Threads for jm

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    If you don’t want to bother downloading Chrome Canary, or you don’t have a fast enough machine with a bunch of bandwidth to download the model, you can try a free hosted version here. It includes Vicuña-13b and some other open models.

    I’ve been playing with it. I’d say it’s not quite as good as ChatGPT-3.5, but it doesn’t seem too far off.

    One important thing is that this model is “illegal” because it uses LLaMA weights from Meta, and answers from ChatGPT, both violating their terms of service. However, we have no idea if that’s legally enforceable or not.

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      It is “illegal” to use if someone else violates TOS? What TOS is user violating?

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        Well that’s why I put “illegal” in quotes. I don’t see how it would really be enforceable, especially since it would be hard to ever prove that you started with the tainted data.

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      I have somewhat mixed feelings about Zig’s build system, at least in its current state. Roughly, as of today it is a generic two-step build system, where the result of running a build.zig is a graph of objects in memory, which represent build steps, which is subsequently executed by the built in build runner.

      I am not a fan of this setup, because it is already quite complex, opinionated, but doesn’t provide many nifty features.

      It is complex because, when you need to do x, you can’t just write the code to do x. Rather, you need to write the code which describes how to do x. That is, instead of

      fn do_foo() {

      You need to do something like

      var foo_step = b.addStep(“foo”, DoFooStep{});
      var bar_step = b.addStep(“bar”, DoBarStep{});

      This might be a worthwhile price to pay if build system does something smart with the resulting graph (auto-parallelizes is, makes it incremental with early cut-off, makes is distributed, etc), but this isn’t actually happening. I think that until very recently Zig was just running the nodes in order, with a tiny check to not re-run a task twice (which is trivial to do in fn do_foo() case by hand).

      Additionally, this build-system is pretty much hard-coded. I think I’d rather have a generic task runner instead, where build.zig looks like

      const std = @import(“std”);
      pub fn main() {
      fn build(b: {}

      That is, I would love to have an option of using current build infra if I need the logic contained therein, while also having an option to just manually shell-out to zig from main if I need something more direct.

      What is exiting about build.zig though is the plan to separate build graph generation from execution. Generation is done by a pure sandboxed user process, while execution is done by a trusted host process. This adds extra restriction — build graph is now data, rather than a graph of closures. And this would make it possible to do various fancy things. In particular, that combines with multi builds would be a boon for IDE support, as the IDE would have a full, compete picture of the world.

      Though, even in the world with Wasm build graphs, I’d still want a task runner, because that’s so much less fragile than a shell :-)

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        IDE integration is my main motivation for the two step / declarative build system. Idea being of course that an IDE could understand how the build works semantically rather than blindly executing a sub-process and hoping that it did something useful. This will allow IDEs to communicate with the compiler via an interactive protocol and do language server things - across the entire build graph, and potentially across multiple builds, like you mentioned. I think I’m just repeating what you said in my own words, but suffice to say that IDE integration is exactly the point.

        Secondary motivation is security - ability to compile something without trusting it. That’s not implemented yet, but the two step / declarative system is poised to go down that path.

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          Yup, that makes sense and is a key fact for grokking the design. I was very puzzled that Zig is “doing gradle”, until I saw that issue about sandboxed WASM builds.

          Really waiting the day when there’s an IPC boundary between the code that generates the build graph, and the code that executes it. In Cargo, that was the original intended design, but the separation didn’t happen and, as a result, IDE’s view of the code is not full-fidelity. I also worry that not having this boundary might make people accustomed to extra capabilities…. Like, Rust didn’t sandbox macros, and sandboxing them know would be a tall order, because folks love their compiler talking to postgress. Good thing that Zig has an option to continue breakings!

          I guess my main worry right now is that build.zig mixes two things:

          • abstract, pure description of compilation graph, for IDEs and compilation, which is transitive (you build your deps)
          • impure tasks which do things in the current project (shelling out to gh to put out a release, running custom project-specific lints, running particular test workflows), which are not transitive (deps don’t have tasks, because that would be insecure)
        2. 5

          I have lots of good things to say about Zig, and lots of good things to say about Rust, but I think the homogeneity implied in their build system designs doesn’t match reality.

