1. 4

    Why is FreeBSD moving from an Apache licensed project to a GPL licensed one?

    1. 7

      There are multiple permissively licensed git implementations, including game of trees (which is slated to replace cvs for openbsd), and git9 (by @orib, admittedly probably not easily portable outside of plan9.

      Since the format itself is not GPL’d, and the base system doesn’t need to ship with a git client, I expect it’s not considered a huge problem; and once game of trees is released it can be the officially-sanctioned client.

      1. 6

        As far as I know OpenBSD has no official plans to switch away from CVS.

        1. 1

          Am I the only one who thinks that this GPL-aversion is incredibly childish and cringe-worthy?

          Projects can be good community neighbors or bad community neighbors, and in terms of free software, they are certainly poor neighbors.

          1. 2

            One of the goals of OpenBSD is that it’s “free” as in “free to do whatever you want with it”. This is a different definition of “free” as used it the GPL. There’s nothing wrong with the GPL definition as such, but having GPL in the base system removes the OpenBSD definition of “free”, and I don’t think caring about that is either “childish” nor “cringe-worthy”.

            1. -4

              I’d love to know what’s the ideological overlap between Blue-Lives-Matter/Anti-MediaCare-For-All//Anti-Womens-Rights/… crowd and BSD devs. They certainly give off the same “screw you, got mine” vibe.

              1. 1

                lolwut? I don’t know if I should upvote this as it’s hilarious, or downvote as troll.

                1. 1

                  From my perspective as a non-US-person, these groups feel pretty close in their regressive mindset and the corporate worshiping.

                  That’s why I was curious.

                  1. 2

                    If you consider OpenBSD an act of corporate worship, you have an unusual way of thinking. I struggle to see the similarity.

                    1. 1

                      Yes, I do.

        2. 2

          There’s a good discussion of the reasoning here.

        1. 15

          Interesting project, but this marketing BS is not a good link for Lobsters. Here are the very basic questions I had about Nanos:

          • Does it descend from some pre-existing system?
          • What language is it implemented in?
          • How is it licensed?
          • Who supports its development, and what is their business model?

          To answer all but the last of these, I had to click around and find the github repo. The FAQ on this marketing site is pretty vacuous. “Syscalls: N/A” lol.

          Anyway, I think I’ll stick with https://mirage.io/ for my unikernel needs. But thanks for sharing!

          1. 5

            This site is a WIP - literally went up yesterday.

            Also, this is not intended to be a marketing site - it’s a community site. I was curious if the lobsters crowd would cast it as such but since I have seen plenty of other sites like ziglang with ‘donate now’ buttons figured one link on a community site wouldn’t be ‘marketing’.

            As for the questions:

            1. No. From the ground up it’s written in scratch - github.com/nanovms/nanos .
            2. C (mostly)
            3. Apache 2 - https://github.com/nanovms/nanos/blob/master/LICENSE
            4. NanoVMs - (the real marketing site ;)
            1. 5

              If it’s a WIP, why did you post it here?

              A donate button doesn’t make a marketing site, but there’s almost no substantial content — barely a synopsis — and it is indeed mostly trying to convince you to use it. That’s marketing.

              1. 6

                Are WIPs not allowed to be posted to Lobsters? Zig is a WIP, it’s at 0.6.0. Can we not link to a Zig release page?

                1. 5

                  No, of course it’s fine; the point is someone said “weird that this page is missing these basic things” and the author replied “the site is a WIP, it only went up yesterday” to explain why these basic things are missing. Both are talking about the site, not the software itself, because they’re talking about the submission, not the product, which is a distinction so many people in this thread can seemingly not make.

                  Lobsters is about discussing submissions, right? If you feel the need to defend your submission by saying “it’s a WIP, it only went up yesterday” when someone points out key information is missing, I don’t think you should have posted it yet. What’s the rush?

                2. 3

                  If it is not appropriate I apologize, although, I feel lobste.rs should post a guidelines document as I see a lot of links posted that have commercial links back and I can’t think of a single OSS project that is commercially supported that doesn’t have a link back.

