1. 6

    I wonder if this is more or less the end of the road for the librem 5?

    This offers similar openness, same software capability and slightly better specs (I think…). And hardware privacy switches too. For half the price, assuming Chinese assembly meets your requirements. (If you need a US-manufactured device, Librem offers that for $2000-ish, and Pine does not.)

    And given the respective companies’ track records, it seems likely the ’Pro will ship in quantity well before the listed 52-week lead time on the non-US-manufactured Librem 5.

    I was on the fence between replacing my iPhone’s battery or just replacing the whole phone. I think this announcement has pushed me toward replacing the battery and revisiting in 8 - 12 months to see if this has developed into something that could be a daily driver for me.

    1. 14

      Purism is targeting a different market; they’re trying to make an ecosystem, a readymade device, that someone can use out of the box and be satisfied with. I don’t think they’re doing all too well with it, but it’s the intent that counts. What Pine does is make tinker toys for engineers. They save money on the device by punting software engineering to the users. (The battery management part made me queasy.)

      1. 7

        I agree with your characterizations of the two intents. What I meant to do in my comment is question whether, given that the software works as well on the pinephone as it does on the Librem, has Pine backdoored their way into (soon) hitting that “someone can use out of the box and be satisfied with” goal for technical users better than Purism has even though they were aiming for something else entirely.

      2. 8

        A big difference for me is that the L5 has privacy switches that are usable. That is, I want the camera and microphone off until I’m receiving a call, then I can flip the switch and answer. With the pinephone (and it looks like the pinephone pro) the switches are buried inside the back which make them interesting but not very usable in day-to-day life.

        Another point as mentioned in other comments is that Purism is funding the software development to make the ecosystem. Pinephone gets the benefit of that without much of the cost. I hope both succeed so that there is a gradient of capability from the low end to the high end, and a real move off of the duopoly we have now.

        1. 4

          Interesting point about the switches.

          I think Pine has done better than Purism working to get drivers for their components supported by the upstream kernel. I think they’ve also done better getting help out to the various distributions when it comes to supporting the platform. By not having their own distro but getting hardware into developers’ hands, there is a whole ecosystem now. I think if it had been left to purism, you’d have one distro (PureOS) whose development is mostly done behind closed doors plus a couple nice contributions to mobile GNOME.

          In particular, they seemed to have zero interest in upstreaming the PureOS kernel patchset before Pine came along.

          I also hope both succeed, but I’m glad to see a wide-open development model making more of a play.

          1. 6

            The development of PureOS appears to be done in the open; the contribution of libhandy for GNOME was essential to making most of the apps work well in that form factor, and Purism have been supportive of KDE and UbuntuTouch as well. Not sure where the impression of “zero interest in upstreaming the PureOS kernel patchset” comes from or that the pinephone had an influence on that… my impression was the opposite. It’s never fun to maintain forks of the kernel when it’s not necessary, and resources are already tight and heavily invested in the rest of the software stack.

            Purism has made a lot of missteps around communication especially with respect to shipping devices to backers. I haven’t observed any missteps around their commitment to using completely free software with no binary blobs required and getting RYF certification.

            1. 2

              What I meant when I said that development was behind closed doors was that when I visit

              https://pureos.net/

              I can’t find any source control repos, only a bunch of source packages. Which is fine, and still free, but not IMO open development. (That’s not some kind of moral failing, it’s just less interesting to me.)

              My impression about their interest in mainline kernels came from unresponsiveness to inquiries about just that. There didn’t seem to be much movement that direction until just after Pine started booting mainline kernels :). Lack of resources could masquerade as disinterest, for sure, though and maybe it was just that.

              They certainly do seem 100% committed to complete freedom and blob free operation, and that’s excellent. It’s important to have more hardware in the world that works that way, and I think the level of interest in their operation will only convince more people to try building that.

              1. 6

                pureos.net

                Check out https://source.puri.sm/public

                1. 3

                  That is dramatically better than the source link on the front of the PureOS site. Thanks.

        2. 3

          I can relate to the hesitance about making one of these devices your daily driver. What in particular is stopping you? Personally, I’d really want to be sure I can get ample battery life and that all my favorite apps can run, like Discord and Gmail. Obvjously, it also shouldn’t drop calls, fail to receive texts, or anything like that, either

          1. 4

            Last time I checked in, the call, text and MMS functionality was just not ready for prime time. I know that’s been improving quickly, but I haven’t squinted too hard to see where it is. For me to make it a daily driver, I’d need:

            1. Rock solid phone calls
            2. Extremely reliable SMS/MMS receipt
            3. Good headset support
            4. Mostly reliable SMS/MMS sending
            5. Very good 4G data support
            6. Ability for another device to reliably tether/use the phone as a hotspot
            7. A battery that goes an entire workday without needing a charge when being used for voice calls, SMS/MMS and some light data usage

            I’ve heard 1,2,3 were not quite there. 4 is supposedly there for SMS but not MMS, which last time I looked would keep me from using it on some group threads. I believe 5 is there and suspect 6 is just fine. 7 is probably good enough given the swappable, easy-to-find battery.

            When it comes to apps on the phone itself, GPS would be nice to have, but as long as there’s a browser that is somewhat usable, I could stand to tether an iPad or Android tablet until app coverage was robust. I prefer to work from a laptop or tablet anyway. I’d also like to have a decent camera on my phone, but that’s not a hard requirement for me to daily drive one.

            1. 6

              As someone who has not used the sms, MMS, or voice features of any of my devices in a decade, it’s good to be reminded that some people still use these features.

            2. 2

              Can it run Employer mandated apps? Whether you’re delivering food or an engineer, they’re a thing now. Plus whatever app your local government mandates you put on your phone to check COVID-related restrictions.

              To be honest, I think that for most people, the possibility of not owning a phone running one of the two major platforms is long gone.

              1. 16

                A couple of points are that many employers are supportive of variations of GNU/Linux. If yours isn’t, then really consider finding one that better aligns with your values.

