1. 3

    The EV cert requirement makes no sense to me. The image isn’t stored in the cert, it’s DNS+HTTPS. Could work fine with any cert.

    1. 1

      I agree, the EV certificate is a showstopper.

      1. 1

        The problem is that anyone can set their own DNS+HTTPS to serve a PayPal-looking logo. It needs a human to say “no, this logo looks misleading, it’s not yours”.

        1. 2

          EV never worked to prevent this, though. Major browsers all either have dropped or are in the process of dropping any special address-bar indicator of EV cert, precisely because it didn’t help and the workarounds were always trivial anyway – everything from stolen identity documents (no obstacle for someone already committed to a criminal enterprise), to just straight-up registering a throwaway business somewhere (which was Ian Carroll’s infamous example; he registered a new company in Kentucky under the name “Stripe, Inc.”) can get you an EV cert.

          1. 1

            I think this time it’s substantially different to give it another shot:

            • It’s a familiar logo in a prominent location in a relatively uncluttered list that user actively clicks on. That’s different than a slightly different flavor of a padlock, displayed passively out of the view, next to spoofable favicons, between half a dozen of other gadgets.

            • It’s riding the trademark law. Companies know how to zealously defend that. Apple sues companies with a pear in their logo.

            There’s still the jurisdiction loophole, which sucks. But at least trademarks are per country, not per state. Maybe they could require either a more widely registered trademarks, or e-mail clients could be smart enough to display the logo only when the user’s country is within trademark’s jurisdiction. This is another advantage over company registration: you can have company registered in one place and trade world-wide, but you’re supposed to have your trademark registered everywhere you trade.

          2. 1

            Yes, but… the logo is not in the EV cert. So even if they check the DNS record and URL before giving out the cert (unlikely, since it’s an unrelated spec) you could just change the logo image after you get the cert.

            1. 3

              The article omits this, but the BIMI spec does have a Mark Verified Certificate that validates the image itself. I hope nobody is going to deploy this without verifying the cert, as otherwise that’d be nothing but a complicated favicon.

              1. 1

                Would you happen to have a link to the format (or just a sample) of a Mark Verified Certificate? I spent a few minutes casting around for one and could only find press releases from CAs harboring ambitions of issuing them or unlinked references that weren’t specific enough for me to find a draft in the IETF. The descriptions I did find left me a little uncertain whether the artifacts for relying parties would actually carry the logo itself as opposed to a URL controlled by the entity that is being certified.

        1. 2

          Not to be confused with the Pike programming language: https://pike.lysator.liu.se/

          1. 4

            Pike is based on LPC, which you might have used if you were a creator / wizard / admin on an LPmud. I believe there’s some kind of continuity in development too; the lysator.liu.se domain hosted a lot of MUD content.

            1. 2

              Wow, that takes me back! Roxen AB, one of the backers of Pike, is named after the lake and apparently pike can be fished there.

            1. 4

              One of the images says armv7l, which is a 32bit architecture. The RPi400 itself is 64bit. Can I get and install a 64bit OS on the device?

              1. 4

                Yes. For weird historical reasons, the default Rasbian OS claims to be 32-bit, but the CPU is a 64-bit ARM. You can install stock 64-bit Debian or Ubuntu on it if yo want, or any of a bunch of other OSes.

                1. 2

                  What I really would like is to have ArchLinux as the OS.

                  I have a traditional RPi4 running ArchLinuxARM, and /proc/cpuinfo says “model name: ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l)”. However, it also says “Hardware: BCM2711”, which is listed under ARMv8: https://archlinuxarm.org/platforms/armv8/broadcom/raspberry-pi-4

                  So should I be able to use the ARMv8 image for the RPi 400 (and my traditional RPi, provided I had the spoons to reinstall everything)?

                  edit: typo

                  1. 2

                    Grab a fresh SD card & try it out? It ought to work, but I’ve never tried Arch.

                    1. 1

                      Good idea. Thanks!

                    2. 2

                      I too love Arch Linux. I’ve never run it on the Pi, however. I’m going to download and burn a copy of it and try it out next week. I will probably write about it as well.

