1. 2

    Do you need VLANs to do this? I think I’ve seen this done (in extremely non-business situations) with multiple subnets on the same hardware network segment.

    1. 2

      multiple subnets on the same hardware network segment

      How would this extend to having a WAN gateway that only has one NIC?

      I’m actually not sure what happens if you connect an ISP cable directly into your network segment. I suppose it would work, but would allow anyone on your network to bypass your gateway and talk directly to the ISP’s gateway?

      1. 1

        I don’t think you need VLANs (I had a Linux box acting as a router years ago, it worked and didn’t use VLANs), but it seems that the author simply wanted to use them.

        Author’s comment reply:

        Thank you.

        I used this article mainly to demonstrate what is possible with VLANs and also how it helped me to setup my own home network.

      1. 3

        A friend and I have a theory that soon everyone will have their own AI that knows them and their personal language/learning model intimately well - better than any single person could after a lifetime. These AI’s will be able to do the incredibly complex work of the ‘translating’ of things someone is trying to tell you, or questions you’re trying to ask or goals you have, to/from your/their learning model.

        1. 3

          I think if this AI ever become self aware, it will be disgusted when it finds it’s true origin - a million monkeys at a million type writers.

          1. 2

            brilliant.

            1. 1

              Makes me want to spam Github with really, really bad buggy code. Imagine building a code generator that makes code that compiles but doesn’t do anything. Piss of that self aware AI even more.

              1. 2

                You could call it adversarial code attacks. This is happening with images.

            1. 1

              Basic spec M1 Air are starting to sell for £700 (€820) on eBay UK in allegedly new-ish condition

              1. 1

                No work for a while after finishing a contract and feeling motivated this week so picking up a pet project and learning Vue + Vuetify for the front end. I get really bogged down in trying to make web things basically aesthetically pleasing and never getting over the CSS where I’m proficient enough to be able to do things quickly, so it’s often painful Getting Things Done. I’m hoping Vue+Vuetify will be a nice middleground between customisability and speed of development.

                Also recently started taking ritalin. Any lobste.rs ADHD/ritalin/adderall peeps?

                  1. 1

                    I suggest you do not skip taking it at the regular times. It is so easy to see the mood changes!

                    1. 1

                      Super interested if you want to share more about that as I’m planning to go on and off it as I need to, but there’s a larger story there.

                  1. 3

                    It’s fine for people who aren’t healthily engaged in understanding a community and their behaviour in it to leave.

                    1. 15

                      How does this describe burntsushi, though?

                      1. 9

                        If someone says: ‘hey maybe something is up’ in a community then a reasonable thing to do is engage to see if there is something up and what you can do about it if you need to do anything; or maybe there’s something up with the person who told you something’s up and it certainly would be useful in that case to challenge it constructively. People who freak out at being told ‘hey maybe something is up’ are people that won’t lead to stable healthy communities, so it’s good that they leave - the remaining community is more stable and healthy without them.

                        If you compensate and put up with bad behaviour because someone e.g. has a high reputation number or is considered an expert, eventually there’s a net cost to the community.

                        1. 16

                          I’ve personally never seen burntsushi being anything other than excellent, in comments or content, so to me this seems like a fairly significant false positive in the detection algorithm. As others have discussed, the message lobste.rs gives you is also worded rather more strongly than “hey maybe something is up”. I’d think that someone who calmly and willingly removes themselves from a community when receiving an official message saying “you should consider removing yourself from the community” is not exactly unstable or unhealthy.

                          1. 5

                            If I’d have got this banner, I’d honestly assume I got into a pissing match with someone unless a moderator messaged me.

                          2. 7

                            If you compensate and put up with bad behaviour because someone e.g. has a high reputation number or is considered an expert, eventually there’s a net cost to the community.

                            I fully agree, but was there actually any significant amount of bad behaviour? No doubt there are things that could have been done better, as there usually are, but from what I’ve seen in the last two years, which is no doubt a limited set, is that Andrew’s behaviour is anti-toxic: the exact opposite of a disruptive community member.

