1. 1

    I use jove for many of the same things, and I’d like to add another advantage: It allows full-speed typing. Emacs, for example, does not. You have to start it, wait for a window to become ready, then resume typing.

    Editors like jove, nano and vi accept commands from the moment you’re done invoking them, even before the kernel has started paging the editor’s executable into memory.

    1. 3

      I only have to open Emacs once every time I restart my machine, so it is non-problem for me.

      1. 1

        I’ve not used Jove. Is it Emacs without the lisp, like mg or zile? I use mg on OpenBSD sometimes, but forget whether I’m in Emacs and get frustrated when things don’t work.

        I can’t say I’ve ever experienced the problem you describe, but I work quite slowly. I just timed opening Emacs from cold, and it takes just over a second. It takes less than half a second after that, even without using emacsclient. That’s still fifty times slower than nano, true, but it seems to grab keypresses from the get go as well - every time I started typing as soon as I pressed enter and all the text showed up.

        1. 2

          Yes. Jonathan (whose last name I’ve forgotten) wanted an emacs and wrote one, in C. I tested a couple of curses-based editors with emacs keybindings and found jove best, and it’s stayed with me for 25 years. Maybe mg or zile are better nowadays. I do use emacs itself for when I’m working in the editor, but jove’s my to-go when I’m working on the command line.

          I know that a lot of people either never work on the command line and/or can’t type quickly. But for those of us who can type quickly and do work with command lines, being able to type at the editor without any pause is valuable.

          When I looked for jove, emacs itself would either accept keypresses at once or require you to wait for it to open an X11 window depending on…. I think there were two conditions, but I can’t remember. It’s been so long.

          1. 1

            Did jove use to be “joe” (Joe’s Own Editor)? I think it used the slang library, like the slrn newsreader.

            1. 2

              You might be thinking of JED there - that one definitely used slang. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JED_(text_editor)

              1. 1

                Correct, someone named Joseph created JOE:

                https://joe-editor.sourceforge.io/

              2. 2

                No, that’s a completely different editor written around the same time. Someone named Joe wrote one, someone named Jonathan wrote the other.

              3. 1

                Oh I see, I forgot that Emacs had an X11 version. I always run Emacs in the terminal so don’t need to wait for a window to spawn. I’m glad you’re happy with Jove!

          1. 45

            Secretly? /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ is the opposite of secret.

            1. 12

              Just a click baiting title, there is nothing secret about it.

              1. 10

                I wanted to comment exactly this. Don’t you see it in the output of apt update?

                Also, raspbian is not the only linux distribution one can run on RaspberryPI. At top of my head: Debian, Fedora and Alpine run on Raspberry PI 2+. And that doesn’t include the three major BSD systems which all run on it as well…

              1. 33

                A self-hosted instance of Miniflux!

                1. 2

                  My main problem with Miniflux is that it do not support Google Reader API so the new releases of Reeder do not work with it.

                  1. 1

                    I’m using Miniflux with Reeder 4 and it is working fine with Fever API. The latest version of Reeder doesn’t support Fever anymore?

                    1. 2

                      Yes. Additionally the Fever API is limited to only support reading, there is no support for adding new subscriptions which greatly reduce the usability of Reeder.

                  2. 1

                    I also recently switched from TTRSS to Miniflux. Not entirely happy with microflux on android.

                  1. 11

                    I haven’t desired an OS war debate since about 2005. I understand that this isn’t fair since I’m probably laying down kindling and not asking for a flame war.

                    I would switch much faster if I had iTerm2 (don’t say tmux, alacritty unless they are 1:1) and a few other tools. I’ve run Gentoo as my main machine and many Linux-es in the past (all I can do for street cred folks). Xcode, the app store, economics or something else apparently just makes high quality UIs possible because it’s not the same? Monodraw, Alfred, Pixelmator and a few others. There are a few I could budge on. The Mac apps are very polished, fonts are the best and usually the UX is good (iTerm’s options boxes are kind of insane). I keep flirting with the idea but then I make a list of stuff I’d miss.

                    Linux has upsides too. It’s really what I want, a Unix box. I could ditch tiling window manager clones or near-misses and get a full-on tiled thing going (of course the browser kinda of kinks the terminal based flow but whatever). That’s not my issue. My issue is that Linux is great on the server. Linux (unix) excels at text but its desktop and GUI layer has always been weird. I don’t want it to be like this. If Electron was magically as fast as QT (etc) and made it easy to layout GUIs like Xcode, maybe that would be it? I just don’t know what the issues are in the GUI space. Armchair analyst mode though: people pay for mac software.

                    This just continues to be true: computers suck, macs suck the least. But everything can change with time.

                    1. 6

                      I’m not a fan of tmux and alacritty either but found kitty to be a great cross platform alternative to iTerm. At least if it’s the panes and tabs that you want.

                      Much more pleasant configuration too if you like to keep clean dotfiles.

                      1. 2

                        What does iTerm2 do that’s not in something like gnome-terminal?