                  Just now I found the following on lobste.rs - all that had more than one link going to a commercial post:

                  https://blog.cloudflare.com/unimog-cloudflares-edge-load-balancer/ https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/09/android11-final-release.html https://blog.ipfs.io/2020-09-08-nix-ipfs-milestone-1/

                  1. 7

                    Like I said, the donate button isn’t what matters, and the examples you’ve given serve my point: they are chock full of technical content and detail, which is what we want to see here. This submission has almost no substance.

                    1. 4

                      A new operating system and a new file system aren’t technical enough?

                      This “submission” is backed up by multiple repositories of open source code:

                      https://github.com/nanovms/nanos

                      Where is this aggression coming from?

                      1. 15

                        There’s sincerely no aggression; you’re asking about what’s appropriate and I’m doing my best to help you understand why (from my point of view) I feel this isn’t an appropriate submission. I think my opinion is at least somewhat representative of community norms based on votes. I’m not attacking you, I’m sharing my context. You don’t have to agree with my assessment.

                        The page is light on detail and mostly serves to advertise. That’s what it comes down to. I don’t think this submission adds anything. The direct repo link would always be better, or a technical detail post.

                        And yes, you posted the repo a little while ago, and that’s okay. If there’s a new release, link to the patch notes instead. Reposting the same link isn’t forbidden either, especially if there’s been big changes.

                        1. -4

                          I think a lot of people would find these comments aggressive - maybe you can disclose your real name and who you work for. :) (That’s ok, you don’t have to.)

                          You are most definitely correct that it does to advertise the community aspect of the operating system. I’m sorry if you are looking for a corporate only POV. I won’t advertise it here but you can easily find it.

                          I’m glad you don’t find patch notes offensive - I’d find any patch notes offensive that are offensive. Nanos.org is a brand new site so sorry no new changes.

                          1. 14

                            I actually found your comments to be on the aggressive side, while others tried to explain their views on why your post is flagged. And the length of their posts implies it’s a sincere efforts.

                            1. 10

                              maybe you can disclose your real name and who you work for.

                              This is in bad faith. Additionally, my real name and employer are trivial to locate. I really think you should reevaluate your angle here.

                              I’m sorry if you are looking for a corporate only POV.

                              I have to believe you’re being intentionally obtuse in light of my suggesting “the direct repo link” or “a technical detail post”. I’ve really tried only to be kind in my comments here and represent my views to get to a shared understanding with you, but you seem to consistently engage in hostility and points raised while further stirring things up.

                          2. 4

                            Where is this aggression coming from?

                            There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I think absolutely nobody is objecting to submitting Nanos, that would be ridiculous. People are objecting (although I disagree) to submitting the URL https://nanos.org/, instead of (more relevant) URL https://github.com/nanovms/nanos.

                            I hope this makes things clear.

                            1. 1

                              The nanos.org website, is strictly for providing a place for the community to place a voice outside of the company. One of the reasons of having a community site was to move a lot of knowledge that was in engineers heads to the community in the hopes that it would not be lost.

                              The very fact that it is a .org and not a .com, should be painfully clear but in 2020 I realize that is just not something that works with everyone.

                              Just as kernel.org is an .org, yet retains logos from Fastly, Packet, Redhat, Google and many others, nanos.org is an open source site with source code found elsewhere.

                              Is this such a problem?

                              1. 5

                                Submitting a site structured like kernel.org would indeed meet some annoyance, because there is nothing to read on this page, and not clear which of the links you considered most worth following. You could pick one previously unposted of the many pages you have mentioned with technical substance and say in the comments that «We are currently working on building a community site on nanos.org and making the linked material available (or updating it) was a part of that work». That would look in a different way.

                                Note that a page that looks like a pure advertisement for a community is still pure advertisement, even if of a slightly different kind compared to commercial advertisement.

                                I guess you could imagine the following imaginary (or is it?) use case for Lobste.rs: automatically download the linked articles and separately comments automatically and read them offline. If changing what you link to and mentioning the original link in the first comment would increase the value for such a use case and not clearly decrease the value for the more typical use, it is likely that such a replacement would also improve the reception here.

                                1. 0

                                  Submitting a site structured like kernel.org would indeed meet some annoyance

                                  Are you kidding me?