                When governments mandate apps there must really be a push to say loudly and clearly that proprietary applications are not acceptable. Quietly accepting and using a Google or Apple device means that the line will keep shifting in the wrong direction. For many (most? really all?) there is still the possibility of not owning a phone from Google or Apple and participating fully in society. It won’t stay that way unless people demand it.

                1. 8

                  Of course employers are supportive of GNU/Linux - when it powers their servers. When it starts to interfere with their employees’ ability to log in to the network, review their schedule or attend meetings, you will see their support dry up quickly.

                  Not owning a Googapple phone is equivalent to not owning a phone as far as policy makers are concerned. Yes, your accessibility is considered, along with that of the elderly, homeless and poor. The notion of an employable person not owning one is increasingly alien to them.

                  1. 6

                    This comment should be boosted, especially for the fact that we are getting closer to the world where only Google or Apple is accepted. This is why I want to support Pine, even if their stuff is not ready.

                  2. 11

                    Can it run Employer mandated apps?

                    I would strongly recommend refusing to allow any company stuff on your private property. Not only is it likely to be spyware, but like, it is also not your problem to do their IT provisioning for them.

                    1. 3

                      It’s not your problem to provision motor vehicles for your employer either, but for many people, using their private car for work isn’t just normal, it’s the cornerstone of their employability.

                      1. 3

                        At least with cars (except for commute to/from the workplace) you can generally get reimbursed for the mileage and it isn’t as likely to be the spyware.

                        But even then, I’d say take advantage of the labor market and start fighting back against them pushing the costs on you.

                    2. 5

                      I’ve never had an employer or government mandate any mobile app. They can’t even usually mandate that you have a mobile device, unless they are providing one.

                      I know lots of people who run various apps that make their employer or government interactions more convenient, but never were they mandatory.

                      1. 4

                        I’ve had an employer mandate that I either, at my option, accept their app on my device or carry their device and use it. I chose to carry two devices, but I understand why my colleagues chose to install the “mandated” apps instead.

                        1. 5

                          Yeah, if they offer me a device I’m always going to take it. No work shit on personal devices ever, but also why would I not take an extra device to have around?

                      2. 3

                        I don’t really have any mandated apps other than OTP authenticators, but there’s a lot I’d miss (i.e quickly sending a message on Slack, or whatever services I use for pleasure; plus stuff like decent clients for whatever service). I could go without, but it certainly wouldn’t be a daily driver.

                        What I might miss more is the stuff other than third-party apps/ecosystem: the quality of the phone and the OS itself, and if they meet my needs. I doubt Pine will make something sized like my 12 mini, or if Plasma Active/phosh will hit the same quality of mouthfeel as iOS (which as a Windows Phone 7/8 refugee, has good mouthfeel since they copied live tiles)

                        1. 1

                          I’m not sure. I remember hearing one of the Linux phones supported Android apps now

                          1. 1

                            I strongly suspect this “Pro” will have enough oomph to run anbox rather nicely. It runs on the current pinephones, but I don’t think it runs particularly well.

                            I don’t know how much of the sensors and other bits (that, say, a ridesharing driver’s app might need) are exposed via Anbox on a pinephone. I also don’t know how much of the google play services stack works in that environment.

                        2. 1

                          The decision to maintain the original PinePhone’s screen resolution of 1440×720 was made early on; higher resolution panels consume more power and increase SoC’s load, resulting in shorter battery life and higher average thermals. A few extra pixels aren’t worth it.

                          Immediately turned me off. High resolution displays are what make these phones satisfactory entertainment devices as well as just communications devices.

                      1. 1

                        This kind of feels like it should be an OpenSCAP tool. Is this really different in some way I’m missing, or is it distinct mainly in an attempt to sell the enterprise version?

                        1. 2

                          Maybe it should be? I just learned about the existence of this tool myself recently, and I’m not familiar at all with OpenSCAP. I care about this class of tool because I run some personal linux servers and I’d like to be able to run a simple command line utility that tells me if I’m making any obvious security mistakes it knows about, which is what lynis looks like it does. If there are other better tools that do similar things, I’d love to hear about them.

                          1. 1

                            You might want to check out the tools from OpenSCAP then. The nice thing about them is that they process a standard scanning and configuration format, and many developers/vendors publish “policies” that tell any tool that can consume that format how to scan and often how to fix configurations.

                            It sounds like there’s a lot of overlap. There also may be no harm in running both for better coverage since neither needs a long-running agent on your system from the looks of it.

                        1. 6

                          An ML model is a glorified lookup table. A hash map is a lookup table. An array is a lookup table.

                          If the value you are looking up is easily computable, it might not need a lookup table.

                          1. 1

                            If the value you are looking up is easily computable, it might not need a lookup table.

                            Obviously, “easily computable” differs based on your environment. For junk I do, the only times my starting position is a lookup table is when IO is involved or when working with a lookup table is much easier for me to model mentally. Otherwise it takes a measurement to drive me towards a lookup table. Even when that “lookup table” only takes the form of throwing @memoize in front of my function declaration.

                          1. 3

                            Host Here.

                            Pauls story is pretty amazing. He started programming with programmable calculators and selling the programs to magazines, then he moved to the Apple II and he also worked on the space shuttle.

                            If you’ve ever thought about leaving the city behind, to do development surrounded by nature, you might like this story.

                            Let me know what you think.

                            1. 1

                              I apologize for asking before listening, but is the whole Reed College thing a coincidence, or did that have something to do with AppleWriter?

                              1. 1

                                I’m not sure of a connection between Paul and Reed College. I think Jobs had some connection but it’s unrelated to this particular story.

                                1. 2

                                  Nice job with the interview, and with the episode now that I’ve listened. This is going into my overcast list for a while.

                                  Last time I read about Paul Lutus, the piece mentioned an award from Reed College, and I thought that implied some affiliation with Reed. It looks like the Vollum award does not imply that at all. It’s coincidental that he and Steve Jobs received the same award and that Mr. Jobs also spent some time as a student at Reed.

