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    This advice should be expanded. Do not under any circumstance use any kind of 3rd party VPN at all.

    1. 4

      VPNs are this decade’s antivirus.

      1. 2

        This advice is hyperbolic…. there are tons of valid uses for a 3rd party VPN. For example, I use a 3rd party VPN to torrent over networks that punish me for doing so (LTE, university WiFi).

        1. 1

          OK… this is not very helpful advice. But, if you have something constructive to say on the subject, I’d like to hear it!

          I don’t suppose you’re saying that you should just trust your ISP.

          Perhaps you’re saying that you should set up and maintain your own VPN? Do you have any helpful resources to suggest for those of us who might want to do that? Because I can imagine a few ways to get that wrong too.

          But perhaps more to the point, what do you suggest for less technical people who are concerned about their privacy, or those who don’t want to maintain that much infrastructure?

          1. 3

            I don’t suppose you’re saying that you should just trust your ISP.

            If you’re using a VPN service, that’s exactly what you’re doing - just trusting the VPN operator.

            But perhaps more to the point, what do you suggest for less technical people who are concerned about their privacy, or those who don’t want to maintain that much infrastructure?

            “If you’re telling people not to buy these rocks, what do you suggest for people who are concerned about keeping tigers away and can’t afford fences and guns?”

            If you genuinely need to access the internet without being tracked, you need to put the legwork in and use Tor; this is not something you can afford to trust someone else to do for you (though there are bundled installers etc. that can make it slightly easier).

            1. 2

              Sometimes I trust my VPN operator more than my ISP. Thus using the VPN is nicer

              Example cases:

              • being in China
              • airport wifi
              1. 1

                Using tor for many tasks is no harder than a vpn anyway

              2. 3

                There was another blog post not too long ago about not using VPNs. This article does state all the reasons to use a VPN: protect your from your ISP and protect your location data.

                However a VPN isn’t TOR. They can still keep logs on the VPN side and turn them over to police, even in other countries. It has a limited use and people need to understand what those uses are. Too many people use it without understand what VPNs do and don’t do (similar to the confusion around Private Window browsing .. even though there’s a clear wall of text describing the limitations, most people don’t read it).

              3. 1

                I’d argue that pretty much anyone who reads this site has the wherewithal to set up their own VPN. Check out Streissand or Algo

              1. 3

                Right now I’m on Foundation 5, but I’d like to eventually replace it with just plain CSS Grid. CSS Grid is supported in almost every major browser now and seems like a really amazing spec.

                1. 6

                  There are a number of issues with these ideas but there are two I want to draw attention to in specific.

                  All byte spans are available to any user with a proper address. However, they may be encrypted, and access control can be performed via the distribution of keys for decrypting the content at particular permanent addresses.

                  While perpetually tempting, security through encryption keys has the major drawback that it is non-revocable (you can’t remove access once it’s been granted). As a result, over time it inevitably fails open; the keys leak and more and more people have access until everyone does. This is a major drawback of any security system based only on knowledge of some secret; we’ve seen it with NFS filehandles and we’ve seen it with capabilities, among others. Useful security/access control systems must cope with secrets leaking and people changing their minds about who is allowed access. Otherwise you should leave all access control out and admit honestly that all content is (eventually) public, instead of tacitly misleading people.

                  […] Any application that has downloaded a piece of content serves that content to peers.

                  People will object to this, quite strongly and rightfully so. Part of the freedom of your machine belonging to you is the ability to choose what it does and does not do. Simply because you have looked at a piece of content does not mean that you want to use your resources to provide that content to other people.

                  1. 1

                    Any application that has downloaded a piece of content serves that content to peers.

                    The other issue with this is what if the content is illegal? (classified government information, child abuse, leaked personal health records, etc.) There are some frameworks like Zeronet where you can chose to stop serving that content, and others like FreeNet where yo don’t even know if you’re serving that content. (These come with a speed vs anonymity trade-off of course).

                    I do agree with the idea that any content you fetch, you should reserve by default, maybe with some type of blockchain voting system to pass information along to all the peers if some of the content might be questionable, giving the user a chance to delete it.