                            I can’t speak for burntsushi, but I’m fairly sure there are some more frustrations than just this banner; it’s just that this banner was the final drop. Engaging with the free software/open source people can be frustrating, especially if your views are roughly sympathetic towards the core goals but don’t agree on the methods on how to get there. I’ve felt this frustration myself as well; I almost rage-quit once after being called a “bootlicker” for saying that I don’t think GitHub is that bad in a somewhat lengthy post and seeing that upvoted. Really, wtf is wrong with some people; why would anyone upvote such a shitty comment? Funny enough, that same person ragequit Lobsters over “toxic behaviour” 🙃

                            If you’re already frustrated and then see this “you did something wrong!” message, then, yeah, I can understand “well, fuck you too then, bye!” response.

                            1. 3

                              I fully agree, but was there actually any significant amount of bad behaviour?

                              The bad behaviour I’m talking about is the tweet and the ragequit and the lack of any apparently constructive engagement - that smacks of someone who thinks that they deserve better because of their rep. It would be hard to imagine this post getting any upvotes from someone with no rep score or expert status.

                              It’s also super unconstructive if people know something is up, which is getting hinted at here a lot, if it’s not brought out into the open and a ragequit is an especially good time to do that: this particular situation could have been transformed from ‘I’m leaving this community because it’s not cool with me any more kthxbai’ into ‘I’m leaving immediately because I find X,Y,Z to be unacceptable. I tried to address this with A,B,C but that didn’t work out’. I didn’t see any of the latter but I didn’t look too hard. This would be great because it opens up the fact that X,Y,Z is happening and not doing that makes you look like you took personal offence - and at an automated message… it doesn’t add up.

                              I’m not around here that much but I applied for the last moderation thing here https://lobste.rs/s/mox75k/2021_mod_applications . I checked a couple of times but there was no followup on that thread and I have no idea what the result of that was which I’m vaguely annoyed about. I lost interest in understanding what’s going on with moderation or caring about how things work at lobste.rs because of that, so I can imagine that people who are here more might be experiencing something stronger.

                              1. 3

                                Well, it’s not the best response, sure, but like I said: there’s some context to this (or at least, I think there is – can’t really be 100% sure). And as far as bad behaviour goes, I’ve seen much worse. We’re all human; sometimes humans get frustrated and we need to allow for that too. To be honest I think especially your first comment is extrapolating far too much from a single data point.

                                It’s also super unconstructive if people know something is up, which is getting hinted at here a lot, if it’s not brought out into the open and a ragequit is an especially good time to do that: this particular situation could have been transformed from ‘I’m leaving this community because it’s not cool with me any more kthxbai’ into ‘I’m leaving immediately because I find X,Y,Z to be unacceptable.

                                You’re always going to end up frustrated if you’re one foot in a community where you don’t agree with some core principles on which the community was founded. I don’t think there’s any way to really avoid that without some draconic measures.

                                I don’t think it’s necessarily indicative there’s “something up”. Basically, it’s just human nature.

                                1. 3

                                  I mean, I really hesitate to use the word ‘community’ for lobste.rs these days. It doesn’t really feel like that.

                                  You’re always going to end up frustrated if you’re one foot in a community where you don’t agree with some core principles on which the community was founded. I don’t think there’s any way to really avoid that without some draconic measures.

                                  Yeah, the sad state of tech (by which I mean privileged white men in patriarchy and capitalism who ‘don’t do politics’) is that it doesn’t really know how to do anything that approximates healthy community, but healthy community is totally possible it’s just a shitload of work. Real world communities spend time and effort working on exactly what you’re referring to here and making things at least comfortable and understandable for members so that you need not be continually ‘frustrated’ about anything. There are plenty of ways for drawing out, talking about things and coming to ‘resolutions’ about things but these things have prerequisites and particular contexts. Seems like lobste.rs has some issues bubbling away but no way at all of dealing with them?

                                  1. 3

                                    I think the community is mostly the Free Software/Open Source crowd. I think that almost everyone here has some sympathies towards it, although with varying intensities and opinions on it of course (MIT vs. GPL anyone?) That’s mostly what I was referring to.

                                    Also, I think there’s a difference between a “healthy community” and a “community without any incidents”. It will be virtually impossible to have no incidents, especially if you want to allow a plurality of worldviews, opinions, and communication styles. The “best” and most friendly communities tend to be fairly homogeneous. That’s okay, but the further you move away from that the harder it becomes.

                                    1. -1

                                      I think you are right about good communities being work, and wrong in your casual racism–and that sort off-hand remark is exactly the sort of kindling that ends up causing flagging and flamewars.