                      1. 1

                        I’d love to hear about it. :)

                1. 5

                  Albert Einstein’s Theory of Relativity — In Words of Four Letters or Less ⌘ https://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/txt/al.html

                  1. 2

                    That is awesome. I don’t know how understandable it would be to someone without background knowledge in physics. But very impressive how much they were able to explain.

                    1. 2

                      That essay is very similar in philosophy to the Gödel-proof description mentioned in the article. Like Evans points out, it’s mostly written for people who already know what Gödel’s proof is. My essay has the advantage of being about Einstein’s relativity – a lot more people have a vague idea what relativity is, at least. (And of course it’s much longer than the Gödel essay. I actually started out intending it to be shorter, but I really did want to try to explain the ideas behind relativity, and so it wound up getting longer and longer.)

                      1. 2

                        Back in 2011 I created an ebook out of the webpages so that I could read the essay on my ereader:

                        To be honest, I cannot remember how successful the conversion was.

                        They weren’t meant for public consumption, but now that you’re here…

                    1. 10

                      There is already another “extended dump [and load]” program called xd out there: https://www.fourmilab.ch/xd/

                        1. 14

                          Yes, but it’s not written in Rust so the new utility automatically takes precedence /s.

                          1. 2

                            🤣

                          2. 5

                            You should let the author know!

                              1. 2

                                Awesome!

                            1. 6

                              I wish people writing utilities would not be so arrogant as to assume their utility is so important as to warrant taking a two-letter command name. There’s only one namespace for commands. Leave the shortest names for user’s own aliases.

                              1. 2

                                Leave the shortest names

                                One character names?

                                1. 3

                                  Zero character. Not sure if there’s only one of them, none of them, or an infinite number.

                                2. 1

                                  I agree. However, a command may have started as a personal command that has then become public.

                                  Still, the author of the xd thing announced here should have done their homework and searched the interwebs for commands of the same name.

                              1. 1

                                Could

                                #!/usr/bin/env -S /long/path/to/real/interpreter with many arguments
                                

                                be a solution if their env implementation accepts the -S switch?

                                1. 1

                                  env -S allows many arguments, yes, but the OS will still truncate that line at the max shebang limit. So if /long/path/to/real/interpreter is very long (> 127 chars is the total line length limit on Linux), you will miss all the arguments and possibly part of the interpreter path. See https://www.in-ulm.de/~mascheck/various/shebang/ for lots of details and https://lwn.net/Articles/779997/ for an interesting story on nix and long shebangs.

                                  1. 1

                                    Whauw, 127 characters is not a lot.

                                    Thanks for the interesting links!

                                1. 2

                                  Neon source code is case sensitive

                                  I’m sorry, but that alone is enough for me to not dive deeper into the language: the mixture of all-uppercase, all-lowercase, and “title case” looks like it’s asking to be a PITA.

                                  1. 1

                                    Don’t you mean case-insensitive?

                                    1. 3

                                      I didn’t mean anything, I was quoting from the docs: »Neon source code is case sensitive«.

                                      See e.g. https://neon-lang.dev/docs/overview.html

                                      4.1 General

                                      All identifiers are case sensitive. Language defined keywords are all upper case.

                                      And then we have types. Most of them must be title cased:

                                      Boolean

                                      Number

                                      String

                                      Bytes

                                      But it would be too easy if all om them were title cased, so there’s

                                      RECORD

                                      CLASS

                                      mentioned together with two title cased types in section 4.2.

                                      And function names seems to be lower case.

                                      That’s not something I would like to teach to neophytes.

                                      1. 2

                                        Yes, agree on that.

                                        I wonder why these languages are so … not sure … I’m always thinking “they are learners, not dumb” when I see such “pedagogical” languages.

                                  1. 3

                                    Please get a TLS certificate and serve this over https.

                                    1. 8

                                      TBH i get it when people don’t want to set up HTTPS for every server. I’ve had issues with TLS in the past, that even broke domain names, because of some minor mistakes here and there.

                                      1. 5

                                        “Minor mistakes here and there” is an opportunity to learn. Now that we have Let’s Encrypt, there are only few excuses to not provide secure connections everywhere.

                                        Personally, I have mostly stopped visiting websites that offer insecure http only.

                                        1. 3

                                          I’m talking about Let’s Encrypt, I wouldn’t have never set TLS up if it weren’t for free.