                  1. 4

                    I wrote about the feeling of being trapped in a cube years ago:

                    http://khanism.org/perspective/trapped-in-the-cubical/

                    I ended up getting a holiday work visa for Australia and New Zealand, so I could do the same boring shit I did in America, but in a new exotic country. I then learned to take a year off at a time doing my own stuff:

                    http://penguindreams.org/blog/leaving-full-time-jobs/

                    http://penguindreams.org/videos/taking-a-sabbatical/

                    And here’s some stuff documenting my car trip around the US and my backpacking trip through Asia/Europe:

                    http://khanism.org/perspective/a-tale-of-two-journeys/

                    http://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/

                    Now I’m trying to find a job again and it is .. difficult. I think if I was out on the west coast it’d be easier. It’s more acceptable in startup capitals (Seattle and the Valley) to take off and do your own thing every once in a while, have a failed startup idea or two. In Chicago, not so much. I’m planning a blog post on different IT cultures by city.

                    If you’re under 30, see if your country has holiday work visa agreements and get one. They’re usually cheap (like $300) and let you live and work in other countries for a year (typically).

                    Honestly I am currently just trying to get a job and save up. I don’t ever want to take off again without a place to jump to. I’ve done that twice and getting off the road can be nerve racking. If I quit my job again, it will either be if I get accepted in a PhD program or if I get another Australian visa and move back to Melbourne (my favourite city in the world so far).

                    1. 2

                      “ In Chicago, not so much. I’m planning a blog post on different IT cultures by city.”

                      Id like to see a lot of writeups like that. At least one per city but preferrably a bunch in case report is too biases by one author’s experiences. Might be an outlier, you know.

                    1. 10

                      Huh. I didn’t realize Java is going the Firefox/Chrome model of releases.

                      Overall if you have good unit tests in your software, this shouldn’t be a big deal. Update to Java x, run sbt test or gradel test or whatever, update your test-running CI container to java x, let it run there, update your production Dockerfiles to java x, deploy and check your integration tests.

                      Oh you don’t have a lot of unit tests? .. wait, you don’t have any unit tests?! … Well it will probably just work .. have fun!

                      1. 5

                        I don’t think it’s that straightforward for everyone. It’s hard to measure the performance impact of changes to the JVM, as well as potential obscure bugs, from just unit testing. I think most big deployments and libraries will stick to LTS releases as a result, which isn’t that bad given it’s about the old pace of updates anyway.

                        1. 6

                          To support this point, for a specific example of a more obscure change in a JDK that caused programs to fail, see http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/8u20-relnotes-2257729.html - it’s a long list but note this

                          Collection.sort defers now defers to List.sort

                          Previously Collection.sort copied the elements of the list to sort into an array, sorted that array, then updated list, in place, with those elements in the array, and the default method List.sort deferred to Collection.sort. This was a non-optimal arrangement.

                          The consequence of changing to sorting in place (the optimal arrangement), is that programs which sorted in one thread and concurrently iterated in another are more likely to crash with this JVM than previously. Might be hard to test for that even in an integration test!

                          Unit testing is dangerous because it gives inexperienced coders false confidence that changes are good.

                        2. 2

                          Huh. I didn’t realize Java is going the Firefox/Chrome model of releases.

                          Well, at least Firefox has train releases + a long term release. Java doesn’t seem to have that.

                          1. 11

                            Didn’t the article mention Java 8 being a long term release?

                            1. 13

                              Yes, Java has LTS releases, currently 8 and then 11. http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/eol-135779.html

                              1. 4

                                Ah, sorry, I had missed the precise scheme. I thought 8 was LTS, as it was the last “old-fashioned” release.

                                1. 1

                                  Note that Red Hat will support OpenJDK 8 after Oracle discontinues their support as they have with previous releases in the past; they commit to it up to October 2020: https://access.redhat.com/articles/1299013

                          1. 8

                            These kinds of posts tend to take one out of two stances on ‘network transparency’ depending on what the author actually wants to attack, and if there is a reference to the “standup over substance” Daniel Stone talk on X11 vs Wayland - you can be sure it will be the ‘haha, X isn’t actually transparent’ one, followed by perplexed users saying that it is actually very useful to them. The reddit thread referencing this article is one such example.

                            The first camp talking about the drawing primitives and commands as such and saying that the actual drawing commands should be sent and treated locally in the same way as they are treated remotely and since the toolkits have all made data type and parameters opaque pixmaps, opaque transfers are needed.

