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    I also recently purchased and received a Pinebook Pro, and I love it!

    I cannot recommend the Pinebook Pro for a newbie (at least, not without local tech support). You need to have some experience with Linux and the command line to make it work. When I updated the keyboard + trackpad firmware as directed, I didn’t read the directions carefully enough, it turns out the keyboard stops working halfway through the update process! An external keyboard is required to finish the update, and I didn’t have one lying around at home, I had to go into the office to borrow one. That said, the Pinebook Pro isn’t advertised as newbie-friendly, so I don’t currently consider this a problem.

    My one reservation about this computer as a tool (rather than a toy) is that I worry about keeping the software up-to-date and secure. I’m concerned that if e.g. Firefox isn’t updated immediately, it is a security risk, and I worry about logging into anything that matters. For example, Pinebook Pro’s default Debian build https://github.com/mrfixit2001/debian_desktop (which is a volunteer project) just updated to Firefox 71. What’s the difference between that and the latest Firefox 72? Looks like a bunch of security fixes: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/security/advisories/mfsa2020-01/

    I don’t need that much in the way of specs to have a functional computer. I need a web browser, and a terminal with SSH. There are a number of optional applications I’d like to have, like my preferred editor Atom, Signal Desktop and Slack for messaging, but I can survive without them. But if I’m afraid to use the browser because it might not be entirely secure…

    I don’t expect browser updates to be a long-term problem, I’m sure I’m not the only person who wants an up-to-date browser, and they seem to be working on it. That said, it is a problem I currently have.

    I’d also feel a little better if the default OS was a commercial build rather than a volunteer project, but I suppose I should have shelled out the cash for System76 or something if I really cared about that.

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      Fedora is getting better at supporting ARM64 (aarch64). It supports the Pi 3B+ now since a few releases, which gives you all the same software releases (including kernel!) as on x86_64. Pinebook Pro support is planned.

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        For example, Pinebook Pro’s default Debian build https://github.com/mrfixit2001/debian_desktop (which is a volunteer project) just updated to Firefox 71.

        Do you mean that it doesn’t use the official Debian package repositories? Or just that it’s an unofficial installer? Because if it’s the former, that’s a really strange claim I would want to look into more, and if it’s the latter, then it’s completely unsurprising.

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          When I look in sources.list, the apt sources are the standard debian stretch repositories.

          However, it appears to be using a custom kernel, custom builds for Chrome + Firefox etc., and a bunch of other tweaks. This non-standard software is updated via a “custom updater capable of updating uboot, the Linux kernel and numerous packages” in the form of a shell script with a handy icon in the toolbar.

          So you can install normal software via apt, but the tweaked software optimized to work on this hardware is installed/updated through the custom updater.

          Some details here: https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=7830

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          I put Manjaro/XFCE on mine and it runs better than the default Debian build.The pinebook pro is also officially supported by Manjaro, so that feels good.

          Highly recommend it if you are a fan of Manjaro or Arch.

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            To be clear, when I said “I’d also feel a little better if the default OS was a commercial build rather than a volunteer project”, I don’t mean that I think the volunteers are doing bad work. I just mean that I worry about them being fairly compensated for their work, and I worry that without financial support they may not be able to maintain the software in the long run.

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            I have my personal website, a couple business-related websites, a murmur server, about 5 or 6 slack commands (that run as separate web services, basically, though you could do this as one if you wanted. I did it for experimenting with different languages), and my crown jewel, nhl94hockey.com .. so you’re looking at php, ruby, python3, node, rust, mysql, postgresql, sqlite3 .. there are probably other things I’m forgetting.

            All of that on a $2.50 vultr vps.

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              It seems to me like people want a bulleted list of things they need to do to become something. Whether it’s getting a promotion, learning a new thing, being better at work, or even other things like how to arrange their living room. So we get really highly opinionated blog entries about what you MUST do. Then people try to follow it and realize there isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution for .. really anything.

              Maybe I’m jaded after doing this professionally for nearly 20 years, but when I hack around outside of work, it’s purely for my own entertainment. I don’t think it is doing a ton to help me learn new skills. Most of that comes on the clock, and I challenge myself to keep learning things while at work rather than spending my own “free time” on work-related stuff. I don’t think it makes me better or worse than people who do it other ways.

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                Note that let won’t work in about 95% of browsers, never mind that the IE11 behaviour is broken enough that it most likely will cause bugs.

                A lot of devs consider these kind of numbers insignificant, and sneer at users for not using a “modern” browser. I don’t necessarily disagree that it’s annoying that people keep using really old browsers, but at the end of the day it’s a reality we’ll have to deal with. To me it seems somewhat akin to rejecting 5% of your customer base because you don’t like their backwards wearing baseball caps.

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                  Based on what I’m seeing on that site, (using the Usage Relative graphs), it does work in 95% of browsers. Granted, I suspect that most people using “let” are using it along with Babel, or they are explicitly targeting webapps that require a “modern” browser. Anymore, modern Line of Business webapps should have a pretty good feel for what their users are using.

                  Personally, though, I try to write code that is at least compatible with Edge/IE11. That makes it eaiser to do things like host a website in a C# WebBrowser control.

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                    It all depends on what you’re making, of course, and “never use let” is clearly simplistic and wrong advice. But I almost never see this listed as a consideration at all, including on this otherwise resonable article.

                    I always feel that “it does work for 95% of users” is the wrong way to look at it, and “it doesn’t work for 5%” is much more useful. I’ve been intending to make a version of caniuse.com which lists the browsers in which a feature won’t work, instead of the browsers in which it does work (edit: I actually went ahead and created this: https://github.com/arp242/cantuse)

                    There are a number of other features which won’t work for (IMHO often significant) number of people, like arrow functions (~7%).

                    Babel is nice, but also a complex build step, which has quite a few downsides. Especially for sites/apps with a limited amount of JS (which are most sites/apps), I don’t find the minor convenience that some of these newer JS features offer to be worth adding complex build steps.

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                      Well, realize that there are other developers that do check caniuse and co, and definitely try to consider less than mainstream browsers.

                      I’ve definitely asked for consideration of less-than-mainstream browser in the past. It’s not something that I do all the time, however.

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                    The obvious solution (which you’ve already stated you don’t like) is to use Babel to transform to whatever browsers you want to support. Many people already do this.

                    But quite frankly, the last 5% isn’t important unless it’s a business-critical segment, which seems increasingly unlikely. Edge was introduced nearly 5 years ago now. With its upcoming switch to blink, there’s even less incentive to cater to these old browsers.

                    I think many of us operate on the 80/20 rule, and I’m extremely confident in saying the last 5% of users are an edge case that would only hurt productivity, developer happiness, and feature progress.