                                          Personally, I have mostly stopped visiting websites that offer insecure http only.

                                          I don’t get why? What’s the problem, especially if it’s a personal or a hobby site? No accouts, no important data, nothing to care about.

                                          1. 2

                                            I live in a country where the government is spying on its citizens and is logging all data connections.

                                            1. 2

                                              Denmark?

                                              1. 2

                                                Yes, Denmark.

                                            2. 1

                                              Private entities in the United States (e.g. your hotel, that hotspot you used over coffee) often make use of user data to further solicit commercial transactions. I’d take it as a fun excuse to play with Let’s Encrypt – or to see if you can get your CA to issue you a domain-validated certificate backed by an 8192-bit key (higher is probably possible, but it sacrifices compatibility and it a bit too absurd even for me).

                                            3. 3

                                              Personally, I have mostly stopped visiting websites that offer insecure http only.

                                              Well I guess if you’re not visiting the site your opinion doesn’t really count for much. There are reasons to support HTTP, and reasons not to use HTTPS. Just because they might not apply to you doesn’t mean they don’t apply to the person creating the content. Nobody owes you a HTTPS connection.

                                              1. 4

                                                True, I’m just stating my preferences and asking nicely.

                                            4. 1

                                              I agree, TLS is often a huge barrier for someone, e.g. whose device clock is not set.

                                              I don’t think it is always necessary for just reading text.

                                              If your ISP is MITMing you to the extent that this is an issue, you’ve got bigger problems.

                                            5. 5

                                              Yah, no, why?

                                              I mean, the spec for twtxt doesn’t require https. Non-modern computer systems can’t use https, stuff like plan9 and such.

                                              Why is it important that this be put over https? Why not comment on the spec, or on the implementation of the site, or pretty much anything to do with the OP than this load of nonsense.

                                              Seriously, this comment is like something you’d see on /. or HN.

                                              1. 1

                                                Chill, man. For reasons that I have already made clear in this thread I have a strong preference for encrypted connections, and all I did was asking nicely for https. That’s a comment that is just as valid as if I’d commented the CSS or on the concept of aggregation, and implementing https doesn’t necessarily remove http, so if people wish to connect over an insecure connection they can do so, the opposite is not true: if https is unavailable, you cannot choose it.

                                                I’ve been on twtxt for more that three years and the site mentioned is not a new one. I’m not a big fan of these aggregation sites: They keep obsolete feeds around and put a burden on the publisher of the original individual twtxt streams to update them or have them removed.

                                            1. 5

                                              On my wishlist: A way to block all the bloody “Subscribe to my spiffy mailinglist”-popups that has infested the web.

                                              1. 2

                                                Big same. I was working on a browser plugin to turn position:fixed/etc elements into display:none, but it ran into a wall of

                                                1. literally the first wild website I tested it on hit an infinite loop
                                                2. javascript permission errors when trying to introspect style sheets

                                                I suspect dealing with it robustly would require hacking up the browser renderer itself.

                                                1. 2

                                                  The No, Thanks extension gets rid of some of them. Enough that I’m willing to pay its subscription fee because those stupid things make my blood boil, but it still misses a bunch.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    Thanks, I’ll give it a spin.

                                                  2. 1

                                                    The unfortunate reality is that they work. I remember reading, I think, Andrew Chen (A16Z) who mentioned that he feels sorry for these popups but he has to keep them on his blog since they work.

                                                    1. 3

                                                      Andrew Chen doesn’t have to have these annoying popups on his blog, he could perfectly well choose to have a button or a link. Truth is that he chose the annoying popups because he values the number of subscriptions more than the wellbeing of his audience.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Do you have the source / data for the that? I’m not even sure how you’d measure how well they work. I assume you’d have to do some A/B testing, but while you can measure the number of people who sign up for your newsletter, and possibly even track whether the emails cause them to come back to your blog, you can’t measure the people who are unimpressed or get annoyed and don’t come back or recommend your blog to others.

                                                    1. 2

                                                      I’m currently looking into TiddlyWiki + Stroll + markdown plugin for this.

                                                      1. 2

                                                        I can vouch for TiddlyWiki + Stroll!

