1. 30

    “It seems like every fruit company is making its own silicon these days, and we’re no exception.”

    Nice.

    1. 10

      And? Why do we need to discuss iCloud in reference to zoom?

      1. 24

        I think the author’s idea is, “why do we hold other companies blatantly accountable (like Zoom), and not Apple?”

        1. 26

          I guess I don’t see the need to equivocate both. They’re different threat models and different situations.

          If the goal is to attack icloud, just note its flaws. Just like people did when they originally were known. Zoom is in the line of fire due to their current issues. If we’re going to start “yes and”ing every security failure I’m ditching both of these tags in lobsters. It is as bad as the constant arguments about countries doing bad things and hearing people bring up every other countries other problems as reasons why we shouldn’t care. We can legitimately care about both without constantly comparing between companies or countries.

          The constant comparison really rubs me the wrong way like propoganda at derailing conversation away from the actual problems on their own merits.

          1. 12

            The one-word-ism for this is “whataboutism” and I too would like to see lots less of it all over the internet, but especially here!

            1. 4

              this type of argument is a critique of media and our collective ethical standards, rather than a critique of the situation as such. there’s nothing wrong with this type of critique, and i just as often see people dismissing such valid forms of critique as “whataboutism,” thus derailing the conversation away from examining media and ethical standards.

              this goes for /u/haldean’s comment as well

            2. 12

              we’re holding zoom accountable? huh?

              1. 1

                “accountable”

            3. 4

              Zoom and Apple are both companies that claim to be end-to-end encrypted, yet this person is claiming that they are not.

              1. 19

                Apple does not claim to be end-to-end encrypted for backups or notes or photos or videos. Apple’s own weasely KB article on the topic is linked from TFA.

                They also fail to mention that backups include your complete conversation history with everyone you’ve ever texted or iMessaged with on your device.

                This is me, shining a flashlight on that.

            1. 1

              Waagh. Very little here.

              https://blog.qtp2t.club

              1. 2

                I like the 3/29 post!

              1. 1

                Not much there yet.

                https://coltonhurst.com/writing

                1. 2

                  Wow. First, this is impressive and helpful. Second, if this works as u/Pebaz said, I think this will help the Nim language a lot. (Assuming people make helpful libraries in Nim that Python devs import easily and use.)

                  1. 9

                    Another reason, from the opposite point of view, is that static site generators are often an unnecessary burden. You can just write the HTML5 directly, very easily. Most tags do not need to be closed in modern html, and it is just as readable as markdown. No need to write your text in a slightly different language and then compile it.

                    1. 4

                      To be honest, I find writing HTML for prose painful; it’s hard to write and hard to read, and there are a bunch of caveats you need to be careful about (like writing < as &gt;). Writing stuff like <strong>bold</strong> or <code>quote me</code> just takes too much time when writing; I want to focus on actually writing content, not typing HTML tags. For me, the biggest advantage of Markdown is that it gets out of my way and allows me to focus on the actual content – which is already hard enough – instead of the syntax.

                      YMMV, and whatever works for you of course, but I think this is the added value for a lot of people.

                      1. 1

                        Prose rarely has boldface or other fancy stuff. If you need to use it too much, then you are doing something wrong. That said, you can use the “i” and “b” tags which are shorter. The only thing that I find annoying when writing html prose is “p” the paragraph tags. I would prefer if a blank line started a paragraph. But I can live with those.

                        In the cases when you need some markup, html5 tables are actually easier than markdown tables, and lists and links are mostly equivalent.

                        1. 2

                          Maybe prose is the wrong word (not native speaker 😅); I mostly mean stuff like articles (i.e. longer versions of comments on Lobsters) where various forms of formatting are fairly common. Common enough for me to be distracted by it, anyway.

                          I actually find tables to be one of the more ugly parts of HTML; so many tags, and often not that readable as source code.

                          1. 3

                            Regarding tables, notice that with HTML5 you don’t need to close any table tags besides “table”. It’s actually cleaner than the many flavors of markdown tables.