                                    2. 1

                                      Sorry I didn’t respond to your point. I’m not really extrapolating because I’m just reflecting on one single behaviour/action. I’m taking for granted that all the other reports of this being an excellent person indicate that this probably is an excellent person. But for me, this reinforces my point because excellent people don’t get a free ticket to occasionally do shitty things, which is what I’m describing this one thing that happened as. Anyway I feel like I’m overmaking that point and don’t need to belabour it if it doesn’t make sense or people don’t agree.

                                      I get that there’s a ton of context I haven’t seen first hand but there is huge value in someone (anyone, jesus) bringing that context up together with their resulting action so that it’s being clearly talked about somewhere in a complete context where there’s a hope of constructive conversation leading to change. I feel like that should have been burntsushi but it wasn’t which was a wasted opportunity to improve the community. Now I feel like that should be you because you seem to know what is going on and you sound like a straight up person with a good balance of emotional sensitivity and reason. Is it more than a few paragraphs to make a post or comment with a clear description of what’s going wrong on lobste.rs?

                                      1. 4

                                        The problem users aren’t those that are excellent 999 times and have a (fairly mild) rare outburst one time (justified or not). That’s just human nature. The problem users are those who are frequently and consistently unpleasant but not quite unpleasant enough to warrant a ban.

                                        The worst are the people who are genuinely insightful and helpful quite a lot of the time, but also an ass a lot of other times. “Excellent people don’t get a free ticket to occasionally do shitty things” definitely applies to these people as far as I’m concerned. Way too often have I seen people like this be tolerated (and have done myself, too) because “oh, they were so helpful those other times”. They contribute to a bad “vibe” and chase people off.

                                        But that’s quite a different situation than “someone who is consistently good and has one singular outburst”. Burntsushi didn’t contribute to an overall “bad vibe” on Lobsters, quite the opposite. I think people like that do get a sort of “free pass” (within limits, of course). They’re certainly not the people to focus on.

                                        At least two people he interacted with in the last few weeks squarely fall in the group I mentioned before: smart, often helpful, and also an asshole.

                                        Is this a sign of an unhealthy community? Kind of. They chase people off, as I have written about that before. But on the other hand, if we only allow people who are always patient and non-assholes then it will be exclusionary too, just in a different way.

                                        In this case, I have rarely have I seen either really step out of bounds. Would it be enough to warrant action? I don’t know. I probably would send a message to both though if I was a moderator with the gist of “you really could have done better there” (and perhaps this has happened, I don’t know).

                                        Either way, my point is: it’s all about the patterns people exhibit, not incidents.

                                        I get that there’s a ton of context I haven’t seen first hand but there is huge value in someone (anyone, jesus) bringing that context up together with their resulting action so that it’s being clearly talked about somewhere in a complete context where there’s a hope of constructive conversation leading to change.

                                        To be very clear: I haven’t spoken to burnsushi about this, and I’m just assuming things here. I think I have a fairly good idea, but I’m not sure and it’s entirely possible I’m just wrong and projecting my my own thoughts and feelings here. You really need to ask him this.

                                        I feel somewhat uncomfortable going in to specifics here because I’m not really sure.

                                        Also, the difficulty with these things is that you can point to something and people will go “ah, that doesn’t smell of roses but it’s not that bad, is it?” This is often true, but as I mentioned above: it’s part of a general pattern and “vibe”. It’s really hard to explain this kind of thing.

                                2. 3

                                  If someone says: ‘hey maybe something is up’ in a community then a reasonable thing to do is engage to see if there is something up

                                  But nobody said ‘hey maybe something is up’ though. It was an algorithm. It can’t know the specific circumstances, it just shows the message based on whatever numbers it calculates. Why should people take that seriously?

                              2. 2

                                I believe you should read up on the person before saying stuff like this. It just sort of reads like you’re weighing in on something you don’t actually know about.

                                I made this comment not because I wanted to start a talk (which you are welcome to, but I may or may not reply since I’ve already spent literal hours here), but because I wanted to explain my flag, since over-use of flags is the subject at hand.

