1. 0

    That’s too simple for a plugin? I’m definitely not going to write all that code. If left-pad is a npm package, that can definitely be a vim plugin.

    1. 6

      I guess the author has not used truly horrible UIs like Collabnet. I once sent a link to a file to someone on email. It had all sorts of junk in the URL and after a while clicking on the link did not produce the intended result.

      90% of the time I’m on this page, I’m looking for the history button

      Not me. When I am on a page looking at the code, I need to see the code

      And 90% of the time, it takes me 30 seconds to find it. I would love to get a hold of the analytics for how many people star a repository after looking at a random file buried somewhere in the tree

      30 seconds is possibly an exaggeration. But it is possible that the star button is not removed because of PJAX : https://github.com/defunkt/jquery-pjax. It is probably why Github UI seems ( to me at least ) very fast

      Also missing: any way to even get back to the file

      Try the back button on your browser

      1. 8

        Try the back button on your browser

        Sad state of affairs when the back button has been practically killed off by web UIs.

        My personal banks don’t deal with it at all, though the bank I use for my company fortunately does. Lots of governmental sites break or deny when going back.

        Some sites explicitly tell you not to hit back, as if the developers never heard of idempotence.

        Wonder if this started with having html elements with a javascript call to go back?

        1. 0

          90% of the time I’m on this page, I’m looking for the history button

          Not me. When I am on a page looking at the code, I need to see the code

          You are really just saying the same thing. Both the code and the history button are under several rows of UI stuff.

          Try the back button on your browser

          Good luck. It may work on shithub for now, but many sites break catastrophically when you hit the magic destroy^W back button.

          1. 12

            shithub

            I don’t think you should use shithub. At best it is an annoying addition that doesn’t add anything to your statement and at worst it reduce it to a childish rant and shows you don’t want to engage in serious discussion.

            1. 2

              yeah let’s not do the Micro$haft stuff from the late 90s lol

              1. 4

                MICROS~1 is my favourite from that era. But yeah, it’s all dumb.

                1. 3

                  I hadn’t heard that one before, and found a great explanation from a relic of an internet past… https://everything2.com/title/MICROS~1

                  1. -1

                    MICROS~1

                    Ha, this one should be allowed for historic purposes.

          1. 16

            Similar page on git.sr.ht:

            https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/git.sr.ht/tree/master/gitsrht/service.py

            Someone sent me this thread and suggested I comment on my design perspective with sourcehut. I agree that GitHub is too fluffy, generally speaking, and Gitlab has much of the same. I generally focus on giving the content as much real estate as I can and minimizing distractions. Anything which isn’t the content should either (1) be immediately relevant to the content, like the file mode and path, or (2) be useful in the context of that content, like the tabs to explore the rest of the repo in question, or the breadcrumbs to different files/dirs in that file’s path. There is a list of links in the nav, but they’re all directing you to tools, not marketing material, and are colored as to not be distracting (contrast with Github’s large attention-grabbing bar).

            On other pages I use colors to stronger effect. I use the shades of grey approach for almost everything on the page, but if there’s one thing you probably came to that page to do (for example, creating a new git repo on the index page), it’s given a colored button. I use red for dangerous buttons, too. I also lay out explicitly in the text of the button what pushing it will do - prefer “Proceed and delete” over “Continue”. Icons are used conservatively throughout, but interactive elements always have text next to them stating their purpose (rather than relying on the user’s interpretation of the icon to explain), and non-interactive icons are seldomly used without accompanying text, and always with a tooltip that explains their meaning.

            Overall my philosophy is that sourcehut is a tool for engineers. These pages are almost never seen outside of when you’re in engineering mode. When you’re in engineering mode, I just want to put the information you need at hand and not distract you with enterprise, pricing, stars & forks, etc. There’s a dedicated marketing page for that stuff.

            It’s not perfect, but I’m pretty happy with it and I get generally positive feedback. Worth noting that it’s missing some features GitHub has, like per-file logging and git blame. Happy to take feedback if anyone here has some.

            1. 8

              Just FYI, I find per file history an essential part of web view. It’s the number one reason I use github or cvsweb.

              I have taken an interest in some file. I want to see its evolution. Alas, command line tools are pretty terrible. It’s very easy to get a short listing of commits and change messages, but now I want to see the diff, which requires running another command, and copying and pasting hex hashes, etc. (git log -p will dump too much output on me, I don’t want to see every diff ever.) And same for annotate. Also, there’s much less friction for me to split out a dozen tabs for a dozen diffs in a browser than trying to do the same in a terminal.

              Most other operations, like viewing and searching files, navigating directories, I can handle pretty well from the command line.

              1. 8

                Have you tried tig? http://jonas.nitro.dk/tig/

                I find it a great console tool for browsing git histories. It’s also very nice for viewing a single file’s history. Just run tig path/to/file.