                        I use both and I’d like to know about any cool features I’m missing in iTerm2.

                        They look the same to me from my Linux accustomed experience, what am I missing?

                        1. 2

                          Does anything else have “native tmux” yet? That is, tmux windows/panes are just iTerm windows/panes—you don’t need to do any tmux key commands at all. Makes persistent server sessions very nice. I believe the iTerm author implemented the protocol for this in tmux but I’m not sure if any other emulator has adopted it.

                          1. 1

                            iTerm has more customization knobs than gnome-terminal (or any other Terminal emulator I’ve used) by an order of magnitude.

                            1. 1

                              Same, would love to know what I was missing from iTerm2. I don’t use tmux integration, not sure about other cools features that I missed. But one thing I noticed is it’s significant slower thang the default terminal application.

                              1. 1

                                Good question so I’ll do my best. Most of this is taste but I hope I can explain a feeling.

                                1. The hotkeys are nice (to me). They are quicker than leaders and are basically the same as Chrome tabs. Cmd+T for new tab, Cmd+Alt+Arrows. And of course mac apps flash the menu item and have hints next to them. But that’s iTerm leveraging MacOS.
                                2. The pane splitting is easy. Moving panes is easy. Moving panes to windows or the opposite, easy-ish.
                                3. Broadcasting input to all tabs is neat (but rarely used). Tmux does this too.
                                4. The fonts look nice (because MacOS). I’m sure other terminals have 256-color and image support. iTerm was early on this (to me). Powerline fonts, all the fluff.
                                5. The fullscreen has native and non-native options, so it’s quick and has survived the Apple OS changes.
                                6. I use a global hotkey for a dev log described here.
                                7. You can temp fullscreen a pane with shift+Cmd+enter. It has an overlay telling you you are in this mode.
                                8. Like someone said, the customizations are great. Just one example: you can dim panes on unfocus to your liking. Even not graphics dimming, font color dimming. It’s great.
                                9. The tmux stuff is neat, a bit weird (root window has to stay open). Haven’t used it a lot.

                                I’ve tried the windows options. Putty (not the same thing) hasn’t changed in decades. ConEmu or Hyper is close. Hyper is a bit slow (maybe things have changed). ConEmu is close with WSL. But I’m biased because of muscle memory!

                                Sorry, getting off-topic. Back to the OP, I agree in the sentiment. I’m spooked by the changes. It’s consumer facing more and more. But I don’t know if any of these things are nails in the coffin or the community will continue to workaround/adapt. There have been breaking changes on major OS versions for a long time. People working sometimes wait when they optimize for stability. But, OP, I hear you. 🌻

                              2. 2

                                Yeah, it’s only a matter of time. After a recent upgrade of iTerm2 my whole screen would periodically flicker wildly. Occasionally my machine (2019 Pro) would reboot. I temporarily downgraded to Terminal, and everything settled down. My text mode apps also seemed snappier. My lesson from all this: to always be on the lookout for costs when things change. Even when the change seems pleasant (timestamps on specific lines in iTerm2, tmux integration, lots of other lovely stuff). Because we suck at changing things at scale without regression.

                                1. 2

                                  I agree with this. And your description of Linux feeling different from macOS, at least in terms of GUIs, reminds me of this blog entry: https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2019/12/04/there-is-no-linux-platform-1 IMO, to make a Linux computer feel like a real Unix desktop you need a controlling entity to smooth over the edges. Like Android or Chrome OS or even Raspberry Pi OS. Of course, purists would say “this isn’t the GNU/Linux I know”. They’d be right. But from what I can tell, we don’t even have that option.

                                1. 19

                                  Forgive me if this is gauche, but what is wrong with simply using bashisms? Outside of embedded contexts, where you want everything in Busybox, but writing shell scripts in just POSIX shell just seems like a tortured dialect.. The extensions are legitimately useful, so it’s also a question of why other shells haven’t implemented it.

                                  Also curious is not wanting to use Shellcheck, even if it’s just for (skippable) CI-side tests. Shellcheck was the first tool that made writing shell scripts tolerable for me.

                                  1. 4

                                    Some POSIX operating systems don’t come with Bash out of the box, notably the BSDs. As such Bash is rarely used in them even if it is available. Even MacOS switched its default shell to ZSH.

                                    Generally though I think dropping the dependency on Bash increases compatibility across the board and removes an unneeded dependency. Both of which are always welcome.

                                    1. 3

                                      I don’t mind taking dependencies if it helps you reduce complexity elsewhere, especially if the cost is amortized elsewhere.

                                      1. 4

                                        You’re not the one maintaining thousands of rc scripts or build scripts for a distro/flavor. Or at least I assume you’re not. The tradeoffs communities make usually have a reason and just because you don’t see it or understand it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

                                        1. 3

                                          But this is not about thousands of rc scripts. This issue is about one script used during the go build process. On majority of systems it will need a dependency that is immediately satisfied. On some minority it will require a single package.

