1. 2

    I use a custom Docker setup and recommend that approach.

    1. 2

      …or just ip rule add ... and get multihoming/resilence/load-balancing for free.

      Networking HOWTO documentation from 2002 tends to beat the devops view of ‘current best practice’ in 2018’. It also makes great place to start learning about tooling and concepts that have been around for decades.

      1. 1

        Cool! Thanks for that link! I thought that there might be a route-based way to do this but I’m not familiar enough with that to know how to do it.

        One question I have for example, even after looking at this, is how do you use an ip route based approach if you want to send all traffic coming from a range of local IPs through a specific gateway? E.g. If you’re setup Docker to create a bridged network like 172.33.0.0/16, and you want any containers in that range to go through the specific gateway?

        1. 3

          If you look at the ip rule ... manpage it mentions PREFIX so you can just use a IP literal (192.0.2.1) or describe a whole network (192.0.2.0/24); though in fairness it does not spell out that ‘PREFIX=CIDR’.

          So back to the HOWTO tutorial, you amend it instead to read:

          ip rule add from 172.33.0.0/16 table John
          
          1. 1

            Thank you for these resources! I have so much to learn. I appreciate your willingness to help out a sysadmin newb. :)

      1. 7

        Are FreeBSD jails remotely as usable as Docker for Linux? Last time I checked they seemed rather unusable.

        1. 3

          In technical terms they’re just fine, in my semi-professional experience. What they lack is the ergonomics of Docker.

          1. 5

            I’m not very impressed with the ergonomics of docker, and it’s definitely not obvious to me that BSD jails are an inferior solution to it.

            1. 5

              Ok, so I’m a big fan of BSDs, so I’d be very interested if there’d be a nice (not necessarily identical, but similar) way to do the roughly the following things with jails:

              vi Dockerfile # implement your container based on another containers
              docker build . # build it
              docker push https://<internal_storage>/money-maker:0.9 # push it to internal repo
              ssh test_machine
              docker run https://<internal_storage_server>/money-maker:0.9 # run the container on the test machine
              
              1. 5

                The obvious equivalent I can think of is:

                • Create a jail
                • Set it up (whether manually or via a Dockerfile-equivalant shell script)
                • Store a tar of its filesystem to https://<internal_storage>/money-maker:0.9
                • Create a jail on the destination machine
                • Untar the stored filesystem
                • Start the jail

                These steps aren’t integrated nicely the way they are with docker, but they are made of small, otherwise-useful parts which compose easily.

                1. 4

                  Sure. How much work do you think needs to be done to get the benefits of Docker’s layer-based approach to containers? If your containers are based on each other, you get significant space savings that way.

                  1. 0

                    ZFS deduplicates stored blocks, so you would still get the space savings. You would still have to get it over the network, though.

                    1. 6

                      ZFS does not dedup by default, and deduping requires a lot of ram to the point that I’d not turn it on for performance reasons. I tried a 20TiB pool with/without, the speed was about 300k/s versus something closer to the underlying ssd’s performance. It was that bad, even after trying to tune the piss out of it.

                      Hardlinks would be faster at that point.

                      1. 3

                        No no no, ZFS dedup wastes some ridiculous amount of RAM. Do you use it IRL or are you just quoting a feature list?

                        1. 1

                          I use it, bit not on anything big, just my home BAS.

                  2. 2

                    One option is to use a jail-management system built on top of the raw OS functionality. They tend to take an opinionated approach to how management/launching/etc. should work, and enforce a more fleshed-out container model. As a result they’re more ergonomic if what you want to do fits with their opinions. CBSD is probably the most full-featured one, and is actively maintained, but there are a bunch of others too. Some of them (like CBSD) do additional things like providing a unified interface for launching a container as either a jail or a bhyve VM.

              1. 2

                Very troubling that a chat app that Edward Snowden said he used was proven to be flawed in this way.

                1. 18

                  The article said it wasn’t clear if the Snowden quote was real. I would be surprised. Snowden has endorsed Signal, I don’t remember him endorsing this.

                  1. 4

                    You’re absolutely right, on a second read it’s clear that Ars Technica’s claim is that the company selling IronChat was the ones who said Snowden used their product, and that Ars Technica couldn’t verify the authenticity of that claim. I jumped the gun on reading the first paragraph.

