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    One thing I changed in my work PRs is explaining in details why this PR exist and what are the big changes, what can break, what to pay attention to… instead of just referencing a ticket. I think it makes it easier to review.

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      Having worked on a code base that is on its 3rd version control system and 4th ticketing system, I’ll tell you - put the comment in the commit message! It’s more likely that the info will survive there than migrated correctly in the ticketing system. This can make for some duplication, but isn’t too bad.

      The other point I usually make in favor of commit messages is that unlike other code comments, they reflect an exact point in time and

      1. 1

        they reflect an exact point in time and

        stroke?

        1. 3

          oops, thanks for catching that.

          an exact point in time and

          code changes afterwards might make them (obviously) out of sync with the comment. Regular comments can linger past the code they are commenting, but a commit message is tied to the code at that time.

      2. 4

        I have found that often my “rationale” sections on PRs are the longest-lasting written description of the business reasons behind changes. JIRA is not a reliable source of human information so much as it is a glorified to-do list on most projects I’ve been on.

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        Question for the group. If you use Stylus (or used to use Stylish), what do you use it for?

        I headed over the the userstyles.org site and most of the styles seem to be “dark themes” or other cosmetic changes like changing the background of a site. Are there more practical uses of the extension? Can it modify HTML or Javascript (where the real power would be), or is it CSS only?

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          other cosmetic changes like changing the background of a site

          You call it cosmetic changes, other people call it accessibility.

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            I use it to tweak the layout of some of the sites I use, like moving a fixed top navbar to the side, and making it smaller. Or making narrow columns wider. Small stuff like that, which make the browsing experience much more bearable. I rarely use the social or sharing aspects of it. I haven’t found anything useful there, and I’m not sharing my tweaks either, because they’re very personal anyway.

            I rarely use it to hide things, my adblocker can do that more conveniently indeed.

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              I apply a style of body { max-width: 800px; } on a few blogs that weren’t designed with wide browser windows in mind—they spill text across the entire width of the screen, which makes them really hard to read. (You could use your browser’s “reading mode” to fix this, too, but this CSS change usually does the job without breaking any layouts.)

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                Now that I’ve started using Dark Reader, I use Stylus for well-made, site-specific dark themes. Previously I was using the Gruvbox Dark Everywhere userstyle, but its shotgun approach leaves much to be desired. Beware: Dark Reader has some major performance issues on Firefox.

                Edit: My installed themes (which I enable along with Dark Reader after sunset): https://ptpb.pw/nUrG.png

                Edit 2: Also I enable the Firefox and Tree Style Tabs dark themes. This really needs to get more streamlined.

                Edit 3: And then I get to enable dark/night mode on sites that support it natively, one-by-one as I visit them. Sigh.

                1. 2

                  Man, Dark Reader is great. Thanks for bringing my attention to that.

                  1. 1

                    Funny that you mention this. I don’t often long for the days when I had a CSS styling addon installed, but exactly this Dark Reader page made me bob my head back 20cm. That page seems to be made for a mobile phone or tablet screen, not a 27” monitor. Wow.

                  2. 3

                    Fixing fonts on the most obnoxious websites.

                    1. 3

                      I like to use it to remove ads in core apps I use. I’d like to share the styles I create with others who use those apps. I use the free version of toggl, and they have a persistent, animated thing in the bottom-right corner that tells me the benefits of “going pro”. I just made a stylish thing to display: none the element which matches that rule. It’s great.

                      1. 1

                        Is there an advantage to that over the “block element” feature that exist in most ad blockers?

                        1. 1

                          I use brave and Firefox which have some built in blocking. I haven’t thought of that, but I’ll take a look!

                      2. 3

                        I used to use Stylish - and a predecessor the name of which has slipped my mind - to reduce the size of the UI in Firefox - smaller tabs, less wasted space -> more space for page content.

                        1. 2

                          i’m considering using it to shrink the gmail sidebar label font - they recently increased it from the same size as email body text to a size bigger, and it’s very annoying.

                          1. 1

                            I sometimes use it to tweak interfaces, like get rid of annoying panels or adding bold to certain elements

                            1. 1

                              I just started using this again after forgetting that it existed. Another forum I visit regularly now is ad free and doesn’t waste a bunch of whitespace where these were removed. I created an ironic one for hiding the ads for stylish for android on userstyles.org… :D Also, my day job involves using a console that has a lot of useless (to me) menu items - bye bye.

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                                Can it modify HTML or Javascript (where the real power would be), or is it CSS only?

                                Is it possible for extensions to request access only to modify CSS?

                                1. 4

                                  CSS can still exfiltrate sensitive page content (albeit attacks are harder to write).

                                  1. 1

                                    If you write your own CSS this is no longer a problem :P.

                                    1. 1

                                      That’s good to know. I’m going to do some reading on this, but do you have anything you recommend?

                                  2. 1

                                    There are two sites I frequent that have awful stylesheets that I can’t stand so I have custom stylesheets that make them look better.

                                  1. 3

                                    Hey I saw your post on /r/unixporn and it was a fun ride. Great job, haven’t seen the code yet, but it looks clean on the surface, just a few classes. Would love to see pictures of the different themes you have, if you can add them to the repo and I’d appreciate it to be notified.

                                    1. 1

                                      FYI, I didn’t create this, just saw it referenced in a blog post and shared it here. I’m not sure if the creator is a lobsters member. :)

                                      1. 2

                                        No problem then, I should look for the author’s post in the place I saw it for the first time.

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                                      the problem with css as a language is that it does not make conceptually simple things simple. particularly when it comes to the sort of neat, grid-based layout that app developers are used to from using frameworks like gtk, qt, windows forms, etc.

                                      if i can sketch a layout in a few minutes on a piece of paper, it should not take days of fighting with css to get it to work right, even if i (admittedly) don’t have much experience in front end development; there is no other UI library, toolkit or framework that i found so hard to get to grips with.

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                                        I’d argue that when using windows forms, qt, wpf, etc I find myself stifled by lack of freedom whenever I try to make an interface of any sort of complexity. Usually it takes a few lines of CSS (especially with modern CSS features like grid and flex) to get most layouts set up, where in native application frameworks, doing things like trying to style all buttons the same color are frustratingly difficult. In some things like windows forms, it’s practically impossible to style components as a group instead of individually.

                                        I don’t think this is a problem with CSS as it exists today, though the argument may have been valid 10 years ago.

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                                          I think this arises from a fundamental difference between UI philosophies.

                                          In web applications, your design should represent your unique brand. Buttons shouldn’t be buttons, but should be your buttons.