                1. 1

                  Thanks so much for the suggestion, this looks really cool! For the record, here’s the updated link.

                  1. 1

                    Oh, thank you. I had no idea, but after a few minutes this appears to be just what I want.

                    (For cvs I’ve gone so far as to build my own, but it’s pretty rough since I have little patience polishing terminal UI elements.)

                  2. 4

                    Yeah, I get that. It’s not a deliberate omission, it’s just a product of limited time and a new product.

                    1. 1

                      I look forward to seeing your platform grow! It may not yet have the kitchen sink, as they say; but it certainly has a very principled & well-designed foundation, and that gives me great confidence in the quality of the kitchen sink that will eventually be installed. 😉

                  3. 4

                    I don’t have anything particularly constructive to say other than that UI looks perfect for exactly the reasons you describe: “engineering mindset”, content-first, minimal noise.

                    1. 3

                      And the corresponding page for a given ref (tag): https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/git.sr.ht/tree/0.22.7/.builds/archlinux.yml Clearly shows in the UI that one is browsing 0.22.7 tree, not for example master.

                    1. 3

                      this seems like a lot of work. just buy .mp3 files or rip physical media, sd card storage is cheap

                      1. 1

                        This looks great! I started building a page for my new personal site last night and it’s almost exactly the look I wanted to go for.

                        1. 5

                          Hey, it beats teamcity.

                          1. 1

                            What’s wrong with TC? My own experience has always been pretty great, an experience I’ve had with most of their tools, and so I’m curious to hear other viewpoints.

                            1. 2

                              To be fair, I had a bad experience with it but it was ~5 years ago and could easily be attributed to being green in the field. I just found it hard to understand and easy to accidentaly break things with it.

                          1. 2

                            Yeah, if it worked and it was trustworthy, that’d be great for everyone.

                            1. 18

                              Additional info on the reddit post:

                              Final Update

                              It really was the ex employee who said he put it there almost a year ago to “help us identifying wifi problems and tracking users in the area around the Managers office”. He didn’t answer as to why he never told us, as his main argument was to help us with his data and he has still not sent us the data he collected. We handed the case over to the authorities.

                              1. 8

                                That’s an incredibly weak lie lol

                              1. -1

                                I always love reading stories like this.

                                1. 1

                                  You’re like the next Linus/RMS/ESR, congrats

                                  1. 2

                                    High praise! I hope Iive up to it, thanks!

                                  1. 5

                                    Spending it walking around Tokyo, and avoiding Akihabara after getting stuck for 7 hours wondering around all the stores :)

                                    1. 3

                                      Akihabara is a place high-up on my bucket list of travel destinations. I hardly play video games anymore but it sounded like such a magical place reading about it as a kid in the midwest. I hope to see it one day, just to take it in.

                                      1. 2

                                        It is not quite as techie as it used to be (the maid cafe business is just too profitable), but it is a great experience and still has a lot of that magic thanks to hardcore shops like kadenken.

                                        1. 2

                                          I’m just now reading about maid cafes and, yeah, that does sound really creepy (and sadly profitable). I’m glad to hear there are still tech / gaming shops there, though.

                                        2. 2

                                          I hope you get to see it in the near future, it is incredible and hard to escape once you enter.

                                      1. 1

                                        Last I saw, decorators were still NOT a standard and are in the experimental phase (and going to change). I would be wary of anything that uses them in JS right now.

                                        This stuff is great if you only have to support the latest browsers. It makes everything so much smaller and easier to deal with, but the reality that most of us are faced with is supporting older browsers (and still IE in many cases). We’d still need a compilation step to turn ES7 into ES5 and then shim anything that isn’t available.

                                        1. 1

                                          IIRC there is a WebComponents polyfill. IDK if it works all the way back to ES7 though.

                                        1. 16

                                          Glad someone spoke up about this. I was thinking about it yesterday when I saw that Ars Technica did a post about the MOAD anniversary. If this all got dreamed up and demonstrated fifty years ago, what the hell have we been doing since?

                                          Computers are supposed to make us smarter, not dumber.

                                          1. 26

                                            what the hell have we been doing since?

                                            We pressed ever more transistors into the same space to make that dream from 50 years ago scale to many people in lots of places.

                                            MOAD used two studio style cameras directly linked via microwave to the opposite side’s screen for the “video conferencing” part. Today two smartphones on a packet switched network are more than enough to do that, even across continents, and with much better image and sound quality.

                                            Edit to add: note that I’m not claiming that history didn’t take a few wrong turns compared to what could have been. But in lots of ways the last 50 years created more solid foundations where a system like used in the MOAD isn’t feasible to build only by a team of intellectuals with quasi-infinite resources, but can be built by some smart 15 year old with a 10 years old computer that’s available as scrap part, and then used by millions of people.