                            The ‘my use experience’ camp talks about the convenience in just saying ‘run graphics program’ from a remote shell and it seem to appear on the local machine similarly enough to how it would behave had it actually been run locally. That’s the meaning of transparency to them.

                            The later perspective is, in my opinion, more interesting since it can be improved on in many more ways than just switching compression schemes. Incidentally, I might just have something for that in the works…

                            1. 3

                              Most basic applications work fine with X11 forwarding. Stone’s talk stating X isn’t transparent is really referring to specific use cases (direct rendering and opengl), which, of course, isn’t going to work over the network.

                              I agree with his talk that we need to move forward from X, but you can’t just hand wave away a lot of features that people currently use. Usability matters. It took Pulseaudio a long time to get to a usable state where it’s not the first thing I try to disable (I think it works pretty well now, especially with bluetooth devices). Systemd is still terrible in terms of its usability with its terrible CLI interface.

                              1. 4

                                tone’s talk stating X isn’t transparent is really referring to specific use cases (direct rendering and opengl), which, of course, isn’t going to work over the network.

                                Gaming over the network has been around for some time. Some products were around before the cloud became a thing. These days, some are doing gaming desktops and rendering workstations with cloud VM’s. Probably more like X is an outdated design being made to do things in totally different context it can’t handle.

                                1. 2

                                  specific use cases (direct rendering and opengl), which, of course, isn’t going to work over the network.

                                  Couldn’t OpenGL, at least, be made to work over a network? It’s just commands which have larger effects; I’d think some sort of binary protocol could transmit it fairly effectively.

                              1. 9

                                This is a bold statement, I do quite a bit of ssh -X work, even thousands of miles distant from the server. I do very much wish ssh -X could forward sound somehow, but I certainly couldn’t live without X’s network transparency.

                                1. 6

                                  Curious, what do you use it for? Every time I tried it, the experience was pain-stakingly slow.

                                  1. 7

                                    I find it okay for running things that aren’t fully interactive applications. For example I mainly run the terminal version of R on a remote server, but it’s nice that X’s network transparency means I can still do plot() and have a plot pop up.

                                    1. 5

                                      Have you tried SSH compression? I normally use ssh -YC.

                                      1. 4

                                        Compression can’t do anything about latency, and latency impacts X11 a lot since it’s an extremely chatty protocol.

                                        1. 4

                                          There are some attempts to stick a caching proxy in the path to reduce the chattiness, since X11 is often chatty in pretty naive ways that ought to be fixable with a sufficiently protocol-aware caching server. I’ve heard good things about NX, but last time I tried to use it, the installation was messy.

                                          1. 1

                                            There’s a difference between latency (what you talk about) and speed (what I replied to). X11 mainly transfers an obscene amount of bitmaps.

                                            1. 1

                                              Both latency and bandwidth impact perceived speed.

                                      2. 6

                                        Seconded. Decades after, it’s still the best “remote desktop” experience out there.

                                        1. 3

                                          I regularly use it when I am on a Mac and want to use some Linux-only software (primarily scientific software). Since the machines that I run it on are a few floors up or down, it works magnificently well. Of course, I could run a Linux desktop in a VM, but it is nicer having the applications directly on the Mac desktop.

                                          Unfortunately, Apple does not seem to care at all about XQuartz anymore (can’t sell it to the animoji crowd) and XQuartz on HiDPI is just a PITA. Moreover, there is a bug in Sierra/High Sierra where the location menu (you can’t make this up) steals the focus of XQuartz all the time:

                                          https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7964085

                                          So regretfully, X11 is out for me soon.

                                          1. 3

                                            Second. I have a Fibre connection at home. I’ve found X11 forwarding works great for a lot of simply GTK applications (EasyTag), file managers, etc.

                                            Running my IntelliJ IDE or Firefox over X11/openvpn was pretty painfully slow, and IntelliJ became buggy, but that might have just been OpenVPN. Locally within the same building, X11 forwarding worked fine.

                                            I’ve given Wayland/Weston a shot on my home theater PC with the xwayland module for backward compatibility. It works .. all right. Almost all my games work (humble/steam) thankfully, but I have very few native wayland applications. Kodi is still glitchy, and I know Weston is meant to just be a reference implementation, but it’s still kinda garbage. There also don’t appear to be any wayland display managers on Void Linux, so if I want to display a login screen, it has to start X, then switch to Wayland.