                                          1. 4

                                            The GitHub issue appears to be a troll issue, and I agree it doesn’t really matter much in the context of the Golang toolchain. However I was responding to the thread which was speaking more generically about dependencies and script maintenance.

                                            1. 3

                                              Well technically at least 3.

                                              But I agree in general. I fail to see why requiring bash is such a huge deal (I have read the comments here as well as the comments on the GitHub issue).

                                        2. 2

                                          Even MacOS switched its default shell to ZSH.

                                          For a while, not any more.

                                          1. 1

                                            What is it now?

                                            1. 1

                                              I’m fairly sure it’s back to bash.

                                        3. 3

                                          One of the comments from that issue:

                                          Just had my first experience with Go, which was nice. The one thing that surprised me a little bit was that bash was required to build. On OpenBSD the standard shell is a hardened ksh. bash is avoided everywhere in base so I had to install that, no biggie, but the question I would phrase in the spirit of portability and reducing dependencies is “why require more if technically all you need is POSIX shell”? I’m wondering if such a change would be desirable, aside from the question who’s going to make it happen.

                                          Also, doesn’t macOS uses zsh by default now? But probably, it’ll be compatible with the bash scripts used here?

                                          1. 3

                                            It seems like just another dependency to me though - and certainly one common enough most people will have, and run on most people’s systems.

                                            1. 3

                                              doesn’t macOS uses zsh by default now?

                                              Yes, but they’re not removing bash from the standard system AFAIK

                                              1. 2

                                                Yes, that comment is from me. It is my first encounter with the Go community, so after discovering they don’t completely dismiss the idea itself, I thought let’s first get some broader opinions and have a discussion with a community I’m part of before I continue this discussion in the Go thread.

                                                Also, doesn’t macOS uses zsh by default now?

                                                idd

                                                But probably, it’ll be compatible with the bash scripts used here?

                                                Good question, from a superquick check I can say it doesn’t right out fail like it does on OpenBSD with ksh.

                                              2. 2

                                                Forgive me if this is gauche, but what is wrong with simply using bashisms?

                                                Nothing, bash really makes our lives easier, the extensions are really useful. Some people wants to only use POSIX sh, just because it is a “standard”. Some people just hates bash because it is popular.

                                              1. 15

                                                Nice to see the wave of defectors from OSX back to more open platforms continue!

                                                I agree I’ve always found XCode frustrating to use and obscenely ponderous to set up as well. It’s not so much that it’s a GUI or that it’s complicated, I think you could say the same for VIsual Studio Code or Pycharm both of which I love, it’s that it gets in the way of what I’m trying to do 100% of the time.

                                                And yeah, the MagSafe connector was a thing of beauty. My wife is clinging to her 2012 Macbook Pro for dear life :)

                                                You also didn’t mention keyboard, although I realize I’m more sensitive to that than most. I find it interesting that the keyboard on my $200 Pinebook Pro is several orders of magnitude better than the one on my work issued 2018 Macbook Pro which feels like typing on squishy oatmeal.

                                                1. 7

                                                  Sadly, in my social bubble, I see more people moving from OSX to Windows/WSL than to Linux/BSD.

                                                  1. 3

                                                    That doesn’t surprise me at all, and I assume that’s the largest migration direction between the “three” platforms. Most average Joe developers are already using Windows for most of their computing needs (games) and probably only used macOS because they “had to” because work involves either a Linux server or an iOS app.

                                                  2. 6

                                                    I’m not sure where you get the idea that there is a “wave of defectors from OSX”, the post was most likely written to be posted specifically here. I like the community and I don’t want to be that guy but this community is a small, irrelevant echo chamber in terms of world-wide OS adoption.

                                                    1. 3

                                                      I totally agree. There HAS been a wave of people leaving the OSX platform for various reasons, but as another poster wrote they’re not all migrating to FLOSS environments.

                                                      A number of them are choosing Windows instead. I myself dual boot and enjoy the best of both worlds :)

                                                      Also, nobody other than Apple actually has hard numbers on this.

                                                    2. 5

                                                      I just bought the 2020 Macbook Pro and the keyboard is from the different planet than 2018’s, I really like it! The price was painful but there are music softwares I need daily that don’t run in Linux so I don’t really have a choice.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Which one? The one with no Esc key? No thanks.

                                                        1. 4

                                                          They brought back the escape key :)

                                                          1. 1

                                                            The new one has physical Esc-key.

                                                      1. 9

                                                        Because it’s the one text editor that doesn’t murder me with RSI.

                                                        1. 4

                                                          Same. I tried using Emacs for a while and the constant need to hold down modifier keys made it physically painful.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            As an Emacs user I have to agree. It’s just that the benefits I get from using Emacs outweigh the pain…

                                                            1. 3

                                                              vim user rolls eyes… Causing physical pain in a completely avoidable way imho means that emacs is not meeting very basic prerequisites, however great the rest may be :)

                                                              1. 2

                                                                Ever heard of Evil mode? It is possible to get the best of both worlds, and I have trouble understanding why someone wouldn’t want that.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  I don’t know if it’s avoidable, beyond taking breaks from time to time. I’ve tried emulation packages (viper, evil), and different editing ideas (lispy, objed) but they always confuse me.