                                            1. 7

                                              Don’t you understand that engineering isn’t about bringing down prices and increasing availability and improving reliability?!

                                              1. 2

                                                there’s a difference between the concerns of hardware or software engineering as a discipline and technology as the writer is talking about, and I think you capture the engineering side here well. I’m not as bearish on the current state of tech as the author is, but we haven’t landed even close to the most ideal of all futures.

                                                This is where I’d add in something about tech being strangled by capital, but nobody wants that polemic. :)

                                                1. 4

                                                  Don’t worry, I wrote that one too.

                                                  1. 2

                                                    I see references to Marx, Debord, Steiner, very cool. This is quite good. I’m going to pick up your book. On another note, I wish there was a forum to discuss topics like these exactly, but I think the blogosphere is good enough for now.

                                                    1. 3

                                                      There’s a circle of folks who are trying to push the envelope over on the fediverse, & a lot of my posts come out of discussion with them. (It’s a mixed group: some folks who are trying to switch all their blogging to gopher, some folks who are trying to replace their primary computers with something manufactured before 1990, some who are building brand new architectures from scratch, some writing OSes, and a handful who are mostly into hypertext.)

                                                    2. 2

                                                      They’d like that over on /r/socialistprogrammers too.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        If nobody has submitted it over there yet, maybe I will.

                                              2. 13

                                                Excel is an extension of the mind. Slack w/ video conference/chat/search logs is an extension of the mind. Voice commands are an extension of the mind. Salesforce’s process builders are extensions of minds.

                                                The silo’ing of data in web applications is probably the biggest mess, but otherwise the average person has been given access to far more tooling than they’ve ever had to think and deal with stuff. People who are miles away from programming still “get” naming files a certain way to find the info they need.

                                                People here or on the orange site might complain that the Smalltalk revolution didn’t happen, but being able to put hyperlinks in almost every system I use on a daily basis is pretty close. It’s not all unified but it’s there. It’s not all accessed via text-based programming languages, but it’s pretty present.

                                                1. 9

                                                  Excel is an extension of the mind

                                                  This! It gets a lot of stick but Excel is powerful, and I’m consistently impressed with the things that so-called ‘non-technical’ people do with it everyday.

                                                  In fact, I recently opened some old (-ish, c. 2011) copies of the Journal of Mathematics and Music and found reference to an academic system for music analysis that had been developed in Visual Basic, on Excel…

                                                  1. 4

                                                    Agreed! Spreadsheets are software and Excel is an IDE.

                                                2. 3

                                                  There are a few folks keeping the faith. The biggest names are the same folks who were doing it in the 60s and 70s, but there are also people like Bret Victor.

                                                  1. 2

                                                    Creating lock-in. The landscape is mature, stable, a platform that people rely on.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    Awesome vanity domain, lol

                                                    1. 81

                                                      I beg all my fellow crustaceans to please, please use Firefox. Not because you think it’s better, but because it needs our support. Technology only gets better with investment, and if we don’t invest in Firefox, we will lose the web to chrome.

                                                      1. 59

                                                        Not because you think it’s better

                                                        But that certainly helps too. It is a great browser.

                                                        • privacy stuff — the cookie container API for things like Facebook Container, built-in tracker blocker, various anti-fingerprinting things they’re backporting from the Tor Browser
                                                        • honestly just the UI and the visual design! I strongly dislike the latest Chrome redesign >_<
                                                        • nice devtools things — e.g. the CSS Grid inspector
                                                        • more WebExtension APIs (nice example: only on Firefox can Signed Pages actually prevent the page from even loading when the signature check fails)
                                                        • the fastest (IIRC) WASM engine (+ now in Nightly behind a pref: even better codegen backend based on Cranelift)
                                                        • ongoing but already usable Wayland implementation (directly in the official tree now, not as a fork)
                                                        • WebRender!!!
                                                        1. 7

                                                          On the other hand, WebSocket debugging (mostly frame inspection) is impossible in Firefox without an extension. I try not to install any extensions that I don’t absolutely need and Chrome has been treating me just fine in this regard[1].

                                                          Whether or not I agree with Google’s direction is now a moot point. I need Chrome to do what I do with extensions.

                                                          As soon as Firefox supports WebSocket debugging natively, I will be perfectly happy to switch.

                                                          [1] I mostly oppose extensions because of questionable maintenance cycles. I allow uBlock and aXe because they have large communities backing them.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            Axe (https://www.deque.com/axe/) seems amazing. I know it wasn’t the focus of your post – but I somehow missed this when debugging an accessibility issue just recently, I wish I had stumbled onto it. Thanks!

                                                            1. 1

                                                              You’re welcome!

                                                              At $work, we used aXe and NVDA to make our webcomponents AA compliant with WCAG. aXe was invaluable for things like contrast and missing role attributes.