                1. 7

                  How has this remained a secret for so long?

                  1. 2

                    It might be new. It’s showing on my phone but other android users are saying it isn’t there

                    1. 5

                      The codepoints have been around since at least 2016: https://twitter.com/unicode/status/722133439726505984

                    2. 2

                      my Android phone doesn’t seem to support them out of the box

                      1. 1

                        Meh. There are an awful lot of code points, and not so many native speakers of hieroglyphs. If you go through the spec you’ll see all sorts of stuff.

                        The question in my mind is why this post has so many upvotes.

                        1. 2

                          The question in my mind is why this post has so many upvotes.

                          Because boys will be boys.

                      1. 2

                        Reposting my comment because moderator @alynpost deleted it for no discernible reason, accusing me of “irony” (?) when my question wasn’t trying to be ironic or anything but an honest question. (cc @pushcx, can you talk to him?)

                        This is so cool! It wasn’t clear to me from the post whether it does turn-by-turn navigation. Does it support that, or are there plans for that (e.g. via A-star pathfinding)?

                        1. 4

                          Routing in open street map is done with OSRM. From the GitHub project linked in this article there is a link to the blog post with a routing screenshot. OSM has several routing systems available, including some that use A* routing.

                          1. 1

                            Thanks! That clears up some of my confusion. It sounds like it doesn’t do turn-by-turn directions, but it does show you the route on the map as you move along it, so that answers my question, thanks!

                            1. 1

                              As best as I can tell it doesn’t provide turn-by-turn directions–the only turn-by-turn support I can find is on the proprietary side of the stack. @xkomczax can you fill us in on the state of turn-by-turn directions in OSM?

                              1. 6

                                Valhalla (https://github.com/valhalla/valhalla) provides high-quality turn-by-turn, routing, map-matching, and other related functionality based on OSM.

                          2. 0

                            From our conversations today I know you to be quite intelligent. You do not have to pretend to be stupid, it doesn’t suit you: you are possessed of more information than you are letting on here. All of the evidence I have in the full context of our interactions suggested to me you were not being sincere. If your comment here was honest then I have erred. I’m not yet convinced that I have.

                            1. 1

                              I did not look deeply beyond the blog post. This phrase didn’t mean anything to me because I’m unfamiliar with the tech: “OSRM was selected as a backend for routing and the selected route was again displayed on the map.”

                              But I see based on your other response that that’s the answer I was looking for, so thanks again!

                          1. 5

                            I’ve been trying to get a patchfix into OpenBSD with no luck. No response to my patch on tech@openbsd.org. This isn’t the first time. Can any OpenBSD contributor help me out?

                            1. 7

                              If you didn’t get any feedback, just keep asking the list for feedback every two weeks by replying to your own post. There’s a bit of luck to it because each patch has to catch someone’s interest in a moment when they have time to deal with it.

                              1. 4

                                Cool I can do that, thanks for the tip.

                                1. -1

                                  just keep asking the list for feedback every two weeks by replying to your own post.

                                  What a ridiculous response. Not even an apology. That’s no way to run a welcoming community or encourage people to contribute.

                                  1. 9

                                    Nothing to apologize for - what did you expect? Sending reminders is a common idiom on tech@ where a mail gets drown easily by other threads.

                                    Making sure your submissions are well tested and reasoned helps getting a response, but you cannot demand anything.

                                    1. 1

                                      what did you expect?

                                      Maybe this is how OpenBSD runs things, if that’s the culture there, that’s fine, but don’t expect it to attract very many contributors.

                                      1. 5

                                        It does attract contributors. In fact, this culture is one of the reasons joined the project.

                                        So I eventually started reviewing the diff but failed to do so because it was both malformed (did not apply) and broken (did not compile). That is, instead of focusing on the intented changes, reviewers get thrown back because they did not test it. Note how I explicitly mentioned this in my previous reply.

                                        Edit: I mixed you up with the OP/diff author, text adjusted.

                                        1. 4

                                          Thank you for the review kn, very much appreciated. I hastily reposted an old version of the patch. I’ll make sure the diff applies cleanly in my reply and fix up the SIGCHLD typo.