                    If you want to cater to 100%, you probably shouldn’t use any JavaScript.

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                      I find those some bold statements: who says those users aren’t important for your business? Businesses reguarly make some fairly significant investments in e.g. advertising, rebrands, etc. to get 5% increase in their user base.

                      I don’t think that there would be a massive loss in “productivity, developer happiness, and feature progress” by simply using var. Is let a bit better? Sure. Does it make a large difference? Not really.

                      If you want to cater to 100%, you probably shouldn’t use any JavaScript.

                      Surely 99.5% is better than 90% or 95%.

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                        who says those users aren’t important for your business?

                        […] the last 5% isn’t important unless it’s a business-critical segment

                        I think the person you’re replying to covered that concern? 🙂

                        I have that 5%-but-critical-users case at my job: one customer, with only a handful of users, but they pay us a lot, so our app still works with IE11. I suspect, with knowing the details, that one of the reasons they pay us well is that we do continue to support them.

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                          About 10% of the users at $work are using IE11, representing over half our paying users.

                          Medical sector :/

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                          I’ve spent a number of years working in the health-care space, and that’s a world that’s notorious for horrid outdated tech – think ancient versions of Windows, IE6, the whole nine yards. Which means it’s not even a question of modern JavaScript being available, it’s a question of basic modern HTML/CSS.

                          And as strange as it may sound, I’ve seen multiple companies in that space adopt a strategy of “tell us your mailing address, we’ll send you a Chromebook”. Often that works out to be cheaper than figuring out some doctor’s office’s ancient operating system + browser and trying to cater to it.

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                            The difference between getting from 50% to 55% is vastly different than going from 90% to 95%, or even worse (in this case) 95%-100%.

                            It’s not a matter of “simply using var.” There is a lot of stuff in modern javascript that makes life miles better than it used to be.

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                              Yeah, but you can use all that stuff and still compile to es3 quite easily.

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                                They were talking about NOT wanting to compile things. If you’re adding a compile step, it really doesn’t matter at all obviously. You can target whatever you want.

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                          That link says the exact opposite of what you just said.

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                            You can use a transpiler to sort that out. No need to manually use var.

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                            I think this will not succeed for the same reason that RSS feeds has not (or REST). The problem with “just providing the data” is that businesses don’t want to just be data services.

                            They want to advertise to you, watch what you’re doing, funnel you through their sales paths, etc. This is why banks have never ever (until recently, UK is slowly developing this) provided open APIs for viewing your bank statement.

                            This is why businesses LOVE apps and hate web sites, always bothering you to install their app. It’s like being in their office. When I click a link from the reddit app, it opens a temporary view of the link. When I’m done reading, it takes me back to the app. I remain engaged in their experience. On the web your business page is one click away from being forgotten. The desire to couple display mechanism with model is strong.

                            The UK government is an exception, they don’t gain monetary value from your visits. As a UK citizen and resident, I can say that their web site is a fantastically lucid and refreshing experience. That’s because their goal is, above all, to inform you. They don’t need to “funnel” me to pay my taxes, because I have to do that by law anyway. It’s like reading Wikipedia.

                            I would love web services to all provide a semantic interface with automatically understandable schemas. (And also terminal applications, for that matter). But I can’t see it happening until a radical new business model is developed.

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                              This is why banks have never ever (until recently, UK is slowly developing this) provided open APIs for viewing your bank statement.

                              This has happened in all EU/EEA countries after the Payment Services Directive was updated in 2016 (PSD2). It went into effect in September 2019, as far as I remember. It’s been great to see how this open banking has made it possible for new companies to create apps that can e.g. gather your account details across different banks instead of having to rely on the banks’ own (often terrible) apps.

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                                The problem with PSD2 to my knowledge is that it forces banks to create an API an open access for Account Information Service Providers and Payment Initiation Services Providers, but not an API to you, the customer. So this seems to be a regulation that opens up your bank account to other companies (if you want), but not to the one person who should get API access. Registration as such a provider costs quite some money (I think 5 digits of Euros), so it’s not really an option to register yourself as a provider.

                                In Germany, we already seem to have lots of Apps for management of multiple bank accounts, because a protocol called HBCI seems to be common for access to your own account. But now people who use this are afraid that banks could stop this service when they implement PSD2 APIs. And then multi-account banking would only become possible through third-party services - who probably live from collecting and selling your data.

                                Sorry if something is wrong. I do not use HBCI, but that’s what I heard from other people.

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                                  I work on Open Banking APIs for a UK credit card provider.

                                  A large reason I see that the data isn’t made directly available to the customer is because if the customer were to accidentally leak / lose their own data, the provider (HSBC, Barclays etc) would be liable, not you. That means lots of hefty fines.

                                  You’d also likely be touching some PCI data, so you’d need to be cleared / set up to handle that safely (or having some way to filter it before you received it).

                                  Also, it requires a fair bit of extra setup and the use of certificate-based authentication (MTLS + signing request objects) means that as it currently sits you’d be need one of those, which aren’t cheap as they’re all EV certs.

                                  Its a shame, because the customer should get their data. But you may be able to work with intermediaries that may provide an interface for that data, who can do the hard work for you, ie https://www.openwrks.com/

                                  (originally posted at https://www.jvt.me/mf2/2019/12/7o91a/)

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                                Yes, this does seem like a naive view of why the web is what it is. It’s not always about content and data. For a government, this makes sense. They don’t need to track you or view your other browsing habits in order to offer you something else they’re selling. Other entities do not have the incentive to make their data easier to access or more widely available.

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                                  That’s very business centric view of the web, there’s a lot more to the internet than businesses peddling things to you. As an example, take a look at the ecosystem around ActivityPub. There are millions of users using services lile Mastodon, Pleroma, Pixelfed, PeetTube, and so on. All of them rely on being able to share data with one another to create a federation. All these projects directly benefit from exposing the data because the overall community grows, and it’s a cooperative effort as opposed to a competitive one.

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                                    It’s a realistic view of the web. Sure, people who are generating things like blogs or tweets may want to share their content without monetizing you, but it’s not going to fundamentally change a business like a bank. What incentive is there for a bank to make their APIs open to you? Or an advertiser? Or a magazine? Or literally any business?

                                    There’s nothing stopping these other avenues (like the peer-based services you are referring to) from trying to be as open as possible, but it doesn’t mean the mainstream businesses are ever going to follow suit.

                                    I think it’s also noteworthy that there is very little interesting content on any of those distributed systems, which is why so many people end up going back to Twitter, Instagram, etc.