                                                            2. 3

                                                              WebSocket debugging (mostly frame inspection) is impossible in Firefox without an extension

                                                              Is it possible with an extension? I can’t seem to find one.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                I have never needed to debug WebSockets and see no reason for that functionality to bloat the basic browser for everybody. Too many extensions might not be a good thing but if you need specific functionality, there’s no reason to hold back. If it really bothers you, run separate profiles for web development and browsing. I have somewhat more than two extensions and haven’t had any problems.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  I do understand your sentiment, but the only extension that I see these days is marked “Experimental”.

                                                                  On the other hand, I don’t see how it would “bloat” a browser very much. (Disclaimer: I have never written a browser or contributed to any. I am open to being proved wrong.) I have written a WebSockets library myself, and it’s not a complex protocol. It can’t be too expensive to update a UI element on every (websocket) frame.

                                                              2. 5

                                                                Yes! I don’t know about you, but I love the fact that Firefox uses so much less ram than chrome.

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  This was one of the major reasons I stuck with FF for a long time. It is still a pronounced difference.

                                                                2. 3

                                                                  honestly just the UI and the visual design! I strongly dislike the latest Chrome redesign >_<

                                                                  Yeah, what’s the deal with the latest version of Chrome? All those bubbly menus feel very mid-2000’s. Everything old is new again.

                                                                  1. 3

                                                                    I found a way to go back to the old ui from https://www.c0ffee.net/blog/openbsd-on-a-laptop/ (it was posted here a few weeks ago):

                                                                    Also, set the following in chrome://flags:

                                                                    • Smooth Scrolling: (personal preference)
                                                                    • UI Layout for the browser’s top chrome: set to “Normal” to get the classic Chromium look back
                                                                    • Identity consistency between browser and cookie jar: set to “Disabled” to keep Google from hijacking any Google > - login to sign you into Chrome
                                                                    • SafeSearch URLs reporting: disabled

                                                                    (emphasis mine)

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      Aaaaaaaand they took out that option.

                                                                  2. 1

                                                                    The Wayland implementation is not usable quite yet, though, but it is close. I tried it under Sway, but it was crashy.

                                                                  3. 16

                                                                    I switched to Firefox last year, and I have to say I don’t miss Chrome in the slightest.

                                                                    1. 13

                                                                      And those with a little financial liberty, consider donating to Mozilla. They do a lot of important work free a free and open web.

                                                                      1. 10

                                                                        I recently came back to Firefox from Vivaldi. That’s another Chromium/Webkit based browser and it’s closed source to boot.

                                                                        Firefox has improved greatly in speed as of late and I feel like we’re back in the era of the mid-2000s, asking people to chose Firefox over Chrome this time instead of IE.

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          I’d love to switch from Vivaldi, but it’s simply not an option given the current (terrible) state of vertical tab support in Firefox.

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            How is it terrible? The hiding of the regular tab bar is not an API yet and you have to use CSS for that, sure, but there are some very good tree style tab webextensions.

                                                                            1. 2

                                                                              The extensions are all terrible – but what’s more important is that I lost the belief that any kind of vertical tab functionality has any chance of long-term survival. Even if support was added now, it would be a constant battle to keep it and I’m frankly not interested in such fights anymore.

                                                                              Mozilla is chasing their idealized “average user” and is determined to push everyone into their one-size-fits-all idea of user interface design – anyone not happy with that can screw off, if it was for Mozilla.

                                                                              It’s 2018 – I don’t see why I even have to argue for vertical tabs and mouse gestures anymore. I just pick a browser vendor which hasn’t been asleep on the wheel for the last 5 years and ships with these features out of the box.

                                                                              And if the web in the future ends up as some proprietary API defined by whatever Google Chrome implements, because Firefox went down, Mozilla has only itself to blame.

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                The extensions are all terrible – but what’s more important is that I lost the belief that any kind of vertical tab functionality has any chance of long-term survival. Even if support was added now, it would be a constant battle to keep it and I’m frankly not interested in such fights anymore. The whole point of moving to WebExtensions was long term support. They couldn’t make significant changes without breaking a lot of the old extensions. The whole point was to unhook extensions from the internals so they can refactor around them and keep supporting them.

                                                                                1. 0

                                                                                  That’s like a car manufacturer removing all electronics from a car – sure it makes the car easier to support … but now the car doesn’t even turn on anymore!

                                                                                  Considering that cars are usually used for transportation, not for having them sit in the garage, you shouldn’t be surprised that customers buy other cars in the future.

                                                                                  (And no, blaming “car enthusiasts” for having unrealistic expectations, like it happens in the case of browser users, doesn’t cut it.)

                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                    So you’d rather they didn’t improve it at all? Or would you rather they broke most extensions every release?

                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                      I’m not @soc, but I wish Firefox had delayed their disabling of old-style extensions in Firefox 57 until they had replicated more of the old functionality with the WebExtensions API – mainly functionality related to interface customization, tabs, and sessions.