                                  1. 1

                                    Oh cool. I didn’t know of that!

                            1. 23

                              He made good things. I learned a whole lot from his cdrtools, scg layer for linux, and smake tool. I didn’t ever meet him personally or have any nontechnical interactions with him online, but he taught me a ton. I would even say the time I spent picking apart the details of how cdrtools and scg worked and the things I learned doing that steered my professional work in directions that I found very rewarding.

                              So here’s some gratitude in that direction and an echo for the “May his software immortalise him.” sentiment expressed by the author.

                              1. 1

                                Reading this makes me really appreciate the tailwindcss approach to breakpoints.

                                I find it far easier to wrap my mind around this:

                                <div class="bg-gray-400 h-screen p-4">
                                  <div class="bg-white rounded-t text-center">
                                    <h1 class="text-xl font-medium">ishadeed.com</h1>
                                  </div>
                                  <div class="flex justify-between py-4 md:space-x-4 h-screen">
                                    <div class="hidden md:block bg-white rounded-lg p-4 flex-none">
                                      <h2 class="text-l font-medium">Left Column</h2>
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="bg-white md:rounded-lg flex-grow">
                                      <h1 class="text-2xl font-bold text-center font-serif">Main Content</h1>
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="hidden md:block bg-white rounded-lg h-screen flex-none p-4">
                                      <h2 class="text-l font-medium">Right Column</h2>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                

                                Which results in this on a wide screen and in this on a narrow screen.

                                Here’s my codepen page if anyone wants to compare complexity and see what’s easier for your own brain.

                                (To be clear… I’m not convinced one approach is better than the other. I have an easier time applying the tailwind one to the stuff I do, probably due to years of backend brain warp. It would make sense to me if it broke differently for someone with a different background.)

                                1. 6

                                  I find squatting on the kagi name to be something that requires explanation. There’s a lot of good faith built up over a lot of years , and spinning something new up under that name requires some explanation for me, anyway. There’s nothing in the FAQ about whether they’re tied to the old business that used to own that name. (I think it went out of business entirely, and doubt there’s much of a tie.) They should at least say what the connection is if any, even if it’s just “we liked the name and bought it when we got the chance.”

                                  If there’s really none, which is fine, I still think they should say that “we recognize that we’re pitching a browser to mac users who might recognize this name. We’re unaffiliated and hope you like it.” That would avoid the mis-impression, that I very much have at the moment, that they’re trying to trade on the goodwill established by an old well-known company.

                                  1. 4

                                    Orion founder here.

                                    “We liked the name and bought it when we got the chance.” is pretty much what happened. I wasn’t using Mac in ‘old Kagi’ days so was not aware of the name recognition among Mac users. Hopefully this explains it and we also added the same to F.A.Q.

                                    https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#oldkagi

                                    1. 1

                                      That works. Thanks for answering and for adding the mention to the FAQ.

                                  1. 2

                                    The project looks really nice, but whenever I look at trailer data I reach for pandas with the occasional plot, which suffices for my needs most of the time. While I like the idea of VisiData a lot, it’s value just doesn’t seem to justify learning how to use the software for me.

                                    1. 4

                                      I dunno, it’s pretty easy for basic use cases: arrow keys, Shift+F for freq table, ‘q’ to quit. Seems like it would be less effort to try it out than to post a comment about why it doesn’t seem worth it to try it out.

                                      1. 3

                                        I use VisiData to massage csv and excel files before importing them elsewhere. Best tool I found so far for this use case.

                                        1. 2

                                          Thank you for VisiData. I’ve only discovered it in the past 18 months, I’m certainly no expert user, and the 45 minutes I’ve spent squinting at youtube demos and cheatsheets has conservatively saved me 3 or 4 days worth of scripting against crappy CSVs and workbooks.

                                          Also, I feel like, lurking somewhere around the corner, I could integrate this with the django shell and similarly shorten my approach to getting data into a form I can help business people manipulate and use. I think I’m super close to finding that path but not there yet.

                                          1. 1

                                            This could be pretty easy, depending on how the django shell is designed. Ping me if you’d like to talk or try to bang through it some afternoon!

                                      1. 14

                                        Daily reminder that CDE was not actually that good and vendors adopting it were basically giving up on desktop. CDE+Motif is design by committee mediocrity, it’s like the DMV designed a desktop. Many actions are painfully obtuse under it - try adding a launcher in the big toolbar for instance. The only people who remember it fondly are people whose experience to it are limited to poking it for a few minutes or seeing it in magazines. It’s incredible how much microcomputer GUIs outclassed most workstations in terms of ease of use and quality of APIs.

                                        If you’re interested in “Unix workstation but they tried a little harder on UI”, Open Look and the IRIX desktop are far more interesting. Open Look in particular is very interesting because it’s a direct descendant and inheritor of the Xerox GUI legacy.

                                        1. 6

                                          Yep, and the author of this acknowledges that and describes some of the improvements that come from being built on FVWM.

                                          I’ve never used IRIX before, I do have some regrets about that.

                                          1. 4

                                            So… I used my share of HP/UX, Solaris, and AIX from ’93 - ‘03. A lot more than poking it for a few minutes. And I don’t recall seeing much of it in magazines of the era, which were predominantly focused on Mac and on NT. I remember the aesthetic fondly. Not the behavior.

                                            My fond recollections of the aesthetic were enough for me to create a new account on my workstation and install this. It’s faithfully reproducing the behavior as well as the aesthetic, and it seems worse now in contrast to some of the things that have come along since the early 90s. I’m super impressed by what this project did with the tools they chose, but after using it for about an hour, I was quite happy to log out and switch back to my usual qtile setup. This was cool and looks great and I’d be astonished if more than a dozen die-hards use it once they’ve posted their screenshots to /r/unixporn.

                                            1. 3

                                              CDE+Motif is design by committee mediocrity, it’s like the DMV designed a desktop.

                                              LOL! This is spot on. Motif looked… okay but working with it involved understanding so many obtuse design-by-commitee concepts.