                                          In client apps, consistency is key, so all buttons should be the OS-standard buttons.

                                          The problem becomes, who is in control of their experience? My current desktop environment is light text on a dark background. Any website I load is apparently free to override this. I have to leverage browser extensions to trick websites into looking the way I want them to look. Worse- because my desktop foreground color is light, and my desktop background color is dark, I’m playing a game of roulette with websites. Some of them change the foreground text color, others change the background color, but many don’t change both, which means I’m left with dark-on-dark or light-on-light text.

                                          The fundamental unit of control should be the end user, not the designer. I should decide what a button looks like, and if I delegate that responsibility to another piece of software, it should be my OS/DE first. The worst thing about the web is the idea that each website needs to look their own way. Fuck your website. Buttons should always look like buttons. Text fields should always look like text fields. The font I set as my default font should be the only font that displays text for readability (feel free to use bullshit fonts for shit I don’t care about, like logos or ads, bullshit deserves bullshit).

                                          Users should be the owners of their experience. Always and forever. And yes, I do override your CSS. All the time.

                                          1. 2

                                            You mean with firvor that the content should be bundled rather than the content + the style + the platform ?

                                            I agree that extracting the actual content out of the website is getting challenging…

                                            No, I do not want to subscribe, just the text. No I wish to not send you cookies tokens. Oh, sub-sub menu to disable them, let’s do them all. Now what ? Ad blocking does not work ? Oh right, self promotion from publisher… And I can’t read with these 3em quotes all over the article.

                                            sight Do you serve the article as FTP or Gopher ? Hehe, no of course.

                                            Ah text browser does not even load the page, content loads through JavaScript.

                                            Ok, let’s stick to the website.

                                            1. 1

                                              And on publishing side: I may have lost 500~1000 words texts due to the session I was logged in timed out, this about a 50 times.

                                          2. 4

                                            Let’s not forget the stack that lies below: it just takes a few lines of CSS and a zillion of lines of code in the web browser. Chromium has more lines of code than FreeBSD, OpenBSD, DragonflyBSD and NetBSD altogether for instance.

                                          3. 6

                                            Yeah the native app toolkits rend to work on a “place things on a grid” strategy, whereas CSS is much more about “flowing the content according to the viewport”

                                            It was definitely the right choice in the end given smartphones becoming people’s main browsing devices, but it’s unlike what a lot o programmers were used to.

                                            I think once you think about the box model deeply, and stop trying to place things at certain parts of the screen, you can reach acceptance of the system more quickly.

                                            This post on CSS positioning was a huge eye opener for me in this regard. Stuff goes where it goes

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                                              Hmm often when conceptually simple things aren’t simple it may be because it’s not as simple as it appears. I use Bulma.io for css, and it’s pretty light as far as frameworks go, and gives me some sane defaults, but if I were actually a front end developer I can see where I would use less and less of the provided classes.

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                                                So, depending on what level of browser support you’re willing to work with, CSS grid is rather good at doing that sort of grid-based layout you speak of. At least at the basic levels where I have experience with it.

                                                If you’ve never used it, it is very worth a look

                                                1. 1

                                                  thanks, i’ll give it a try. this is what i ended up with using flex (which i thought was the way to go, but was way fiddlier than i expected)

                                                  1. 2

                                                    Flex is good for when you want things to flow in one dimension (with the possibility of wrapping to “fake” a second dimension) but don’t care about the exact sizes. For instance, a bunch of text blobs that you want to sit next to each other and spread out to take up the available space.

                                                    For actual grid stuff though, you should use CSS grid, which allows you to place elements in a 2 dimensional grid and give them exact sizes.

                                                    Both features have their uses cases, but neither is a complete solution in and of themselves.

                                                    Here are some good articles on the use cases for each:

                                                    Also here’s a comprehensive guide to using CSS Grid: https://css-tricks.com/snippets/css/complete-guide-grid/

                                                2. 2

                                                  Personally I’d take CSS over WPF or Winforms any day. CSS certainly has its annoyances, but I found it far less annoying to work with for anything nontrivial.

                                                1. 5

                                                  I loved that plot twist :D

                                                  1. 3

                                                    I can’t tell if this is genius or terrible. This asks the writer to structure everything as a sequence of horizontally stacked boxes, with explicit row breaks. My hunch is that this is probably fairly maintainable for simple layouts. Difficult to structure complex UIs like this, but good for the big boxes on the page?

                                                    1. 3

                                                      Aside from the div.clears this is pretty textbook flex stuff. What I don’t understand is why div.clear is even necessary. Just make a div.main for each row and you’re good. Empty divs for layout hacks isn’t very semantic, and the whole point of flex is to allow more layouts without hacks. This is almost as bad as the old float and clear hacks.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Hi div.clear is necessary because it determines the braking point. You can also use .columns container instead of .clear https://github.com/vladocar/Flex-One/blob/master/README.md#some-other-tweaks

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                                                          Why doesn’t putting each row’s columns in it’s own div.main work? And then possibly changing the class name to .row for semantics?

                                                          1. 2

                                                            Why doesn’t putting each row’s columns in it’s own div.main work?

                                                            Good Idea. It can work. I can rename the .main class in to .column class. The .fluid will become .row. And you can have infinite grid system with only two lines of CSS.

                                                            The result:

                                                              .column{display: flex; flex-flow: row wrap;  width: 80%; margin: 0 auto}
                                                              .row{flex:1}
                                                            
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                                                              That looks great :)

                                                    1. 2

                                                      Stopped reading at the casual hatred of capitalism. Can we get a philosophy article without throwing out the dog-whistle of capitalism being bad?

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                                                        I’ve covered the special relationship between capitalism & software extensively elsewhere. I didn’t elaborate in this article because I didn’t expect it to become popular outside my regular readership (who will already be familiar with those arguments).

                                                        In addition to the stuff covered above, there’s the obvious precedent of cybersyn. Of course, eliminating capitalism doesn’t require eliminating markets (as cybersyn does), & despite the various problems with markets, it’s unclear whether or not doing so would even be desirable in capitalism’s absence. After all, markets can be pretty good for solving certain kinds of information problems so long as the prerequisites for market efficiency are fulfilled. On the other hand, almost all economic activity on earth occurs within corporations or families (both of which are siloed planned economies) & attempts to bring markets into corporate silos have largely been disastrous, so it’s worth considering cybersyn’s progeny seriously.

                                                        1. 2

                                                          Next time just link the phrase to your previous article that explains it best, so that it doesn’t appear to be a random comment.