                                        2. 6

                                          Maybe this is how OpenBSD runs things, if that’s the culture there, that’s fine, but don’t expect it to attract very many contributors.

                                          Ah but whose job is it to reply to every mail? Whose job is it to apologize if whoever had the first job failed to deliver? What is this sentient entity called OpenBSD that supposedly runs things? Does it have the power to appoint an individual for such a role?

                                          1. -2

                                            What is this sentient entity called OpenBSD that supposedly runs things?

                                            It’s called the OpenBSD Foundation. You can read about it on its website. This year, it has about half a million to spend on answering your other questions.

                                            1. 8

                                              You gotta be joking. They provide funding for the project. They don’t run the project.

                                              1. 0

                                                I assumed that in order to provide funding for a project you need to decide what to fund and what not to fund, and that sort of decision-making is called “running the project”, but I guess I was mistaken, my bad.

                                                1. 7

                                                  I just decided to fund you as my personal assistant. Your salary is $20 a month, you work 24/7, aren’t you so glad that I run you now? Hand over the keys to your house by the way, because with this decision, I run it…

                                                  Actually the OpenBSD Foundation isn’t the OpenBSD Project. The OpenBSD Foundation doesn’t own OpenBSD, and there are things it cannot do because it does not own OpenBSD. It can’t hand out commit bits, it can’t change the website, it can’t turn people into mailing list admins.. it does not run OpenBSD. If someone or something really “runs” OpenBSD, I’d say it’s Theo… and no, Theo doesn’t run the Foundation. The Foundation doesn’t run Theo either. The Foundation doesn’t decide what Theo or the individual developers (volunteers mainly!) of the project do, though they can choose to support whatever it is by providing funding.

                                                  1. -1

                                                    What is this sentient entity called OpenBSD that supposedly runs things?

                                                    If someone or something really “runs” OpenBSD, I’d say it’s Theo

                                                    1. 5

                                                      Which leads to the follow up question.. you want him to force the volunteers to reply to every mail and apologize for every mail that wasn’t responded to? Or you want him to employ people for that purpose? Out of his own pocket?

                                                      Sorry, I just don’t see the issue of some messages directed at a volunteer-driven software group going unresponded to because the volunteers happened to be volunteering their time for something else at the time (or whatever the reason).

                                                      If people are so entitled to responses, I no longer wonder why some people get burned out on OSS development. I wouldn’t, at least not for that reason, because I have no trouble ignoring issues I don’t have time for. It is my own time.

                                                      IMHO kn is right, there is nothing to apologize for.

                                                      1. 0

                                                        I’ve seen small businesses provide better support to their users and developers on far less budget than OpenBSD has.

                                                        For the past 5 or so years they’ve received hundreds of thousands of dollars each year, and each year they had a surplus averaging ~$100k that they didn’t seem to use for anything.

                                                        Are you telling me they can’t afford to pay someone to say, “we’re looking into this”, or “we’re sorry the patch didn’t compile”, or even setup an automated patch submission system? Because if you are, according to their public finances page, that would be a lie.

                                                        1. 3

                                                          The OpenBSD Project isn’t a business. I think you’re just trolling here and it’s dumb.

                                                          1. -1

                                                            I’m not trolling, and I’m done with this conversation because it’s clear it’s going nowhere fast.

                                                            EDIT: and to be clear, from the OSS projects I’ve seen — even those that do not have a half-million dollar budget and a foundation — still somehow manage to reply to developers who’ve put in the time and effort into submitting a pull request. They also have pull requests. And automated build systems. And aren’t stuck in 1990 with their version control system.

                                                            1. 6

                                                              You are generalizing from one example and you don’t know our comunity well enough to judge it.

                                                              During almost 10 years now I have committed many patches from other contributors and never had my own patches go ignored, which is why I stuck around in OpenBSD in the first place.

                                                              1. 0

                                                                You are generalizing from one example and you don’t know our comunity well enough to judge it.

                                                                And how do you know how well I know the OpenBSD community? You have no clue.

                                                                Over on Mastodon I pointed out that OpenBSD “perpetuates false and negative stereotypes that security people don’t care about usability, or that security must come at a cost of usability”.