                                                                                      Yes, during the time of that delay, old-style extensions would continue to break with each release, but the maintainers of Tree Style Tabs and other powerful extensions had already been keeping up with each release by releasing fixed versions. They probably could have continued updating their extensions until WebExtensions supported their required functionality. And some users might prefer to run slightly-buggy older extensions for a bit instead of switching to the feature-lacking new extensions straight away – they should have that choice.

                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                        What’s the improvement? The new API was so bad that they literally had to pull the plug on the existing API to force extension authors to migrate. That just doesn’t happen in cases where the API is “good”, developers are usually eager to adopt them and migrate their code.

                                                                                        Let’s not accuse people you disagree with that they are “against improvements” – it’s just that the improvements have to actually exist, and in this case the API clearly wasn’t ready. This whole fiasco feels like another instance of CADT-driven development and the failure of management to reign in on it.

                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                          The old extension API provided direct access to the JavaScript context of both the chrome and the tab within a single thread, so installing an XUL extension was disabling multiprocess mode. Multiprocess mode seems like an improvement; in old Firefox, a misbehaving piece of JavaScript would lock up the browser for about a second before eventually popping up a dialog offering to kill it, whereas in a multiprocess browser, it should be possible to switch and close tabs no matter what the web page inside does. The fact that nobody notices when it works correctly seems to make it the opposite of Attention-Deficient-Driven-Design; it’s the “focus on quality of implementation, even at the expense of features” design that we should be encouraging.

                                                                                          The logical alternative to “WebExtension For The Future(tm)” would’ve been to just expose all of the relevant threads of execution directly to the XUL extensions. run-this-in-the-chome.xul and run-this-in-every-tab.xul and message pass between them. But at that point, we’re talking about having three different extension APIs in Firefox.

                                                                                          Which isn’t to say that I think you’re against improvement. I am saying that you’re thinking too much like a developer, and not enough like the poor sod who has to do QA and Support triage.

                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                            Improving the actual core of Firefox. They’re basically ripping out and replacing large components every other release. This would break large amount of plugins constantly. Hell, plugins wouldn’t even work in Nightly. I do agree with @roryokane that they should have tried to improve it before cutting support. The new API is definitely missing many things but it was the right decision to make for the long term stability of Firefox.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              They could have made the decision to ax the old API after extension authors adopted it. That adoption failed so hard that they had to force developers to use the new API speaks for itself.

                                                                                              I’d rather have extension that I have to fix from time to time, than no working extensions at all.

                                                                                    2. 1

                                                                                      Why should Mozilla care that much about your niche use case? They already have a ton of stuff to deal with and barely enough funding.

                                                                                      It’s open source, make your own VerticalTabFox fork :)

                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                        Eh … WAT? Mozilla went the extra mile with their recent extension API changes to make things – that worked before – impossible to implement with a recent Firefox version. The current state of tab extensions is this terrible, because Mozilla explicitly made it this way.

                                                                                        I used Firefox for more than 15 years – the only thing I wanted was to be left alone.

                                                                                        It’s open source, make your own VerticalTabFox fork :)

                                                                                        Feel free to read my comment above to understand why that doesn’t cut it.

                                                                                        Also, Stuff that works >> open source. Sincerely, a happy Vivaldi user.

                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                          It’s one of the laws of the internet at this point: Every thread about Firefox is always bound to attract someone complaining about WebExtensions not supporting their pet feature that was possible with the awful and insecure old extension system.

                                                                                          If you’re care about “non terrible” (whatever that means — Tree Style Tab looks perfect to me) vertical tabs more than anything — sure, use a browser that has them.

                                                                                          But you seem really convinced that Firefox could “go down” because of not supporting these relatively obscure power user features well?? The “average user” they’re “chasing” is not “idealized”. The actual vast majority of people do not choose browsers based on vertical tabs and mouse gestures. 50% of Firefox users do not have a single extension installed, according to telemetry. The majority of the other 50% probably only have an ad blocker.

                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                            If you’re care about “non terrible” (whatever that means — Tree Style Tab looks perfect to me) vertical tabs more than anything — sure, use a browser that has them.

                                                                                            If you compare the current state of the art of vertical tabs extensions, even Mozilla thinks they suck – just compare them to their own Tab Center experiment: https://testpilot.firefox.com/static/images/experiments/tab-center/details/tab-center-1.1957e169.jpg

                                                                                            Picking just one example: Having the navigation bar at a higher level of the visual hierarchy is just wrong – the tab panel isn’t owned by the navigation bar, the navigation bar belongs to a specific tab! Needless to say, all of the vertical tab extensions are forced to be wrong, because they lack the API do implement the UI correctly.