                                                      1. 3

                                                        Another good surce on breathing is “Breath” by James Nestor: https://www.mrjamesnestor.com/breath/ He swears by 5.5 seconds inhales and exhales, but the half second hardly makes a significant difference in results.

                                                        1. 3

                                                          Thanks! This book about 5.5 seconds actually prompted me to start researching this topic. When I started digging in using Semantic Scholar and Google Scholar I noticed 0.1Hz show up again and again. It was only after I thought “uhh 0.1Hz…once every ten seconds. Does that mean 5 seconds in 5 seconds out? Or 10 seconds in 10 seconds out? Oh it’s 5” did I realize I was substantiating the same idea.

                                                          1. 2

                                                            Yes, the frequency is per entire cycle.

                                                            The breathing method you describe says “Inhale as deeply as you can.” This differs significantly from that of Nestor, who does want us to exhale more than normally, but his inhale is relaxed and doesn’t fill the lungs completely (if I have understood his book correctly).

                                                            1. 2

                                                              I will read Nestor’s book! I’m curious about their suggested method and the research behind it. Thank you for clarifying the differences between the book and my article.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                Nestor’s default breathing is 5.5 seconds inhale + 5.5 seconds exhale, with a total flux of 5.5 litres of air per minute. However, his book covers a wide range of breathing methods and their benefits, and there is an appendix that summarizes the breathing methods.

                                                                If what Nestor writes is true, it is completely redefining almost everything I thought I knew about breathing, and answers some long-held questions I’ve had. Now I’ll have to put it to a test for a couple of months and see if I reap any benefits.

                                                        1. 13

                                                          One of the Factor devs here. Feel free to ask any questions you might have, and I’ll do my best to answer.

                                                          1. 6

                                                            What do you think is the over arching goal for factor? Were you trying to solve a particular problem which was not solved well by other languages?

                                                            1. 9

                                                              I’m not the inventor, so I wasn’t trying to solve any particular problem as such. I just really liked what I saw.

                                                              For me, Factor provides a sweet spot of easy and very powerful metaprogramming, a simple runtime, and incredible introspectability. The feel of doing development in it is somewhere near a Lisp Machine, since all objects have graphical representations, you have a full REPL with compiler the entire time, and yet you still compile down to fully native code at all times. This makes doing incremental development extremely easy, and I think the amazingly rich standard library and GUI toolkit (for a language with its user base, at least!) speaks to its productivity. And unlike, say, Pharo/Squeak Smalltalk (an old haunt of mine), it uses normal text files for code, so I can use traditional tooling like Git and GitHub to manage development.

                                                              These days, I write a lot less in Factor. Most of that’s due to real life taking precedence as I get older, some of that’s due to other languages closing the gap quite a bit. (Things like Jupyter, or Swift Playgrounds, did not exist when Factor was created, for example.) But Factor remains my preferred environment when I’m trying to learn a new concept or explore a domain I’m not terribly familiar with. Most recently, I had a blast using it for Cryptopals, for example.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                These days, I write a lot less in Factor. Most of that’s due to real life taking precedence as I get older, some of that’s due to other languages closing the gap quite a bit. (Things like Jupyter, or Swift Playgrounds, did not exist when Factor was created, for example.) But Factor remains my preferred environment when I’m trying to learn a new concept or explore a domain I’m not terribly familiar with. Most recently, I had a blast using it for Cryptopals, for example.

                                                                Not to make light of anyone’s excellent work, but whenever I’ve explored Factor this matches what I’ve seen. The community was incredibly vibrant and active a few years back, but recently activity seems to have really fallen off across the board.

                                                                Am I mis-perceiving things or are you not alone in having moved on in some respects to other languages and environments?

                                                                1. 5

                                                                  Eh, it’s mixed. Yes, things have slowed down: Slava left, the company using Factor commercially folded, and a lot of us (such as me) have kids and stuff that make coding for fun harder.

                                                                  On the other hand, there’s actually a lot of work going on (largely driven by @erg) to make the syntax and runtime a bit more standardized, there have been a number of library improvements from Alexander Iljin, when people have needed more libraries they’ve added them, and so on. If you look at the core repo, you’ll see there honestly been a tremendous amount of activity since the last release. Sure, the pace may be slower, but it’s steady.