                                  I guess I was wrong in posting a free/open source community based website to lobste.rs - I’ll refrain from that in the future. So much hostility.

                                  1. 3

                                    Strictly speaking, you were submitting a page, submissions are not really read as sites — there are surely many good pages on your site to submit.

                                    1. 1

                                      I still don’t understand the frustration here. Is the main page not the most direct way to announce a public free open source tool that did not have it before?

                                      If you had never heard of rust before aside from a few coworkers chatting about it and rust-lang.org didn’t exist but then it pops out of existence you wouldn’t find it appropriate to post?

                                      1. 5

                                        rust-lang.org goes in somewhat more details than the current state of nanos.org, and I guess a more detailed page about what choices Rust makes would be a better choice than the main page.

                                        Many of us want to click the link and find a page containing a text about something technical that directly convinces us to care. Currently nanos.org tells me «Nanos is a unikernel» and nothing else (sure, almost every unikernel will mention that avoiding context switches will improve performance in read()-bottlenecked tests), then there are some links. I can easily understand people preferring to get a submission where the main link goes to a substantial text, not to a place where you need to find out which link to click to get the text. (I personally did not flag this submission, though)

                                        1. 2

                                          I 100% agree there should be more detailed documentation and there most definitely will be, it’s a work in progress.

                                          I suppose all the frustration can be summed up with “come back when there is X bytes of technical documentation and link to that rather than the front page”. Noted.

                            2. 3

                              Literally nothing about the link you used for the submission is technical at all. It’s a marketing splash page.

                              1. 1

                                Literally? Nothing?

                                https://nanos.org/thebook isn’t technical at all? After one day? With links to pull requests of code? and binary serialization formats for a non extX filesystem?

                                Please.

                                1. 5

                                  Then why didn’t you link to the book? Remember, I said the link you used for the submission.

                                  1. 2

                                    It’s a link from the main site…

                    2. 5

                      Anyway, I think I’ll stick with https://mirage.io/ for my unikernel needs.

                      I only just looked into this stuff but… all of MirageOS’s peers are dead. So I think I welcome anyone new in the space. We need progress and competition!!!

                      1. 3

                        Good point, but it perhaps says something about the unikernel concept itself and how it’s played out in practice. Overall, I agree, and I’m happy to see Other People’s Money being spent on a technical subject I personally find interesting. I sincerely wish the nanos folks all kinds of success.

                        At the same time, I must admit to having some doubts about the wisdom of implementing a unikernel with a completely fresh code base in a famously unsafe language, but hey, I guess we’ll see how it plays out.

                        1. 2

                          The money point is important to point out. It’s not something you can just whip together in a weekend and not something I could see happening without lots of $$ to employ full time engineers on. Even then the difference between hello world and production usability is a huge gulf to cross - most teams unfortunately die before they can cross it. That in my most humble opinion is the biggest problem in the ecosystem. Government grants can only take you so far.

                          I hear your complaint against c. We’ve discussed doing other complementary projects in rust but the pkg/dep system is a major turn off and none of our engineers speak rust either other than hello world projects. Likewise $$ again is a prime concern for working in that ecosystem. When you have tiny little saas companies that raise tens of millions and employ tens to hundreds of software engineers you have to ask what is the true cost of a new language or a new operating system?

                          1. 2

                            All very cogent points, and be it far from me to armchair-quarterback anyone’s business strategy. Application support is probably the first priority for a real-world unikernel, and that drags in legacy APIs and other ecosystem factors that we can’t really control. Latent security problems only become critical when you actually have some customers.

                            I’ve had a corner of an eye on this space for a little while, but I wouldn’t claim any expertise. To me, it seems like Mirage has carved out a bit of a niche and, like many open source projects, is sort of puttering along just fine with little in the way of sponsorship. But its adoption is of course limited to the (relatively tiny) Ocaml ecosystem. Then there’s the rump kernel approach, which largely piggybacks on NetBSD’s flexibility and mature-ish code base. Looks like there’s some consultancies promoting that. Probably works great for some applications. Doesn’t appear to need VC, at a glance.