                                            I’ve seen the Wayland/X talk and I agree, X has a lot of garbage in it and we should move forward. At the same time, it’s still not ready for prime time. You can’t say, “Well you can implement RDP” or some other type of remote composition and then hand wave it away.

                                            I’ll probably give Wayland/Sway a try when I get my new laptop to see if it works better on Gentoo.

                                            1. 2

                                              No hand waving necessary, Weston does implement RDP :)

                                          1. 2

                                            I thought this was going to be explaining Monads using things in the kitchen or things a non-tech person would do in everyday life. I was disappointed it was just code.

                                            1. 2

                                              instance Monad Knife where

                                            1. 1

                                              Makes me wonder if you can run Win 3.1 in cmd in Windows 10. I do have Windows 3.1 running in Dosbox .. but I’m too lazy to dig out my gaming laptop and copy it over at the moment.

                                              1. 2

                                                Man .. he spent a lot of time analyzing a character I barely remember, and I played that game a lot!

                                                1. 5

                                                  I rarely use the headphone port on my phone. I like using my bluetooth headphones. But I like having the port available, and I don’t see myself buying a phone without it in the near future.

                                                  1. 3

                                                    Same here. I like my bluetooth headphones, but it’s also nice to be at someone’s house and just plug into an audio cable to play some music instead of having to pair with a bluetooth speaker.

                                                  1. 15

                                                    It’s only dead if you follow Apple blindly into the abyss. On other phones it’s not dead yet.

                                                    1. 13

                                                      Not yet.. Remember when you could get a smartphone with a keyboard?

                                                      1. 10

                                                        Those are only dead if you’re not following Blackberry blindly into the abyss.

                                                      2. 11

                                                        I’ll agree there, I want my phone to have a 3.5mm jack. I can’t image how putting the DAC on the cheap end of the equation (the earplugs) can improve quality over a simple and sturdy analog cable with a magnet on one end.

                                                        1. 7

                                                          Or Google… I imagine it must be hard at a third party Android device manufacturer to avoid the temptation of following the lead of the two big players.

                                                          1. 9

                                                            Google’s move with the Pixel was particularly shit because they made fun of Apple for getting rid of the jack, then got rid of it themselves.

                                                            1. 2

                                                              I thought you were going to say something about search … I miss Yahoo/Lycos/Hotbot/Dogpile and getting different results that lead to different places. Fuck the search monoculture.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            I agree that trying to maintain POSIX comparability isn’t worth it, but I’m interesting in the author(s) decision to separate out an oil shell and language. They’re trying to make a complete alternative for the shell, that can also run classic shell code. The fish approach is that you can still rush your bash/sh script, just like you can a Python or Ruby script; and that fish is for your interactive shell.

                                                            This post doesn’t really talk about fish, the shell I’ve personally been using it since 2013. It’s really an amazing shell and has come a long way, and it’s designed primarily around usability features and command line highlighting. Tab completion can be derived from man pages, and the highlighting, reverse searching and directory stack navigation are all incredibly useful.

                                                            So I gave oil 0.3.0 a shot. A couple of interesting things: Ctrl+C actually breaks you out of the shell. Tab completion for directory navigation doesn’t seem to work, although I do like the status bar at the top with information a search time. Another bug, if a user doesn’t have access to a bin directory, I get an Unhandled exception while completing: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/usr/games/bin .. didn’t realize my user wasn’t in the games group.

                                                            I realize it’s still really early, and shells are incredibly incredibly difficult to write. Early versions of fish would craft often enough I’d wonder about the security implications. I applaud the contributors to this project and do hope we see more viable shell alternatives. Although I do suggest authors spend some time with fish as it comes with a lot of good stuff right out of the box, whose concepts I’d like to see incorporated elsewhere.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              I’m not sure what you mean with respect to fish. As far as I know, fish doesn’t run sh or bash scripts itself. You can of course invoke bash from fish, and you can invoke bash from osh too.

                                                              The first and last FAQ implicitly address your question about fish. Fish is “friendly interactive shell”. OSH is more concerned about the language for now, but I believe that will lead to a good interactive shell later. See the answers for details.

                                                              Thanks for trying OSH. I made a note of the Ctrl-C issue here:

                                                              https://github.com/oilshell/oil/issues/36

                                                              Also filed:

                                                              https://github.com/oilshell/oil/issues/69

                                                              I have looked a bit at fish, and in particular I like how they parse man pages for completion. I will probably steal that Python script! But that won’t happen for awhile, since I’m focused on the language.