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                                      My point is that I don’t see business as the primary value of the internet. I think there’s far more value in the internet providing a communication platform for regular people to connect, and that doesn’t need to be commercialized in any way. Businesses are just one niche, and it gets disproportionate focus in my opinion.

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                                  Aye, currently there is little motivation for companies to share data outside silos

                                  That mind-set isn’t really sustainable in the long term though as it limits opportunity. Data likes to date and there are huge opportunities once that becomes possible.

                                  The business models to make that worth pursuing are being worked on at high levels.

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                                    Ruben Verborgh, one of the folks behind the Solid initiative 1, has a pretty good essay 2 that details a world in which storage providers compete to provide storage, and application providers compete on offering different views to data that you already own.

                                    Without getting into Solid any more in this post, I will say that there are a ton of websites run by governments, non-profits, personal blogs, or other situations where semantically available data would be a huge boon. I was looking through a page of NSA funded research groups the other day for McMurdo station 3, and finding what each professor researched on took several mouse clicks per professor. If this data was available semantically, a simple query would be enough to list the areas of research of every group and every professor.

                                    One can think of a world where brick-and-mortar businesses serve their data semantically on their website, and aggregators (such as Google Maps, Yelp, and TripAdvisor) can aggregate them, and enable others to use the data for these businesses without creating their own scrapers or asking a business to create their own API. Think about a world where government agencies and bureaucracies publish data and documents in an easy to query manner. Yes, the world of web applications is hard to bring the semantic web to due to existing incentives for keeping data siloed, but there are many applications today that could be tagged semantically but aren’t.

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                                      The web has been always used mostly for fluff since day 1, and “web assembly” is going to make it more bloated, like the old browser-side java.

                                      The world needs user-centric alternatives once again.

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                                      A compellingly optimistic review! Might try one out myself once they’re refined a bit (by people like you ;-). Any thoughts on or interest in the Pinebook? It looks neat but I fear for the build quality of a laptop that cheap.

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                                        I have a Pinebook (which I was given for free by Pine64), and it’s pretty decent, if your workload is light. I use a lightweight desktop and offload a lot of intensive work to servers off-site (when I’m doing load intensive work at all, which isn’t often). Video playback is dubious but it handles sway, some music, a web browser, and a bunch of terminals just fine - which describes my typical workstation well.

                                        That being said, I don’t use it today, for a few reasons:

                                        • I was given an EU power cord and pulling out an adapter is annoying.
                                        • I’m madly in love with my old school thinkpads and the Pinebook isn’t going to change that.
                                        • When I was opening up the Pinebook to tinker with the insides a bit, I broke the plastic on the hinge, which makes opening and closing it really cumbersome and fragile. Tip: if you open the Pinebook up, do not bend the hinge without closing everything up again first.

                                        This was my experience with the original Pinebook, I haven’t tried the Pro.

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                                          I don’t own one, but a friend brought a Pinebook Pro to the club some time ago.

                                          I first thought it was a new Thinkpad with improved build quality. The Pinebook feels sturdier than 90% of what you get to buy from other vendors where you often pay 20 times the price.

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                                            Spend a little, get a little, but if you’re mindful of how little you spent it can be worth it :).

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                                              At that price point it’s competing not with other new laptops, but with used thinkpads.

                                              Ideologically there’s more to like about the pinebook, but other than that it’s a hard sell vs a T420s.

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                                              I have a Pinebook Pro that I generally like, particularly as a replacement for a general browsing experience like on an ipad or other tablet. I prefer having a keyboard available, and I happen to like the form factor of a laptop. It’s a solid case with a nice keyboard and a pretty good monitor for the price. The battery life is pretty good and it shows the processor percentage being used in the taskbar by default, which is nice.

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                                              My biggest pet peeve is how many people want JavaScript to be the language they know best. Some come from Ruby and want it to be Ruby. Some from Java who want it to be Java. Some from Python.. you get the idea. I do like the amount of attention JS gets, but all of the various proposals that are not quite there yet that keep being used as if they are (like decorators/annotations) drive me a little bit nuts. I’ve been using JS for a really long time and I don’t feel like it’s missing that much stuff. It really just needed some things cleaned up (which has generally happened over time).

                                              Also the insistence that JS needed “class” syntax (though it still isn’t classical inheritance), which was implemented, and now many people are trying to move back to functions/functional-based programming, throwing out the whole class baby with the bathwater. There’s too much flux there and not necessarily for the best reasons.

                                              I am with the other guy who was talking about bundling and packaging things. If I can avoid it and use modern browsers, I do. But the reality is that those bundlers are still very useful particularly on applications that work on older browsers.

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                                                It’s not just Javascript. I can make the same argument with Lua—the Pythonists that come to Lua want it to be Python; the Rubyists want Lua to look like Ruby, etc. It takes time to learn the lingo of a new language, and it’s darn it, it would be easier if it was just like <old language I know>.

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                                                  ES5 for life!

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                                                  I just skimmed through, but … is it just me or there’s no authentication? Does it mean I can spam like hell just by putting the script in a while loop? This seems odd.

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                                                    They’ll blacklist where you are sending it from pretty quickly if you spam. Each individual carrier controls those things (in the US at least)

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                                                      Actually I have tried that on my friends and number only gets blocked if they choose otherwise you can send more than 500 since daily sending limit of gmail is 500 emails

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                                                        I also thought so at first, but after re-reading there is an SMTP login. I’m currently under the impression that I might have misunderstood the article. At first I thought you have to check the recipient’s carrier and use the correct gateway for each recipient.

                                                        Now I think that you have to use the gateway of your own carrier and your carrier will forward it within the SMS network. At least this seems to be how it works in Austria (but there was not too much information during a quick research either). Since mobile phone numbers are unique this should work. If you are a customer of example.com and your recipient is a customer of example.net, you basically send a mail to 12345@smsgateway.example.com and example.com gateway will know “aha, this is an SMS from our dear customer A, that should go to 12345. 12345 is part of carrier example.net, so we will send it there. Now we will charge customer A 10 cents for the SMS”.

                                                        But this requires that you do not only have SMS with that carrier, but also an email account (or at least an email account with the gateway). Which is true for the case I researched in Austria. In fact it seems you only need an email account with that provider and do not need to have an SMS account at all.

                                                        Update

                                                        Ok, no, you are right. The login in the article indeed goes against smtp.gmail.com. In this case, the US system is different from the system I found in Austria (where the mail gateway basically is a service provided by the telco company to business customers and they will then handle SMS submission).

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                                                        I got a Pinebook Pro as well. It’s too early to really add any big learnings from it at this point, but I will say that I really dislike the touchpad. It has some drift issues to it where after I finish moving my finger, the cursor continues in that path as if it has some sort of momentum. It’s very odd and can be irritating.