                                                          1. 4

                                                            I’ve got an awful lot of other writing related to every subject I cover here. You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t link every word to a different article when tossing off a low-effort rant I expected to get at most ten readers. Criticism of capitalism is among the least controversial subjects I cover in this.

                                                        2. 9

                                                          What is it about the author’s dislike of capitalism that invalidates their opinions about UX design?

                                                          1. 10

                                                            The casual injection into a post that I was reading to find out about his opinions on UX design.

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                                                              it’s their article, not yours. If they think it’s important, they can write whatever they want :)

                                                              1. 1

                                                                It may be their article but we are allowed to critique it. Nobody’s imprisoning the author for the way he writes, but by the same token, no one is obligated to read what he wrote if the style drives them away.

                                                                1. 3

                                                                  Then why not just hide and ignore? How do the OP reply’s not equate to tantamount compaining and not serious discussion? what do you intend to accomplish with this reply?

                                                                  EDIT: also, it’s funny I got downvoted as “incorrect” at the same time as your reply…

                                                                2. -6

                                                                  It might have made some sense with context. Now it did not.

                                                                  A big part of capitalism is providing the supply for a demand. If something won, there’s a market demand for it, right?

                                                                  It might be suboptimal, and change can be hard to enact, but would it be better if every computer was an autistic LISP machine, utterly unapproachable for a layman?

                                                                  1. 5

                                                                    Can you seriously not use “autistic” as an insult?

                                                                    1. 3

                                                                      ….what?

                                                                      1. 3

                                                                        This post includes, in five sentences, a severe misunderstanding of markets under conditions of near monopoly, some pretty extreme ableism, and the straw man fallacy.

                                                                        Please, reconsider.

                                                                    2. 3

                                                                      I’m with zdsmith and the others here. It’s OK to have this as a pet peeve, but really, just put that aside and evaluate the ideas being presented for what they are. That’s my suggestion.

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                                                                    It sounds to me like the OP is responding to an insufficiently-filled market need to shit on capitalism, and I commend them for responding so quickly to the invisible hand.

                                                                    1. 5

                                                                      Also, I don’t think you’re using the phrase “dog-whistling” correctly.

                                                                      1. 2

                                                                        No. Calls for the death of capitalism and the adoption of fully automated luxury space communism are all the rage these days.

                                                                        And while I started writing this as snark, the truth is it’s a reality, especially in certain quarters like Mastodon where thousands of kids who’ve likely not experienced actual hardship ever seem to predominate.

                                                                        1. 7

                                                                          And while I started writing this as snark, the truth is it’s a reality, especially in certain quarters like Mastodon where thousands of kids who’ve likely not experienced actual hardship ever seem to predominate.

                                                                          Except that the ‘kids’ you talk of have actually experienced far more hardship than any previous generation that still lives. Growing up in a massive recession, living in a world where they have no privacy and many have no expectation of privacy, where they’re allowed to own mobile phones as children despite it being objectively proven that this is incredibly harmful to their psychological development, living in a world where all collectivism in society has been snuffed out by the unstoppable march of neoliberalism.

                                                                          If you can, imagine having your once almost guaranteed job replaced by outsourcing to Asia so the very rich who were already far too rich can make even more money. Imagine having your previously completely free tertiary education replaced with unbelievably expensive tertiary education but of far worse quality with universities filled with foreign students that waste tutor and lecturer time by being virtually unable to communicate in English. Imagine having your Government’s public works department privatised and its job of building sufficient housing to keep house prices at a reasonable level completely abandoned, leading to some of the most expensive housing in the world in a low population density first world country with more than enough land.

                                                                          If you were in those shoes I imagine you’d consider yourself to be subject to some level of bloody hardship thank you very much.

                                                                          1. 3

                                                                            Except that the ‘kids’ you talk of have actually experienced far more hardship than any previous generation that still lives.

                                                                            Do you realise that there are still survivors of the Second World War alive? Survivors of the Holocaust? Survivors of the Cultural Revolution?

                                                                            No, millennials haven’t ‘experienced far more hardship than any previous generation that still lives,’ not even close. Not even a little bit.

                                                                            1. 6

                                                                              Um… Can we please not have sweeping generalizations about the life experiences of entire generations here? Or pissing contests about hardship? The hyperbole to which you are responding is severely oversaturated, but the basic point is sound. Genuine hardships exist at every level in the mythical Maslow hierarchy. Studies have shown that grad students suffer the same stress levels (measured by both Likert scale and cortisol levels) as combat soldiers. People who live through major natural disasters and other forms of severe crisis generally report feelings of peace and social communion. People adapt, it’s how our nervous systems work. Exercise some compassion!

                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                I guess you’ve never met any from other parts of the world who isn’t from the United States, or other other affluent and unravaged countries.

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  Did you mean to reply to milesrout? Every one of my examples of people who’ve experience far more hardship than millennials have was from outside of the United States.

                                                                                  Or do you mean that ‘millennials’ is a term usefully applied to non-Western cohorts? I think that would be a rare usage. Still, while there’s some pretty horrific stuff going on the world today, I don’t think it compares to the Cultural Revolution or the Holocaust.

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    I was replying to you; you brought up non-Western comparisons, and I’m pointing out that your attempt to minimize current ills is unsound.

                                                                                    It’s undeniable that Millennials, and all other post-Boomer cohorts in the United States, have had declining opportunities and quality of life, due to structural issues related to unregulated and sociopathic economic policy and behavior (see https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-american-economy-is-rigged/). So what’s your deal? Why are you trying to gaslight us?

                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                      It’s undeniable that Millennials, and all other post-Boomer cohorts in the United States, have had declining opportunities and quality of life

                                                                                      I’m not arguing against that statement: I’m arguing against the statement ‘the ‘kids’ you talk of have actually experienced far more hardship than any previous generation that still lives.’ That statement is false, because there are generations still living which have experienced far worse hardship than the Millennials. Whatever hardship they face pales in comparison to mass slaughter, mass murder, mass starvation, mass conscription &c. &c. &c.

                                                                                      That’s not gaslighting: it’s a simple fact.

                                                                                      1. 0

                                                                                        I believe it is incorrect to exclude the rest of the world in the Millennial cohort; the problems they face are global. Especially since you keep bringing up non-Western-world examples like the Cultural Revolution. And Millennials and younger are now facing down the barrels of a bunch of giant ecological cannons, and the world is turning into an authoritarian hellscape, so again, your insistence on minimizing how rightfully pissed they should be is literally incredible.

                                                                            2. 3

                                                                              And this is bad because?

                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                It’s absolutely not “bad” - did I say that?