                                                                That’s a fact. And then OpenBSD developer @mulander jumped in to call me a troll, and on top of it, demand that I work for free to submit patches to the project. So I pointed out to him how the OpenBSD community treats those who work for free and submit patches.

                                                                I’ve observed this project for many years, and I think it gets a bit too much hype on Lobsters lately for delivering a terrible user experience. Sure, there are lots of things to praise about it, but I don’t see anyone criticizing it for its glaringly obvious faults, so the end result is a community that is delusional, and a harmful role model.

                                                                1. 4

                                                                  Link the thread so people can judge by themselves.

                                                                  Also link yourself trying to spin the thing around on Mastodon and on twitter.

                                                                  1. 0

                                                                    I did, see my reply below from before your comment. But sure I should have linked it here as well.

                                                                  2. 1

                                                                    Your opinions are not facts. I don’t think the “community” is what’s delusional here.

                                                                    1. -1

                                                                      It’s not an opinion, it’s a fact, and one OpenBSD fanbois don’t dispute.

                                                                2. 1

                                                                  Great. I hope you feel better now that you’ve got this all out of your system.

                                          2. 4

                                            There is nothing to apologize for. It is a volunteer project. Developers are people who live lives, not borg drones assimilating other people’s patches.

                                            1. 4

                                              All of your comments in this thread of inappropriate. They are inappropriate regardless of whether other folk’s comments are or are not appropriate and regardless of whether they do or do not contain true statements.

                                              Please drop the issue, do not bring it back up, and do not engage in this style of discussion again on lobste.rs.

                                          3. 3

                                            What stsp said, but also, can you link us to the thread?

                                              1. 2

                                                I just get

                                                I expected an e-mail address, but none was defined.

                                                1. 2

                                                  Sorry I’m not entirely sure what the best way is to post a link to a thread on the OpenBSD listserv. If you log in you should be able to see the thread.

                                                  EDIT: use this http://openbsd-archive.7691.n7.nabble.com/lib-libfuse-Handle-signals-that-get-sent-to-any-thread-tp352472p353099.html

                                                  1. 2

                                                    marc.info works pretty well. I’d say it’s the preferred interface for most people.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      thanks for the pointer

                                            1. 2

                                              Not a contributor, but I figure it might help to point out what patch you sent.

                                            1. 1

                                              This was a bit too long and outside of my technical area of expertise to read fully, so forgive me, but could you answer a simple question: does this software also replicate the “feature” of X server where any app can listen to keystrokes of other apps?

                                              1. 2

                                                The input model requires the WM to ‘“route” all inputs, an app doesn’t “grab” input like in X so a client receives no input unless the WM specify exactly which ones.

                                                1. 1

                                                  I’m sorry I don’t understand your answer. Can you give a yes or no answer to this:

                                                  does this software also replicate the “feature” of X server where any app can listen to keystrokes of other apps?

                                                  1. 1

                                                    That’s a no. To any app. You can chose to give some apps that capability.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      When you say “you can choose”, who is the “you” of that sentence? The developer? Or the user? And how does it work in practice?

                                                      1. 1

                                                        both (assuming some amount of code literacy), but part of the point is making WM modifications “bash-scripting” levels of difficulty, not the crazy stuff needed for Xorg or WL. Take this example of a minimal wm”:

                                                        local clients = {}
                                                        
                                                        function mywm()
                                                            local alloc_fn;
                                                            alloc_fn = function()
                                                                target_alloc("mywm",
                                                                function(source, status)
                                                                    if status.kind == "resized" then
                                                                        resize_image(source, status.width, status.height)
                                                                        show_image(source)
                                                                    elseif status.kind == "terminated" then
                                                                         clients[source] = nil
                                                                    elseif status.kind == "connected" then
                                                                         clients[source] = true
                                                                         alloc_fn()
                                                                    end
                                                                end
                                                            )
                                                            end
                                                            alloc_fn()
                                                        end
                                                        
                                                        function mywm_input(iotbl)
                                                            for vid,_ in pairs(clients) do
                                                                target_input(vid, iotbl)
                                                            end
                                                        end
                                                        

                                                        I havn’t tested this exact code but it is about what is required for a ‘dumb’ WM where clients can connect like ARCAN_CONNPATH=“mywm” afsrv_terminal; (included terminal emulator).