                                                            2. 1

                                                              I had this problem with Emacs until I learned how to press Ctrl key with the palm instead of the pinky finger.

                                                              1. 5

                                                                Wait, doesn’t everyone remap caps lock to control when they set up a new computer?!

                                                            1. 4

                                                              Ultimately, suffering from Ubuntu’s decisions is a choice.

                                                              There’s plenty of options, when it comes to Linux distributions. I find most of them are not Ubuntu, and thus do not irritate me in a regular basis.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                Or you could just ignore snap, Ubuntu is a fine distro.

                                                                1. 7

                                                                  Doesn’t look like that will remain an option. It doesn’t make sense for them to maintain snap and deb of a given app indefinitely, and they definitely seem convinced that snap is the easier option, so you should be expecting debs of popular apps to disappear. Ubuntu-maintained ones, at least.

                                                                  1. 4

                                                                    I prefer the path of least resistance. For me that’s Arch. YMMV.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  I just happen to be bored with my current monospace font. Anyone could recommend a font from this article that suitable for programming?

                                                                  1. 7

                                                                    I think I had a similar journey. IIRC, I started with an iPhone, then a Mac Mini, and then finally a MacBook Air (and then another.)

                                                                    I was drawn to having a polished desktop on top of *nix.

                                                                    But then the polish started wearing off with every new OSX release. There would be UI bugs.

                                                                    I also started seeing various annoying differences and incompatibilities when trying to use the *nix part for development. Eventually I started doing dev inside a Debian and then Fedora VM.

                                                                    And then Apple started locking down the OS, and with each release, I could do less, or would have to jump through hoops to unlock.

                                                                    Finally, I would read online about flaky hardware, faulty keyboards, etc.

                                                                    By then I was already doing most of my work inside the VM, and only using the OSX part for playing music and video and such.

                                                                    So now I got a cheap refurbished ThinkPad, and it works! It works great! And I can do whatever I want with the OS.

                                                                    And if there is a problem, which certainly happens, I can usually fix it with a quick web-search.

                                                                    Yes, the touchpad sucks, and I don’t use it. Most of the time I use external keyboard and mouse, or I can fall back to the nub.

                                                                    1. 6

                                                                      I can’t speak for general audience, or even 200 people that the other, deleted comment mentioned, but my experience with Linux has always been superior. People get to Linux, get amazed, learn about the bugs and quirks and then just start living with what they need. Just minimal sweet of features that gets the job done. Sure, some return to windows. (And some come back again.) Some switch to a Mac. (And also cone back.) But a lot of people my rounds that have made the switch are not going back and are far more satisfied with whatever the flavor they run then with, say, windows or a Mac.

                                                                      Me, personally? I’m a diehard. I don’t hate windows 10 from work, but I’m often frustrated by it. Not the software, just the OS. Gets in the way between me and the software I’m trying to use.

                                                                      I’ve tried using a mac - and relatively recently too, just before the touchbar. And have a few Mac’s around - wife’s macbook and imac. But I always miss one thing or another. And macos GUI does things just enough in the wrong way that I’m unhappy.

                                                                      Linux? No problem. I did my share of distro hoping. I did my part of customizing anything and everything. Now I just go with defaults, with my few personal tweaks where they matter to me. And then I do the job.

                                                                      1. 5

                                                                        You reminded me that my ThinkPad came with Windows 10, and I humored it for about a day, but gave up.

                                                                        You’re so right about “living with what you need”.

                                                                        I still don’t know how to adjust the display brightness on this thing, nor the rest of the special keys. The built-in WiFi still doesn’t work, and I use a USB one which is plug-and-play.

                                                                        Recently, Fedora upgraded the kernel and the WiFi stopped working, and I had to roll back to the previous one.

                                                                        Oh well.

                                                                        Windows 10 was so freaking frustrating all around, I would never trade.

                                                                        Edit: Actually, after I upgraded to Fedora, and before I was gifted a compatible WiFi, while I was only able to network over Ethernet, was one of the most productive times on this computer. I still enjoy being able to unplug my network.

                                                                        1. 6

                                                                          Obviously this is a matter of personal tolerance but I feel like you have perfectly illustrated why I found using Linux on the desktop so immensely frustrating and eventually ended up on macOS anyway. If I installed a kernel update that stopped my Wi-Fi from working, I would be livid. I would already be unhappy if I had to resort to an adapter for something the laptop is already supposed to do in the first place.

                                                                          Things like this are okay if you are OK with tinkering (or have the time to). I used to have the patience for that but I just don’t anymore. I need the computer to get out of the way so that I can do what I need to do. I would argue that if you aren’t really a tinkerer and don’t have great aspirations to pick it apart or to customise, then macOS gets the job done just fine. Equally I understand why tinkerers might find it frustrating or limiting, so there’s that too.