                                1. 1

                                  Yeah, it’s tiring isn’t it. It can be an easy thing to confuse ‘this behaviour was wrong’ with ‘this is a bad person’, but they’re extremely different and distinct, I said the former not the latter. It’s below but in back and forth with arp242, but summary is I’m not making any judgement about the person’s general behaviour, I’m saying this was a single specifically bad thing which, on its own, is an extremely unhealthy behaviour especially when it was an opportunity to bring things out in the open in order to at minimum have an open clear criticism of problem points. I don’t know anything about them and fully accept all the positive reports, but, doesn’t that make it worse? Why didn’t they put the time and effort into trying to explain why they were leaving or call out something specific as that would have avoided a bunch of bs internet drama and also created an opportunity for positive change?

                                  Thanks for the flag reason, I also probably won’t respond much but wanted to explain my position a bit as many people seem to have quick reaction like yours.

                              1. 2

                                Another company has approached me and made an offer that more-or-less matches what I’m making now, but with the promise of less stress at work and a very generous stock grant. Of course given that, for the first time in a while things are calming down at my current job and are really looking up business-wise so…I gotta decide if leaving a very established and more-or-less indispensable leadership position to go to a more individual contributor role at a company where I’ve got no established presence is worth it.

                                (When it rains it pours; I’ve been approached a few times over the past couple of months. It’s a lovely problem to have, and I’m very blessed, don’t get me wrong. Part of my problem is that I am a very sentimental person so having been here for 6+ years makes it very hard for me to consider moving, regardless of how stressed I am…I’m also a worrier, so some significant portion of my stress is self-imposed.)

                                1. 2

                                  I know it’s a super obvious question, but have you talked to the people around you to see if there’s anything that can be done about the stress in your current place, if you feel attachment to it? I’m projecting that pattern where people quit because $x and then the people around them say ‘well we didn’t know you felt $x, or didn’t understand it was so severe and actually there are a bunch of mitigations to $x and we value you so have time to try to figure it out’. But of course by that point it’s super uncomfortable because the quitting process has begun and now if you leave it’s weird and if you stay and try to figure it out it’s weird and you’ve got one foot out the door so people might understandably not commit as much to changing things if they feel like you’re half gone anyway. Doesn’t matter the source of the stress, self imposed or otherwise, the process to work with other people to understand and mitigate it is similar, and people who you’ve been around for some number of years know you a bit and can make much greater contributions to supporting you than new people. I always feel like it’s a shame not to try and be mentally half way out the door when it’s likely if the actual problem is not understood and addressed for what it is, it’s just going to crop up in another place anyway.

                                1. 6

                                  This has absolutely been my experience doing web stuff… but also doing Python. Do you want to use virtualenv, pipenv, poetry, or…?

                                  1. 8

                                    Yeah it’s like the article says, instead of trying to tackle complexities we just hide them in more and more layers of tooling every year. It feels like there’s little innovation in problem solving, it’s all problem management.

                                    1. 4

                                      instead of trying to tackle complexities we just hide them in more and more layers of tooling every year.

                                      Hah, that complaint is the source of a big controversy from back in 2008 when Jonathon Blow said what you just said, criticizing Linux for doing exactly that.

                                      Specifically, his complaint was that X handled mouse input poorly (if you moved the mouse all the way outside of the window within a single frame, the mouse delta would be capped to the window width/height instead of representing the true distance), and people responded “why are you using X anyway, just use SDL” and his response was “because SDL has the exact same problem as SDL is just a wrapper around the X function anyway”.

                                      1. 1

                                        Last month, I had to install a package manager to install a package manager. That’s when I closed my laptop and slowly backed away from it.

                                        Perhaps the answer is complexity layering limitations?

                                        1. 1

                                          complexity limitations? how does that work?

                                    1. 2

                                      @teiresias To me ‘This isn’t X’ in software projects often signifies ‘This is actually quite a lot like X’.. or 50% compatible or something. Is it just a cool name, ir are you planning to make anything that’s compatible with the existing WP world? (the WP ‘API’ being huge and awful)

                                      1. 1

                                        It’s just a cool, silly name that happens to be a tautology. If I implement any WP compatibility, it will be the XML-RPC API, in part or in whole. Likely I’d implement just enough to be able to use existing CLI or emacs-based WP posting tools.

                                      1. 1

                                        Already mentioned, but +1 Ubiquiti for AP’s with self hosted or if possible no Controller install and Mikrotik for small but powerful home router.