                                                        Notice the way the mywm_input function is written now. Every time the engine manages to get input from any input device (keyboard, mouse, game, …) all clients can read it. If you change it to track say a “selected” window and only send to that, well, only that client will get the input.

                                                        1. 1

                                                          So… you’re saying that it depends on the window manager? Some might allow keyloggers and others might not?

                                                          If my window manager has code to prevent key loggers, can another app I run still get access to the keys using your APIs?

                                              1. 3

                                                Operating systems should do this sort of crap automatically without forcing sysadmins to deal with it.

                                                1. -2

                                                  As a result, there’s no need for Proof-of-Work consensus, which means that Dat and P2P aren’t inherently wasteful.

                                                  As great as the work that Paul does is, it’s really hard for me to sometimes take him seriously when he writes stuff like this. I really do not understand why he needs to do that. It’s not true, and it only detracts from his message.

                                                  1. 8

                                                    What part of that is untrue, and how? Dat is not based on any expensive operation, and proof of work is wasteful.

                                                    1. -2

                                                      The part about proof-of-work being wasteful is untrue. Something is only wasteful when it’s brought in comparison to something else that is less wasteful. If you consider proof-of-work to be wasteful, you’ll have to point to a more efficient system that accomplishes what Bitcoin does. I know of no such system.

                                                      1. 4

                                                        If you consider proof-of-work to be wasteful, you’ll have to point to a more efficient system that accomplishes what Bitcoin does. I know of no such system.

                                                        How about solving any other problem than reverse-hashing? There is absolutely no utility in finding a hash starting with n “0”‘s. Sure, it would be more complicated, maybe not as elegant on first glance, but I don’t see why it shouldn’t be possible.

                                                        1. 0

                                                          Do you think you’re the first person to ask that question?

                                                          I would answer your question but there’s little point. I’ll just get downvoted for sharing what I’ve learned over the years with you. So figure it out yourself.

                                                          1. 0

                                                            I don’t understand why you assume that I think I’m the first person to think of this. All I know is that it’s not commonly discussed, for some reason. And secondly, why care so much about imaginary Internet points – that’s really not something that should influence what you say or don’t say. Other than that, my profile has a link to my contact page, so I’d be trilled if you could tell me more about what you know.

                                                        2. 2

                                                          I assume you mean reaching consensus on a global scale without having to trust a central authority?

                                                          1. 4

                                                            *without having to trust more than 1) the leaders of the largest hashpools 2) the developers of the system.

                                                            1. 0

                                                              Such a system as the one you described does not exist, and in Bitcoin trust for all of the above is minimized across all of those entities (in other words, it’s spread out, not concentrated in any one of them).

                                                          2. -4

                                                            ok

                                                            you’ll come around eventually, i trust.

                                                            1. 4

                                                              I (strongly) disagree with itistoday on this topic, but there is zero place here for your behavior.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                Why is it acceptable to just walk in, say something facile and dubious, then back that up with an ungrounded statement of opinion? My counter-argument was appropriately rigorous, not to mention hopefully optimistic for the future of their character and wisdom.

                                                                1. 4

                                                                  He’s wrong (imo) that distributed trust is a particularly important outcome.

                                                                  From that (imo incorrect) base, he’s got a perfectly good argument. There isn’t really a better way to do it yet.

                                                                  Rather than making a serious attempt to understand him, you’ve resorted to condescension. Put a bit more effort in.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    In isolation, that’s totally fair.

                                                                    In the context of bitcoin-worshipping ancaps, it gets a little tedious. He also took it as self-evident that whatever it was about Bitcoin he meant was understood, after the condescending, “marginal efficiency is relative,” line, after which he* probably had to wipe his monitor clean of spittle because his internal monologue came roaring out via unconscious and unintelligible lateral lisp.

                                                                    So why does he deserve the respect, time, and effort?

                                                                    *) given a “he” pronoun because, come on.

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      He doesn’t deserve your time and effort - you didn’t have to respond.

                                                                      You chose to spend your time and effort on an answer, but not your respect. That’s what has no place here.

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        A point well made, that I concede.