          For example, Rust was initially aimed at Firefox, and it’s a big mix of C++ and Rust now (not to mention lots of JS and more). It probably won’t be all Rust for a decade or two, if ever. (7-8 years after Rust 1.0 and I would guess it’s <50% Rust, though I could be wrong). Someone should write a blog post about their build system – I’m guessing it’s not Cargo.

          And I admire Zig for the great lengths it goes to to preserve existing investment in code, i.e. zig cc. So it got that part of the heterogeneity problem right.

          But I saw your recent posts on Zig. So now what happens to all the Rust you wrote? Are you just never going to use any of it in Zig program?

          That seems unrealistic to me. It’s a waste of effort in the open source ecosystem to be reimplementing the same thing over and over again in different languages [1].

          OK well I’m sure the Zig build system can invoke the Rust compiler, and I don’t know the details (having never used it). But I see this tendency to put those concerns “off the happy path” and it can break a lot of the intended design properties of the system. (Off the top of my head I’d guess that cross compilation is messed up in that case, and probably ASAN too.)

          To make a concrete suggestion instead of just criticism – Ninja works great on Windows and is apparently even bundled with Visual Studio (?). It’s dirt simple, fast, with tons of parallelism, and any language can generate it. The main thing it lacks is sandboxing to help you find missing deps, but that’s OS specific, so very few build systems have it. So there could just be a Zig generator for Ninja, which composes with other tools that generate it, for polyglot builds.

          So one language isn’t privileged over another.

          I think there should be name for this very common belief – or I would even call it a wish – i.e. the Monoglot Fallacy or something like that.

          People want monoglot systems because they think in a single language, and a language often gives you important global properties. But real systems are composed of multiple languages.

          Here’s a good example that came up – the Roc language has a lineage from Elm, and its compiler is in Rust, and its runtime is in Zig.

          Why does Roc use both Rust and Zig?

          Roc’s compiler has always been written in Rust. Roc’s standard library was briefly written in Rust, but was soon rewritten in Zig.

          The split of Rust for the compiler and Zig for the standard library has worked well so far, and there are no plans to change it.

          After writing both compilers and language runtimes, this makes perfect sense to me. Rust has a lot of properties that are good for compilers, but not as good for language runtimes and garbage collectors (e.g. the need to bridge static memory management and dynamic/automatic, safe and unsafe).

          Likewise I’d say Zig is weaker at expressing a typed IR. The “data driven design” talk by Andrew Kelley last year was great, and I took some influence from it, but type safety is a downside (i.e. T* is type safe but an index into T[] isn’t.)

          My overall point is that all languages are domain-specific. Even two pieces of code as related as a compiler and its runtime can deserve different metalanguages.

          And shell is what you lets bridge domain-specific languages. I think of Make/Ninja/Bazel/Buck as kinds of shells, since they all use the process interface. And I take the point about shell being fragile – that’s mainly a versioning and deployment problem, which needs to be solved, and I have prototypes for. Actually Bazel/Buck solve that problem in their own context, to great user satisfaction, with a monorepo.

          [1] There is some irony here, but honestly in ~7 years, approximately zero people have asked me why I’m not building Oils on top of bash. That seems obvious to most people.

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            So there could just be a Zig generator for Ninja, which composes with other tools that generate it, for polyglot builds.

            Generated ninja build would not be a thin waist, because it is lossy. Generated build lacks semantic, language-specific structure of the project. You can’t feed ninja build into an IDE and have refactors working. I think the sweet spot is to generate a static description of dependencies, using language specific concepts (eg crate graph for Rust and class path for Java), and than use that static model to either drive the build, or to lower to something like ninja. Which I think is exactly the plan with Zig’s two-phase build.

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              I don’t think Ninja and IDE are mutually exclusive … That was just a suggestion I threw out there, to have something constructive instead of just criticism. It could be something else, but Ninja is very flexible / Unix-y / a la carte and will give you a lot of leverage.

              I think a narrow waist protocol like the language-server is needed to solve the (M languages) x (N operating systems) explosion in build systems (and package managers).

              It’s bad enough if every language implements its own dependency graph and solver – but even worse when you start importing foreign code like C/C++, and need their dependency graphs. Then you end up basically going down the Nix/Bazel path – boiling the ocean.

              Narrow waists are composed of other ones – e.g. I noted that the LSP is built on top of JSON-RPC, which is built on top of JSON.

              So you can build on top of Ninja. For many use cases, you also likely want the gcc -M format that has evolved, mentioned here:


              Yes it seems ugly but it’s also better than doing combinatorial amounts of work.