                                                        I quite like the keyboard. It’s nice to type on. I’ve had trouble getting VS Code to run on it due to the whole arm thing, but I have seen other folks getting VS Code to work on arm. To be honest, I haven’t tried very hard to make it work.

                                                        If anyone has suggestions for things to try out (IDEs, programming languages, compilations, etc), feel free to request here and I’ll see if I can oblige this week. I’m off until I start my new gig on Monday!

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                                                          I haven’t used peertube much, but it seems jittery on my computer (2017 macbook 12” retina). Youtube has no issues for me. What are the real benefits of using peertube as a user? I understand the “owning your content” aspect on the creator side.

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                                                            When you consume a creator’s YouTube content as a user, you’re also the subject of a third-party’s behavioral modification system, so you may find value in not being subject to that system.

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                                                              On top of that, an activitypub system builds in moderation tools from the beginning, so you can use your client’s built-in block/mute system when you encounter bad actors instead of relying on clicking “Report” in youtube and hoping that someone actually pays attention to your complaint.

                                                              Plus you’re tapping into an existing network of millions of users across a much wider scope than Youtube has; Youtube allows some degree of embedding, but it’s designed as a silo that tries to get as much traffic back to its own servers. Youtube has one model of community, and if you don’t like it you can go somewhere else. The Fediverse is that “somewhere else”.

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                                                                PeerTube has been criticized for not including moderation tools in itself, though.

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                                                                  PeerTube has moderation tools and has had those for quite a while. What the project has been criticised for is that it was not possible to reject followers, i.e. other instances which mirror all videos. This was seen as problematic because the videos might be shared by people with different political opinions who might add critical or ‘hurtful’ comments to the videos. The debate went the way these debates usually go, with labels and epithets being thrown around at those insensitive developers who dared to criticise this demand for a feature. Suggestions to submit a PR were met with ridicule and more labelling.

                                                                  …and somehow the project still ended up with the demanded feature, it is now possible to mandate manual approval for following instances.

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                                                              Access to videos published on peertube?

                                                              Users go where the content is, application quality be damned.

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                                                                My follow-up would be: what content is there that’s worth following? I have a bunch of yt channels that I subscribe to and have interesting content. I haven’t really seen much other than french stuff on pt.

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                                                                  I would make sense for organizations/conferences like CCC. On the other hand, they already have a working system.

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                                                                    TBH, I wouldn’t know.

                                                                    One significant issue I see with PT is that creating good videos costs time/money, and PT has no real monetization story (see https://github.com/Chocobozzz/PeerTube/issues/1586 ). I suspect that’s quite closely related to ‘why is there not more good content on PT’.

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                                                                      I thought that might be the issue. Youtube is a bit demonized I think, because overall it is a pretty good platform for viewers. I don’t see something like peertube taking over Youtube in any regard, but more of a niche thing that will be for free content that, frankly, most people don’t care about.

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                                                                        YouTube is particularly demonised for “demonetising” videos (or whole accounts) without meaningful explanation or recourse.

                                                                        Professional creators typically run accounts on at least two services (eg twitch and YouTube) because of this - if PT let them get paid while mitigating their platform risks they would be all over it.

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                                                                        The paid content can stay on YT and the free content can come over to PT.

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                                                                          That’s largely already happened. Quite a few PT people are unhappy that there were so few, though.

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                                                                            Unlikely… PT is still way way way to the left of the adoption curve. Only the cool, trendy, adventurous people have moved over.

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                                                                        I think its possible and ethical to mirror videos if the creator is ‘paid’ via in video, sponsorship ads instead of pop up style ads.

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                                                                          Sponsors will presumably want accurate viewership numbers to determine future deals. With untracked views from mirrors, the creator will lose out.

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                                                                            referral links have that and are built into the link, they also track actual sales numbers so it’s quite obvious if a particular ’tuber produces sales or not..

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                                                                              That doesn’t help prospective sponsors though. Plus it inflates conversion rates, which makes the numbers unreliable, even if it’s good for sales short-term.

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                                                                      If YouTube censors the content of a creator you as a user care about, you can still see it on a different platform run by someone other than YouTube, using PeerTube to promulgate the video.

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                                                                        I’ll be honest here, I don’t really watch anything on Youtube that I would consider controversial or censor-worthy, so i don’t think this would be a real issue for me. However, if someone is censored, I think they’d have to be a free channel to even consider peertube. And if someone else is mirroring that video, the creator isn’t getting anything for it.

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                                                                          It doesn’t matter what you consider controversial or censor-worthy, it matters what YouTube employees or automated systems that they write do.

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                                                                      Good. The web is 30 years of tech debt. It’s worse than the Java standard library, and even that doesn’t have to deal with JavaScript.

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                                                                        There’s absolutely nothing good about this. The advantage of the web stack is that it’s ubiquitous and backwards compatible. You can take a web app from a decade ago, open it in a modern browser, and it’ll just work on pretty much any OS. Meanwhile, good luck trying to compile an iOS app from a year go.

                                                                        Thanks to web tech we now have lots of mainstream applications on Linux that just wouldn’t exist otherwise. This has done wonders for Linux adoption in my opinion. Now you can run things like VS Code, Slack, and so on without having to hope they work through Wine.

                                                                        While it’s currently less performant, VS Code shows that you can clearly get pretty good results with it. And this will only get better going forward. Just look at how much Js engines have improved over the years. And again, this benefits all platforms out of the box.

                                                                        Meanwhile, you absolutely do not need to use Js nowadays. I’ve been using ClojureScript for around 5 years now, I can’t remember the last time I had to write a single line of Js. The dev experience is also strictly superior to any native tech I’ve used. Here’s an example of what it looks like in practice with immediate live feedback on the code as you’re writing it.

                                                                        This alone is a killer feature for writing UIs in my opinion because you often end up doing a lot of experimentation with component placement. And the amount of time you save by being able to share code across platforms is huge. Maintaining 5 different versions of the app for Windows, Mac, Linux, Android, and iOS is a herculean effort that’s simply beyond what many teams are able to do effectively.

                                                                        Instead of fighting web tech, I think it would be much more productive to look at how this stack can be improved and optimized to address the shortcomings.

                                                                        1. 16

                                                                          Thanks to web tech we now have lots of mainstream applications on Linux that just wouldn’t exist otherwise

                                                                          What I find hilarious about this is that electron apps are absolutely not portable. Like.. OpenBSD recently got an electron port (much… much much to my surprise :D).. but you will never be able to run apps like Spotify.. because they ship binary blobs for the DRM..