                                                        3. 4

                                                          As someone who wrote both a P2P system and a cryptocurrency, I would say that P2P and PoW are orthogonal to each other. You can imagine a centralized system which accepts data which has a PoW, and you can imagine a P2P system that synchronizes data without PoW. Where he is wrong is comparing them as though they solve the same problems.

                                                          The consensus algorithm in what people call PoW cryptocurrencies isn’t the PoW, but the idea that the longest chain wins. PoW just slows the process down so that block generation happens at a specific fixed interval (10 minutes for bitcoin for example) on average. PoW is about making the blockchain a decentralized clock. This is why Satoshi Nakamoto in the original bitcoin whitepaper called it a timestamp server (a clock). One way to make a decentralized clock in a P2P system without PoW is to use vector clocks, which have their own problems and costs.

                                                          1. 6

                                                            Looks like a Framasoft ad for me, as they recommend their own services in place of Google ones :D

                                                            1. 4

                                                              Framasoft hosts open-source software, so if you want to self host any of it you can. (Scroll down on that page for links to the self hostable versions.)

                                                              1. 2

                                                                But hey, isn’t the attitude like “Google is centralizing and monopolizing the internet, look for independent alternatives! So, replace Google Suite (sheets, docs, slides and so on) by Framasoft Suite right now!” looking quite suspicious for you? :>

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  by Framasoft Stuide right now

                                                                  No, because they don’t seem to charge for what looks to be a digital community service, and every service “they provide”, is something you can self-host as well. They even offer instructions, albeit in French.

                                                              2. 4

                                                                I understand the point, but usually Ads don’t take the form of saying “use our product or this alternative we also think is good!”.

                                                              1. 16

                                                                The inconvenience is not a bug, it’s a feature. Collapsing isn’t so much to spare delicate sensibilities, it’s to be instantly clear to the poster and visitors that these comments are unrepresentative of Lobsters. Only 104 out of the site’s 146,068 comments have hit -5 to default to being collapsed. I’m looking to add, not remove, features that emphasize to these rare posters just how far outside of normal, appropriate community behavior these few comments are.

                                                                1. 3

                                                                  While I agree with the value of not giving bad comments prominence, I think it’s unfortunate that many replies to downvoted comments are good comments, highlighting the values this community approves of. It’s not insult-counterinsult, it’s reasoned responses that take the original comment’s arguments in good faith and engage with them.

                                                                  I just think it’s unfortunate that the good will be hidden with the bad.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    Could you please explain then, what it is about this comment that is so “far outside of normal, appropriate community behavior”?

                                                                    How these emacs.d distributions are “valuable” in any way? If you want to type text and don’t care at all, just get notepad.exe, VS Code, Sublime Text or another silly tool that kids use these days. The thing about Emacs is to just start with bare bones and add features and improvements to your .emacs only if you need to, instead of reusing other people’s configuration which you won’t read or even understand, as it’s mostly overcomplicated to cover extensive cases for many users at once.

                                                                    And what is the reason for preventing links from working to this reply?

                                                                    1. 6

                                                                      It’s the complete dismissal of a lot of people’s work and favorite tools. Really just the second sentence and “which you won’t read or even understand”. It’s not the technical opinion that these tools are overbuilt or inferior, it’s expressing that opinion as an insult to everyone who uses different tools than the author. If he’d said that he doesn’t see a use for these tools, that he has a much better approach, that there are tradeoffs he thinks people missed or misread, great, it sounds like someone with a considered opinion who wants to discuss these choices. When someone’s convinced they’re right and that people who choose differently did so because they’re incapable of understanding, there’s not much hope for an informative discussion.

                                                                      The fundamental issue is not extending charity to recognize that other people’s opinions can have merit or criticizing effectively* to narrow, explore, and maybe resolve the disagreement. And this applies even if the poster is 100% right in every opinion! If it was enough to be right, they could be right alone in their head or in their projects; we collaborate in a community to ask questions, or get answer didn’t know to ask for, or share what we know. It’s bad, counter-productive writing that hurts a community in much the same way as a pile of spaghetti code with a bunch of global variables that sorta works is counter-productive and hurts the overall system.