                                                                  In other words: I don’t think development has stalled, but I think it’s stabilized. For me, that’s great: Factor’s library grows and its stability improves, but things are generally where I left them. I know that same kind of things draws a lot of people to the Common Lisps as well, which also have a slower churn rate.

                                                                  1. 2

                                                                    I guess I was referring less to the language itself than to the ecosystem around it - blog posts and the like. But you’re right, none of this is an actual measure of a project or community.

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      Blog posts are definitely down, but the mailing list is still quite active. I think it depends a bit where you look. But yes, I hear your point.

                                                            2. 3

                                                              Factor is a dynamic language and that makes sense to me: You have values on the stack that know their own types. When you are going to use a value, you check it’s type.

                                                              How do you think a statically typed concatenative language would look? My intuition is that it would be like a reduce operation over all of words in the program. I think I’m a bit hung up due to the lack of formal parameters.

                                                              1. 4

                                                                How do you think a statically typed concatenative language would look?

                                                                Probably exactly like our (optional) static typing. Do note that the compiler could do a lot more than it currently does for optimizations, but you can play with optimized. to see what it’s able to pull off. For even relatively complex cases that involve fixnums, it can basically do ops on straight machine words.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  That is neat! Is it used a lot in practice?

                                                                  How is the data stack implemented in Factor? Is it just an array of pointers? Or does it use the top bits to determine the types? Tried looking at the repo, but wasn’t sure what file it might be in…

                                                                2. 3

                                                                  There was also cat from Diggins and Kleffners thesis

                                                                3. 2

                                                                  On the “See some example programs” page, the example program links all give me a 502 error.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    Can the REPL run in a console? I installed the factor package from AUR, and factor-vm seems to only be able to open its own graphical window.

                                                                    1. 3

                                                                      I can’t speak to whatever Arch is doing, but I just double-checked that plain factor on my box kicks off a command-line REPL, so I’m not sure what’s going on with their package.

                                                                      That said, I would strongly discourage using the vanilla command-line REPL; you’re missing so much awesomeness. If you really badly want to use a terminal for whatever reason, I would strongly suggest at least using FUEL (our SLIME workalike) in Emacs.

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        ArchLinux doesn’t install a plain factor (perhaps because the name collides with the factor binary from the coreutils package). There is /usr/bin/factor-vm which is a symlink to /usr/lib/factor/factor. The latter also opens a GUI thing, but I just found out I could factor-vm -run=listener to get a TTY thing, so that’s cool.

                                                                        Thanks.

                                                                        1. 3

                                                                          That’s exactly the reason why the factor binary is renamed in the package. Source: Arch Linux packager here.

                                                                          It is kinda sad that there hasn’t been any new releases in years, so if you want to have the new features you’re better off with factor-git.

                                                                          1. 1

                                                                            Thanks, I’ll switch to factor-git.

                                                                            1. 1

                                                                              I’m not thrilled with that, but there’s an (in my opinion, wrong) attitude that our next release needs to be Perfect™, which means it’s forever delayed. The good news is, as you said and @kas is now doing, that Git is honestly quite stable, so that’s probably the route most people should go for now.

                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                I think cutting a release would also send out a signal that Factor is not dead. I can confirm that git is quite stable so maybe there could be a point where tagging a new release might make sense.

                                                                                In any case, thanks for maintaining Factor. I’m not actively using it any more but honestly due to the whole environment and community this was the most fun learning a programming language I’ve ever had, especially a completely different paradigm.

                                                                      2. 1

                                                                        How related is concatenative programming related to array programming (APL)? I feel that some of the concatenative combinators seem familiar to transformers in Nial

                                                                      1. 4

                                                                        Last commit was 3 years ago, has the project been abandoned?

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          Yes, it looks like so: it is archived by the author. The size and structure of the project makes it rather affordable to maintain alog with the software using it though.

                                                                        1. 6

                                                                          I’ve been running a gopher server for several years now. Is anyone else here running a gopher server?

                                                                          1. 7

                                                                            I do, but the Gemini protocol is more appealing to me: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/

                                                                            1. 3

                                                                              I also run a Gemini server that I wrote. I also wrote my own gopher server.

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                I mostly run a Gemini capsule, but scrape websites and serve those sites up over Gopher for myself.