                                                                          In essence, you have what looks like a more open ecosystem because linux is supported.. and linux is open source!.. and now these apps run on it!… but it is in fact… it isn’t any more open than microsoft office… or what ever app you want to compare it to!

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            There is the technology itself which is open source and allows writing open source apps that work on top of it. There are plenty of open source projects using Electron as well as commercial ones. VS Code is a perfect example of a completely open source app that now runs on many platforms and provides an accessible IDE for thousands of developers.

                                                                            1. 6

                                                                              VScode has non-opensource components.

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                I’m not aware of any non-open source components in VSCdoium.

                                                                          2. 5

                                                                            Thanks to web tech we now have lots of mainstream applications on Linux that just wouldn’t exist otherwise

                                                                            (my emphasis)

                                                                            That’s great. But the linked submission is about the macOS platform. Is it really so dominant that stopping Electron app updates in the App Store will deal the platform Web tech a death blow?

                                                                            If nothing else, I’d imagine the this would be an opportunity for the competitors to macOS.

                                                                            (edit clarification)

                                                                            1. 2

                                                                              It mostly harms macOS users since it makes it harder for them to get and update the apps they use. I don’t really understand why Apple should decide for me what apps I get to run on my computer or how I run them.

                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                OK I see your point now regarding who it harms.

                                                                                As I understand it, this is a halt to the update of Electron apps in the macOS App Store. Surely it’s still possible to install “normally”? I seem to remember just installing Discord from the Discord web page, not via the App Store.

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  But now you have to go through unofficial channels to do it, so it’s becoming a workaround the official solution.

                                                                            2. -1

                                                                              I’m with you on the points about the web being ubiquitous and backwards-compatible. I love JavaScript, though, and it’s incredible how much better it has gotten over the years. A lot of people struggle with basics in JS because it isn’t what they’re comfortable with (e.g. prototypal vs classical inheritance) and just give up on that alone. The reason JS gets so much attention and so many improvements, though, is because it is ubiquitous. There is no other language or platform that gets as much attention, as many open source contributions, as many quality of life updates.

                                                                              Most folks who “hate” JS only remember goofy things from ye olde JS or never bothered to learn anything after seeing some syntax they don’t like or “no strict typing.”

                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                I strongly prefer ClojureScript because it’s a cleaner and simpler language with a more stable ecosystem, and better tooling.

                                                                                Nowadays Js is huge, and there are many different ways to do any one thing with libraries using all kinds of different patterns to do things. All this directly results in tons of mental overhead that you wouldn’t have otherwise. At the same time, there is a ton of churn in the ecosystem with things changing or becoming obsolete often in a matter of months.

                                                                                By contrast, Clojure is a focused language that encourages a common way of solving problems. I’ve been using Reagent and re-frame for years now, and the APIs are still largely the same, only things I’ve had to do to move to new versions was update the version numbers in my projects. This is especially nice considering that Reagent uses React internally, and I’ve been protected from the churn there.

                                                                                ClojureScript s-exp syntax completely obviates the need for things like JSX, and defaulting to immutability makes the code much easier to manage since you can safely do local reasoning about parts of your application.

                                                                                ClojureScript compiler can do code pruning down to function level, something that’s completely impossible to do with Js. It also handlers code splitting and minification out of the box. This is incredibly useful for writing web apps where you’re sending your code to they client.

                                                                                Hot loading just works in ClojureScript while it’s pretty much impossible to get working properly in Js due to pervasive mutability.

                                                                                And since ClojureScript is hosted I get access to all of the Js ecosystem if I need it.

                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                  I didn’t make it clear in my original post, but I’m 100% behind people who prefer something like clojurescript, elm, or anything else that can be compiled to run on the web. It’s really a personal preference. I just wanted to make it clear that JS itself is not some sort of abomination that must be avoided at all costs.

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    That’s fair, JS and its ecosystem has come a long way, and you could certainly do worse.

                                                                            3. 9

                                                                              The web is the only application platform that isn’t owned. I’d like to keep it.

                                                                              1. 13

                                                                                Give Google a few more years and they’ll own it officially, and not just inofficially as they do now.

                                                                                1. 6

                                                                                  Only if you let them. As it stands now it is still fairly easy to avoid most of their products and services except for reCaptcha and gmail and, unfortunately, except for those who go to a school or work at a company or government institution which has standardised on Google services.

                                                                                  Don’t use Chromium or its closed-source derivative Chrome. Stay away from Chromebooks. Use AOSP-derived Android forks without the Google Services Framework, playstore or Google apps. Use a meta-search engine as a proxy to Google search. Don’t publish on Youtube, use Peertube (self-hosted or otherwise) or Vimeo or some other alternative. No Gmail but Email, please.

                                                                                  This is what I’ve been doing for ages, not out of spite for Google - which, years ago, was seen as one of the good forces on the ‘net against evil Microsoft and greedy SCO/Oracle/etc - but because open protocols and free software just make more sense. That I’ve been vindicated by Google wiping the ‘evil’ out of their corporate motto only confirms this stance.

                                                                                  1. 6

                                                                                    I finally got off all the Google services this year. I replaced gdrive, contacts, and calendar with nextcloud on a digital ocean droplet, and I went with fastmail for my mail. I’m still on android, but don’t actually use any of the Google apps. I’m likely get FairPhone next and completely avoid anything directly associated with Google. I find Firefox works pretty well as a browser on both Android too.

                                                                                    I find I don’t really miss the gsuit at all, and nextcloud has been pretty painless to maintain as well. So, getting off Google really all that bad nowadays.

                                                                                    1. 8

                                                                                      I’ve got a HP DL380g7 in a sound-insulated, force-ventilated rack which doubles as a drying cabinet, the heat generated by the equipment in top is used to dry produce on 8 racks in the bottom section. I built that enclosure using some left-over supermarket shelves which I found in a dumpster, a stack of lumber, a forced draft fan and the largest car air filter I could find. The drying racks are made of wood with metal meshing to allow for an uninterrupted air flow. The thing is managed using Proxmox and runs, among other things:

                                                                                      • mail: exim/greylistd/spamassassin/dovecot/managesieve, roundcube for web mail
                                                                                      • media: airsonic
                                                                                      • video: peertube
                                                                                      • photo sharing : experimenting with pixelfed, phasing out openphoto
                                                                                      • messaging: xmpp
                                                                                      • revision control front end: gitea
                                                                                      • search: searx, recoll (as a local search plugin for searx)
                                                                                      • ‘cloud’: nextcloud
                                                                                      • ‘office’: libreoffice online (through CODE in Nextcloud)
                                                                                      • backup: rsnapshot

                                                                                      The same server also is used as build server and will soon be used as a virtual router (using pfsense). I’m looking into expanding storage using a Netapp DS4243 or DS4246 used as a JBOD shelf. Services are used by me, family and friends and as remote backup for some of those. In return I’m using their storage as remote backup.