                                                                                No, what I said is that I see a lot of people yearning for a particular bit of societal change, and sometimes I question whether or not they appreciate the fullness of what they’re asking for.

                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                  In particular, I am selfishly worried that given that kind of massive, wholesale seismic shift in the way we structure our lives that basic infrastructure would fall away for a time.

                                                                                  I’m dependent on a couple of key medications that aren’t all that common to continue existing on the prime material plane, so despite the fact that I LOVE the idea, I’m a bit cautious around what it would ACTUALLY mean to march into our glorious future with my comrades, possibly dying of dehydration along the way. (The drug I need is vasopressin replacement. Without it I dehydrate and die. Full stop.)

                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                    Countries with socialised medicine do far better at providing people with medicine than those without. I struggle to see why it’d be reasonable to expect socialism to do poorly at providing medicine.

                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                      Countries that have socialized medicine where a person with disorder like GP has survives are capitalist.

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        What does that have to do with what I said?

                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                          This whole branch discusses the “calls for death of capitalism”, and you mention socialized medicine as a counter argument. Now, why do you make me explain your post to yourself?

                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                          Countries that have socialized medicine where a person with disorder like GP has survives are capitalist.

                                                                                          I can’t even parse this. What are you saying? Socialized medicine is socialism. Western countries are a mix of socialized services (education, roads, trains, military) and private, market-based systems. The mix has historically shifted back and forth, and right now, we’re at an extremely capitalistic phase, and it’s too much.

                                                                                          Capital is useful, like fire. Demanding that we worship it and asserting that capitalism is the Only Way is like demanding that firefighting be outlawed, because fire is good.

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            Socialized medicine in socialist countries is atrociously bad. The GP would not have survived there with the kind of disorder they have. I am saying that because I lived in a poster boy socialist country with such healthcare system.

                                                                                            All Western countries are decidedly capitalist, their economies are based on proceeds from capitalist mode of production. Back in my history class in USSR we had that political map of the world, they were marked there as such.

                                                                                            I hope you aren’t suggesting that the USA is the only capitalist Western country, since all others have socialized healthcare of some sort.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              Really, you’re saying the medicine in the Netherlands, and Australia, and Canada, and Sweden, etc. is atrociously bad? Because I know for a fact that the systems there are better than in the United States.

                                                                                              Again, socialized medicine, like socialized military or education, is socialism. All the Western democracies are a mix of socialism and capitalism.

                                                                                              The United States is more capitalistic than the other ones; I am saying it needs to be less capitalistic than it currently is.

                                                                                              1. 0

                                                                                                Really, you’re saying the medicine in the Netherlands, and Australia, and Canada, and Sweden, etc. is atrociously bad?

                                                                                                I am saying that medicine in Marxist societies was (and is) bad. There is a world of difference between socialized aspects of Sweden and Soviet socialism. They have nothing in common, nada, nilch. If you think USSR was like Sweden but just poorer and with more socialized services, no, it was nothing like it at all. In fact from that perspective Sweden is undistinguishable from the USA. I know because I’m familiar with both, and a former Prime Minister of Sweden agrees.

                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                  No one was talking about Soviet-style Marxist Communism, which we all agree was a nightmare. The argument was, “Too much has been subject to capitalism,” (which originally sprang from the OP’s note that we still have capitalism, meaning, there is still scarcity and inequality), or, “There should be more socialism,” which has nothing to do with the dysfunction in the USSR.

                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                    Fair enough. I was going off “calls for the death of capitalism” upthread, have nothing against socialized healthcare per se.

                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                      But why does a call for moving beyond capitalism automatically invoke, “I guess you want to try something terrible, like a USSR or DPRK style nightmare?”

                                                                                                      Capitalism, like controlled fire, is a human tool meant to bring about humane ends. When fire rages out of control and people get hurt, we put it out. When capital rages out of control and people get hurt, for some reason a lot of people get mad when you say, “Maybe common and critical needs shouldn’t be subject to market dynamics,” and I just don’t understand that reaction.

                                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                                        Because you hardly hear that call from anyone else than communists, and USSR/DPRK was the outcome of people giving their best to build communism.

                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                          Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Anarcho-Communist Syndicalism does not suffer from the flaws of the attempts from 100 years ago; we will have automated labor this time ;)

                                                                                                          Also, if you have an ounce of awareness and you live in the San Francisco area, it’s impossible to not be confronted with catastrophic failure of capitalism as a total system (meaning, attempts to provide all needs via markets).

                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                            All kinds of societies can thrive once you remove human factor!

                                                                                        3. 1

                                                                                          Did you read what I read in full?

                                                                                          In particular, I am selfishly worried that given that kind of massive, wholesale seismic shift in the way we structure our lives that basic infrastructure would fall away for a time.

                                                                                          Of course once a fully marxist / communist society was attained medicine would be a non problem for most people, my issue is the transition. Do you actually think we could just pivot from full on rape and pillage capitalism to such a society without massive upheaval, bloodshed, and interruption of all but the simplest infrastructure services (like the manufacture and delivery of specialized medication for instance.)

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            Of course once a fully marxist / communist society was attained medicine would be a non problem for most people

                                                                                            Don’t count on it. We had root canals treated without anaesthetics in 1980s USSR.

                                                                                            1. 3

                                                                                              This is exactly the point I was trying to make. I’m seeing a LOT of people extolling the virtues of Marxist / communist societies without thinking through how hard they are to actually implement in ways that benefit the common citizen.

                                                                                              For a really great trove of data on how this can go totally awry, read the book Red Plenty.

                                                                                              Many then cite successful implementations of universal healthcare in socialist countries, failing to acknowledge the fact that many (all?) of these are fueled by thriving capitalist economies.

                                                                                              I acknowledge that I am a cis white male working in technology and currently enjoying a lifestyle practically dripping with privilege, but this has not always been so, and I also feel that just because I have never known hardship (especially not the kind of hardship experienced by millennials, apparently) but that doesn’t mean I can’t talk about the flaws in people’s thinking.

                                                                                    2. 3

                                                                                      If you’re going to go that far you should go all the way: fully automated luxury gay space communism.

                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                        Sure why not? With flying cars, even! :)

                                                                                        (In all seriousness, Ian Banks Culture novels represent pretty much the ONLY far future society I’d actually WANT to be a citizen of :)

                                                                                  1. 5

                                                                                    Betteridge’s law of headlines strikes again.

                                                                                    (you can’t steal intellectual property)

                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                      “trade-secret theft”

                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                        Clicked just to type this. Thanks for doing it for me. :-)

                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                          I think the article makes it clear that answer is more of a “maybe” than a “no”

                                                                                          1. 0

                                                                                            It is literally impossible to steal “intellectual property”, because stealing implies that you’ve depriving the original owner of possession.