                                              1. 3

                                                NextStep was, unsurprisingly, the class of the lot. System 7 was still a superior experience. The less said about the rest of them, the better.

                                                1. 1

                                                  Each to their own, I guess. I used CDE legitimately on Solaris desktops (we had Sun Rays in the UNIX group at the University) for probably a year. It was pretty good! It had virtual desktops, it was legible, the resource footprint was relatively modest, and it was quite snappy.

                                                  In the end the only thing that made me switch away was that I discovered I liked tiling window managers more, and I found dwm. If GUIs like Windows are your jam I expect dwm or i3 is even further away than CDE!

                                                  1. 2

                                                    t had virtual desktops, it was legible, the resource footprint was relatively modest, and it was quite snappy

                                                    No one in the 90s said this because at the time Motif was a bloated pig. Now it’s the lightweight alternative. How funny things change.

                                                    In the end the only thing that made me switch away was that I discovered I liked tiling window managers more, and I found dwm. If GUIs like Windows are your jam I expect dwm or i3 is even further away than CDE!

                                                    I think i3 is a good implementation of its concept primarily for the sane defaults. I enjoy non-Mac style interfaces (i.e. I respect Apollo’s that Plan 9 shamelessly ripped off, Interlisp, Genera, etc.), I just have it out for desktops that cost a lot of money for a worse experience (i.e. for years xterm and maybe Emacs with patches was as good as it got on X)

                                                    1. 1

                                                      I like i3 because it’s at least taking a different direction. I do think that it’s kind of amazing that, 20 years after Apple killed the Spatial Finder dead, Gnome/KDE/whatever are still trying to bring back that Windows 2000 magic. I have Thoughts about this that the margins of this post are too narrow to contain.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Gnome tried for a bit to bring back spatial finder, but the userbase screamed at them for years until they conceded and turned spatial mode off by default. KDE has always been more aping MS than Apple. Nowadays, they don’t even try for that classic Mac feel.

                                                  2. 1

                                                    The stock desktop at my first job was CDE, on top of a Red Hat Linux derivative called Linux Pro. I’d been using Slackware for several years and used FVWM95 on my personal desktop, so I dumped that standard install after about two weeks of fighting with CDE. Obtuse is a great description.

                                                    I do admit some nostalgia, though. CDE looked like it meant business.

                                                  1. 2

                                                    Hi there! I’m Aloke, an engineer at Warp. Happy to answer any questions.

                                                    One thing I wanted to clarify from the original blog post is that we do support custom fonts (any monospace system font) and themes (https://github.com/warpdotdev/themes for more information). We’re working hard on adding more customization pieces, including custom keybindings.

                                                    1. 3

                                                      Under what situations do you think it is reasonable to use a terminal emulator that is expressly allowed to connect to online things, collects telemetry, and doesn’t let you see the source? I enter sensitive stuff into my terminals all the time, and I can’t imagine a terminal that’s so good that I’d type my passwords into it but not be allowed to disable its telemetry or at least build that telemetry from source so I could be confident it’s not shipping my sensitive stuff off by accident.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Hi Aloke!

                                                        I didn’t see an add font option, only a list of monospaced fonts. Does it pull from Library/Fonts? I didn’t realize custom themes were supported based on the docs: https://docs.warp.dev/features/themes. Glad to hear it’s supported, but maybe consider throwing a link in the docs. Thanks for clarifying and I’ll add these details to the post.

                                                        1. 1

                                                          Great point about updating the docs! We’ll make sure to get that updated.

                                                          And we support any fonts that MacOs considers “installed” – essentially any font that appears in the “Font Book” app

                                                      1. 22

                                                        What a perfect name. I’m assuming the gag was intended :) “Aho” (or ahō) in slang Japanese means “idiot”, which is was “git” means in slang English.

                                                        1. 14

                                                          I sure hope Alfred Aho (the “A” in AWK) doesn’t know this…

                                                          1. 7

                                                            New site idea: enter a name, and it searches world dictionaries for derogatory meanings in various languages.

                                                            1. 3

                                                              I’m pretty sure he does.

                                                            2. 8

                                                              petition to reserve such a perfect name for a version written in true awk. this one should be called gaho.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                Funny coincidence! Also see Alfred Aho of the Aho-Corasick algorithm.

                                                                1. 3

                                                                  Aho is also the A in AWK.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    I figured, based on sibling comment.

                                                              1. 3

                                                                I’m the first to urge caution in upgrades, but without highlighting actual breaking changes this seems like fud.

                                                                1. 12

                                                                  Some of us hang out in forums where people literally start posting minutes after a Python release that they don’t understand why NumPy isn’t installing on the new version.

                                                                  Waiting at least a little bit for the ecosystem to catch up is sound advice.

                                                                  1. 10

                                                                    I don’t understand why you say that when the article was very clearly a meta-discussion of how to approach Python version upgrades. It is not asking users to hold off indefinitely, but instead is reacting to the availability and how that plays out with updates throughout the ecosystem.

                                                                    A “product manager” for Python could take a lot away from how clearly the pain points were laid out. As a platform, it’s advantageous for Python to tackle a lot of the issues pointed out, but it’s hard because of the number of stakeholders for things like packages. Getting a Docker image out more quickly seems like low-hanging fruit, but delaying a few days could perhaps be intentional.

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      For what it is worth, the Docker container, like many very popular containers on the official docker registry, are in fact owned and maintained by the Docker community themselves. I am unsure if it is really their duty to-do that.

                                                                      Many of the listed things in the article are indeed painful things to deal with, but some of them I’m not sure if the PSF is really the right entity to have had them fixed on launch day.

                                                                      edit: clarified that is the docker community that maintains it, not Docker the corporate entity.