                      2. 3

                        Maybe I’m just old-fashioned, but that’s what I do. I write the HTML by hand. It’s not difficult and my site is very fast.

                        1. 7

                          How do you handle HTML that should be common to all pages, like the <head> section or the top nav? Do you copy it over to each new page’s source, or do you have some kind of preprocessor to keep it defined separately?

                          1. 7

                            I saw a post (maybe on here) a while ago where the author said that they write their HTML by hand and they were asked how they manage these bits of common markup. Their response was that they explicitly do not make sure every page has the same header/footer/layout. When starting a new article, they would start by copying a previous post and then tweak the design. The upshot is that a user can follow the evolution of the design from older posts to newer posts, and the design can even be adjusted to better match the content of each individual article. I don’t think I’d like it if every website worked like this but it’s a neat idea for a personal website.

                            1. 11

                              That was my post :-) You can look at the different articles here on my site to see an example of the difference in styling.

                              1. 2

                                On the subject of this thread, I’m a tablet hater and I think “SSH is painful on tables” is an argument against modern day tablet UIs.

                                Now, a shameless plug: my generator supports extracing metadata from HTML natively. ;) The blog index at https://soupault.neocities.org/blog/ is autogenerated. The config basically says “use <h1> for the post title, <time id="post-date"> for the date and first paragraph for excerpt”. However, ["p#post-excerpt", "p"] means “use <p id="post-exceprt"> if it’s present, else just use the first paragraph”, so I can use any paragraph for the blog index page, not just the first.

                                `dump_json = “index.json” saves extracted metadata to a file, that’s what I generate an Atom feed from with a script.

                                1. 1

                                  Now, a shameless plug: my generator supports extracing metadata from HTML natively ;) The blog index at https://soupault.neocities.org/blog/ is autogenerated.

                                  As far as static site generation, I think this is a much better idea than YAML front matter. I do a similar thing, except not for my index page, only for my RSS feed, which is generated on the fly with a PHP script (example).

                                  I chose PHP specifically because I wanted to avoid local generation. There are just two many drawbacks, like the fact that you can’t update your site on another system, where your generation tools aren’t installed or even supported.

                                  1. 1

                                    Ah, the feed is dynamically generated. For some reason I thought you wrote a local feed generator in PHP.

                                    If you find yourself working on random machines often, that’s a valid concern indeed. Soupault itself is “download the executable and run” for all major OSes, though my Atom feed generator script is not. CI deploys can also solve that problem though.

                            2. 4

                              I used to do that for my site years ago. When it got to a certain size, I decided to do something about it and converted my entire site to XML and use XSLT to convert it to HTML. The XSLT handles the generation of each page and ensure all the links work properly. I use CSS to handle the style, and rsync to move the files to the server.

                              For my blog I wrote my own blogging engine (that I’ve been using for 20 years now), with three ways to import new entries:

                              1. a web page with a textarea entry field
                              2. via email (my preferred method)
                              3. via a file on the server

                              Each entry is stored as a separate HTML file; it’s the blogging engine that strings all the entries together for a view. I used to write each entry in HTML, but for the past year I’ve been using a custom markup (that’s geared toward how I write and is a mashup of Markdown and Org Mode) but saving the resulting HTML.

                              1. 1

                                Good question. At the moment, I copy from an existing page in the same directory location and edit the content. When I need to change something for all pages, if I can, I use the “find and replace all” tool in my editor (VS Code) to do the change in bulk. If I can’t use that, then I have to tediously go page by page and make the change, and verify they are all the same.

                                My site is still small and simple- but today I was thinking about how I’d like to write my own little preprocessor to handle that stuff. As I start adding more pages to my site, it’ll become too annoying to do it by hand. Once I have that little tool though, as long as I stay with my “simple” themes, I’ll be fine. I don’t have any intention currently to make it complicated (ex- my site has no JS).

                                1. 3

                                  check out m4, a pre-processor capable of doing exactly what you want, built into *nix. :) That said, if you want to write one, don’t let me stop you!

                                  1. 1

                                    Oh perfect, thank you! I’ll check it out.