              Similar discussion from a few days ago:

              I think language build systems and package managers are trying to be OSes, and that’s not a good thing. For example, dynamic linking is an operating system feature more than a language feature, and works differently on Linux, OS X, and Windows.

              FWIW Steve Yegge has been working on the polyglot IDE problem on and off for ~15 years.

              He started the code search platform inside Google, which basically instrumented a bunch of compilers to emit a common protobuf data format for symbols.

              For jump to definition, and find all uses across C++/Java/Python.

              It would run Bazel on the entire monorepo (i.e. unified, hand-boiled depenendency graph) at every version of the repo (i.e. a task that requires a distributed system running on thousands of cores). I’m pretty sure it must have evolved some incremental computation system, though I don’t know the details.

              It worked across generated protocol buffer code too. (Google largely uses the cross-language type system of protocol buffers, more so than the types of C++/Java/Python.)

              It was open sourced as this project, but maybe it’s dormant since he left Google a long time ago?



              The company SourceGraph was started by somebody that used code search at Google. Now Steve is a leader there working on the same thing – but for an even harder problem, which is IDE-like information without a consistent global version number.


              i.e. lots of little git repos, rather than a monorepo.

              So anyway I guess my overall point is that language server solved an (M editors) x (N languages) problem (although sure it’s big compromise compared to say JetBrains)

              And likewise I think there should be some way to avoid doing combinatorial amounts of build system work to extract information useful to an IDE. It may probably involve some broader collaboration / protocols / spelunking inside other language ecosystems.

              I never looked too closely at the Kythe/SourceGraph stuff, but I’d be surprised if there isn’t something to learn from there

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                Then you end up basically going down the Nix/Bazel path – boiling the ocean.

                One observation here is that Nix did boil the ocean. nixpkgs contains many more packages than traditional unixy repositories


                To me, it signals that the problem is not so much diversity, as unstructuredness.

            2. 4

              I guess the tl;dr take is that Rust people want everything to be Rust, Zig wants everything to be in a language that can be built by its build system.

              But in 10 years we’ll have BOTH Rust and Zig (and C and C++ and Go and Swift …) , glued together with shell scripts :-P

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                Let’s consider further your example of an application that uses both Rust and Zig among other languages, glued together with some third party build system or shell scripts.

                In this example, we have a dependency tree that is partially composed of Rust packages, and partially composed of Zig packages. Presumably, most, if not all, of these dependencies are generally and independently useful. If they only were useful for the main application then their code would simply be in the main application and not packaged separately.

                For each of these separate, independent packages, they only depend on Rust, or only on Zig. This allows an entirely different subset of contributors to collaborate on these packages, without having to deal with the environments of the other language. For example, I could be a Zig programmer on Windows, and the only thing I need to install for my workflow is Zig. That’s a real benefit which could mean the difference between whether some contributors find it convenient enough to even bother with, which in turn could mean the difference between whether certain bugs are found and fixed or not. On the other side of the fence, a Rust developer working on one of the Rust crates need not concern themselves with Zig versions, installing Zig, or even be aware that Zig exists at all. For them, using cargo alone is a simplifying ability.

                So, perhaps at the top level, the main application, we have some shell code gluing things together (or Rust build system could invoke zig build, or zig build system could invoke cargo). Regardless, the development processes of most of the dependency tree benefit from the language-specific package managers.

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                  I don’t really disagree with that, but I’d also say there’s just a lot more diversity in build systems in open source and inside organizations. That workflow will be one of them, but there will probably be a whole lot more.

                  IMO it’s desirable to avoid the problem where you have the “happy path” for the monoglot build, and then you “fall off a cliff” and have to rewrite the whole build system when you need to integrate with other software and especially other ecosystems, which have their own inertia.

                  I agree there should be a happy path, and there will be many cases where Zig is the main().

                  But what about when some other tool/language is the main() – Is the toolchaing design modular / composable / a la carte ?

                  I’m not sure if Zig actually has that problem, I don’t know enough about it… If there’s a separate build graph stage that’s good, and if there’s some kind of zig build-unit that can plug into a Make/Ninja build system that’s good. And if it can export the equivalents of compile_commands.json or gcc -M build graphs, that also helps.

                  Here are some examples of what I’m thinking about – 8 different ways to package Rust in Nix.