                                                                          I just don’t want to have to resolve package conflicts or roll back kernel versions, or to spend six hours trying to understand why something that happened during a package upgrade has rendered my system unusable.

                                                                          1. 4

                                                                            I’m kind of mad about the kernel, but rolling back was as easy as selecting the previous version at boot time.

                                                                            if a Mac upgrade broke something, which happened to me before, i wouldn’t even know where to begin if i wanted to roll back.

                                                                            I’m not much of a tinkerer, and for the most part i haven’t had to do much.

                                                                            1. 3

                                                                              That happens with Fedora or Arch, as they update the kernel every time upstream release a new version. Just stick with Debian or Ubuntu LTS if you want your machine to be just works.

                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                I was a loyal Debian user for about 20 years, but similar issues drove me to Fedora.

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  For me it’s the opposite, never had a problem with rolling releases in Arch but major upgrades in Ubuntu often failed. Also, you can easily use an LTS kernel in Arch.

                                                                            2. 4

                                                                              The thing is, I’m going to get frustrated by my computer OS I choose. Either it will be an ad platform with a program loader hanging off the side, become more developer-hostile with every new release, or be kinda weird and need a little tinkering to get things the way I like it. So I chose GNU, paid that setup cost once, kept my configs up-to-date and portable and now I have a computing environment that respects my needs and wants and should keep working for a very long time.

                                                                          1. 14

                                                                            I am amazed at how Canonical always tries to make up their own technology instead of embracing existing open-source projects… and it NEVER works, and they keep trying it anyway. Let’s look at the list:

                                                                            • Upstart vs. systemd
                                                                            • Mir vs. Wayland
                                                                            • Snap vs. Flatpak
                                                                            • Unity vs. GNOME

                                                                            Am I missing any? I feel like there’s more. Does anyone know why the hell they do this? Is it them and Red Hat having a technological pissing match that Red Hat usually wins (systemd and Flatpak come out of Red Hat after all)? Or do they just dream of making a de-facto standard that gives them lots of power, which this article seems to imply?

                                                                            Either way, good on Mint for pushing back against this nonsense.

                                                                            1. 26

                                                                              Note that Upstart considerably predates systemd.

                                                                              1. 18

                                                                                Snaps predate Flatpak.

                                                                                IMHO, what happens is that Canonical validates the existence of alternatives by beginning work, causing alternative efforts to start up or for existing alternative efforts to gain momentum. Then a certain vocal faction publicly trash Canonical’s efforts and try to swing the community towards one of the alternatives.

                                                                                None of this is intended to diminish the value of the alternatives. Alternatives are good. They’ve always existed in the our ecosystem (eg. sendmail, qmail, postfix, exim; apache, nginx; etc). But in the case of a Canonical-led effort, a specific vocal crowd makes it political.

                                                                                An exception is Unity vs. GNOME. That happened after GNOME didn’t want to follow Canonical’s design opinions on how the desktop should work (even though they represented the majority of GNOME desktop users!), and refused patches. But then, as above, politics happened anyway.

                                                                                1. 16

                                                                                  Author’s note: I use RedHat as a stand-in for the entire RedHat/CentOS/Fedora ecosystem a lot in this.

                                                                                  tl;dr Redhat is trying to address pain points for existing users, Ubuntu is going after new markets. Both are laudable goals, but Ubuntu’s strategy is riskier.

                                                                                  I think a lot of this comes down to market demand. With both the “Mir v Wayland” and “Unity v GNOME” RedHat and Canonical were both trying to address a market need.

                                                                                  With Wayland and GNOME, Redhat wanted a more modern display server and desktop environment so that it’s existing customers didn’t have to deal with the big ol’ security hole that is X. (Don’t get me wrong, I love X11 and still think it’s valuable, but I think RedHat’s market disagrees).

                                                                                  With Mir and Unity, Ubuntu wanted a display server and DE that would scale from a phone to a multi-monitor workstation. This is a laudable goal, and it did see a market need to address.

                                                                                  The difference is, Ubuntu was trying to address a market that it wanted while Redhat was trying to address the needs of a market that it actually had. Redhat has tons of customers actively using Wayland and GNOME for their intended purpose, and that gives a project momentum. Ubuntu also had loads of customers using Mir and Unity, but for only one of the multiple purposes that it was intended to be used for. Engineering always has trade-offs, designing a display server and DE for such a wide array of purposes is bound to have rough edges for any single one of those purposes. Ubuntu was asking it’s primary market, desktops and laptops, to suffer those rough edges for the greater Canonical purpose.

                                                                                  Even with snap v flatpak, again Ubuntu’s goals are much wider with snap than Redhat’s are with Flatpak, judging from what I’ve seen. Flatpak is a way for Redhat to distribute software to Linux/systemd in a way that’s more robust than the current RPM method, and Fedora is actively using flatpaks as a base to their Silverblue variant. whereas with snap, I think that Ubuntu wants to be the one stop shop for distributing software on Linux. Again: engineering, trade-offs, rough edges, etc.