                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                              Stealing is applied to anything where you deprive the original owner of enjoyment. In the case of intellectual property you are depriving the original owner of royalties or market advantage both of which can be estimated. Damages based on future potential is applied commonly in law, for example as when a person or their family is awarded damages for injury or death based on future earnings potential.

                                                                                        1. 14

                                                                                          One day in 2011, a Google executive named Isaac Taylor learned that, while he was on paternity leave, Levandowski had modified the cars’ software so that he could take them on otherwise forbidden routes. A Google executive recalls witnessing Taylor and Levandowski shouting at each other. Levandowski told Taylor that the only way to show him why his approach was necessary was to take a ride together. The men, both still furious, jumped into a self-driving Prius and headed off.

                                                                                          The car went onto a freeway, where it travelled past an on-ramp. According to people with knowledge of events that day, the Prius accidentally boxed in another vehicle, a Camry. A human driver could easily have handled the situation by slowing down and letting the Camry merge into traffic, but Google’s software wasn’t prepared for this scenario. The cars continued speeding down the freeway side by side. The Camry’s driver jerked his car onto the right shoulder. Then, apparently trying to avoid a guardrail, he veered to the left; the Camry pinwheeled across the freeway and into the median. Levandowski, who was acting as the safety driver, swerved hard to avoid colliding with the Camry, causing Taylor to injure his spine so severely that he eventually required multiple surgeries.

                                                                                          The Prius regained control and turned a corner on the freeway, leaving the Camry behind. Levandowski and Taylor didn’t know how badly damaged the Camry was. They didn’t go back to check on the other driver or to see if anyone else had been hurt. Neither they nor other Google executives made inquiries with the authorities. The police were not informed that a self-driving algorithm had contributed to the accident.

                                                                                          Levandowski, rather than being cowed by the incident, later defended it as an invaluable source of data, an opportunity to learn how to avoid similar mistakes. He sent colleagues an e-mail with video of the near-collision. Its subject line was “Prius vs. Camry.” (Google refused to show me a copy of the video or to divulge the exact date and location of the incident.) He remained in his leadership role and continued taking cars on non-official routes.

                                                                                          Wow.

                                                                                          1. 6

                                                                                            Wow is right. I always wondered how they managed to get to a sort-of practical self-driving car without any catastrophic accidents. Apparently that’s how - they have them, then cover-up and deny their way out of any blame or recognition.

                                                                                          1. 29

                                                                                            Replace JS for your favorite language:

                                                                                            https://0.30000000000000004.com/

                                                                                            JS just happens be everyone’s favorite punching bag nowadays ;)

                                                                                            1. 10

                                                                                              Most other languages I know of let you specify that a number is an integer ;)

                                                                                              EDIT: wow this was a very bad brain fart, and I’m leaving it here as a testament to how quickly people will pile on on Javascript without thinking. Sorry everyone.

                                                                                              1. 17

                                                                                                0.1 + 0.2 doesn’t work well for integer math either.

                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                  Multiple them by enough zeros to turn them into integers. Do the math in integer form for integer rules (1 + 2). Reverse the process to get float results.

                                                                                                  I’ve done that before a long time ago. I can’t remember why I did. Maybe just to dodge floats’ problems during number crunching. I know peoples’ reactions to it were funny.

                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                    I’m going to point out that COBOL handles this tricky calculation “unsurprisingly” by default. We should all switch from JavaScript to COBOL.

                                                                                                  2. 2

                                                                                                    Upvoting because the edit is a good example of self-awareness and humility.

                                                                                                  3. 5

                                                                                                    the author does state:

                                                                                                    This behaviour is not unique to JavaScript. It is seen in every programming language where doubles are available, including C, C++, C#, Erlang, Java, Python and Rust.

                                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                                    Vue probably needs class support for those that want it, but am I the only one who doesn’t want to use js classes or typescript? Haven’t found any problem I couldn’t solve with functions and objects and it feels so much more natural.

                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                      What is the story with using Typescript without classes? Is it not idiomatic? I’ve been programming in a functional JS style for years, and I don’t really want to use classes, either.

                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                        It’s perfectly idiomatic to write functional, classless TS. Classes are there if you want them, otherwise you can just type your functions and define types and interfaces for your non-class data structures.

                                                                                                        IIRC the TS compiler itself is written in this latter style.

                                                                                                      2. 1

                                                                                                        I feel the same way.

                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                          Same here, but have many coworkers that want better typescript integration, because static analysis, and can understand them actually.

                                                                                                          What I think is: Maybe it’s easier to make all the business logic in TS (even the store actions/commits, if you want. Have to admit that a typed state is useful) and just leave the components and visualization logic in plain JS.

                                                                                                          What I mostly cant get used to is TS decorators all over the place. Always end up mapping the entire state and just accessing from there, instead of multiple mount points.

                                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                                          it’s not like minesweeper, you have to click on ‘show results’ to see the score

                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                            Thanks, I was trying to figure that out for the longest time lol.

                                                                                                          1. 4

                                                                                                            I write blog posts when I have the impulse or time. Usually technical stuff but sometimes other things as well.

                                                                                                            http://markfischerjr.com/

                                                                                                            1. 28

                                                                                                              That is a very reductionist view of what people use the web for. And I am saying this as someone who’s personal site pretty much matches everything prescribed except comments (which I still have).

                                                                                                              Btw, Medium, given as a positive example, is not in any way minimal and certainly not by metrics given in this article.

                                                                                                              1. 19

                                                                                                                Btw, Medium, given as a positive example, is not in any way minimal and certainly not by metrics given in this article.

                                                                                                                Chickenshit minimalism: https://medium.com/@mceglowski/chickenshit-minimalism-846fc1412524

                                                                                                                1. 13

                                                                                                                  I wouldn’t say medium even gives the illusion of simplicity (For example, on the page you linked, try counting the visual elements that aren’t blog post). Medium seems to take a rather contrary approach to blogs, including all the random cruft you never even imagined existed, while leaving out the simple essentials like RSS feeds. I honestly have no idea how the author of the article came to suggest medium as an example of minimalism.

                                                                                                                  1. 8

                                                                                                                    Medium started with an illusion of simplicity and gradually got more and more complex.

                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                      I agree with your overall point, but Medium does provide RSS feeds. They are linked in the <head> and always have the same URL structure. Any medium.com/@user has an RSS feed at medium.com/feed/@user. For Medium blogs hosted at custom URLs, the feed is available at /feed.