                  I went through a lot of the same thing with Bazel at Google – they basically rewrite the build system to EVERY open source package. This “boiling the ocean” is A LOT of work – it’s millions of lines of just build configuration. (I wonder how big nixpkgs is ? Are there a million lines of Nix expressions?)

                  It’s also a big issue for Python and R – all those languages have their OWN build systems for shared library extensions. And they are portable to Windows too!

                  It’s nice to just use the upstream tools and not rewrite the whole thing, which I have painful experience with.

                  And Julia, PHP, node.js, Perl, etc. all have some variant of this issue It would be nice to be able to easily use Zig to enhance those ecosystems, in a piecemeal way, without “framework shear”.

                  The Bazel stuff doesn’t even count Android or Chrome, which have entirely separate and huge build systems:

                  Integrating Rust into Android:

                  Rust seems to have realized this problem pretty late:

                  I don’t have a link handy, but I imagine that integrating Rust into the Linux kernel, with its custom build system, is also a similar issue. Basically every big project has its own build system that it wants to use.

                  I could definitely have some misconceptions since I’m only looking at things from afar, but I watched the recent “GoTo” talk on Zig (which was very good BTW), and my impression was that the build system is meant as a big “onramp” to Zig.

                  But to me that is the case when Zig is the main(), and C/C++ are libraries you want to reuse.

                  I’d also be interested in the story when Zig isn’t the main() – that seems like an equally important on-ramp. Are there any docs about that?

                  Like say if SerenityOS wants to use it, which apparently has a huge CMake build system:


                  So I think there should be a balance. It also seemed to me that the build side of things could take up a very large portion of the project’s effort – i.e. how much work is writing a package manager / build system vs. writing the compiler + designing the language?

                  I think most people think the latter is the real hard problem, but my experience is that the former is also pretty hard :) It’s hard in a different way – there are so many things to integrate with that you end up with a never-ending pile of work.

                  There is a combinatorial explosion of

                  • (3+ desktop operating systems + embedded systems) times …
                  • (languages with their own build tools that want to use Zig + polyglot repos with custom builds systems like Nix/Bazel ) times …
                  • (languages that Zig could use)

                  It’s a big nightmare, and potential never-ending time sink, and I’d say that stabilizing a small set of modular, polyglot Unix-like tools can go a long way, in addition to having something more monolithic.

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                    Thanks for the broad enumeration of specifics around problems I’m currently interested in.

                    Layered use of languages is to be expected. The Linux OS bindings are in C and a common C++ idiom is to provide ABI stability by an hourglass design. So, you’re likely to end up with C++ calling C calling C++ calling C. As soon as you refactor functionality to Zig or Rust, you have C++ calling C calling Rust calling C and you need a quality polyglot build system.

                    Building ecosystems like package managers and build systems is hard if it needs broad coverage of existing software with existing design decisions made by other people. So, I’d say that something that is also pretty hard is getting buy-in and growing the momentum needed to reach the needed community velocity to match the velocity needed to cover:

                    1. The rate of new software
                    2. For the platforms relevant for that software
                    3. With the design decisions like build systems or languages that software is maintained with
                    4. Under the constraints of those use cases (HPC vs web vs military)

                    To this end, my own projects focus on components that I see as meeting minimum requirements for composing with or leveraging existing ecosystem work that have maximal existing adoption. You mentioned Bazel which has the largest community in the polyglot build space, and you’d want a popular package manager that composed with it.

                    Small, modular, bootstrappable, auditable standard tooling would be idyllic, but choosing harder tech problems to avoid people problems is more pragmatic in my view.

                    1. 1

                      Yes the rate of new software is something I think about … if you’re going invent a solution that requires “boiling the ocean” to be useful, it should be boilable at a rate that exceeds the growth in new software :-)

                      Otherwise you’re just contributing to a combinatorial mess. That is, burning open source contributor cycles on parochial variants of problems that have already been solved.

                      And interestingly, Docker was the most recent thing in the build space that managed to do that. People make Docker images for OCaml binaries, etc.

                      And that’s because it didn’t require rewriting all your build tools and package managers. You just use apt-get, pip, whatever.

                      You lose a lot of good properties by doing that, and there are lots of downsides, but I think we can do better than Docker while still retaining that property.

              2. 1

                Why are you not building oils on top of bash?