                                                                      1. 2

                                                                        Also, as the author suggested it could be, it’s fixed already:

                                                                        Digest: sha256:05ff1b50a28aaf96f696a1e6cdc2ed2c53e1d03e3a87af402cab23905c8a2df0
                                                                        Status: Downloaded newer image for python:3.10
                                                                        Python 3.10.0 (default, Oct  5 2021, 23:39:58) [GCC 10.2.1 20210110] on linux
                                                                        Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
                                                                        >>> 
                                                                        

                                                                        They had to hit publish pretty quickly to release that complaint while it was still true.

                                                                    2. 3

                                                                      Some of concerns seem reasonable, for example the tooling catching up with the new pattern matching syntax blocks (match, case). If you use the popular Black code formatter, for example, it doesn’t yet handle pattern matching (and it looks like it’s going to be a bit of a job to update that).

                                                                    1. 13

                                                                      I need to learn to read the actual article before freaking out over the title.

                                                                      EDIT: @hwayne would recommend editing the title slightly to prevent misunderstandings, as apparently I’m not the only one. Maybe something like “Design with Judaism in mind”.

                                                                      1. 13

                                                                        EDIT: @hwayne would recommend editing the title slightly to prevent misunderstandings, as apparently I’m not the only one. Maybe something like “Design with Judaism in mind”.

                                                                        I think it’s a great title exactly because of this. Far too many people comment without actually reading the damn article. I’ve been (re)watching Babylon 5 and I’m reminded by this scene. “I always leave a little room for someone to disappoint me”.

                                                                        1. 12

                                                                          Obvious trolling is obvious, and frankly a pleasant surprise in the current climate. I appreciate it. Not jewish myself, but Grandma’s name was Solomon and I’ve got some uncles who look like cartoon propaganda art.

                                                                          1. 5

                                                                            I think that’s a better title. “Jewmain” is a novel coinage, and while it’s easy enough to figure out that this article is about Jews, it took me a second reading to realize the pun on “domain-driven”, which is a bit of a stretch.

                                                                            1. 2

                                                                              Yes I was confused at first sight as well, but reading the article brought up some points I didn’t know about, like with the oven or how in Israel, Passover is 7 days as opposed to 8. I guess it’s a good thought exercise in how you add logic to your programming to support cases like these.

                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                The oven isn’t the only appliance with Sabbath mode. I believe there are also elevators that stop at every floor so you don’t have to operate the elevator.

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  There’s a Sabbath elevator at Johns Hopkins. I would expect them in any major US city with a large Jewish population.

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    I’ve only ever seen them at Johns Hopkins hospital and in New York City personally. I’m sure there are more of them, but I’ve never seen one in Chicago, for instance. Nor in Atlanta. Nor in DC, Nor in Miami. Nor in Los Angeles. Nor in San Francisco. Nor in Boston. Nor in Minneapolis. Those are just the specific major US where I’ve spent more than a few weeks without observing one. What other locations do you see them in?

                                                                                    Also, is there any reason (other than familiarity) that you confined your expectation to US cities? I’ve never seen one in Paris or London, for instance, but I’d have had no specific reason to expect (or not expect) to.

                                                                                    1. 7

                                                                                      The number of Jews living in the US is vastly higher than abroad, by orders of magnitude. Accommodations I’m used to here are literally unheard of in Europe, even in the big cities. I’d guess that where @carlmjohnson was coming from.

                                                                                      Edit: and it hits me that things like the French concept of laïcité actively work to discourage accommodations.

                                                                                      1. 6

                                                                                        To buttress this point with some data, over half of all living Jews today live in America. Another 30% live in Israel. The next highest country by population, France, accounts for a mere 3% of the world’s Jewish population — where they make up 0.7% of the country’s population; less than half of their prevalence in America, which is 1.5%, and so not explainable simply by virtue of France being a smaller country than America.

                                                                                        And it’s even more concentrated than that data might appear to show: 1.5 million of America’s 7.6 million Jews live in the NYC metro area, which is greater than the Jewish population of Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, and D.C. combined. To put that in perspective, over 10% of all Jews alive today live specifically in the NYC metro area — and even in NYC they are nonetheless a small minority of city residents. There just aren’t that many Jews living in the world. Most places have almost none.

                                                                                        And not to put too fine a point on it, but that isn’t by accident. Europe, including France when it was under German occupation, genocided nearly all of its Jews: successfully murdering two out of every three European Jews, and most of the one-third remaining survivors fled to America, where they arrived at Ellis Island in the NYC area. The Middle East and North Africa unsuccessfully tried to do the same, albeit in a less organized fashion: those native Middle Eastern and North African Jews were largely saved by fleeing to Israel, where they make up 61% of the Israeli Jewish population, contrary to many Americans’ assumptions that Israeli Jews are mainly white descendants of Europeans.

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                                                                                          In my experience, synagogues in Europe always have guys with machine guns standing around out front. It is very different than the US.

                                                                                          I wouldn’t say though that the US as a whole has very high numbers of Jewish people. NYC specifically and then a few other Northeast cities do. Baltimore, for instance, has a large number of Orthodox Jews who caught measles pre-pandemic. I’m not as familiar with the rest of the country but I think there are a couple of enclaves in various cities throughout the midwest and whatnot.

                                                                                          An interesting comparison is the number of Native Americans, which IIRC is approximately same at a national level (around 1% of US population), but the distribution is completely different, so there are very few Native Americans in NYC, Baltimore, etc. and a lot in the West, Southwest, etc.

                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                          Oh, there’s at least one in LA (Cedars-Sinai). Placards on the door too.

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            Plenty of them in Toronto hospitals.

                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                              It makes perfect sense that they’d be more common at hospitals. I was scratching my head at how I’d not noticed them most places, even ones I’d visited quite a lot. Especially since it’s the kind of thing I find interesting and would take notice of.

                                                                                              I (thankfully!) rarely visit the hospital.

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                                                                                                You’ll only find Shabbat elevators in places Jews would conceivably be on Shabbat. So, no office buildings or the like; just apartments and doctors’ offices. (And a few other things I’m glossing for expediency.)

                                                                                                You’d also have to know to look for them. In one of my NYC apartments, a freight elevator was a Shabbos elevator, but, since tenants wouldn’t normally be using the freight elevator, most didn’t know about it.