                                                                                                                      I’m not affiliated with Medium. I have a lot of experience bugging webmasters of minimal websites to add feeds: https://github.com/issues?q=is:issue+author:tfausak+feed.

                                                                                                                  2. 3

                                                                                                                    That is a very reductionist view of what people use the web for.

                                                                                                                    I wonder what Youtube, Google docs, Slack, and stuff would be in a minimal web.

                                                                                                                    1. 19

                                                                                                                      Useful.

                                                                                                                      algernon hides

                                                                                                                      1. 5

                                                                                                                        YouTube, while not as good as it could be, is pretty minimalist if you disable all the advertising.

                                                                                                                        I find google apps to be amazingly minimal, especially compared to Microsoft Office and LibreOffice.

                                                                                                                        Minimalist Slack has been around for decades, it’s called IRC.

                                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                                          It is still super slow then! At some point I was able to disable JS, install the Firefox “html5-video-everywhere” extension and watch videos that way. That was awesome fast and minimal. Tried it again a few days ago, but didn’t seem to work anymore.

                                                                                                                          Edit: now I just “youtube-dl -f43 ” directly without going to YouTube and start watching immediately with VLC.

                                                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                                                            The youtube interface might look minimalist, but under the hood, it is everything but. Besides, I shouldn’t have to go to great lengths to disable all the useless stuff on it. It shouldn’t be the consumer’s job to strip away all the crap.

                                                                                                                          2. 2

                                                                                                                            That seems to be of extreme bad faith though.

                                                                                                                            1. 11

                                                                                                                              In a minimal web, locally-running applications in browser sandboxes would be locally-running applications in non-browser sandboxes. There’s no particular reason any of these applications is in a browser at all, other than myopia.

                                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                                Distribution is dead-easy for websites. In theory, you have have non-browser-sandboxed apps with such easy distribution, but then what’s the point.

                                                                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                                                                  Non-web-based locally-running client applications are also usually made downloadable via HTTP these days.

                                                                                                                                  The point is that when an application is made with the appropriate tools for the job it’s doing, there’s less of a cognitive load on developers and less of a resource load on users. When you use a UI toolkit instead of creating a self-modifying rich text document, you have a lighter-weight, more reliable, more maintainable application.

                                                                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                                                                    The power of “here’s a URL, you now have an app running without going through installation or whatnot” cannot be understated. I can give someone a copy of pseudo-Excel to edit a document we’re working together on, all through the magic of Google Sheet’s share links. Instantly

                                                                                                                                    Granted, this is less of an advantage if you’re using something all the time, but without the web it would be harder to allow for multiple tools to co-exist in the same space. And am I supposed to have people download the Doodle application just to figure out when our group of 15 can go bowling?

                                                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                                                      They are, in fact, downloading an application and running it locally.

                                                                                                                                      That application can still be javascript; I just don’t see the point in making it perform DOM manipulation.

                                                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                                                        As one who knows JavaScript pretty well, I don’t see the point of writing it in JavaScript, however.

                                                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                                                          A lot of newer devs have a (probably unfounded) fear of picking up a new language, and a lot of those devs have only been trained in a handful (including JS). Even if moving away from JS isn’t actually a big deal, JS (as distinct from the browser ecosystem, to which it isn’t really totally tied) is not fundamentally that much worse than any other scripting language – you can do whatever you do in JS in python or lua or perl or ruby and it’ll come out looking almost the same unless you go out of your way to use particular facilities.

                                                                                                                                          The thing that makes JS code look weird is all the markup manipulation, which looks strange in any language.

                                                                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                                                                            JS (as distinct from the browser ecosystem, to which it isn’t really totally tied) is not fundamentally that much worse than any other scripting language

                                                                                                                                            (a == b) !== (a === b)

                                                                                                                                            but only some times…

                                                                                                                                            1. 3

                                                                                                                                              Javascript has gotchas, just like any other organic scripting languages. It’s less consistent than python and lua but probably has fewer of these than perl or php.

                                                                                                                                              (And, just take a look at c++ if you want a faceful of gotchas & inconsistencies!)

                                                                                                                                              Not to say that, from a language design perspective, we shouldn’t prize consistency. Just to say that javascript is well within the normal range of goofiness for popular languages, and probably above average if you weigh by popularity and include C, C++, FORTRAN, and COBOL (all of which see a lot of underreported development).

                                                                                                                                      2. 1

                                                                                                                                        Web applications are expected to load progressively. And that because they are sandboxed, they are allowed to start instantly without asking you for permissions.

                                                                                                                                        The same could be true of sandboxed desktop applications that you could stream from a website straight into some sort of sandboxed local VM that isn’t the web. Click a link, and the application immediately starts running on your desktop.

                                                                                                                                      3. 1

                                                                                                                                        I can’t argue with using the right tool for the job. People use Electron because there isn’t a flexible, good-looking, easy-to-use cross-platform UI kit. Damn the 500 mb of RAM usage for a chat app.

                                                                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                                                                          There are several good-looking flexible easy to use cross-platform UI kits. GTK, WX, and QT come to mind.

                                                                                                                                          If you remove the ‘good-looking’ constraint, then you also get TK, which is substantially easier to use for certain problem sets, substantially smaller, and substantially more cross-platform (in that it will run on fringe or legacy platforms that are no longer or were never supported by GTK or QT).

                                                                                                                                          All of these have well-maintained bindings to all popular scripting languages.

                                                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                                                            QT apps can look reasonably good. I think webapps can look better, but I haven’t done extensive QT customization.

                                                                                                                                            The bigger issue is 1) hiring - easier to get JS devs than QT devs 2) there’s little financial incentive to reduce memory usage. Using other people’s RAM is “free” for a company, so they do it. If their customers are in US/EU/Japan, they can expect reasonably new machines so they don’t see it as an issue. They aren’t chasing the market in Nigeria, however large in population.

                                                                                                                                            1. 5

                                                                                                                                              Webapps are sort of the equivalent of doing something in QT but using nothing but the canvas widget (except a little more awkward because you also don’t have pixel positioning). Whatever can be done in a webapp can be done in a UI toolkit, but the most extreme experimental stuff involves not using actual widgets (just like doing it as a webapp would).

                                                                                                                                              Using QT doesn’t prevent you from writing in javascript. Just use NPM QT bindings. It means not using the DOM, but that’s a net win: it is faster to learn how to do something with a UI toolkit than to figure out how to do it through DOM manipulation, unless the thing that you’re doing is (at a fundamental level) literally displaying HTML.