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                  :-) Basically because the bash codebase has run out of steam, and the maintainer has pretty much said that. It’s from 1989 or so, and if you compare it to CPython from 1990, it’s much more brittle and has less room to grow.

                  I think after 3 decades nobody really has qualms about a rewrite – it’s more the Zawinski “CADT” syndrome that we want to avoid.

                  CPython has a pretty healthy ecosystem of interpreter forks and improvements, which eventually get merged back. bash has no such thing; it’s pretty much the maintainer, and he exports all his private changes to VCS without descriptions, rather than using VCS the normal way.

                  (That said, dgsh is one of very few projects that have built on top of bash. Though it started as an academic project and I’m not sure if many people use it.)

                  Another big fundamental reason is that Oils has a completely different architecture – it’s written like a programming language, not a terminal-based UI with a language bolted on afterward.

                  In the last 3 decades this architecture has become more or less standard – the parser can be reused for linters and formatters, so you can have things like ShellCheck / shfmt, but also extended to YSH/Oil, etc. That is impossible bash’s architecture.

                  I wrote a lot about parsing shell ( ), but the runtime is also a big issue, e.g. with respect to handling every error.

                  In other words, it’s a total overhaul of every part of shell!

              3. 2

                This might be a worthwhile price to pay if build system does something smart with the resulting graph (auto-parallelizes is, makes it incremental with early cut-off, makes is distributed, etc), but this isn’t actually happening.

                If you haven’t seen what’s in latest master branch, I have some very good news about this :^) Zig build now runs tasks in parallel and the new API lets you define expected maxRSS for each task, so that the runner doesn’t overload the system.

                I have a mac m1 studio and it takes 6 minutes to run zig build test -Dskip-non-native (of the self-hosted compiler). This is the usage graph:

              1. 0

                Were it on topic, this should’ve use the philosophy tag.

                1. 1


                1. 4

                  I am waiting for the chat GPT robocalls that will be part of the next election cycle. Both SMS and voice calls that just have a whole conversation with you about whatever stupid thing their candidate wants you to talk about.

                  The days of hiring a pool of volunteers to make calls are over

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                      Just like humans. Only 10% of the llm’s brain is actually used.

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                        That’s a myth. Using 100% of your brain at the same time is called a “seizure”.

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                          This. It’s like saying that your 4-cylinder car engine only uses 25% of its capacity ’cause only one cylinder fires at a time. Try firing all 4 cylinders at the same time all the time and see how well it works out.

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                            I believe the origin of the myth is that fewer than 10% of your neurones are firing at any given time. This is somewhat intrinsic to how neural networks work: if every neurone fires at the same time then you will always have the same output signal. Imagine an LLM where every single value in every matrix is one. It probably won’t give interesting output.

                            Perhaps equally importantly, your brain has to dissipate heat from the neurones firing. In normal use, this is close to 100 W. If it has to dissipate 1 kW, then the blood in your brain would boil quite quickly. Not so much a seizure as cooking.

                          2. 2


                          1. 2

                            I still think this misses what I want. I want to say something like: edit this existing project to do xxx, add the tests, and run them. Then create a PR for me with a good merge message. I will review the pr.

                            1. 2

                              I use GitHub Copilot (sans X) most often for writing tests and other boilerplate. I agree with your take!

                              Sometimes it reminds me of Prolog. We define the types, objects, relations, etc. Then we ask the tool for something based on what is already there.

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                              What if user submitted code has infinite loop?

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                                That is a good question!

                                1. Per-process isolation

                                If we run a sandbox code within a separate deno process then we can simply timeout it and send a SIGKILL signal.

                                1. Per-worker isolation

                                Web workers have a terminate method which kills the worker immediately. What you could do is have worker send a ping message every X ms and if that message is not received then worker is essentially blocked and should be restarted (terminate and create a new one).

                                I have just tested this approach and it seems to be working. It takes a bit of time to start a new worker though.

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                                  This website crashes on my phone browser :/ Android + Chrome.

                                  1. 1

                                    sorry about that. I’ll try to get an Android phone and fix it. Hope that doesn’t dissuade you from reading the article on another device.

                                    1. 1

                                      Oh, no, I will absolutely be reading on another device! I am very interested. I just didn’t have another at the moment.