                            The only unikernel I have had any real first-hand experience with is HalVM. I can assure our readers that no realistic amount of government grants or eager first customers could have saved it from drowning in its own space leaks. Haskell itself is largely subsidized by the academic tenure system, and is thus well insulated from its own practical failings, but that’s another story entirely.

                            1. 2

                              Agree with most of this, however, Antti spent something like well over a decade fleshing out rump - and that was on top of netbsd which was forked 27 years ago so I wouldn’t agree that the ecosystem doesn’t need financial resources. The EU is trying to pump some money into the ecosystem thankfully. There indeed are a few consultancies but they tend to come and go (again lack of resources) - I keep a running list.

                          2. 1

                            in a famously unsafe language

                            Oof. I only just noticed it’s in C. Okay, I’ll root for it, but hopefully they’re making up for that handicap.

                        2. 1

                          This community has become so fucking toxic! It’s really sad that I now no longer enjoy reading the comments. I use to come here for the fun technical discussions. But once again the internet has ruined another great website. jcs should have kept everything invite only and small. No wonder he gave up and walked away…

                          1. 2

                            I think what you’re witnessing is the site adjusting to a course correction toward its original purpose. A few people were making a push toward getting more ‘culture’ related content on the front page, and that’s not what this site has ever been about. Some folks have been pushing back.

                            Fortunately, in the last few months I’ve seen more interesting material hitting the front page than in recent years, and the comments are still well worth exploring (in those threads). Anything resembling “toxicity” comes in ‘culture’ tagged articles.

                        1. 25

                          Safari is a joke.

                          Why? Personally I use it a lot and I really like it. Moreover WebKit wouldn’t exist without Safari, and Chrome was forked from WebKit. Back in the time, even IE wasn’t a joke and killed NetScape. Could you elaborate?

                          1. 15

                            I’m a bit puzzled by this statement as well. The most heard criticism for Safari is that it’s slow to implement new features, if it implements them at all. Given the rest of the article, it’s safe to assume that the author doesn’t share in this criticism.

                            1. 9

                              It’s a funny statement as Safari actually will not implement 16 Web API’s due to privacy/tracking concerns. So they aren’t adding the bloat which Drew complains about ;-)

                              1. 3

                                It was my preferred browser on Mac too. You can disable tabs with it, which is pretty much impossible in Firefox or chrome now.

                                1. 3

                                  WebKit wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for KDE and KHTML. We can thank Apple and now Google for creating forks that just fragment the community.

                                1. 20

                                  Original designer of the Atreus here; ask me anything.

                                  1. 2

                                    Do you know if it’s possible to configure the Keyboardio Atreus firmware on OpenBSD? And if it’s possible to set up layers similar to the Planck keyboard?

                                    1. 5

                                      And if it’s possible to set up layers similar to the Planck keyboard?

                                      Yep, definitely. You can create as many layers as you like, up to 64 or so I think? Layers can be momentary (only active while a key is held) or modal, where they stay until another key is pressed to deactivate it.

                                      Do you know if it’s possible to configure the Keyboardio Atreus firmware on OpenBSD?

                                      I’m not sure whether Chrysalis (the GUI frontend for the Keyboardio firmware config) will work on OpenBSD; it unfortunately depends on Electron which isn’t that portable. However, if you can run the Arduino toolchain on OpenBSD (I think this is pretty portable? but I haven’t looked into it) then you should be able to build the firmware from source, making your layout changes in your text editor of choice: https://github.com/keyboardio/Kaleidoscope/blob/master/examples/Devices/Keyboardio/Atreus/Atreus.ino#L61 (This is how I build it; I like to be able to keep my layouts in source control.)

                                      If that doesn’t work you can configure it with QMK, (a different yet compatible firmware codebase) which only depends on GCC and avrdude: https://qmk.fm/

                                      1. 2

                                        So, after a bit more digging - the out of the box Kaleidoscope stuff is a bit tricky to build (I haven’t done so successfully yet.). Here is what I found:

                                        • Kaleidoscope needs arduino-builder which is a Go project. Normally this is fine, but a few libs arduino-builder uses are at versions that don’t support OpenBSD or flat out don’t support it (addressed one of them here, but likely there are others).
                                        • There are a few packages in arduino-builder that try to grab os-specific things. Those thing’s don’t exist for OpenBSD, so that bit needs more investigating.
                                      2. 3

                                        I regularly flash my ergodox from OpenBSD (teensy 2 - using devel/teensyloader) - avrdude is also available, and should be able to flash the ATmega32U4 just fine!