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                                                                                                  Both my daughters were born at Mount Sinai, which, I guess it shouldn’t be remarkable lol

                                                                                          2. 1

                                                                                            Don’t forget the Sabbath light switch!

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                                                                                          I’m curious, what was your initial response?

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                                                                                            Mine was “Oh fsck me, how did antisemitism make it this high on Lobste.rs!”

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              That was also my instant reaction, which lasted until I noticed the author’s name in the URL.

                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                          Before I got to the part where you said

                                                                                          I’m guessing that many of you are really fucking uncomfortable with this. This is deeply-held beliefs of millions of people. Turning that into “a programming exercise” is a pretty egregious case of cultural appropriation.

                                                                                          my finger was twitching over the back button to make a comment expressing that very sentiment. And I say that as someone who deeply cherishes sacrilege. (I forget who said it, but I like the quip that the very best burgers are made from sacred cows.)

                                                                                          That acknowledgement in the piece flipped me, coupled with the fact that it really wasn’t making light of said deeply-held beliefs. Much. Even with that, the title still made it feel like a terribly risky click, though, and if you didn’t want it to feel that way it might be worth making that a subtitle and giving a tamer headline first billing.

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                                                                                            It doesn’t sound like they’ve fixed the complaints articulated here.

                                                                                            That’s enough to make me prefer other options when they’re available to me.

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                                                                                              No one likes breaking changes either. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

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                                                                                                Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

                                                                                                I agree. And to strain the reference: So dammit, I will use something else.

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                                                                                                  All JSON is valid YAML. Just use JSON.

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                                                                                                    They don’t really target similar uses though? I don’t love YAML, but JSON is not really meant for human authoring, especially when large or repetitive

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                                                                                                      TOML is really the best of both worlds IMO. Easy to read/write, hard to screw up.

                                                                                                      I’d also say that there’s really no human serialization language that handles repetition well. YAML has its anchors and stuff but that’s footgun city. HCL has for_each which is good but also has a steep learning curve. Writing real code and dumping to something else is my preferred method if HCL isn’t an option.

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                                                                                                        I don’t mind YAML anchors so much, but if I really want this kind of feature I’m reaching for Dhall for sure

                                                                                                      2. 2

                                                                                                        All JSON is also valid UCL as well. UCL actually supports all of the things I want from a human-friendly configuration language, such as well-defined semantics for loading multiple files with overrides (including deletion), so if you want to avoid complex parsing in your main application then you can have a stand-alone unprivileged process that parses UCL and generates JSON.

                                                                                                        Anything where I might want YAML, I’ve found either JSON or UCL a better choice. JSON is much simpler to parse and has good (small!) high-performance parsers, UCL is more human-friendly. YAML is somewhere between the two.

                                                                                                      3. 3

                                                                                                        One small nit: the YAML spec disallows tabs, while JSON allows them. In practice, I don’t know of any YAML parser implementations that will actually complain, though.

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                                                                                                          I haven’t used a YAML parser that allows tabs in YAML syntax, but appearing inside inline/json syntax they may be more lax

                                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                                          This is the only good thing about YAML

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                                                                                                      I agree with several of the issues pointed out on that page and it’s sibling pages, but some of the headache experienced is a direct result of libyaml(and thus pyyaml). It still doesn’t properly support YAML 1.2, which defines booleans as true/false. That is still a nasty thing though when wanting to use the literal word true or false, but at least it avoids the n,no,y,yes, and the various case differences. 1.2 only supports true, false.

                                                                                                      libyaml also doesn’t generate errors on duplicate keys, which is incredibly frustrating as well.

                                                                                                      The criticism of implicit typing, tagging, typing, flows, yaml -> language datatype, etc. are all spot on. They are prone to errors and in the latter case make it really easy to introduce security issues.

                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                        That is still a nasty thing though when wanting to use the literal word true or false, but at least it avoids the n,no,y,yes, and the various case differences. 1.2 only supports true, false.

                                                                                                        Are you sure? https://yaml.org/spec/1.2.2/#other-schemas seems to be saying that it’s fine to extend the rules for interpreting untagged nodes in arbitrary ways. That wouldn’t be part of the “core schema”, but then nothing in the spec says parsers have to implement the core schema.

                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                          Whoops. You are correct. The three described schemas are just recommendations. The lack of a required schema is frustrating.

                                                                                                          The described recommended schemas define booleans as true, false, which is a change from what versions less than 1.2 had.

                                                                                                          I’ll say that I personally get frustrated quickly with yaml.

                                                                                                      2. 3

                                                                                                        Any language that supports bare strings will have issues when you also have asciinumeric keywords.

                                                                                                        An issue? Sure, but more a tradeoff than anything else.

                                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                                          The problem with the bare string interpretation, as I see it, is not so much the fact that it exists. It’s that it’s not part of the spec proper, but a set of recommended additional tags. What do you think 2001:40:0:0:0:0:0:1 is? Not the number 5603385600000001? The YAML spec, to the extent it has an opinion, actually agrees, but many YAML parsers will interpret it as 5603385600000001 by default, because they implement the optional timestamp type.

                                                                                                          YAML 1.2 doesn’t recommend https://yaml.org/type/ any more, but it doesn’t disallow it, either. The best part of all this is that there are no strict rules about which types parsers should implement. If you use a bare string anywhere in a YAML document, even one that already has a well-understood meaning, the spec doesn’t guarantee that it will keep its meaning tomorrow.

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                                                                                                        I love this write-up… but I almost need to see it connect to something. I wonder just how absurdly hard it would be to get it to connect to this guy’s Bell-103 recording.

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                                                                                                          Bikeshedding about colors aside, I really like the look of the tags in dark mode. Nice job.

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                                                                                                            I’m not a big fan of pure black backgrounds, it feels a bit too « high contrast mode » instead of « dark mode ». I think a very dark gray would feel better to the eye. n=1 though, that’s just a personal feeling.