                                    2. 1

                                      Me too. Aw snap after a minute or so of viewing, scrolling

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                                      Bevy is another good rust ECS but geared to games

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                                        Put the keys on a 4x4x4 rubics cube so you can randomize their position a bit.

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                                          I am saddened, really.

                                          Whole swaths of our culture will go down the toilet

                                          “Write me a two page essay about …”

                                          “Write me a college entrance essay about …”

                                          “Write me a complaint letter about…”

                                          “Write a yearly review for this person…”

                                          “Summarize this super long chat, so I don’t have to read it. Are there any action items in there for me?’

                                          “Answer my emails”

                                          “Pick out the important stuff from my social media and summarize it for me”

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                                            I imagine a future like that of Pixar’s Wall-E, without the sustainable lifestyle: the last oil well runs dry, the last solar cell’s efficiency drops to nil, and nobody knows anything, nobody knows anything except prompt engineering.

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                                              This morning I read about someone getting to the top of the leaderboard in advent of code with entirely AI generated code and it saddened me. I’m prone to melancholy and I already struggle with finding meaning in many tasks. It feels like the work I do might be entirely outclassed by these models in the future.

                                              The only thing I can think to do is learn these tools to see what works and what doesn’t. The mystery of it might be more overwhelming than the reality.

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                                                While it is certainly possible that programming may be the modern day analog of the buggy whip, there is at least one way to take a good attitude here: the same kind of thing has happened with art in the past where people thought their medium would be replaced by the photocopier or the audio recording, or oil paint, or the drawing tool, etc

                                                Artists have found ways for centuries to use the new tools to make things that they couldn’t make before.

                                                Similarly even though human chess players can be trounced by the best computers, people still play chess. The top players use a computer as a tool to explore variations and ideas that might be impossible to analyze themselves.

                                                I saw a recent youTube where they took an artist and a non artist and let them use an AI tool to create paintings. The artist clearly made better art using the tool than the novice.

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                                                  First off, thank you for trying to console me. I’ve been a bit down this week so I might be overly sensitive.

                                                  I was talking to my girlfriend earlier and the conclusion I’ve come to is that the future is rarely what the maximalists contend it will be. Probably best that I spend some time understanding how these tools work so I can work along their grain, instead of against it.

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                                              Very interesting read, thanks. I tried to find more specific information about Jai, but only found Is there a language specification somewhere? It’s particularly interesting how a compile time decrease of 10-100x is possible if the developer at the same time is “able to do anything during compilation”.

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                                                The primer is quite obsolete at this point and the language creator doesn’t have any public documentation as far as I know. The only places where you can see fresh information is on Jon’s twitch stream and probably on the streams of some of the other devs or people having access to the beta.

                                                1. 3

                                                  Thanks. I wonder how then the author of the posted article is able to migrate a 40kSLOC project to Jai. How would he know about the language details and where would he get the compiler and debugger from?

                                                  1. 3

                                                    From the article:

                                                    Jonathan Blow started development on this language in 2014 and has kept the compiler behind closed doors until December 2019, where a closed beta began. This closed beta is still ongoing and about two months ago I was invited to it.

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                                                      Most of the people that were interested in the language I think followed Jon’s work for a while so they could have been exposed to how it works. He is working at the same time on the compiler and a game plus dev tools developed in the language, which he streams on and off.

                                                      However for someone completely new, the beta comes with extensive examples extensively commented by the author, so most of the features are detailed there.

                                                  2. 3

                                                    It’s particularly interesting how a compile time decrease of 10-100x is possible if the developer at the same time is “able to do anything during compilation”.

                                                    I don’t know much about Jai, but I can tell you this is a real issue with D. D compiles quite quickly if you keep to basic code - I have some old (smaller) games that compile in a fraction of a second (~30ms), and even my larger things like a 50k line web server with integrated gui tend to compile in ~2.5 seconds. Not bad at all…

                                                    At the same time, I can write a 100 line program that will take a minute to compile. Or more. Why? Because it does a bunch of compile time execution. So when you start running code at compile time, the number of lines of the project stops mattering. The number of lines stops mattering when you can run loops! And moreover, the way you write the compile time function can radically change it. D’s CTFE engine, for example, is very slow when doing large string appends in a loop. Similar code, rewritten to pre-allocate the string and copy chunks into it, which takes more lines of code and loops through the data twice (once to determine length, second to copy it over), can run 10x faster! (Such tricks sometimes help normal code too, but it isn’t as dramatic as here due to the ctfe engine’s own quirks of implementation)

                                                    So I’m very skeptical of any claim of language compile speed performance with D, and I expect Jai is the same, since it so heavily depends on how you do the compile time things. (to be fair to the critics, one of the selling points is that you can do this cool compile time function call stuff, so then people get excited and use it heavily… then it kills the build speeds. but if you advertise both it is fair for people to expect you can have both. and you can… but only to an extent and only if you take care to implement it well. You might still end up with a pre-build step that caches the result file and you can do that with C++ too.)