                                                                              2. 4

                                                                                coreboot.org has some basic gopher presence because, why not?

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  Maybe that gives a shorter path than http/html for bootstrapping a system (with not much userland utilities there already) and accessing the coreboot.org page from the coreboot-ed system (just for fun maybe).

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    Is it at gopher://coreboot.org ?

                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                      Yes

                                                                                  2. 4

                                                                                    My phlog is happily serving the markdown sources of my HTML blog. I recently clean the source for it to be more gopher friendly.

                                                                                    I now want to use gopher more for serving random thoughs/notes quickly without worrying about style.

                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                      I started this week! I just have a test though for now. Also in my first explorations I came across your gopher hole through a phlog aggregator as it happens!

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        Great! AFAIK,servers of the tildeverse can do their best to support gopher. We can also use their gopherproxy to proxy your web gopher://gopher.conman.org. eg.https://gopher.tildeverse.org/conman.org

                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                          Not yet, but I’ve revived an old project I intended on starting five years ago to build one. Just took a few days of occasional work to build a pretty complete Gopher server. I just have to get around to implementing executable gophermaps and possibly CGI support.

                                                                                          After I’m done with that, I’m considering implementing my own Gemini server.

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            Yes, dual-hosting with HTML. I use https://code.z0.is/notwiki/ for that.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              Floodgap admin here.

                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                              Michael Lazar has written a nice little finger daemon implementation for a single user installation ⌘ https://github.com/michael-lazar/finger2020

                                                                                              It’s written in Python 3 and is very easy to set up.

                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                I would love to see a version of mastodon ( or diaspora! ) that implements a shared user database using a blockchain for storing user authentication info and profile data.

                                                                                                Does anyone know if Secure scuttlebutt has a function like this? I’ll have to read up on that project if it does.

                                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                                  Does anyone know if Secure scuttlebutt has a function like this?

                                                                                                  Well, not really. There is no central authority on Secure Scuttlebutt. And yet: Each user has access to to their own data plus the data belonging to all users within their “hops circle”. The number of hops is configurable: hops=1: my friends, hops=2: my friends and their friends, and so on.

                                                                                                  I have config.friends.hops=4 and the API call friends.createFriendStream() reports that I can see a total of 19674 feeds. For these almost 20k feeds I have theoretical access to their public key, profile data and all their posts and likes — even when I’m offline. But each of these ~20k users most probably have a different set of feeds within each their “hops circle” and so the total amount of data they have access to is also different.

                                                                                                  Secure Scuttlebutt is more like relations in real life: The total population may be quite big, and theoretically you have access to all the data about the entire population. In reality, though, you only have access to a limited amount of data based on how many friends and acquaintances your have and how outgoing you are.


                                                                                                  Convenience link for those who do not know Secure Scuttlebutt (“SSB”): https://scuttlebutt.nz/

                                                                                                  For those who want to try out what SSB has to offer, please remember: Because there are no central servers, you will only see your own posts on the public timeline until you connect with somebody else. You can connect with someone just by being on the same LAN, or your can join a pub or a room.

                                                                                                  I’m unsure how up-to-date the scuttlebutt.nz site is, but it should be able to get most people started.

                                                                                                  If you have trouble onboarding, which can be the biggest hurdle for many, feel free to contact me.

                                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                                  There is also https://feedbase.org/ that regularly fetches Atom/RSS-feeds and exposes the items using the nntp protocol, allowing you to follow the feeds using a news reader.

                                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                                    From a long term NNTP user this is a fantastic product.

                                                                                                  1. 5

                                                                                                    I use https://fraidyc.at/ in Firefox (also works for Chrome). It’s nice and unobtrusive.

                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                      Jesus Christ this article is complete trash.

                                                                                                      Two thirds of the article is pointless propaganda, only after a good 60% the author actually starts explaining how this zettelkasten system works.

                                                                                                      What’s the point? Why are you even trying to convince me? Are trying to sell me a piece of furniture later?


                                                                                                      Regarding the system itself: I am tempted to say that a good wiki software like confluence would do the same, but the real advantage of the furniture is that it’s likely going to keep working in 20 years. I wouldn’t bet the same in confluence (or MediaWiki or whatever).

                                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                                        Mediawiki is 18 years old. Confluence is 16. Considering the Lindy effect, there is a good chance they will still work in 20 years.

