that it doesn’t have them now. Who knows maybe when they do Drew will change his mind.

                                                            1. 2

                                                              I’ve been thinking about at least every other month. I’ve been eagerly awaiting this since I saw the original announcement a few years ago. I really hope they respond to you.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                Is the store of this post using a picture of Terry Davis as his profile pick, or does he just look a lot like him?