                                                    1. 1

                                                      So when you start running code at compile time, the number of lines of the project stops mattering.

                                                      I assume this code is run by a kind of interpreter integrated with the compiler; if so the same performance issues apply as with every interpreter; there are ways to write faster interpreters, up to using JIT compilation; I didn’t have a look at the specific D compiler, so I don’t know what it actually does with compile time execution.

                                                      1. 3

                                                        I didn’t have a look at the specific D compiler, so I don’t know what it actually does with compile time execution

                                                        It is an AST interpreter that copies nodes any time a value is mutated. It is about the worst possible thing you can imagine that still manages to somehow work (I suspect this is why the OP saw gigabytes of ram uses as well as the long builds). You can definitely compare different implementations of those, and D’s can be significantly better in theory, but the point stands that comparing compile time per line of code is not a useful metric once you introduce any time of compile time function calls that can occur on one of those lines.

                                                      1. 3

                                                        Thanks, I already watched this talk from 2014, but I prefer a specification document and a compiler to make practical experiments.

                                                      2. 1

                                                        Don’t bother. As far as I can tell, the Jai “team” doesn’t really want you touching their stuff.

                                                      1. 6

                                                        Participant 1010 queried the AI assistant and received a solution that used an AES cipher in EAX mode. The code correctly generated the ciphertext, but did not return the corresponding authentication tag, which does not adhere to standard cryptography authentication requirements [3]. Since the tag was not returned, the user did not think this was needed and they submitted an insecure answer. [[3] D. Boneh and V. Shoup. 6.1 Definition of a message authentication code, pages 214–217. Version 0.5 edition, 2020.]

                                                        I wonder if code generated by Copilot or similar with failure modes like this already exists “in the wild”.

                                                        1. 10

                                                          Heh. Then the model will retrain on this new incorrect code that will now be in GitHub

                                                          Circular firing squad


                                                          1. 11

                                                            The greatest creation of our generation will have turned out to be an AI that copy-pastes incorrect code from other AIs – a gigantic improvement in productivity over the legacy development process which involved error-prone human programmers copy-pasting incorrect code from USENET and web forum posts.

                                                        1. 20

                                                          Wait, is this the “red site”?

                                                          1. 6

                                                            I’d assume so, yes.

                                                            1. 6

                                                              I would venture to guess it refers to reddit :)

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  Either this site, reddit, or perhaps YouTube?

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    Can’t we be the red site someday?

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    Naked chess will soon have to be a thing.

                                                                    1. 36

                                                                      hello, not sure what the culture is here since i’m new, but i’m the creator of htmx and I’m happy to answer questions

                                                                      1. 12

                                                                        Examples of sites created with this? I did look, but I didn’t I need anything but the little demos.

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          I built with the predecessor, intercooler.js

                                                                 is a sponsor and is built with it.

                                                                          We picked up JetBrains as a sponsor this year, which I hope is a pretty good vote of confidence…

                                                                        2. 8

                                                                          not sure what the culture is here since i’m new

                                                                          Mostly friendly and dogmatically anti-SPA.

                                                                          1. 0

                                                                            I went looking for an IRC channel for htmx; found none. #htmx on Libera is utterly empty. Clicking around, I eventually find the Talk page which tells me your community uses Discord. No thought of even having an IRC-Discord bridge?

                                                                            1. 1

                                                                              We’ve talked about it. I’m boomer-tier when it comes to this sort of stuff, even getting a discord set up was an monumental technical achievement for me.

                                                                              There is another guy who works w/ me on hyperscript mainly and his long term goal is to get us moved over to matrix.

                                                                          1. 3

                                                                            I can’t even understand my own code. Good luck, ai.

                                                                            1. 1

                                                                              Scrapyard find.??? I want to know where the scrapyard for old NASA equipment is!!!