                                                                                  The Redhat method of integrating the new package format seems to be coming up with an entirely different distribution to leverage flatpak functionality to it’s fullest while kinks are worked out . Canonical’s method seems to be: “Let’s shove it into our flagship product, and work out the kinks there”. This comes with a lot of inherent risks.

                                                                                  1. 5

                                                                                    You could also mention bzr vs git/hg and like the other software you mention Bazaar(-NG) is essentially dead.

                                                                                    1. 7

                                                                                      On Bazaar, there’s a very interesting retrospective here: https://www.jelmer.uk/pages/bzr-a-retrospective.html

                                                                                      One quote I think is quite relevant to the current discussion:

                                                                                      “Some people claimed Bazaar did not have many community contributions, and was entirely developed inside of Canonical’s walled garden. The irony of that was that while it is true that a large part of Bazaar was written by Canonical employees, that was mostly because Canonical had been hiring people who were contributing to Bazaar - most of which would then ended up working on other code inside of Canonical.”

                                                                                    2. 5

                                                                                      Upstart predates sytemd, and pretty successful, even Redhat adopts it for RHEL.

                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                        Note: Apparently Canonical’s solutions often are the forerunners and other people the copycats… I didn’t actually know that, thanks for the corrections. Frankly it makes the fact that their solutions tend to come out on the losing side even more interesting…

                                                                                      1. 14

                                                                                        It’s missing a crucial point:

                                                                                        • Be ready to give up good HiDPI screen support

                                                                                        I have a 4K monitor because it’s much more enjoyable to use for development, but it becomes a pure nightmare on Linux. I ended up installing an Hackintosh.

                                                                                        1. 8

                                                                                          Not necessarily. You can look at this as purely anecdotal, but my Dell Precision 5510, which I’ve had for about four years, has a HiDPI display on par with what I have on the MBP I use for work. Maybe this is down to the fact that I run Ubuntu on it, but I’m just using stock Intel and Nvidia drivers on it, depending on my use case.

                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                            Just curious, what makes it a nightmare?

                                                                                            1. 11

                                                                                              My most recent encounter with this is fractional scaling:

                                                                                              I have a 27’’ 4k monitor. I find that at this resolution, 1.5x scaling works best as 2x is too big and 1x is too small. With MacOS or even Windows, this is not a problem at all, with Linux it’s a can of worms:

                                                                                              • Xorg doesn’t natively support fractional scaling, Instead you have to rely on hacks or only scaling the fonts (which quite frankly, looks like shit). I never managed to make any of those hacks work reliably and consistently in all apps, eventually you’ll open that one app that uses Qt and you require yet another hack.

                                                                                              • Wayland does support fractional scaling, too bad that not all apps support Wayland, most notably Firefox. I tried running Firefox with the experimental Wayland backend with fractional scaling on, and everything looked blurry, it’s just not there yet.

                                                                                              Now, I’m sure for all of those issues there are 10 different workarounds to try and things to tweak to make things better, but I can’t be bothered to do any of that when in macOS (or even Windows) it Just Works™.

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                                                                                                Just the fact that the ArchWiki page on HiDPI has a comprehensive list of required hacks is another example of what I’m referring to.

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                                                                                                  Have you tried with KDE? I’m curious because I’m planning on using HiDPI with 1.25x scaling.

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                                                                                                    Yes, with KDE it’s slightly better but still not as good or smooth as Windows and macOS in my opinion.

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                                                                                                    Latest versions of Gnome in Ubuntu 20 have fractional scaling and it’s been set and forget for me.

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                                                                                                      Ubuntu ’s fractional scaling is using significant more CPU power compare to 2x scaling.

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                                                                                                  I tried switching to Ubuntu recently (not for the first time) and ended up going the Hackintosh route, too. For me the breaking straw was not being able to adjust mouse wheel scroll settings in a way that would work everywhere and didn’t seem to come with caveats or be labelled as a hack.

                                                                                                  Setting up a Hackintosh certainly wasn’t without its hassles, but having got there I’m very happy with it. I also have a Macbook and an iPhone, so that is another motivation to stay in the Apple camp (vendor lock-in, I guess?)

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                                                                                                    I’m surprised you had mouse wheel woes. Do you have a special or fancy mouse or something? Or want very specific wheel behaviour?

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                                                                                                      I just have a normal mouse, and TBH I’m a little fuzzy on what happened now. It could very well have been that if I has been using Gnome (or KDE, whichever one I wasn’t using) then it wouldn’t have been a problem at all, but what I really wanted was MacOS anyway, so I just did the Hackintosh thing instead. I kind of took “well I can’t get this basic thing to work right” as an omen.

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                                                                                                    I use Xubuntu 20.04 on my X1 carbon and desktop with a 27” 4K monitor. Both work totally fine with HiDPI. The main issue I’ve had was when I plugged my laptop into non-HiDPI monitors, I had to lower the DPI for the monitors and that made everything on the laptop small.