                                                                                            This is how my browser currently looks like, for comparison: https://i.imgur.com/5dTX8Do.png

                                                                                            But you seem really convinced that Firefox could “go down” because of not supporting these relatively obscure power user features well?? The “average user” they’re “chasing” is not “idealized”. The actual vast majority of people do not choose browsers based on vertical tabs and mouse gestures. 50% of Firefox users do not have a single extension installed, according to telemetry. The majority of the other 50% probably only have an ad blocker.

                                                                                            You can only go so far alienating the most loyal users that use Firefox for specific purposes until the stop installing/recommending it to their less technically-inclined friends and relatives.

                                                                                            Mozilla is so busy chasing after Chrome that it doesn’t even realize that most Chrome users will never switch. They use Chrome because “the internet” (www.google.com) told them so. As long as Mozilla can’t make Google recommend Firefox on their frontpage, this will not change.

                                                                                            Discarding their most loyal users while trying to get people to adopt Firefox who simply aren’t interested – this is a recipe for disaster.

                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                          and barely enough funding

                                                                                          Last I checked they pulled in half a billion in revenue (2016). Do you believe this is barely enough?

                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                            For hundreds of millions users?

                                                                                            Yeah.

                                                                                      2. 1

                                                                                        At least with multi-row tabs in CSS you can’t dragndrop tabs. That’s about as bad as it gets.

                                                                                      3. 2

                                                                                        Are vertical tabs so essential?

                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                          Considering the change in screen ratios over the past ten years (displays get shorter and wider), yes, it absolutely is.

                                                                                          With vertical tabs I can get almost 30 full-width tabs on screen, with horizontal tabs I can start fishing for the right tab after about 15, as the tab width gets increasingly smaller.

                                                                                          Additionally, vertical tabs reduce the way of travel substantially when selecting a different tab.

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            I still miss them, didn’t cripple me, but really hurt. The other thing about Tree (not just vertical) tabs that FF used to have was that the subtree was contextual to the parent tree. So, when you opened a link in a background tab, it was opened in a new tab that was a child of your current tab. For doing like documentation hunting / research it was amazing and I still haven’t found its peer.

                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                          It’s at least partially open source. They provide tarballs.

                                                                                          1. 4

                                                                                            https://help.vivaldi.com/article/is-vivaldi-open-source/

                                                                                            The chromium part is legally required to be open, the rest of their code is like readable source, don’t get me wrong that’s way better than unreadable source but it’s also very wut.

                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                              Very wut. It’s a weird uneasy mix.

                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                that’s way better than unreadable source but it’s also very wut.

                                                                                                I wouldn’t be sure of that. It makes it auditable, but has legal ramifications should you want to build something like vivaldi, but free.

                                                                                          2. 8

                                                                                            firefox does not get better with investment, it gets worse.

                                                                                            the real solution is to use netsurf or dillo or mothra, so that webmasters have to come to us and write websites that work with browsers that are simple enough to be independently maintained.

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                                                                                              Good luck getting more than 1‰ adoption 😉

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                                                                                                good luck achieving independence from Google by using a browser funded by Google

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                                                                                                  I can achieve independence from Google without using netsurf, dillo, or mothra; to be quite honest, those will never catch on.

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                                                                                                    can you achieve independence from google in a way that will catch on?

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                                                                                                      I don’t think we’ll ever get the majority of browser share back into the hands of a (relatively) sane organization like Mozilla—but we can at least get enough people to make supporting alternative browsers a priority. On the other hand, the chances that web devs will ever feel pressured to support the browsers you mentioned, is close to nil. (No pun intended.)

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                                                                                                        what is the value of having an alternative, if that alternative is funded by google and sends data to google by default?

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                                                                                                          what is the value of having an alternative

                                                                                                          What would you like me to say, that Firefox’s existence is worthless? This is an absurd thing to insinuate.

                                                                                                          funded by google

                                                                                                          No. I’m not sure whether you’re speaking in hyperbole, misunderstood what I was saying, and/or altogether skipped reading what I wrote. But this is just not correct. If Google really had Mozilla by the balls as you suggest, they would coerce them to stop adding privacy features to their browser that, e.g., block Google Analytics on all sites.

                                                                                                          sends data to google by default

                                                                                                          Yes, though it seems they’ve been as careful as one could be about this. Also to be fair, if you’re browsing with DNT off, you’re likely to get tracked by Google at some point anyway. But the fact that extensions can’t block this does have me worried.

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                                                                                                            i’m sorry if i misread something you wrote. i’m just curious what benefit you expect to gain if more people start using firefox. if everyone switched to firefox, google could simply tighten their control over mozilla (continuing the trend of the past 10 years), and they would still have control over how people access the web.

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                                                                                                              It seems you’re using “control” in a very abstract sense, and I’m having trouble following. Maybe I’m just missing some context, but what concrete actions have Google taken over the past decade to control the whole of Mozilla?