                                        1. 3

                                          Sorry, just realized you said “configure”! I’ll look into it :D (I have a Atreus on the way at some point). As a side note, we recently imported Microscheme into the ports tree, and I know that can be used to configure the OG Atreus.

                                          1. 4

                                            That’s so cool to hear Microscheme is being packaged! I’m looking forward to digging back into that some time soon.

                                            Edit: The Microscheme firmware right now only works with the Classic Atreus, but it would be like 10-20 minutes of work to update it to work with the new Keyboardio one.

                                            1. 4

                                              I have my own fork of said firmware that is tailored to be more OpenBSD friendly which I run on my classic Atreus. You can find it here: https://github.com/jturner/menelaus

                                        2. 1

                                          Yet another new keyboard that doesn’t include the function keys.

                                          I know you can really only speak for yourself, but why are so many new designers doing this?

                                          1. 2

                                            I know you can really only speak for yourself, but why are so many new designers doing this?

                                            I don’t find them to be useful, and I guess others don’t either.

                                            For decades you could only buy keyboards that had function keys, regardless of whether you found them useful. We’re only just now getting to the point where you have the choice to buy a design that actually fits the way you personally use your keyboard. For me it’s like a breath of fresh air.

                                        1. 1

                                          How are they promoting this? I don’t see anything on the FreeBSD or Foundation website…

                                            1. 2

                                              Thanks, I see it’s also on the FreeBSD homepage now as well.

                                          1. 2

                                            With the new bootstrap tarball does this increase the chance of Zig supporting OpenBSD?

                                            1. 2

                                              It’d be interesting to see Dragonfly BSD’s results.

                                              As Dragonfly forked freebsd and diverged mainly on the issue of how to do SMP.

                                              1. 5

                                                According to the article, Dragonfly didn’t even successfully boot.

                                                1. 2

                                                  Too bad. It means we’ll have to wait further to see results.

                                                  As far as I am aware Matt favors Ryzen/TR CPUs and has done a lot of enablement work, so I’d be optimistic.

                                              1. 2

                                                This sounds interesting. I wonder if the talks will be recorded and published?

                                                1. 8

                                                  We should have recordings.

                                                  1. 6

                                                    Talks will be recorded, and posted on the site

                                                    1. 3

                                                      read the announcement twice, and missed that. sorry.

                                                  1. 4

                                                    Press release, flagged.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      Since when are announcement articles for new products/companies/software not allowed? I love how this community has gone from something amazing jcs@ created to a complete comment and flagging shit show over the years!

                                                      1. 5

                                                        Sorry you feel that way.

                                                        Unfortunately, since the site’s founding a lot has happened in growth hacking techniques and norms. Given the slow pace of the Lobsters frontpage as well as the valuable eyeballs we currently attract, we would be extremely naïve to encourage indiscriminate posting of low-content press releases here lest we get overrun as has happened to other sites.

                                                        This is somebody talking about moving out of their garage, and then plugging a careers page. The person who wrote it–or who wrote the other article that @gerikson mentions–didn’t submit it here, so it isn’t even really an invitation for discussion. Like, a show thing from @bcantrill would be slightly different.

                                                        1. 1

                                                          Think it depends a little. Because I’ve loosely followed that the people involved have been doing over the years this is interesting to me, because I have benefited from their work in the past.

                                                          If I didn’t know who the people were, I’d probably not be interested. But I wouldn’t flag it, just ignore it.

                                                      1. 14

                                                        I don’t like the name. How about “Beginner’s All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code”?

                                                        1. 3

                                                          This language is similar to BASIC and has many features of it, but also many differences. And I like BASIC.

                                                          1. 2

                                                            Please, elaborate on the differences.