                                                                                                                                              I don’t think memory use is really going to be the main factor in convincing corporations to leave Electron. It’s not something that’s limited to the third world: most people in the first world (even folks who are in the top half of income) don’t have computers that can run Electron apps very well – but for a lot of folks, there’s the sense that computers just run slow & there’s nothing that can be done about it.

                                                                                                                                              Instead, I think the main thing that’ll drive corporations toward more sustainable solutions is maintenance costs. It’s one thing to hire cheap web developers & have them build something, but over time keeping a hairball running is simply more difficult than keeping something that’s more modular running – particularly as the behavior of browsers with respect to the corner cases that web apps depend upon to continue acting like apps is prone to sudden (and difficult to model) change. Building on the back of HTML rendering means a red queen’s race against 3 major browsers, all of whom are changing their behaviors ahead of standards bodies; on the other hand, building on a UI library means you can specify a particular version as a dependency & also expect reasonable backwards-compatibility and gradual deprecation.

                                                                                                                                              (But, I don’t actually have a lot of confidence that corporations will be convinced to do the thing that, in the long run, will save them money. They need to be seen to have saved money in the much shorter term, & saying that you need to rearchitect something so that it costs less in maintenance over the course of the next six years isn’t very convincing to non-technical folks – or to technical folks who haven’t had the experience of trying to change the behavior of a hairball written and designed by somebody who left the company years ago.)

                                                                                                                                            2. 1

                                                                                                                                              I understand that these tools are maintained in a certain sense. But from an outsider’s perspective, they are absolutely not appealing compared to what you see in their competitors.

                                                                                                                                              I want to be extremely nice, because I think that the work done on these teams and projects is very laudable. But compare the wxPython docs with the Bootstrap documentation. I also spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to use Tk, and almost all resources …. felt outdated and incompatible with whatever toolset I had available.

                                                                                                                                              I think Qt is really good at this stuff, though you do have to marry its toolset for a lot of it (perhaps this has gotten better).

                                                                                                                                              The elephant in the room is that no native UI toolset (save maybe Apple’s stack?) is nowhere near as good as the diversity of options and breadth of tooling available in DOM-based solutions. Chrome dev tools is amazing, and even simple stuff like CSS animations gives a lot of options that would be a pain in most UI toolkits. Out of the box it has so much functionality, even if you’re working purely vanilla/“no library”. Though on this points things might have changed, jQuery basically is the optimal low-level UI library and I haven’t encountered native stuff that gives me the same sort of productivity.

                                                                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                                                                I dunno. How much of that is just familiarity? I find the bootstrap documentation so incomprehensible that I roll my own DOM manipulations rather than using it.

                                                                                                                                                TK is easy to use, but the documentation is tcl-centric and pretty unclear. QT is a bad example because it’s quite heavy-weight and slow (and you generally have to use QT’s versions of built-in types and do all sorts of similar stuff). I’m not trying to claim that existing cross-platform UI toolkits are great: I actually have a lot of complaints with all of them; it’s just that, in terms of ease of use, peformance, and consistency of behavior, they’re all far ahead of web tech.

                                                                                                                                                When it comes down to it, web tech means simulating a UI toolkit inside a complicated document rendering system inside a UI toolkit, with no pass-throughs, and even web tech toolkits intended for making UIs are really about manipulating markup and not actually oriented around placing widgets or orienting shapes in 2d space. Because determining how a piece of markup will look when rendered is complex and subject to a lot of variables not under the programmer’s control, any markup-manipulation-oriented system will make creating UIs intractably awkward and fragile – and while Google & others have thrown a great deal of code and effort at this problem (by exhaustively checking for corner cases, performing polyfills, and so on) and hidden most of that code from developers (who would have had to do all of that themselves ten years ago), it’s a battle that can’t be won.

                                                                                                                                                1. 5

                                                                                                                                                  It annoys me greatly because it feels like nobody really cares about the conceptual damage incurred by simulating a UI toolkit inside a doument renderer inside a UI toolkit, instead preferring to chant “open web!” And then this broken conceptual basis propagates to other mediums (VR) simply because it’s familiar. I’d also argue the web as a medium is primarily intended for commerce and consumption, rather than creation.

                                                                                                                                                  It feels like people care less about the intrinsic quality of what they’re doing and more about following whatever fad is around, especially if it involves tools pushed by megacorporations.

                                                                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                                                                    Everything (down to the transistor level) is layers of crap hiding other layers of different crap, but web tech is up there with autotools in terms of having abstraction layers that are full of important holes that developers must be mindful of – to the point that, in my mind, rolling your own thing is almost always less work than learning and using the ‘correct’ tool.

                                                                                                                                                    If consumer-grade CPUs were still doubling their clock speeds and cache sizes every 18 months at a stable price point and these toolkits properly hid the markup then it’d be a matter of whether or not you consider waste to be wrong on principle or if you’re balancing it with other domains, but neither of those things are true & so choosing web tech means you lose across the board in the short term and lose big across the board in the long term.

                                                                                                                                2. 1

                                                                                                                                  Youtube would be a website where you click on a video and it plays. But it wouldn’t have ads and comments and thumbs up and share buttons and view counts and subscription buttons and notification buttons and autoplay and add-to-playlist.

                                                                                                                                  Google docs would be a desktop program.

                                                                                                                                  Slack would be IRC.

                                                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                                                    What you’re describing is the video HTML5 tag, not a video sharing platform. Minimalism is good, I do agree, but don’t mix it with no features at all.

                                                                                                                                    Google docs would be a desktop program.

                                                                                                                                    This is another debate around why using the web for these kind of tasks, not the fact that it’s minimalist or not.

                                                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                                                It’s not from a UNIX hacking perspective, and also the author is a front end web developer, so take it or leave it. It’s a blog post series documenting switching from mac to windows as a full time development machine.

                                                                                                                                https://daverupert.com/tag/davegoeswindows/

                                                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                                                  Dropbox is blocked where I work (don’t ask me why), is there a mirror somewhere?

                                                                                                                                  EDIT: never mind I’ll get it from vuehandbook.com :)

                                                                                                                                  1. 15

                                                                                                                                    I’m under the impression that opt-out is not allowed under GDPR, only opt-in. The question is, then, which this UI is. I’d argue it’s opt-out.

                                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                                      The trick is that, had I clicked the button “Sounds Good, Thanks!”, I would have opt-in.

                                                                                                                                      1. 17

                                                                                                                                        IANAL, but I think this pretty clearly violates the GDPR. From the GDPR’s preamble:

                                                                                                                                        If the data subject’s consent is to be given following a request by electronic means, the request must be clear, concise and not unnecessarily disruptive to the use of the service for which it is provided.