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                                                                                                                Google has pushed through complex standards such as HTTP/2 and new rendering behaviors, which Mozilla implements in order to not “fall behind.” They are able implement and maintain such complexity due to funding they receive from Google, including their deal to make Google the default search engine in Firefox (as I said earlier, I couldn’t find any breakdown of what % of Mozilla’s funding comes from Google).

                                                                                                                For evidence of the influence this funding has, compare the existence of Mozilla’s Facebook Container to the non-existence of a Google Container.

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                                                                                                                  what % of Mozilla’s funding comes from Google

                                                                                                                  No word on the exact breakdown. Visit their 2017 report and scroll all the way to the bottom, and you’ll get a couple of helpful links. One of them is to a wiki page that describes exactly what each search engine gets in return for their investment.

                                                                                                                  I would also like to know the exact breakdown, but I’d expect all those companies would get a little testy if the exact amount were disclosed. And anyway, we know what the lump sum is (around half a billion), and we can assume that most of it comes from Google.

                                                                                                                  the non-existence of a Google Container

                                                                                                                  They certainly haven’t made one themselves, but there’s nothing stopping others from forking one off! And anyway, I think it’s more so fear on Mozilla’s part than any concrete warning from Google against doing so.

                                                                                                                  Perhaps this is naïveté on my part, but I really do think Google just want their search engine to be the default for Firefox. In any case, if they really wanted to exert their dominance over the browser field, they could always just… you know… stop funding Mozilla. Remember: Google is in the “web market” first & the “software market” second. Having browser dominance is just one of many means to the same end. I believe their continued funding of Mozilla attests to that.

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                                                                                                                    It doesn’t have to be a direct threat from Google to make a difference. Direct threats are a very narrow way in which power operates and there’s no reason that should be the only type of control we care about.

                                                                                                                    Yes Google’s goal of dominating the browser market is secondary to their goal of dominating the web. Then we agree that Google’s funding of Firefox is in keeping with their long-term goal of web dominance.

                                                                                                                    if they really wanted to exert their dominance over the browser field, they could always just… you know… stop funding Mozilla.

                                                                                                                    Likewise, if Firefox was a threat to their primary goal of web dominance, they could stop funding Mozilla. So doesn’t it stand to reason that using Firefox is not an effective way to resist Google’s web dominance? At least Google doesn’t think so.

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                                                                                                                      Likewise, if Firefox was a threat to their primary goal of web dominance, they could stop funding Mozilla. So doesn’t it stand to reason that using Firefox is not an effective way to resist Google’s web dominance?

                                                                                                                      You make some good points, but you’re ultimately using the language of a “black or white” argument here. In my view, if Google were to stop funding Mozilla they would still have other sponsors. And that’s not to mention the huge wave this would make in the press—even if most people don’t use Firefox, they’re at least aware of it. In a strange sense, Google cannot afford to stop funding Mozilla. If they do, they lose their influence over the Firefox project and get huge backlash.

                                                                                                                      I think this is something the Mozilla organization were well aware of when they made the decision to accept search engines as a funding source. They made themselves the center of attention, something to be competed over. And in so doing, they ensured their longevity, even as Google’s influence continued to grow.

                                                                                                                      Of course this has negative side effects, such as companies like Google having influence over them. But in this day & age, the game is no longer to be free of influence from Google; that’s Round 2. Round 1 is to achieve enough usage to exert influence on what technologies are actually adopted. In that sense, Mozilla is at the discussion table, while netsurf, dillo, and mothra (as much as I’d love to love them) are not and likely never will be.

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                                                                                                  Just switch to Gopher.

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                                                                                                    Just switch to Gopher

                                                                                                    I know you were joking, but I do feel like there is something to be said for the simplicity of systems like gopher. The web is so complicated nowadays that building a fully functional web browser requires software engineering on a grand scale.

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                                                                                                      yeah. i miss when the web was simpler.

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                                                                                                        I was partially joking. I know there are new ActivityPub tools like Pleroma that support Gopher and I’ve though about adding support to generate/server gopher content for my own blog. I realize it’s still kinda a joke within the community, but you’re right about there being something simple about just having content without all the noise.

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                                                                                                    Unless more than (rounded) 0% of people use it for Facebook, it won’t make a large enough blip for people to care. Also this is how IE was dominant, because so much only worked for them.

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                                                                                                      yes, it would require masses of people. and yes it won’t happen, which is why the web is lost.

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                                                                                                    I’ve relatively recently switched to FF, but still use Chrome for web dev. The dev tools still seem quite more advanced and the browser is much less likely to lock up completely if I have a JS issue that’s chewing CPU.

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                                                                                                      I tried to use Firefox on my desktop. It was okay, not any better or worse than Chrome for casual browsing apart from private browsing Not Working The Way It Should relative to Chrome (certain cookies didn’t work across tabs in the same Firefox private window). I’d actually want to use Firefox if this was my entire Firefox experience.