                                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                                          Well, I wouldn’t call Confluence “good wiki software” any more than I would call Visual Basic a robust development environment, but I take your point. My database of personal and professional notes for the past 15 years has been a private instance of Dokuwiki and the more I read about Zettelkasten, it just sounds like a curated personal wiki like I have, once you get past all the gushing.

                                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                                            Editing in confluence is light years ahead of pretty much everything else.

                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                              Does dokuwiki have backlinks and tags?

                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                Backlinks yes, tags no. Maybe with a plug-in.

                                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                                  Thanks.

                                                                                                                  So perhaps one could have a page called “Tag:Something” that only holds a description of what could have been the tag “#Something”. All pages that are related to “Something” should have a link to “Tag:Something” on their taglist, and the backlinks on page “Tag:Something” will show relevant pages.

                                                                                                                  It’s a bit like Wikepedia’s “Category:Something”, isn’t it.

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                                                                                                              The space around the concept “Zettelkasten” has all the features of an emerging marketing space. There are already multiple software solutions. Just wait for the custom-made physical slip-boxes, the note cards in different colors, the books, the pay-for videos, and the webinars.

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                                                                                                                As I wrote here a couple weeks ago:

                                                                                                                The Zettelkasten thing sure has been hitting the zeitgeist hard these last few months - right around when I started poking at those ideas myself after kind of edging around them for a decade or two. It’s interesting to feel a burgeoning nerd methodology cult wash over and through the system of my own thinking. I was a lot less self-aware the last few times this really happened to me (the first big wiki wave back in the era of thousand-line Perl CGI wiki software comes to mind), and I never got drawn into GTD or Agile on any deeply felt personal level, so it’s almost like a new experience.

                                                                                                                That said, I think it’s also been quietly bubbling along in the background of the note-taking nerd memespace for many years now. I think I first ran across the word “Zettelkasten” on Taking Note, a blog I’ve probably been following since 2008 or so, but index card approaches that are clear relatives to it in one way or another have been popping up now and then for most of my adult life, I think. It just seems to have reached a critical mass lately. Or, as you say, become an emerging marketing space. Establishing itself as a working methodology-cult ecosystem with an in-group vocabulary, defined rituals, canonical texts & standard arguments, and mystique about True Process. You can see it happening in realtime over at the Zettelkasten Forum, which is run by the authors of The Archive.

                                                                                                                …and which is an interesting forum to skim now and then. I don’t want to be disparaging, this is just how these sorts of cultural phenomena seem to unfold. I’m trying to stay self-aware about all this while I spend a fair amount of time building up my own system of notes.

                                                                                                                (I did some ranting about notes about notes / writing about writing and so forth last night, inspired partly by this thread and others like it.)

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                                                                                                                  The memory of your comment inspired mine.

                                                                                                                  There will always be a market for selling tools that magically replace hard work and time with a “process”. I’m not really judging. My work/life doesn’t require anything like Zettelkasten, but I’m sure it would interest my dad, who has been buying old handheld computers just to keep using their database software.

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                                                                                                                It’s weird too, that it sells the idea, then starts explaining how it works, then it goes back to selling it again for a few more paragraphs! And only after that second set of propaganda it finishes the explanation.

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                                                                                                                  It’s not well written, but all the tools linked in the article are free (and most of them not harvesting your data).

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                                                                                                                    What’s the point? Why are you even trying to convince me?

                                                                                                                    I think that it is targeted towards a particular audience: “The main component of The Writing Cooperative is our publication, which is one of Medium’s largest. […] Everything we publish falls within our mission statement: Helping each other write better.” But yeah, the tempo was a bit choppy and it reminded me of one of those “weird thing” articles. Then with big promises it dumps a board game on the reader without explaining the rules.

                                                                                                                    It seems like there is something promising in Luhmann’s system, but I don’t want to risk getting a hand-me-down cargo culted version of it.

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                                                                                                                    Am I the only who clicked the link and was surprised that this wasn’t about Nix the package manager?

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                                                                                                                      maybe? *nix used to refer to unix-like systems in general is really common.

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                                                                                                                        Probably. The asterisk notation, *nix, is a common way of referring to UNIX’y operating systems.