                                                                                                            Thanks for the theme, it’s still great!

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                                                                                                              Agreed, background-color: #222 is better than #000.

                                                                                                              1. 15

                                                                                                                I’ll just put my +1 here. The pure black background with white text isn’t much better than the opposite to me (bright room, regular old monitor). I’ve been using a userstyle called “Neo Dark Lobsters” that overall ain’t perfect, but is background: #222, and I’ll probably continue to use it.

                                                                                                                On my OLED phone, pure black probably looks great, but that’s the last place I’d use lobste.rs, personally.

                                                                                                                1. 18

                                                                                                                  Well, while we’re bikeshedding: I do like true black (especially because I have machines with OLED displays, but it’s also a nice non-decision, the best kind of design decision), but the white foreground here is a bit too intense for my taste. I’m no designer, but I think it’s pretty standard to use significantly lower contrast foregrounds for light on dark to reduce the intensity. It’s a bit too eye-burney otherwise.

                                                                                                                  1. 7

                                                                                                                    You have put your finger on something I’ve seen a few times in this thread: The contrast between the black background and the lightest body text is too high. Some users’ wishes to lighten the background are about that, and others’ are about making the site look like other dark mode windows which do not use pure black, and therefore look at home on the same screen at the same time. (Both are valid.)

                                                                                                                    1. 10

                                                                                                                      For me pure white and pure black is accessibility nightmare: that high contrast triggers my dyslexia and text starts to jump around, which starts inducing migraine.

                                                                                                                      As I default to dark themes systemwide and I couldn’t find way to override detected theme, this site is basically unusable for me right now. Usually in these cases I just close the tab and never come back, for this site I decided type this comment before doing that. Maybe some style change happens, manual override is implemented or maybe I care enough to setup user stylesheet.. but otherwise my visits will stop

                                                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                                                        No need to be so radical, you still have several options. Not sure what browser you’re using, but Stylus is available for Chrome/FF:

                                                                                                                        https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/styl-us/

                                                                                                                        It allows to override the stylesheet for any website with just a few clicks (and few CSS declarations ;))

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                                                                                                                          I don’t mind the comment. There’s a difference between being radical because of a preference and having an earnest need. Access shouldn’t require certain people to go out of their way on a per-website basis.

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                                                                                                                            It’s not radical, it’s an accessibility problem.

                                                                                                                    2. 8

                                                                                                                      That’s great, thank you.

                                                                                                                      I wonder if I am an outlier in using the site on my phone at night frequently. Alternatively, maybe we could keep the black background only for the mobile style, where it’s more common to have an OLED screen and no other light sources in your environment.

                                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                                        I don’t use my phone much, especially not for reading long-form content, so I wouldn’t be surprised if I was the outlier. That sounds like a reasonable solution, but it’s not going to affect me (since I can keep using a userstyle), so I won’t push either way. I will +1 the lower-contrast comments that others have posted, if it remains #000 though - the blue links are intense.

                                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                                          The blue link color brightness is a point that not many have made. I think the reason I didn’t expect it is that I usually use Night Shift on my devices, which makes blue light less harsh at night. Do you think we should aim to solve this problem regardless of whether users apply nighttime color adjustment? Another way to ask this question: What do you think about dark mode blue links in the daytime?

                                                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                                                            Sorry if I’m misunderstanding, but to clarify, my above comment is in a bright room; I try to avoid looking at screens in dim light/darkness. The blue links just look kind of dark, and intensely blue. Just a wee reduction in saturation or something makes it easier to read.

                                                                                                                            Thanks for your work on this btw. I looked into contributing something a while back, but was put off after it looked like the previous attempt stalled out from disagreement. I’d take this over the bright white any day (and it turns out this really is nice on my phone, dark blue links withstanding). The css variables also make it relatively easy for anyone here to make their own tweaks with a userstyle.

                                                                                                                            I feel like I’ve taken up enough space complaining here, so I’ll leave a couple nitpicks then take my leave: the author name colour is a little dark (similar to links, it’s dark blue on black), and the byline could do with a brightness bump to make it more readable, especially when next to bright white comment text.

                                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                                              I appreciate the clarification and other details :)

                                                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                                                          My laptop is OLED and I’d still appreciate #000 there

                                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                                            +1 to separate mobile style.

                                                                                                                        3. 4

                                                                                                                          I strongly agree.

                                                                                                                          I can’t put my finger on why, but I find very dark gray easier.

                                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                                            #222 is way better! thank you

                                                                                                                          2. 14

                                                                                                                            I strongly disagree, and this black background looks and feels great to me! No one can ever seem to agree on the exact shade or hue of grey in their dark themes, so if you have the general UI setting enabled, you end up with a mishmash of neutral, cooler, hotter, and brighter greys that don’t look cohesive at all. But black is always black!

                                                                                                                            For lower contrast, I have my text color set to #ccc in the themes I have written.

                                                                                                                            1. 6

                                                                                                                              Another user pointed out that pure black is pretty rare in practice, which makes this site stand out in an environment with other dark mode apps:

                                                                                                                              Here’s a desktop screenshot with lobste.rs visible - notice that it’s the only black background on the screen.

                                                                                                                              Does that affect your opinion like it did mine? I do see value in pure black, but suppose we treated the too-high-contrast complaint as a separate issue: Darkening the text could make the browser window seem too dim among the other apps.

                                                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                                                I prefer the black even in that scenario. The contrast makes it easier to read imo.

                                                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                                                  Not all. If it gets swapped out for grey I will simply go back to my custom css, which I have used to black out most of the sites I visit, so no hard feelings.

                                                                                                                              2. 8

                                                                                                                                Feedback is most welcome! Would you please include the type of screen you’re using (OLED phone, TFT laptop…) and the lighting environment you’re in (dark room, daytime indoors with a window, etc.)? And do you feel differently in different contexts?

                                                                                                                                I’ve got some comments about how I selected the colors in the PR, if that helps anyone think through what they would prefer.