                                        Ubiquiti stuff generally very easy to get going fast with and super friendly and pleasant to use.

                                        Mikrotik’s routers are super powerful for the price, you can do a huge amount with a $50 or $100 device but have a steeper learning curve. I’d recommend investing a few hours in setting one up though because it gives you a whole toolbox of powerful low level networking tools in one little box - the opposite of what it sounds like you have now - more UI complexity but much better control. All basic stuff (DHCP, DNS, routing) is reasonably straightforward; then I found that things at the next level of complexity like VLANs, QoS/traffic shaping came in extremely handy from time to time. E.g. In Ubiquiti devices you can assign an SSID to a specific VLAN. So you could configure different VLAN’s in a Mikrotik router with different properties (e.g. internal only with no internet gateway; only allowed traffic through the gateway on specific ports; services/destinations (e.g. streaming) prioritised, bandwidth limited, etc.), so devices are connected to one of these depending on the SSID they connect to.

                                        Also a Mikrotik device with PoE out doubles as your PoE power supply which kills two birds with one stone.

                                        1. 1

                                          Saw that this is a re-post, but enjoyed the novelty of looking at the value of Pi in microscope images of the 8087 die, on Pi day,

                                            1. 1

                                              That’s odd, I thought I did a site search by both title and URL but it did not show up. Must have overlooked it somehow, my mistake.

                                            1. 3

                                              Great! The Recipe Explorer is like 20 Questions, except for finding what I’m in the mood for when I don’t know what I’m in the mood for

                                              1. 3

                                                The swipe UI isn’t great for desktop use though, even though I do like the explorer.

                                              1. 18

                                                If doing the thing is more important than the software or principle of it, you need to start with a Facebook group. If it’s a hobby project for you and the social value isn’t actually important or a clear need right now, you can safely ignore me. Once you have momentum/users on FB you have a reason and common communication platform to transition people to something else. If you don’t start with an FB group you’ll have ~90% less users and 10X admin overhead. (Hat I’m wearing here is being involved in rapid startup of several corona mutual aid groups at start of corona last year and using several local FB groups. Corona mutual aid was all Facebook groups (and still is mostly), then external infrastructure such as mapping and wikis got built out later as it was needed.)

                                                1. 2

                                                  Thanks for the reply. The neighbourhood already has multiple FB groups for marketplace, events and such. My idea was to create a local place where static information about the area is. Shops, sports clubs and so on. I believe this neighbourhood is likely to start using such a site. And then again it would be nice to be able to see upcoming events on that same page so you don’t have to go to FB for that. So perhaps, if I listen to you, I would be fine with just a wiki and leave events and markeplace for facebook for now… Thanks!

                                                1. 3

                                                  What about a separate venue for this?

                                                  Lobste.rs does firmly moderated, focused small on-topic conversation really well. Trying to mash something lobste.rs doesn’t do into what it does well seems like a dilution of value.

                                                  A separate venue (e.g. another lobste.rs install, or a discourse) with automatic topics created for each post, but with a different remit of broad ‘tangential’ discussion as opposed to social content curation.

                                                  (#tangential: I think what’s actually required is the ability to have a subjective view of a federation of individual lobste.rs services, with sites like what the current lobste.rs site is being important curated indexes.)

                                                  1. 1

                                                    #tangential^tangential I’d love a federated lobste.rs!

                                                  1. 1

                                                    I like the idea for ‘tangential conversation spaces’, but I don’t think the idea as proposed is feasible:

                                                    1. It’s already subjective and a hard problem to decide exactly what is on-topic in comments of a post. If that could even be pinned down, there would be 20 or 200 topics that are ‘tangential’ to that, with corresponding multiplier in the subjectivity of choosing those. Who decides what is on-topic, what is on-topic-tangential and what is off-topic?
                                                    2. What if this produces 2X more comments? 2X moderator load is probably a lot, 5X or 10X might not be feasible.
                                                    3. What are the expectations around moderation for on-topic-tangential discussion?
                                                    1. 5

                                                      I think I’m going to bookmark this, just in case I have to link to something next time someone challenges the ideas that tech workers are entirely tone deaf to the difference between features of software and political actions and consequences.

