Threads for joesavage

  1. 6

    The challenging open issue I see with this sort of idea is the question of what links people will see by default when they view a page. If they see only the links the author put in, then we will generally have a situation no different than today (as most people will never change that default). If they see some additional set of links by default, then there will be ferocious competition from spammers to get their links included in that set and in general large arguments about what links will be included in it.

    For better or worse, HTML and browser technology today has a simple, distributed, scalable, and clearly fair answer to the question of ‘what links appear in a page by default’, and it’s one that keeps browsers and other central parties out of disputes (and generally out of the game of influencing the answer).

    (I admit that these days I look at all new protocols through the lens of ‘how can they be abused by spammers and other bad people’, but partly this is because we know spammers and other bad people are out there and will actively attempt to abuse anything they can.)

    1. 8

      The challenging open issue I see with this sort of idea is the question of what links people will see by default when they view a page.

      This is something we were concerned with at Xanadu during the development of XanaSpace (since we had all links in the form of loadable ODLs). The conclusion we came to was that a document author could recommend a particular set of links to go with their document, and that furthermore, people would produce and share collections of links (which, since they are not part of the content & are bidirectional, combine with transclusion to add additional context even to documents where the author is unaware of them) in sort of the same way as or BoingBoing curates collections of other people’s web pages. Any resident links (including formatting links) would be applied when relevant (i.e., when the original source of any transcluded content overlapped with something mentioned in a link), and a person’s personal link collection would be private until shared.

      This sort of mirrors the fediverse / SSB model of requiring intentional hops between independent communities. Taking advantage of default link sets for spamming purposes only makes sense when the landscape is flat – where everybody sees everything unless they take countermeasures, and thus anything, no matter the quality, scales up indefinitely with no further human input. If, on the other hand, things only spread when they are actively shared by individuals from across different communities (each acting as curator for the sake of their community), the impact of these problems becomes small and it ceases to be worth the effort for bad actors.

      Ultimately, the links that appear on the page should be controllable by the person viewing the page, just like the formatting of the page should be under their control. In the case of links, that probably means trusting your friends and a handful of professional curators to have good taste & not scam you.

      1. 3

        This is really interesting. I did a reasonable chunk of reading around Xanadu in my research for this project, but ended up spending more time looking at ‘open hypermedia’ stuff and didn’t have the time to dive into a lot of the nitty gritty details as much as I would have liked. The details you’ve mentioned, for instance, seem to have totally passed me by.

        Curiously, although these kinds of ecosystem considerations weren’t really the main focus of my work, I think I came to somewhat similar (though less developed) conclusions in the assumptions I made for my prototyping work. If you wouldn’t mind, do you think you’d be able to point me towards a source for the design discussions you mentioned? I’d love to read more about this.

        1. 7

          Most Xanadu documentation is purely internal to the project, & the stuff that gets released is usually pretty non-technical. The discussions around how ODLs would be distributed were never made public at all, as far as I can tell (and they are part of a now-abandoned subproject). However, I did a technical overview of all of the Xanadu stuff I was privy to that wasn’t under trade secret(mirrored here), and this is probably the most complete & accessible public documentation on the project.

          ODL distribution isn’t covered in detail here, and XanaSpace never got to the point where it was seriously discussed in a systematic way, though there were some ideas thrown around, which I should document.

          Specifically: there was the concept of a ‘xanaful’ – a tarball containing all of the files (EDLs, ODLs, links, and sourcedocs) necessary for constructing a constellation of related documents. Paths in the tar format are just strings prefixing the content blob, so we were planning to use the full permanent address of each piece of content as its path, and check all resident xanaful tarballs for those addresses before fetching them from elsewhere. The idea is that a xanaful would be a convenient way for people to share not-yet-public documents, distribute stuff on physical media to be used where network access is limited, send bookmarks to friends in big chunks, distribute private ODLs (which contain formatting – and therefore themeing – links in addition to inter-content links), and get people who are a little skeptical to try a xanadu viewer out. Sending a xanaful out-of-band (for instance, by email) would be one method of ODL distribution.

          I wanted & was pushing for more of a peer-to-peer system. Specifically, I wanted individual XanaSpace applications to serve up the public parts of their caches to peers (to limit strain on hosts), and I wanted inter-peer communication to support a kind of friends network for sharing EDLs and ODLs directly with particular people. I was thinking of using gopher for this, since gopher is awfully simple to implement. (This is the system I wanted to use for transcopyright’s encryption oracle: the author’s machine or some trusted proxy would take requests for the OTP segment, check against a whitelist of authorized users, and distribute the OTP segment or a zeroed-out dummy.) There are some legal issues with this (which IPFS and SSB are discussing as well) and Ted wasn’t really comfortable with jumping into full distributed computing; also, this cut out any potential profit, and Ted still thinks of Xanadu as potentially profitable. As a result, none of these particular ideas got taken very seriously or had serious development work attached to them.

          Post-XanaSpace, our translit viewers have ditched the ODL entirely in favor of sticking link addresses in the EDL. (Our code always supported intermixing the two, but there was a conceptual division that I thought was useful.) It makes things easier for newcomers to understand but I think it does so at the cost of some clarity: now, people can still pretend that the author owns all the links in their document, and this only becomes clearly untrue when two authors link transclusions of overlapping segments from two resident documents. The web-based translit viewers only support one resident document at a time, so this never happens. (Having many resident documents at once is a vital feature & so we shouldn’t expect later implementations to keep this trend except accidentally.)

    1. 11

      Loved the article. I suggest to add the osdev tag.

      A few points you might like to reflect upon:

      • the existing Web, where authors link to previous works, is a technological reppresentation of how scholars worked for centuries. You can add a link to a document: just write a new document that quote and link the original document and the new one. Knowledge stratificates into Culture this way.
      • such system creates a tree of documents over time: moving from trees to graphs is an exponential increment in complexity, and such complexity might be hard to handle (thus the next point)
      • just like algorithms that select which post you can see on Facebook, having “personalized” link sets, might limit the exchange between fields of knowledge and thus put people in segregated knowledge bubbles: this would limits global vision and useful contaminations.
      • Apart from XLink and HLink that were W3C attempts to improve the topology of the web, Trackback URIs were a practical attempt at improving the status quo. I think they were cool, but unfortunately they were also used by spammers.

      On a completely alternative history, Pike’s ACME for Plan 9 can be considered as a simple hypertext manager that you might find interesting (it’s more than an hypertext manager… but with the plumber it’s also an easy to use hypertext system).

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        Really interesting points, definitely gives me some things to think about. Thanks!