                                                                                                                                1. 4

                                                                                                                                  Sure! I’m on my iPhone 12 so OLED phone. I tried in with dimmed lights and in the dark, but in both cases I think I’d prefer a lighter background color.

                                                                                                                                2. 7

                                                                                                                                  I disagree. Black is black. These off-gray variants just looks dirty and wrong to me.

                                                                                                                                  I love this theme.

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                                                                                                                                  Can I just ask why anyone in their right mind would be using a command line password vault on a multi-user system where the other users aren’t implicitly trusted anyway?

                                                                                                                                  I’m not suggesting that vendors should get carte blanche, but I also think this amounts to punishing a vendor for having taken the time and effort to make their amazing (in my opinion :) toolchain available for Linux.

                                                                                                                                  1. 9

                                                                                                                                    Maybe I’m just weird, but it really feels like the number of folks using Linux as their daily driver is vanishingly small, in relative terms, and the number of those folks who have multiple interactive users on a single machine is even more vanishingly small?

                                                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                                                      I figured the fact any “user” (as in user account) that can see the CLI args can be extended to any “program” bring able to see CLI args, including malware. But in that case the malware would be your more pressing concern.

                                                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                                                        Right, I mean, I’m not trying to minimize the problem, but maybe the framing of “any interactive user” carries less weight because to the first approximation there are no 1Password customers on machines with multiple interactive users.

                                                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                                                          Yes I think that’s fair enough.

                                                                                                                                    2. 4

                                                                                                                                      Truth to be told, 99% of macOS systems are not really multi-user. I work with the command line daily and I’m the only one who pops from my macbook pro to my iMac, which features two users: me and my wife (doesn’t know/care what the CLI is).

                                                                                                                                      The issue is real, but the impact is small(ish) IMO.

                                                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                                                        Your question was my first thought also.

                                                                                                                                        I stopped using 1Password because they kept pushing the subscription model harder and harder and their new stuff doesn’t let me bring my own sync. (I don’t care that much whether I buy a perpetual license or pay for a subscription… I’m keeping my password manager up-to-date anyway. But I want to keep my password database somewhere other than their servers, and they’ve been discontinuing the ability to do that as they move more users over to subscriptions.) That is what shoved me to BitWarden.

                                                                                                                                        I was happy except for that, and this issue would not have moved that needle for me. Using their password tools on a multiuser system feels like using ssh agent forwarding on such a system. If you don’t trust the other users, you’re gonna have a bad time.

                                                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                                                          I can totally appreciate that. I did in fact move to the hosted 1Password subscription service, but only because to be honest I purposefully maintain my personal computing life in such a way that it’s sufficiently ‘low stakes’ that even a full on vault compromise would be annoying at best and in no way catastrophic.

                                                                                                                                          That said I COMPLETELY understand why someone might not be comfortable with that, or the new subscription model. I’m actually pretty happy with it because we use the ‘family’ sub and my wife and I can share passwords and the like with a single click.

                                                                                                                                        2. 2

                                                                                                                                          IMHO the biggest and most important problem, even more important than the potential leakage of secrets (which, at the end of the day, is deemed acceptable or not in terms of a threat model, not in absolute terms) is that this isn’t more prominently documented. It’s an unusual choice (most CLI utils don’t use this method for passing secrets) so a lot of users probably don’t even spend much time thinking about its consequences, as they never had to do it before.

                                                                                                                                          Other than that, I think it’s simply a problem of unnecessarily introducing yet another leakage mechanism (well, several, actually), even among applications running on machines that are effectively single-user. While there are certainly bigger fish to fry, even moderately smart malware can get along just fine on nothing but smelt.

                                                                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                                                                          gradle is a fine build tool that can do everything you want. I find this hand-wavy “oh its magic” talk off-putting. You have to learn the isms of every tool, yet when you roll your own you are going to create an even bigger mess than any other build tool

                                                                                                                                          1. 5

                                                                                                                                            I had an easier time getting cmake to handle my java things than getting gradle to handle my c++ things. I suspect that for different projects that could break very much the other way.

                                                                                                                                            1. 4

                                                                                                                                              gradle is a fine build tool that can do everything you want. I find this hand-wavy “oh its magic” talk off-putting.

                                                                                                                                              Gradle feel very “magic” to many me and I expect to many other people. Therefore, using something else that you build yourself is already less magic from one’s point of view.

                                                                                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                                                                                I maintain a handful of Gradle plugins. It isn’t magic, but it is complex. Half its API is deprecated, the other half is unstable.

                                                                                                                                                Here’s an easy one: what is the stable way to change the Java language target from version 8 (the default) to version 11 (the late LTS)?

                                                                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                                                                  I maintain a handful of Gradle plugins. It isn’t magic, but it is complex. Half its API is deprecated, the other half is unstable.

                                                                                                                                                  I have been using it since 2013 and I have contributed patches to plugins and def. don’t want to go back to maven. (I had to for a job in between then and now, but please never again). It may indeed be fast moving, yet still better than hand-rolling something.

                                                                                                                                                  Here’s an easy one: what is the stable way to change the Java language target from version 8 (the default) to version 11 (the late LTS)?

                                                                                                                                                  Toolchains https://docs.gradle.org/current/userguide/toolchains.html

                                                                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                                                                    def. don’t want to go back to maven.

                                                                                                                                                    agreed.

                                                                                                                                                    It may indeed be fast moving, yet still better than hand-rolling something.

                                                                                                                                                    Gradle is an equal but different bad to Bazel. I agree, both are better than hand-rolled for a non-trivial project.

                                                                                                                                                    Here’s an easy one: what is the stable way to change the Java language target from version 8 (the default) to version 11 (the late LTS)?

                                                                                                                                                    Toolchains https://docs.gradle.org/current/userguide/toolchains.html

                                                                                                                                                    Not really: https://docs.gradle.org/current/userguide/building_java_projects.html#sec:java_cross_compilation

                                                                                                                                                    And even those docs aren’t the whole story. 😪