                                                                                      Of course it is not necessary to go to such lengths to become self-reliant when it comes to IT services, for most people a Raspberry Pi with some external storage will suffice.

                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                        I’ve got a HP DL380g7 in a sound-insulated, force-ventilated rack which doubles as a drying cabinet, the heat generated by the equipment in top is used to dry produce on 8 racks in the bottom section. I built that enclosure using some left-over supermarket shelves which I found in a dumpster, a stack of lumber, a forced draft fan and the largest car air filter I could find. The drying racks are made of wood with metal meshing to allow for an uninterrupted air flow.

                                                                                        do you have anything written or pictures on that, it sounds interesting :)

                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                          Not really, I could whip up something if there is interest but given the one-off nature of this project caused by it being based around left-over materials it does not lend itself to duplication unless you happen upon the same type of left-overs.

                                                                                          Here’s some images of the (mostly) finished enclosure:

                                                                                          https://imgur.com/a/M4Lbf1K

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            thanks for the pictures! using the waste heat to dry produce is brilliant imho :) it’s always nice to see such builds, even if not directly reproduceable some ideas may be transferred :)

                                                                                    2. 2

                                                                                      I thought you were satirizing until the last paragraph.

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        So we can also ignore HTTP/2 (which was shoved down the IETF’s throat) and HTTP/3 (which is currently being shoved down the IETF’s throat)?

                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                          That depends on the merits of those protocols and whether there are several independent implementations. The mere fact that something comes from Google does not mean it is untouchable. The idea to re-use a connection (HTTP/2) is valid, as to the merits of HTTP/3 I can not make any statement as I have not looked at this protocol yet.

                                                                                          What can and should be ignored is something like AMP since that does lead to more power to be concentrated into the hands of a single party, i.e. Google. If AMP were to be changed into some form of compressed protocol which can be self-hosted without any outside dependencies this could change.

                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                            You can reuse a connection on HTTP/1.1 (serially, not concurrently though). And HTTP/2 is basically TCP over TCP. It’s not faster (because the same amount of data is being sent to the same destination) but it does duplicate functionality that’s in the kernel, and it still suffers from head-blocking (only more so). HTTP/3 is TCP over UDP, which gets around the head-blocking issue, but still duplicates a lot of functionality from the kernel into userspace.

                                                                                            And all of this was developed because it serves Google’s needs.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              Reusing connections in HTTP/1 works but is a hack. HTTP/2 might not be the best way to go (and the same goes for HTTP/3 (or ‘HTTP over QUIC’ [1])) but there are independent implementations. Also, feel free to ignore HTTP/2, the web works fine without it.

                                                                                              Don’t confuse the messenger with the message, it is the message which counts. When Google says ‘route all traffic through us’ (viz. AMP) the answer should be no. When they say ‘re-use a single connection for multiple requests’ the answer can be ‘sounds good’ or ‘fine but this duplicates functionality’ or ‘good plan but this belongs in the kernel’ or something along those lines.

                                                                                              [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QUIC

                                                                                      2. 1

                                                                                        They own the web inofficially? Care to elaborate? My reasoning was that there is a w3c/whatwg standards process that isn’t controlled by one single business (like the app store is) and isn’t tied to share holder interests. In fact, the web b and html have some guiding principles that put users first. Over website authors or browser makers.

                                                                                        I think that’s damn good in comparison to an app store.

                                                                                        But please let me know what you meant!

                                                                                    3. 0

                                                                                      macOS/iOS are older than web. If you want to avoid tech debt dump that shit.

                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                        What?

                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                          Objective C and NeXTStep are 80s tech. Swift and iOS are constrained by their legacy.

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            This feels like a bit of a straw-man argument—I am not sure that this is really any different to anything else. The C programming language is 70s tech, born in the PDP age. The world hates the dangers of C these days (because it’s not Rust or something) and yet the Linux kernel, written in C, runs in seemingly everything. Would you also argue that Linux has been constrained by the legacy of the PDP and that the C language has not evolved at all in that time?

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              I was responding to a claim that the web is tech debt. Straw man vs straw man.

                                                                                    1. 47

                                                                                      Please do. I don’t have a Mac or iPhone, but I can respect encouraging native application development.

                                                                                      1. 21

                                                                                        I can’t remember who said it but “the Web set user interface development back by twenty years” or something to that effect.

                                                                                        1. 8

                                                                                          If you want to develop for either of those platforms, you will have to buy a mac. That fact alone should raise some flags for folks.

                                                                                          1. 11

                                                                                            Why is that a bad thing? I’d expect a developer targeting Windows to have a machine with Windows installed.

                                                                                            I can cross-compile to Windows from my Gentoo machine with a mingw toolchain just fine, but I would never want to release any of those artifacts without testing them properly in the target environment.

                                                                                            1. 12

                                                                                              I’d expect a developer targeting Windows to have a machine with Windows installed.

                                                                                              but a Mac isn’t an iPad or iPhone. Apple requires you to have their computer to target their other device, even if you happen to own the other device.

                                                                                              1. 7

                                                                                                Of all the companies out there whose exclusive little ecosystem I could choose to import my entire life into, Apple seems the most likely to shaft me, both as a developer and a user.

                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                  Apple seems the most likely to shaft me, both as a developer and a user

                                                                                                  Could you elaborate on that? I don’t have a strong opinion for or against, I’m just genuinely curious about your reasons.

                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                    This article demonstrates the pattern I’ve observed well: https://lobste.rs/s/tdkwyq/future_my_games_on_apple_post_catalina

                                                                                                    As far as Apple is concerned, developing for their platform is a privilege. And using it means letting them make all the decisions for you. This is not what I want from my tools.

                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                      I can only share my personal experience, but as someone who has had an Apple device for only a couple months, I was shafted very soon after I joined the Apple ecosystem when my iPhone SE installed a slower, buggier OS, without asking, and with no possibility to revert.

                                                                                                      Part of me knew I was signing up for this mistreatment but it still sucks.

                                                                                                  2. 2

                                                                                                    It’s a bad thing because it’s an extra step which requires the purchase of hardware from a particular company. Windows development requires developers to purchase nonfree software, as you point out, which is not as bad but still a problem. Web development does not require any of this.

                                                                                                2. 4

                                                                                                  I think it’s better to have 10 apps, 2 natives and 8 web apps, rather than to have just 2 native apps altogether. I think web application programming enabled lots of people to create their own apps. Maybe they’re not the best apps, they are large and slow; but nobody forces anyone to use them.