                                                                                                                                        It is not clear, because it uses a dark pattern (using color choices) for the user to read: “We care about privacy -> Sounds Good, Thanks”. Also, I would call unticking 338 companies unnecessarily disruptive. Moreover:

                                                                                                                                        Consent should not be regarded as freely given if the data subject has no genuine or free choice or is unable to refuse or withdraw consent without detriment.

                                                                                                                                        Again, I would call manually unticking 338 pretty detrimental.

                                                                                                                                        1. 5

                                                                                                                                          GDPR Recital 32 is particularly informative. I’ll reproduce paragraphs 1-3 here (reformatted for clarity):

                                                                                                                                          (1) Consent should be given by a clear affirmative act establishing a freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the data subject’s agreement to the processing of personal data relating to him or her, such as by a written statement, including by electronic means, or an oral statement.

                                                                                                                                          (2) This could include ticking a box when visiting an internet website, choosing technical settings for information society services or another statement or conduct which clearly indicates in this context the data subject’s acceptance of the proposed processing of his or her personal data.

                                                                                                                                          (3) Silence, pre-ticked boxes or inactivity should not therefore constitute consent.

                                                                                                                                          While reading (3) alone you might think that this system would be contrary to law, I think in the broader context it’s probably okay? Your attention is being drawn to the fact that you have to give consent to use of your personal data (the modal). You can either look for more information, or say okay. So I don’t see this as a pre-ticked box within the meaning of paragraph 3.

                                                                                                                                          However, it’s definitely shady (and common) practice. I think it’s borderline, and it would be fair for the regulator to raise concerns. I suspect that the “not unnecessarily disruptive to the use of the service” will actually count in InfoWorld’s favor here. The Correct Solution would be to offer a deselect all.

                                                                                                                                          1. -1

                                                                                                                                            Playing devil’s advocate here, but they don’t actually need to untick 338 checkboxes, they only need to click “deselect all” as the author did.

                                                                                                                                            1. 9

                                                                                                                                              Ehm… the author had to untick 338 checkboxes because there is no “deselect all”.

                                                                                                                                              It took a while, actually, but I hate to be manipulated.

                                                                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                                                                Sorry, somehow I misread that. I stand corrected.

                                                                                                                                          2. 4

                                                                                                                                            Yeah. I feel like that’s against the spirit of GDPR, if not the text. I guess the courts will decide. 🙂

                                                                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                                                                              And if not GDPR violation, Shamar and others can sue them in class action for the damage to their hands from 338 checkboxes. Each violation will pay a fine equal to the sum of their users at risk of arthritis or carpal tunnel. That’s on top of any GDPR fines.

                                                                                                                                        1. 7

                                                                                                                                          > discord

                                                                                                                                          God please, no!

                                                                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                                                                            Better than slack.

                                                                                                                                            1. 7

                                                                                                                                              Of course!

                                                                                                                                              But why you need to stick to proprietary solutions and make them unreachable on platforms you’re caring about on this community? Wouldn’t be better to just use IRC like civilized people do?

                                                                                                                                              1. 7

                                                                                                                                                Trying to convince people who want Slack or Discord to use IRC will get you nowhere.

                                                                                                                                                IRC is awesome and some of us have been using it since dirt but it ITSELF lacks features some modern users really want - built in search / logging / voice chat / built in image / sound rendering, etc etc etc.

                                                                                                                                                You can say “Bah that’s all crap” - and I’ll agree with you, but that doesn’t stop people from wanting.

                                                                                                                                                Personally, I wish more open source folk would explore sollutions like https://zulipchat.com/

                                                                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                                                                  Direct link to the code for everybody’s convenience: https://github.com/zulip/zulip

                                                                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                                                                    I know Zulip but haven’t tried it personally yet…

                                                                                                                                                    And, more importantly - does it have an IRC gateway? :)

                                                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                                                      Sort of: https://github.com/zulip/python-zulip-api/issues/106

                                                                                                                                                      I still like zulip quite a lot, i think its concept of topics does really improve discussions.

                                                                                                                                                2. 1

                                                                                                                                                  They have an IRC channel too, and a bot that communicates between IRC & Discord

                                                                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                                                                    These bridging bots (between Slack/Discord/Matrix/Telegram/Hipchat and IRC) are quite incomplete solutions, as they can’t do “puppeting” so the bot impersonates all IM users as single IRC user and it’s bad to interact with them in that way.

                                                                                                                                                    I hope Matrix could solve this in the future.

                                                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                                                      I’ve been using Matrix for about 18 months, and it does puppeting perfectly when bridging to IRC, from either side.

                                                                                                                                                      The Slack bridging with Matrix looks to behave in a similar way; you’re almost unable to distinguish native users and bridged users.

                                                                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                                                                              Why we even tolerate a closed-source, proprietary text editor in XXI century?

                                                                                                                                              1. 10

                                                                                                                                                Nobody’s holding a sword to your throat and forcing you to use it.

                                                                                                                                                1. 7

                                                                                                                                                  You might want that intolerance looked at, it sounds like it’s reducing your quality of life.

                                                                                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                                                                                    Could you elaborate? I wouldn’t say most ST users are tolerating anything. They are in fact enjoying the experience with the editor, perhaps more than an open source editor. Unless you are one of the small minority who are forced to use an extremely esoteric development setup you have some degree of choice in how you work, which might even include using a proprietary editor if that’s what you prefer. FWIW I think ST has actually jump-started some of the wider interest and innovation in text editors in recent years.

                                                                                                                                                    My personal favourite closed-source editor is EmEditor (https://www.emeditor.com/). If I need to work in a Windows environment, it’s the first software I install, but it’s not the editor that I spend most of my time coding in. I often have to deal with huge CSV and other text files which the developer specializes in handling. They added features for opening CSV files in an Excel-like way which is a huge boon if you need that. It can open Visual Studio solutions and is extremely fast. It lacks all of the useful plug-ins that editors I prefer to code with have, but it really knows it’s niche. Perhaps there are equivalent capabilities with other open source products, but it doesn’t seem a problem that these proprietary products exist and innovate.

                                                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                                                      The dude might need money.

                                                                                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                                                                                        Being paid to program? gasps Only I’m allowed to do that.

                                                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                                                      I know this post is *nix-centric, but FWIW, WPF and XAML are not horrible tools for building UIs.

                                                                                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                                                                                        … I just spent a minute searching the web for a GUI toolkit named “FWIW”… For what it is worth, I now presume that there is not one.

                                                                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                                                                          Haha, sorry for inadvertently sending you on that wild goose chase :|