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                                                                                                      The distros the article mentions are ElementaryOS, Pop!_OS, and Fedora Workstation. I believe all of those have had great native HiDPI support “out of the box” for a few years now.

                                                                                                      I totally get not loving the aesthetic of GNOME or whatever, especially bumped up at x2, but I think it’s cool that Linux lets us customize everything end to end to our heart’s desire. If we’re going for a more custom setup, totally agree that it can require doing some custom tweaks to get a good HiDPI experience and it won’t be completely automagic.

                                                                                                      I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s all a pure nightmare on Linux as a whole. Beginners can have a good experience, experts can have a good experience, crossing that valley can be painful.

                                                                                                      Also worth noting that most of the ArchWiki page on HiDPI refers to outdated workarounds that are no longer required, though not all.

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                                                                                                        Honestly, yeah. I purposely bought a normal DPI display just to avoid this pain. It’s never gonna be perfect. Apps aren’t gonna scale right, even with fractional scaling. Other apps might scale right, but be blurry. It’s gonna drive you crazy.

                                                                                                        Just get over the loss aversion, buy a good normal DPI monitor, and get back to work. I’m 100% satisfied with normal DPI.

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                                                                                                        Lenovo still hasn’t fixed the CPU throttle bug on my X1C6. At this point, I doubt that it will ever get fixed.

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                                                                                                          I know that it’s is possible to use FreeBSD for development, but I don’t think anyone should, practically speaking.

                                                                                                          A post like “Can you use Windows for a developer machine in 2020” would interest me more. Because it seems like everyone is either using Mac or Linux these days.

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                                                                                                            I don’t think anyone should, practically speaking.

                                                                                                            Why?

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                                                                                                              The reason is sum up nicely in the article already. IMO, if the software selection is the same, if I still use Gnome, still use bash, still use Emacs there is little reason to choose the OS with inferior hardware and community supported.

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                                                                                                                Why should the default assumption be that you use Linux unless you have some especially good reason to use BSD? If FreeBSD meets your needs and Linux meets your needs, why should that mean that you use Linux?

                                                                                                                Personally, after using OpenBSD on one of my laptops for a couple of weeks I’m keen to use it wherever I can. It’s incredibly well documented, stable and simple. It’s just well designed through and through. OpenBSD vs Linux today feels like Linux vs Windows did 12-15 years ago: limited laptop hardware support (only really thinkpads can be relied upon to work) and poor power/thermal management in exchange for much better design, system layout and understandability.

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                                                                                                                  If FreeBSD meets your needs and Linux meets your needs, why should that mean that you use Linux?

                                                                                                                  Speaking just for myself, if both are equally goods for my needs, I’ll surely go with the more popular option.

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                                                                                                                  The software selection being the same is only part of the story. If you can get the same software packages you need for Linux in FreeBSD, you’ll likely see the underlying system is far more stable and performs better. That’s the big advantage.

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                                                                                                                    Debian/Ubuntu is stable enough for daily usage, I wouldn’t ask for more stability. As in your article

                                                                                                                    Once you get it configured, it can “stay out of your way” while you get real work done

                                                                                                                    I has the same experience with Debian/Ubuntu. Maybe I’ll need to seriously gave BSD a try some day (I never manage to get it fully working on any hardware I had), but I’m pretty happy with Linux today.

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                                                                                                                      If you can get the same software packages you need for Linux in FreeBSD, you’ll likely see the underlying system is far more stable and performs better. That’s the big advantage.

                                                                                                                      This is only anecdotal evidence, but the last time I had a kernel panic it was when I tried FreeBSD. Do you have any quantitative evidence that FreeBSD is more stable and performs better?

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                                                                                                                  True! Though with WSL the Windows world is catching up. It’s not the same as actual Linux, but a step in the right direction.

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                                                                                                                    Why is it not the same? WSL2 actually runs a Linux kernel under HyperV. You can even run an X server and have the same graphical programs. The only thing that does not really work are Wayland applications (AFAIK).

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                                                                                                                      I think certain issues still exist (AFAIK?), but hopefully will be resolved soon.

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                                                                                                                        For me, filesystem issues are a complete deal breaker. I have no OS options at work and can only use Windows and while its a decent work machine, I still feel that my Linux workstation and laptop at home run rings around it.

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                                                                                                                  it took me too long to find Go’s flag package. Made cl arg parsing so much easier

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                                                                                                                    I found github.com/urfave/cli is more convenient to use than builtin flag package.

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                                                                                                                      They have a nice entry in GoByExample: https://gobyexample.com/command-line-flags

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                                                                                                                        love that site - that’s actually where I discovered flags

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                                                                                                                        What did you do before?

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                                                                                                                          i basically would try to implement arg parsing myself by treating an array of arguments (i think os.Argv… could be wrong) as a stack… I would pop off from the front and compare to check flags, assign optional values, etc.

                                                                                                                          I also have used someone’s getopt package for go: https://github.com/mattn/go-getopt

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                                                                                                                        Seriously, what is the point of this article?