                                                                                                  1. 7

                                                                                                    but nobody forces anyone to use them.

                                                                                                    Until their employer adopts Slack.

                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                      You can just use it on your desktop or laptop, no?

                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                        I am sorry, but I don’t understand what you mean. If the argument is that web apps are ok because you don’t need to use them, but you DO have to use them for your work, then how does it matter where you run them?

                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                          I was asking if OP is forced to use the Slack app on their phone, or if he has the option of using the desktop version.

                                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                                          Slack on desktop is the web version, it’s electron.

                                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                                            But you’re not forced to use electron apps on your phone, at least.

                                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                                              I’m positive that’s only because they won’t run.

                                                                                                              If it was feasible people would release iOS apps built with electron. Guaranteed.

                                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                                I was under the impression that /u/yakubin said people might be forced to use electron apps on their phone, where they are slow. So I asked if employees have the option of just using the desktop version.

                                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                                  Electron apps don’t AFAIK run on any mobile device.

                                                                                                                  They’re slow on any device.

                                                                                                                  What is your point?

                                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                                    What’s yours? I was just saying employees have the option of just using desktop Slack, if their employer uses Slack.

                                                                                                        3. 1

                                                                                                          I’d rather use Slack than Microsoft Lync / Skype for Business!

                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                            Weird, I’d rather use Microsoft Teams than Slack ;)

                                                                                                    1. 37

                                                                                                      There are a lot of bad takes in here. It sounds like this person is angry at young programmers, not trying to help them.

                                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                                        While I think many of the Falsehoods (some set of people) Still Believe lists convey useful actionable information, this one not so much. It feels way heavier in sarcasm than the more useful lists.

                                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                                          I didn’t take this as angry at all. Do you feel personally attacked by the list?

                                                                                                          1. 9

                                                                                                            Not in the slightest - in fact I empathize with the author in a few places, albeit probably for different reasons. Plainly, this post is condescending and makes harmful generalizations about young programmers.

                                                                                                            Edit: “stereotypes” is probably a better word than “generalizations” here

                                                                                                            1. 4

                                                                                                              I know people who have graduated with CS degrees in their 40s.. so, generalizations.

                                                                                                              1. 8

                                                                                                                You know that, I know that. Does this author?

                                                                                                                They are good at multi-tasking, as is evident from their ability to take notes in class and check Facebook at the same time..

                                                                                                              2. 4

                                                                                                                I didn’t take it that way. I took as a slightly exasperated but in-good-fun calling out of common problems.

                                                                                                                I think it’s more likely to help than harm.

                                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                                  I think you’re probably taking it way too seriously

                                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                                    I would say “inaccurate” rather than “harmful” - lots of accurate generalizations about groups are harmful or perceived as harmful. The problem with a line like “TED talks are Science(TM) and the information presented is accurate.” is that there’s no particularly good reason to believe that graduating CS students are more likely than other demographics to view TED talks as accurate, unbiased sources of information, not that if this were the case people should feel obligated not to say so in order to prevent some kind of harm coming to graduating CS students as a class.

                                                                                                              1. 39

                                                                                                                A note to our younger readers, please ignore lists like these. People who’ve been around the block will know to just ignore this nonsense, but younger people may take it seriously.

                                                                                                                The only reasonably accurate statements about life, in this context, are

                                                                                                                1. The world is full of people giving free advice. The advice may even have worked for them, at some point, even not by chance.
                                                                                                                2. You have to figure out your strengths, weaknesses and favorites yourself. This is a lifelong process. They change all the time. You should keep looking.
                                                                                                                3. You have to keep learning to ensure you remain relevant.
                                                                                                                4. You will always find someone who will help you, but you have to ask.
                                                                                                                1. 17

                                                                                                                  I feel like we read different lists, because this one didn’t read as any prescriptive advice or something that people shouldn’t take seriously. It was basically telling students they don’t know as much as they think they do and they can learn from people in the industry. I would say that is 10000% good advice.

                                                                                                                  1. 14

                                                                                                                    The problem with this format is that it says a lot of what’s wrong but doesn’t provide any way to learn what’s “right”, or even a clue about how to get that experience. I agree it reads like someone who’s angry, whether the author intended it that way or not.

                                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                                      this format is that it says a lot of what’s wrong but doesn’t provide any way to learn what’s “right”

                                                                                                                      That’s just the format of this sort of post, exemplified by the original(?) “falsehoods programmers believe about time”.

                                                                                                                      1. 14

                                                                                                                        The original was “falsehoods programmers believe about names”, which gets a pass for being the first. The format is kinda junk for actually learning about the problem domain, so if you want to make a good Falsehoods you really should explain why.

                                                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                                                          imo in addition to the lack of explanation, “falsehoods X believe about Y”-style articles are toxic because they’re a convenient way to snipe at others. With this post, the author can hide behind “being helpful” while ascribing a bunch of naive/incorrect/otherwise bad beliefs to a huge class of people.

                                                                                                                          1. 4

                                                                                                                            I think they should at the very list include pointers for learning why it’s false.

                                                                                                                            Like in my ultimate snowclone, a list of falsehoods about falsehoods. ;)

                                                                                                                          2. 7

                                                                                                                            Sure I understand that, but I’m saying it’s a bad format for conveying information.

                                                                                                                            I think the original may have been pithy and effective. But it got mimicked, and it’s become ineffective.

                                                                                                                            If the goal is to appear smug and create clickbait, then it’s effective :)

                                                                                                                        2. 2

                                                                                                                          My opinions

                                                                                                                          1. A list of things you shouldn’t believe is advice
                                                                                                                          2. This list is full of absolutes that shouldn’t be taken seriously.
                                                                                                                        3. 5

                                                                                                                          People who’ve been around the block will know to just ignore this nonsense, but younger people may take it seriously.

                                                                                                                          Unfortunately this list is pretty accurate when it comes to what undergrads (in my experience) are being taught along with other falsehoods like “MD5 is a good password hashing algorithm” if your classes even get that far.

                                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                                          I started remote work maybe about 5 years after I began working professionally. I had established some idea of what was expected of me and what I expected of myself before beginning that. I also already had one child and another on the way. Remote work gave me the opportunity to build a life I wanted, rather than something I could only dream of if I had moved to a city and stayed there (or, alternatively, stayed working local at a smaller town).

                                                                                                                          I never had the traveler’s bug. My dad moved us around when I was a kid, and I think that gave me enough of a sense of travel that I never had much interest beyond that when I got older. And now I’m 36 with 3 kids, owning a home in an area I really like for about 5 years. All 3 kids are deeply embedded in the school and local culture. My wife has friends here. My parents moved nearby 3 years ago. I joined a fraternal organization for social interaction and a rugby team for physical exercise.