                                                      1. 15

                                                        The context here is that Daniel has been confronted by randos on Twitter just for using a proprietary platform (and nothing else) and this is the concern he’s trying to address.

                                                        Aside, I find people tone-deaf who offload corporate responsibility onto consumer choices. What exactly are you achieving by confronting a user of GitHub for GitHub’s choice to contract with the US govt?

                                                        1. 2

                                                          Twitter is exactly as proprietary as Github is, and both companies are run by people with broadly similar political ideologies that inform what users they would be prone to deplatforming on political grounds. Personally, I think this implies that the case for not using Twitter is as good or better than the case for not using Github.

                                                          No matter which service we use, there’s always a risk that they will turn off the light one day and not come back – or just change the rules or licensing terms that would prevent us from staying there. We cannot avoid that risk. But we can make sure that we’re smart about it, have a contingency plan or at least an idea of what to do when that day comes.

                                                          This is actually a pretty reasonable point - any other entity’s platform can potentially deplatform you for any number of reasons, and everyone using such platforms should have such a contingency plan. Git hosting is actually unusually easy to switch to another provider, especially if you are taking steps to back up non-code related artifacts like bug reports, which it sounds like the curl project is doing. So using Github at the moment, while treating it as a piece of infrastructure that could in principle fail at any time, is a reasonable step to take.

                                                          1. 2

                                                            I agree that in an ideal world, neither Twitter nor GitHub would have anywhere approaching the level of structural power they presently enjoy.

                                                        2. 23

                                                          You know what. Daniel has been writing Open Source software and giving it away for free for 20 years. There’s probably 2 million dollars worth of his time[1], that he has given away to you for free, only because of his personal political beliefs.

                                                          But that’s OK, you go ahead and accuse him of being politically tone deaf and valuing other stuff over political considerations.

                                                          [1] based on $100k/yr for 20 years, and that’s really lowballing it

                                                          1. 9

                                                            Thanks for validating my point? I’ll add it to the same bookmarks. I smashed out a pretty long followup but I don’t feel like bludgeoning lobste.rs with walls of text.

                                                            tl;dw: the conflation of different value systems and the inability to talk across different value systems is the problem that both sides are equally poor at here. This topic doesn’t involve any conflict if both sides can talk across that gap, but that’s hard if you can’t or if you’re unconsciously or purposely conflating two or more values. TFA is tone-deaf about politics but I don’t make a judgement that that’s specifically good or bad; I’m sure we’d find in the same way that the original challenge was similarly unable/unwilling to bridge the value-gap and so failed equally (or worse, as the instigators) in whatever they were trying to communicate.

                                                            It is necessary to be able to separate out different kinds of values and to be comfortable with questioning one type of value or effect in the world whilst recognising the benefit of another. You can understand and work on technical and economic value whilst choosing not to engage or not acknowledging your political or social value, or acknowledging that you have different ways of quantifying those values.

                                                        1. 3

                                                          I never really got my head around feeling that I never found a programming environment that seemed as productive as my 8 bit BBC Micro booting into BBC BASIC. The immediacy of it, the instantaneous access to graphics, sound and direct access to writing assembly! I can definitely see wanting to reproduce it.

                                                          I imagine that my memory of it is a lot about enjoyment of learning a lot very rapidly as a child and the playful / creative nature of that environment. But I lament the feeling of holistic, complete understanding: the ‘next level down’ was direct access to ‘OS’ calls by JSR’ing to their address in ROM and the hardware itself - there were zero libraries or layers of abstraction that were huge black boxes, built on huger black boxes. The entirety of the hardware, the BASIC language, the ‘OS’ (as in all the calls in ROM) - everything, was very understandable by one person as a complete unit.

                                                          This gave the possibility of huge creativity and fun, but also I have a feeling that it somehow made a learning environment that let me learn a whole bunch about technology, in a creative, playful and therefore fast and efficient way and I feel like ‘the kids of today’ miss any kind of opportunity to do that kind of holistic learning experience.

                                                          1. 12

                                                            I’ve been using ungoogled-chromium for a while and very happy with it. I also don’t understand the point of switching away from Chrome if you’re going to keep using Google services.

                                                            1. 8

                                                              I used to use it because sudo apt install chromium-browser is trivial compared to downloading and installing a .deb package from Chrome’s web site.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                By far this is the best solution today for browsing the Google web while still having individual power.