                                                            1. 8

                                                              Arrays have square brackets and start at 0, no GOTOs, blocks end with “end” or with a dot. Variables are integers by default. Functions work differently …

                                                              There is the Python-like “for range”, which fits better to 0-based arrays. The syntax is generally shorter.

                                                          2. 0

                                                            Clearly since you don’t like the name the author should change it!

                                                            1. 6

                                                              Clearly convincing the author to change the name wasn’t my intention. Maybe you didn’t get it, the OP did.

                                                          1. 9

                                                            Wow another “world’s” something or other Docker build…

                                                            1. 1

                                                              This is great, would love to see some code once you consider things ready for a wider audience. I’d be curious to know if this is written in Lua or Go considering your recent rewrite everything in Go post.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                It’s in go.

                                                              1. 7

                                                                Summary: Nick Cameron is a research engineer at Mozilla working on Rust: tools, the language, and compiler. He is leaving Mozilla - the article makes it sound like he has another opportunity that he is going to pursue. Steve Klabnik has also left the Rust team recently, though it sounds like this was for different reasons.

                                                                  1. 3

                                                                    I’ll also get a chance to use Rust ‘in real life’. It’s hard to describe why that is a big deal for me; I’ve been programming in Rust pretty much daily for the last five years and writing real programs (and some pretty damn interesting ones too). But it feels cool to use it ‘on the outside’ after being ‘on the inside’ for so long. Especially in a project which is well-suited and committed to Rust.

                                                                    It makes me smile to know that even Rust core team members are excited to have an opportunity to use Rust in production :)

                                                                1. 3

                                                                  What no pictures!

                                                                  1. 7

                                                                    I’ll add some shortly :D

                                                                    Edit: Added some pictures!

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      I like the the built-in camera cover, very nice feature (and laptop.)

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    What wifi USB dongle is that? Also, what chipset does it use?

                                                                    I currently use an Intel NUC for my desktop and almost nothing except Ubuntu carries drivers for the wifi in the installation media. I’d also like to GNU Guix which doesn’t include Intel wireless drivers at all.

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      He mentions the chipset lower in the article. It’s a RTL8188CUS.

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        Yep, as jturner said, sorry if it wasn’t obvious.

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      Serious question: As someone whose never used ed but uses vim on a daily basis, is it worth learning ed? I’m not a regex master by any means but I feel like I grok them enough that I wouldn’t want to learn ed as a way to get better at regexes (emphasized in the description).

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        No, I don’t think learning ed will make you better at regexes. For me it’s helpful to know if you ever find yourself in an environment where you don’t have access to other tools like vi. Ie, the OpenBSD install media or possible single user mode on some gnu/linux distro.

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        Just bought my copy!

                                                                        1. 4

                                                                          No, but I’d like to have a working CLI mail client, even just to check and mark as read.

                                                                          I use multiple accounts (university and Gmail), how do neomutt works with this kind of workload?

                                                                          Do I have to setup a MTA?

                                                                          Since most email are (sadly) html, how could I read these?

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            I normally use Mutt with multiple accounts. There are several ways you can set that up, and a lot of them are decently documented. I use something very similar to this.

                                                                            It’s not necessary to run your own MTA; I use Mutt’s built-in SMTP support with multiple GMail accounts with no issues.

                                                                            Most of the people and services I communicate with send a plaintext version of the email alongside the HTML version, so I have a lot less HTML trouble than expected. However, for HTML-only email, the best option I could find is to save the HTML file to the disk and use a web browser to read it. It should be fairly easy to create a macro for that in Mutt.

                                                                            1. 4

                                                                              I have a .mailcap file setup with the below. It does a pretty good job letting me view what I need from HTML emails. text/html; lynx -dump %s; copiousoutput; nametemplate=%s.html

                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                Thank you for your the inputs, I’ll check out (neo) mutt as soon as possible.

                                                                            1. 1

                                                                              $39 is a com­pletely fair price for your new knowl­edge, and com­pa­ra­ble to what you’d pay for a printed book.

                                                                              Any plans on having a printed book for sale? I’d be willing to this if I got a hardbound brick to sit on my desk.

                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                Check out the “About the Author” page.

                                                                                Do you plan to release this book as a paper­back? No.