                                                                                                                          The problems described in this article do not feel like remote gig problems to me. They’re self-created problems of not knowing where to go or what to do with yourself, isolating yourself even further outside of work, and avoiding family (for better or worse) because you’re not tied to a particular area.

                                                                                                                          I am about to go back to an in-office gig and I’m not really very excited about that aspect of it. I do enjoy some social interactions from work, but really I like to just hang out at home and do my job. I get enough social stuff outside of work to keep me happy there. If you’re worried about being judged on what you add to an organization, I will recommend going to a huge corporation. There are tons of people there who do little to nothing all day and still advance.

                                                                                                                          1. 14

                                                                                                                            The worst was starting at Nickelodeon in early 2008. To begin with, the hiring process was really weird and took months. I mean months after I did my final interview. I ended up accepting another job, but they called during my 2-week wind down at my previous gig, so I just switched to going there instead.

                                                                                                                            I showed up for work and they had no desk. Then they found a spot I could use, but had no computer. Eventually they found an old one no one was using and let me have it. It was a terrible machine, probably one of those bulk discount machines you see at places like Best Buy. Then they had no monitor. I had to wait the majority of the day for them to find me an old CRT that flickered like crazy.

                                                                                                                            After that whole mess, I spent a full week with nothing to do. Someone printed out the docs for JBoss and put them on my desk to read. I kept asking for work, but they weren’t sure what to give me.

                                                                                                                            It was, by far, the worst onboarding experience I’ve ever had. But it was also the place I worked at the longest. Funny how that works out.

                                                                                                                            1. 9

                                                                                                                              It was, by far, the worst onboarding experience I’ve ever had. But it was also the place I worked at the longest. Funny how that works out.

                                                                                                                              Why did you stick around? What was worthwhile about the job?

                                                                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                                                                I really liked the people I worked with there. I still have friends who have also moved on, and I worked at a startup with a few of them about a year after I left (which lasted about 2.5 years before crumbling).

                                                                                                                                It wasn’t groundbreaking work, but we had fun for the most part.

                                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                                              I don’t know that a few issues here matches up to the myriad issues I had when I was using Linux at that time that were far more trivial. I do agree that Apple has done some curious things with its desktop OS over the years, though. It seems like they’ve been neglecting it a bit, although I don’t work there and can’t really comment on it aside from observations. I still like macOS, even with its goofy problems.

                                                                                                                              1. 29

                                                                                                                                I don’t own any macs, but I think it is worth considering the flipside of this article - that Linux in 2019 is actually very good at hardware compatibility. I run the Wayland/wlroots window manager Sway on my laptop (a Dell XPS), and recently had cause to connect it to a Samsung TV. I expected to have to poke around with the Sway config and perhaps with drivers to get things working nicely but to my pleasant surprise, the display worked instantly as soon as I plugged it in. I am very grateful to the hard-working devs who have toiled over the subsystems which allow this sort of seamless, stress-free computing. Those of us who use libre software must be cognisant that these sorts of usability victories represent a lot of hard and often thankless work.

                                                                                                                                1. 8

                                                                                                                                  It’s a lot of hard work by a lot of people, including the people who make hardware standards. Moving from everything connecting via serial port and needing low-level device support to things connecting over USB and HDMI has been a big step up. That isn’t a panacea, and it still represents a lot of work done by software developers to support these new hardware standards, but more of the work can be done once, and improved, instead of having to be done multiple times over. (Plus, of course, there’s also the hardware that’s simply died, like Winmodems and Zip drives. Especially Winmodems, which by-and-large never worked on Linux.)

                                                                                                                                  1. 6

                                                                                                                                    Especially Winmodems

                                                                                                                                    I had an Amiga so, not only could I not use a Winmodem, I couldn’t even use an internal modem. True external modems were often twice the price of an internal modem, and three times the price of a Winmodem…it hurt.

                                                                                                                                  2. 7

                                                                                                                                    that Linux in 2019 is actually very good at hardware compatibility.

                                                                                                                                    Within the past year:

                                                                                                                                    I bought a Lenovo IdeaPad and tried to install Linux on it. It failed with a kernel panic. The ACPI tables in the BIOS were incorrect but in a way that Windows didn’t mind. Disabling ACPI via kernel parameters got the system to boot (though obviously this was not preferable), but then the graphics card was unsupported and I got a side-by-side mirroring effect on the internal display.

                                                                                                                                    I bought an Acer laptop. Linux didn’t support the sound card.

                                                                                                                                    I bring these up not to say that Linux sucks but to say that I was genuinely surprised that these things happened. It was the first time in maybe a decade that Linux didn’t support everything out-of-the-box.

                                                                                                                                    (Except for printers. I have a PoS HP home printer that supposedly has Linux support but it’s hit or miss whether it shows up on the network, can print, will finish a print job, or print the right thing when asked. This is also not a Linux problem: printers have always sucked.)

                                                                                                                                    1. 8

                                                                                                                                      IIRC from my conversations with FreeBSD kernel devs: Microsoft has a broken implementation of ACPI, and hardware manufacturers cater to that. Open source projects implement ACPI as defined by the spec, but then run into bugs.

                                                                                                                                    2. 6

                                                                                                                                      I had the same experience with the same setup (Sway + XPS), everything worked out of the box with the Dell Adapter and HDMI. Very smooth experience!

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                                                                                                                                        I built a plex server earlier this year and got some sort of no-name chinese 7” LCD display so I could avoid having to SSH into it all the time if I wanted to do some small tasks. I plugged it in, it worked. The same thing happened with a knockoff TV I have for my guest room that I initially was using with it. I remember fighting with linux distros for weeks at a time over the dumbest issues when I first got into it (late 90s), but it’s so streamlined now.

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                                                                                                                                        Part of me thinks this is a good idea because Perl 6 has been in this sort of.. semi-existent? state for far too long and Perl itself has a lot of preconceived notions (..and baggage) that come with it.

                                                                                                                                        But part of me also wonders if it actually matters. I haven’t really seen much demand for Perl 6 over the years. I have seen a lot of Perl 5 users who are perfectly happy with Perl 5, though.

                                                                                                                                        1. 7

                                                                                                                                          I’m absolutely happy with Perl 5 and continue to use it on a daily basis. It’s been my go-to scripting language ever since I learned 4.036 in 1995 for a computational linguistics course (it determined parts of speech with a dictionary and a basic grammar, and I got an A).

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                                                                                                                                          You’ve just generated the CAGED system. I’m guessing you may be familiar with it already, but if not it’s common in student teaching with guitar.