                                                                      Sometimes these comments get responses that are better than them, that ignore the outrageous rhetoric to talk about the fundamental issues in a collaborative way. This one you linked is a great example and I don’t have a good answer for your question. I’ve seen forums that replace deleted comments with a moderator note summarizing them or explaining why they were deleted; it’d mean significantly more deleted comments and mod work so I’m reluctant to adopt it. I’ve also seen forums that allow mods to reparent comments to top-level threads, but that can be really confusion to read. Turning off replies to collapsed comments would have much the same effect, but feels like it would entirely close the door on the better replies. None of these feel like a great solution, like a measured nudge towards community norms that doesn’t reward bad comments with more attention. I’m open to suggestions, and maybe drop in the chat where ideas for these sorts of things get kicked around fairly regularly.

                                                                      • I think this four-point framework is very useful but overkill for small disagreements; it’s generally enough to nod in the direction of that level of understanding until you suspect you’re talking past each other, it’s about a very contentious or sensitive topic, or there’s otherwise a reason to proceed more deliberately.
                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        Well, that’s all well and your opinion, and I see no good reason to collapse that comment.

                                                                        As I didn’t see an answer, I ask again:

                                                                        And what is the reason for preventing links from working to this reply?

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          It’s because it would require some javascript and lobste.rs doesn’t serve javascript (at least to logged out users). In principle it could work for logged in users but someone would need to do the work to add that to the codebase.

                                                                      2. 4

                                                                        “Could you please explain then, what it is about this comment”

                                                                        It was a dismissive type of comment that didn’t look for any value people might have gotten out of the distributions. Then, it had an insult built into it as @steveno highlighted in his reply. Most comments here are disagreements with more technical detail and few insults. That is outside of the baseline even for highly-subjective topics like this.

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                                                                      How do you prevent your server from being overfilled with data?

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                                                                        How most IPFS gateways work is they have a list of content pinned that will be always stored on on the server and anything else is kept until the hdd gets full and then it will be deleted.

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                                                                          There’s a quota.

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                                                                          How do you prevent your site/gateway from serving files you don’t want it to serve?

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                                                                            Because IPFS is content-addressable, illegal and/or otherwise undesirable content can be blocked by hash - after all, that’s all there is to go by!

                                                                            Public lists of such hashes exist for illegal content, and can be automatically applied. Merely copyright-infringing content is not an issue, at least in the U.S., due to OCILLA.

                                                                            In Europe, the situation has recently become problematic, but the nature of a decentralized system is such that it very rapidly becomes very hard to meaningfully prosecute people for being part of the network just because the network is used to distribute illegal content. Tor is a good example of this.

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                                                                              Doesn’t the list of hashes fall under the same copyright restriction as the content it points too though?

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                                                                                No, a hash does not represent the full information content of the data it identifies. One would have to perform additional steps to acquire the content itself (ask the network for it).

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                                                                                  Linking them on your website probably would be otherwise torrent websites would be perfectly legal but storing them to use as a block list wouldn’t be. Most large web companies have large collections of illegal content stored so it can be automatically removed and reported.

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                                                                                It would be like a specific ntp server going offline. Nobody knows what relies on it, but that thing is now broken.

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                                                                                  The problem is not servers hosting hashes, it’s anyone who has a problem with that.

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                                                                                    Making it easier to get illegally distributed content is generally considered bad.

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                                                                                      Restricting art and research to only those who can afford to pay for it is generally considered bad.

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                                                                                        It depends on if your income depends on people paying for that art and research.

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                                                                                Can we not post scuttlebutt on twitter from a thread in the dedicated SomethingAwful technology shitposting forum?

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                                                                                  how many comments of yours do you think are policing what people post here? 10%, 20%? Before you respond with something along the lines of “eternal september” or “hacker news” just know I’ve lurked at HN for almost as long as its been around and I had a computer in the late 80s.

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                                                                                    It is kind of a garbage source. friendlysock is doing people a favor by pointing that out, and I wish I’d read his comment before I read the thread.

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                                                                                      If you have any evidence that any of these claims are untrue (a rebuttal from Musk, Tesla, etc.), please share it with us.

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                                                                                        Legal systems generally (not the French) go with innocent until proven guilty for a reason. CEOs would not have a lot of time in the day if they had to personally prove every accusation made against them or their company.