                                                                                                      I tried to use Firefox on my laptop. Site icons from bookmarks don’t sync for whatever reason (I looked up the ticket and it seems to be a policy problem where the perfect is the enemy of the kinda good enough), but it’s just a minor annoyance. The laptop is also pretty old and for that or whatever reason has hardware accelerated video decoding blacklisted in Firefox with no way to turn it back on (it used to work a few years ago with Firefox until it didn’t), so I can’t even play 720p YouTube videos at an acceptable framerate and noise level.

                                                                                                      I tried to use Firefox on my Android phone. Bookmarks were completely useless with no way to organize them. I couldn’t even organize on a desktop Firefox and sync them over to the phone since they just came out in some random order with no way to sort them alphabetically. There was also something buggy with the history where clearing history didn’t quite clear history (pages didn’t show up in history, but links remained colored as visited if I opened the page again) unless I also exited the app, but I don’t remember the details exactly. At least I could use UBO.

                                                                                                      This was all within the last month. I used to use Firefox before I used Chrome, but Chrome just works right now.

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                                                                                                        I definitely understand that Chrome works better for many users and you gave some good examples of where firefox fails. My point was that people need to use and support firefox despite it being worse than chrome in many ways. I’m asking people to make sacrifices by taking a principled position. I also recognize most users might not do that, but certainly, tech people might!? But maybe I’m wrong here, maybe the new kids don’t care about an open internet.

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                                                                                                      I agree strongly with the author about diversity of browser layout-engines, but have held an even more extreme viewpoint about internet infrastructure (hard and soft) for a rather long while:

                                                                                                      • I think internet access (ISPs, wireless carriers) should be classified as utilities, complete with strong regulations and oversight.
                                                                                                      • I think internet search & retrieval (Google, Bing) should be classified as utilities, same as above, with perhaps some help to encourage the existence multiple providers.
                                                                                                      • I think email should be provided by the us postal service, with private carriers for those who want it.

                                                                                                      None of these things make sense anymore as products of private-only, consumer-hostile, for-profit and increasingly monopolizing companies.

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                                                                                                        I like one and two, but I don’t see how three would change much. There are already alternative email providers, but people use Gmail because it’s a) better and b) has shit loads of marketshare. I think that perhaps doing the same you suggested for the internet and search engines to email would be more effective.

                                                                                                        Unfortunately, I’m quite skeptical that any of this is ever happening =/

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                                                                                                          Those are all things I’m very in favor of, but they seem like completely unachievable dreams with the way things go in the U.S.

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                                                                                                            All of these would kill the internet. Except 3, 3 makes some sense as an option.

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                                                                                                            All nice and well but the author can’t leave us hanging about that profile photo story. What did they end up doing???

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                                                                                                              isn’t that the joke?

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                                                                                                                Well, to me all that sounded more like a pep-talk (somewhat for the author themselves) than a tight comedy post. So, I would be surprised that was a joke.

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                                                                                                              It’s not working because Microsoft just ports all the good features of F# into C# :)

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                                                                                                                looks like an old writeup but thanks for posting it - I always have to look up docs when I want to write a CTE.

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                                                                                                                  Congrats Drew! Looks really cool, will be nabbing a $2/month plan. Modest suggestion: if all the plans offer the same features then I think they should really be the same price, otherwise I think it violates some theory of economics, or at the very least is confusing.

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                                                                                                                    The idea is that, because sr.ht is not bootstrapped by investors, the users are the investors. You should choose the plan which matches your financial ability and investment in sr.ht, with the understanding that the money goes directly to supporting the site. It’s a novel financing model, we’ll see how well it works out!

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                                                                                                                      I see, so you’re saying that it’s not so much that I am your customer by purchasing a plan but instead I am your investor. Another confusion arises in that case since investors usually acquire some ownership in the company in return for their investment. It seems more like I’m a donor than either investor or customer. If that’s the case, and you’re committing to using the incoming revenue purely for supporting the site, I suggest setting up some sort of nonprofit entity (e.g. in US would be 501(c)(3) or 501(c)(6)) and using donation language instead of product/customer language in the billing section. it would be nice to be able to use this as a tax deduction as well!

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                                                                                                                        It’s entirely possible that I will share ownership with the users, or set up a nonprofit in the future. For now, this is a simpler approach. Thanks for the feedback!

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                                                                                                                        Reminds me of ‘name your price’ music on BandCamp. I hope it works out.

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                                                                                                                        It’s BYO price discrimination. :)

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                                                                                                                          Just signed up for the $5/month plan, because seriously, this is about 1.5 Lattes in a high end coffee shop, and for sure, I am spending more on coffee each month than that, … @SirCmpwn: I already love the taste of the site.