                                                              At the very least, as I mention, OSH/Oil needs real functions so you don’t need to mutate globals to write completions!

                                                            1. 3

                                                              Does anyone still use macOS Server outside of Apple? I thought they didn’t even have rack-mountable servers, so using macOS server involved buying a regular Mac and just stacking it in a rack. Is that still the case?

                                                              1. 11

                                                                I think I mostly agree with the premise here.. I tried freebsd but I hard time being happy with it compared to simply using a systemd-less linux like void or alpine.

                                                                OpenBSD on the other hand fascinates me, mostly because of the security focus and overall simplicity, I think part of that idea of focused goals is the same reason I’ve been starting to keep up with DragonFlyBSD development, the drive to do something different than the mainstream can be a strong motivator of interest.

                                                                But realistically, I dont see something like FreeNAS dying anytime soon, some of my IT friends swear only by it.

                                                                1. 20

                                                                  I love running FreeBSD. I run Void whenever I have to run Linux, but honestly running FreeBSD is so much fun. The system makes so much sense, there are so few running processes. Configs are kept in the right places, packages that are installed just work, upgrades almost never broke anything, and in general there was a lot less fiddliness. I want to run Void from time to time to get the new and shiny (without having to build it for a custom platform), but in both Debian and Void (the systems I run), packages are of varying quality, and upgrades are always stressful (though Void’s running release nature makes it less so). FreeBSD’s consistency also makes me feel a lot less scared about opening it up and fiddling with the insides (such as trying my hand at creating my own rc unit runner or something), whereas with Linux I often feel like I’m peering at the edge of a Rube Goldberg machine.

                                                                  Oh and don’t get me started on the FreeBSD Handbook and manpages. Talk about documentation done right.

                                                                  1. 6

                                                                    “Rube Goldberg machine” is a great description for much of the Linux world. Especially Debian-style packages with their incredibly complex configuration hooks and menus and stuff.

                                                                    My favorite feature of pkgng is that packages do not add post-install actions to other packages :)

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      I still can’t get over the fact that installing a deb service on a Debian based distribution, starts the service automatically? Why was that ever considering a good design decision?

                                                                      I personally run Gentoo and Void. I had FreeBSD running really well on an older X1 carbon about two years back, but the hardware failed on the X1. I do use FreeBSD on my VPS for my openvpn server, but it seems like FreeBSD is the only one supported on major VPSes (Digital Ocean, Vultr). I wish there was better VPS support for at least OpenBSD.

                                                                    2. 2

                                                                      Dont get me wrong, I like FreeBSD, I’ve just never felt the same fascination towards it that I do with OpenBSD, DragonflyBSD, Haiku, ReactOS or Harvey. But perhaps thats a good thing?

                                                                      I guess the main thing Is I’ve never been in a situation where I didn’t need to use linux / windows and couldn’t use OpenBSD.

                                                                      1. 5

                                                                        FreeBSD seems to do less in-house experimental stuff that gets press. Dragonfly has the single-system image clustering long-term vision, OpenBSD is much more aggressive about ripping out and/or rewriting parts of the core system, etc.

                                                                        I do feel most comfortable with the medium-term organizational future of FreeBSD though. It seems to have the highest bus factor and strongest institutional backing. Dragonfly’s bus factor is pretty clearly 1: Matthew Dillon does the vast majority of development. OpenBSD’s is slightly higher, but I’m not entirely confident it would survive Theo leaving the project. While I don’t think any single person leaving FreeBSD would be fatal.

                                                                        1. 3

                                                                          I’m not entirely confident it would survive Theo leaving the project

                                                                          There is no reason to worry about that: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=137609553004700&w=2

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            FreeBSD seems to do less in-house experimental stuff that gets press

                                                                            The problem is with the press here. CloudABI is the most amazing innovation I’ve seen in the Unix world, and everyone is sleeping on it ;(

                                                                      2. 3

                                                                        I tried freebsd but I hard time being happy with it compared to simply using a systemd-less linux like void or alpine.

                                                                        The Linux distro that’s closest to the *BSD world is Gentoo - they even named their package management system “Portage” because it’s inspired by *BSD ports.