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                                                                                          CEOs would not have a lot of time in the day…

                                                                                          Funny, he seems to have time to respond to random twitter accounts all day.

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                                                                                            Obviously means regular boring old CEOs, not the visionary ones aimed at Mars…

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                                                                                            Taking your jab at French jurisprudence seriously, what do you mean by that? Is this some recent court case?

                                                                                            Because France basically invented the modern Continental legal framework (well, Napoleon overhauled the ancient Roman system) which is used all over Europe (and beyond!) today.

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                                                                                              Sure, it is a well known fact that France is the European Guantanamo. 😏

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                                                                                              I don’t think Tesla as a corporate entity or Musk as a private individual / CEO will dignify this source with any sort of acknowledgement. That’s a PR no-no.

                                                                                              However, if a personal actually trained in ferreting out the truth and presenting it in a verifiable manner (these people are usually employed as journalists) were to pull on this thread, who knows where it might lead?

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                                                                                                The standards of evidence in most places, including science, are that you present evidence for your claims since (a) you should already have it and (b) it saves readers time. Bullshit spreads fast as both media and Facebook’s experiment show. Retractions and thorough investigations often don’t make it to same audience. So, strong evidence for source’s identity or claims should be there by default. It’s why you often see me citing people as I make controversial claims to give people something to check them with.

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                                                                                                  There’s nothing surprising about the employee’s claims. It’s like asking for evidence that Google spies on users. They admit to it, and so does Tesla. So there’s your evidence, and I think it’s sad that you’re taking these trolls here seriously.

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                                                                                                    Thanks for the link. Key point:

                                                                                                    “Every Tesla has GPS tracking that can be remotely accessed by the owner, as well as by Tesla itself. That means that people will always know where a Tesla is. This feature can be turned off, by entering the car and turning off the remote access feature. I am not sure why you would want to do this, but you can. Unfortunately, there are ways for a thief to turn off the remote access feature, and this will blind you to the specific information about the car. It will not stop Tesla from being able to track the car. They will retain that type of access no matter what, and have the authority to use it in the instances of vehicle theft.”

                                                                                                    re taking trolls seriously. We’re calling you out about posting more unsubstantiated claims via Twitter. If your goal is getting info out, then you will always achieve it by including links like you gave me in the first place. Most people aren’t going to endlessly dig to verify stuff people say on Twitter. They shouldn’t since the BS ratio is through the roof. Also, that guy didn’t just make obvious claims like they could probably track/access the vehicle: he made many about their infrastructure and management that weren’t as obvious or verifiable. He also made them on a forum celebrated for trolling. So, yeah, links are even more helpful here.

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                                                                                                      But the point isn’t to even say that everything written here is true. The point is to share a very interesting data point that likely constitutes primary source material, and force a reaction from Tesla to stop their dangerous practices (or offer them a chance to set the record straight if any of this is untrue, which we’ve established is unlikely).

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                                                                                                        “Dangerous” compared to what? Force how?

                                                                                                        Low-effort regurgitation of screencaps is not some big act of rebellion, it is just a way of lowering quality and adding noise.

                                                                                                        But the point isn’t to even say that everything written here is true.

                                                                                                        If we wanted to read fiction we could go enjoy the sister Lobster site devoted to that activity.

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                                                                                                          …it is just a way of lowering quality and adding noise.

                                                                                                          Being a troll is “a way of lowering quality and adding noise”.

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                                                                                                            Which is why several people are asking you to stop it.

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                                                                                                          Is there any evidence your tweets or Lobsters submissions have changed security or ethical practices of a major company?

                                                                                                          If not, then that’s either not what you’re doing here or you should be bringing that content to Tesla’s or investors’ attention via mediums they look at. It’s just noise on Lobsters.

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                                                                                                I agree with you in general, but this specific “article” is just garbage. (As far as I’m concerned, Twitter in general should be blacklisted from lobste.rs. Anything there is either content-free or so inconvenient to read as to be inaccessible.)

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                                                                                                I agree. I did at least learn from your link that Arnnon Geshuri, Vice President of HR at Tesla, was a senior one at Google that some reports said was involved in the price fixing and abusive retention of labor here. That’s a great hire if your an honest visionary taking care of employees who enable your world-changing vision. ;)