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                                                                                                                          I just resigned on the laptops market. At first, people at coffee shops around the city looked surprised when I arrived carrying my desktop computer on my shoulders, but they got used to it. I would probably gave in and buy a laptop if I had to do it more often, but once or twice a week it’s fine.

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                                                                                                                            I love this post because I’m honestly not sure whether or not you’re joking.

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                                                                                                                              I get a real Atlas vibe from carrying a desktop on your shoulders.

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                                                                                                                                Color me interested as well!

                                                                                                                                @Bherzet, can you show us your setup at a coffee shop? :)

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                                                                                                                                How long do you spend in any given coffee shop?

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                                                                                                                                  also how far is the coffee shop from home ?

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                                                                                                                                  Pic or it didn’t happen.

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                                                                                                                                  Windows still clearly isn’t for me. And I wouldn’t recommend it to any of our developers at Basecamp. But I kinda do wish that more people actually do make the switch. Apple needs the competition.

                                                                                                                                  Oh how times have changed.

                                                                                                                                  I find that Windows, Mac, and Linux all frustrate me, but all for different reasons. My favourite OS is whichever one I used least recently.

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                                                                                                                                    When Mac stops working you throw money at the problem.
                                                                                                                                    When Linux stops working you throw time at the problem.
                                                                                                                                    When Windows stops working you throw the laptop at the wall.

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                                                                                                                                      I thought you reinstall Windows?

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                                                                                                                                        You reinstall Windows. Curse yourself for thinking that would fix the problem. The you throw laptop at the wall.

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                                                                                                                                      Care to elaborate on what bothers you about each operating system?

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                                                                                                                                        Not OP, but have an opinion:

                                                                                                                                        Windows

                                                                                                                                        • Ads
                                                                                                                                        • Updates (last week two of my USB ports just stopped working, although they worked fine in EFI and Linux.)
                                                                                                                                        • Licenses (buy a cheap license from shady sources or hundreds for a legit license from m$). If you’re lucky your laptop has a burned in license, but that’s not available for DIY PCs (like mine).
                                                                                                                                        • Lobbying against open source software (see the shit happening in Munich’s municipal IT)
                                                                                                                                        • Generally drivers (my last installation had intel wifi issues where unregularly but often the ping rose to multiple seconds and I had to restart the interface. after reinstalling I haven’t had that issue again)

                                                                                                                                        Linux (excerpt)

                                                                                                                                        • Sometimes the desktop is unlocked when waking up from suspend
                                                                                                                                        • Freezes on more modern desktops (gnome 3, kde plasma). this seems to be a bit better with MATE (my last experience with Ubuntu MATE was mostly rock solid)
                                                                                                                                        • Inconsistent behaviour like sometimes the space bar dismisses the gnome3 lock screen, but sometimes you have to use the mouse to drag it away. The spaces went straight to the password field
                                                                                                                                        • Gaming not ideal, although Valve is pretty cool for working on this
                                                                                                                                        • You (by default in all distros I know of) have to enter your password so many times. When istalling apps through a software center, for example. No easy to use biometrics.

                                                                                                                                        macOS

                                                                                                                                        • Haven’t used this in a while, seems to be the holy grail for me right now (sarcasm). Well, their hardware is super expensive, so that’s a downside.

                                                                                                                                        The list goes on and on and I tried to be brief.

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                                                                                                                                        My favourite OS is whichever one I used least recently

                                                                                                                                        Oh my, it is exactly the same for me, although I currently don’t want to buy a mac to go back to macOS again (which is the one I used the least recent and thus is the one that seems to be most tempting).

                                                                                                                                        Doesn’t it bother you? I waste so much time reinstalling OSes… It drives me crazy, but I can’t help it. Maybe you have some advice for coping? I wish I could just stick with one and learn to live with the downsides.

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                                                                                                                                        I think it’s a waste of time and effort. I, personally do not appreciate this kind of troll, sarcasm bug report. It’s the same with people posting unrelated gifs in github issue and think it’s funny.

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                                                                                                                                          I was being very obvious(through exaggeration), whereas a troll would hide it, I didn’t. The core idea is the sad state of ads that are making it more and more distracting and annoying to view online content.

                                                                                                                                          To see a search engine company, whose primary goal it was to make content easily found, now making it harder to actually consume and distract from the content, is disingenuous, and it conflicts with the essence of the product on a logical level. IOW “Hi, I’m G, I’ll let you find the content, but once found, I’ll make it hard for you to consume the content”.

                                                                                                                                          But it does indeed turn out to be a waste of time.

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                                                                                                                                            a search engine company, whose primary goal it was to make content easily found […]

                                                                                                                                            Google isn’t a search company, it’s an ad broker and delivery company.

                                                                                                                                            it conflicts with the essence of the product on a logical level

                                                                                                                                            No it doesn’t, it makes advertisers and Google more money.

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                                                                                                                                              No it doesn’t, it makes advertisers and Google more money.

                                                                                                                                              Well, for me the essence of their product is that I, as a user search for something, and then I read/watch the content uninterrupted. That would be ideal.