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          As a long time OpenBSD & Gentoo user (they were my introduction to BSD & Linux respectively and I’ve run both on servers & desktops for years), I strongly disagree. If I wanted to experience BSD on Linux, Gentoo would be the last thing I’d look at.

                                                                          1. 1

                                                                            If I wanted to experience BSD on Linux, Gentoo would be the last thing I’d look at.

                                                                            Then you are way off the mark, because the closest thing to *BSD ports in the Linux world is Gentoo’s Portage and OpenRC is the natural evolution of FreeBSD’s init scripts.

                                                                            1. 5

                                                                              Over the past decade, I’ve used ports once or twice. Currently I don’t have a copy of the ports tree. At this day and age, ports & package management are among the least interesting properties of an operating system (if only because they all do it well enough, and they all still suck). OpenRC might be ok, but the flavor of init scripts doesn’t exactly define the system either.

                                                                              My idea of BSD does not entail spending hours fucking with configs and compiling third party packages to make a usable system. Maybe FreeBSD is like that? If so, I’m quite disappointed.

                                                                      1. 7

                                                                        I worked at two companies with OpenStack. One was in New Zealand and they basically hemorrhaged money trying to start up a cloud provider using OpenStack. It was god awful. Machines constantly fell over, CPUs would get pegged for no reason, the built in permission model gave an admin token to almost everything (like basic monitoring).

                                                                        My manager was really good and he had accounts on Redhat’s, Cannonical’s, Rackspace’s and others OpenStack implementation. We found tons of custom proprietary plugins that weren’t open sourced (that we could tell). There was no CVE mailing list; I had to write a script to parse the launchpad bugs so we could get CVEs. The debian repo/debs were more up to date than Ubuntu’s. Even Debian’s took a few weeks to patch CVEs, so we talked about creating our own build system. Standing up a dev environment was next to impossible because there were too many VMs to run on one desktop (even when using LXE containers instead of VirtualBox) and also open-vswitch can go die in a fire. Updates to parts of the software involved putting your patch on a wiki page (no git merge request system for many components).

                                                                        After that job I worked for a Seattle company that tried to migrate off AWS onto OpenStack. It was a fucking disaster. They couldn’t keep that cluster stable worth shit and eventually dropped it and went to DC/OS. DC/OS might be a resource hog, but it was stable and it worked for scheduling containers. They replaced the entire OpenStack cluster with DC/OS nodes and it turned into a company wide platform for everything.

                                                                        Fuck OpenStack. Burn it with a god damn fire. It’s a piece of shit that you should use never.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          I run my own deb/rpm repository and I have it under SSL via LetsEncrypt. I also sign all my packages and publish a key in the root:

                                                                          https://repo.bigsense.io/

                                                                          I mean .. you can do both. And LetsEncrypt makes it easy. I’m sure with something hit has hard as the Debian repo, there would be a performance hit though. But if you run your own repo, you might as well. If you’re interested in running your own, I have some ansible scripts and Jenkins configs that make it easy (the readme is kinda out of date):

                                                                          https://github.com/bigsense/vSense

                                                                          1. 3

                                                                            On a meta note, I like the clean layout of this person’s website .. and all the cookie monster drawings. … Man, now I’m hungry.

                                                                            1. 15

                                                                              I’ll add my voice to those which disagree with you. I think that a single message in a mailing list can be an excellent place to dive into an issue — far better than an article or blog post, because the entire mailing list history is right there (unlike in an article or blog post, where the author will likely only link to other instances which support his points).

                                                                              I do think that discussions about tone & style are generally off-topic to technical discussions. Someone who says, ‘water is composed of hydrogen & oxygen, jerk!’ is correct regardless of his rudeness, while someone who says, ‘pardon me, but in my opinion snails grow up to be geese’ is incorrect regardless of his politeness.

                                                                              1. 10

                                                                                I agree with you et. al. too. I think there has been meaningful discussion around such posts. People often quote before/after e-mails in the thread; talk about stuff that came up years ago, etc. I mean there might not be enough context in one e-mail, but it can be a good starting point.

                                                                                When Meltdown came out, a lot of people were asking where the BSD community stood. For a while, the only official statement for OpenBSD came from their mailing list. I think for DragonFly, it was their changelog.

                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                Some of these are neat, but I don’t see myself going back to bash any time soon. After using fish for a few years, I think it’d be difficult for me to go back.