                                    1. 3

                                      you can see a very, very simple way to use it for html here: https://gitlab.com/aslrocks/aslrocks/-/blob/master/bin/convert_html and the template is there as well, obviously.

                                2. 1

                                  One of my blog setups was HTML written in Pug: it had a master.pug with the html root and a block body-section down below, then post.pug would extend ./master.pug on the first line and fill in block body-section, leaving another block for me to define in a blog post.

                                  Each post would look like extends ../post and then it would just define block post. This isn’t maybe exactly what you had in mind, but I find using Pug a pretty reasonable way to write HTML. Right now I blog via markdown/hugo, but I consider switching back to my Pug setup.

                                3. 2

                                  That sounds painful. It would be better to write markdown and at least generate HTML from it and upload those files manually, if nothing else.

                              1. 12

                                2D C99 Game Engine. Now 5500 LOC (1100 of that is comments, descriptions and documentation). It took four (maybe more?) weeks of nights and weekends, but last night, I finally got the entire pipeline of UTF-8 strings -> grapheme cluster -> glyph mapping -> bitmap font glyphs drawn using a texture atlas to work, with 1 draw call per string of up to 160 glyphs (right now). I’ll be cleaning that up, maybe doing some text layout work, and proceeding to simple games like the twin stick shooter I was doing in C++ before I hitched the magical carpet ride into C.

                                1. 3

                                  Awesome. Would love to check it out if you ever open source it.

                                  1. 2

                                    What has surprised you most in moving from C++ to C99?

                                    1. 4

                                      I’d never really done any projects in only C before. C is so much simpler than C++, I may be writing more verbose code, but I move through tasks much faster and the solutions seem to be simpler.

                                      I used to be a major C++ devotee (I have a printed C++14 language spec), but the language has gotten so ridiculously complex in C++17 and C++20, that just writing C professionally is very, very appealing to me.

                                  1. 73

                                    He’s not wrong, but a quarter of a page about how almost all laptops are worse than 2008-era thinkpads is a little bit low-information for the lobste.rs frontpage isn’t it?

                                    1. 14

                                      I think you’re right, it’s low information. But, if others here feel the same as the article, I’m optimistic it will promote conversation on what can be used (I’m hoping I am wrong about what’s out there). I’d love an alternative to the Dell stack I currently use.

                                      1. 11

                                        It is a good justification for me to mention (once again) that there are a lot of barely-touched second hand 10 year old thinkpads on ebay for, like, less than $100. So, you can get like a dozen good laptops for the price of a bad one.

                                      2. 19

                                        Maybe it’s not the most “technical” post, but I think the point / heart of it is that there is a change that many would like to see in future laptops. Instead of razor thin laptops with horrible keyboards, many people want something that just works.

                                        It’s an opinion piece, and I personally don’t see anything wrong with it being posted here (and the tags are correct).

                                        1. 7

                                          Sure. It’s just both an opinion piece & very short.

                                          1. 25

                                            The only reason it’s on the front page is because drew wrote it. There’s zero doubt about this.

                                            This place loves to laud over him which annoys me specifically given I’ve seen him harass friends of mine because according to him, if you don’t use the “right software” (aka, software he believes is right), it makes you an absolute horrible person deserving of harrassment.

                                            Wish I could filter out domains…

                                            1. 8

                                              Mostly, I wish there was more consistency. I post ranty things with more substance than this & get downvoted to hell (here & HN) – and my rants are rarely less than a five minute read. (On top of that, I stay away from ad hominems when arguing with strangers on the internet, which is not nothing.) If lobste.rs was rant-friendly I’d post more of them here.

                                              Folks posting links to low-quality posts that are popular because people already agree with them is a much bigger part of the signal/noise ratio problem on lobste.rs than actual spammers, & because Drew is a name, he seems to get attention even when the same exact content in a comment would get one or two upvotes. (Like, this blog post is just a more severe version of comments I’ve literally made on this site.)

                                            2. 7

                                              I’d rather read this than yet another post about how Unix is so terrible because it’s based on plain text like that “Programmer’s critique of missing structure of operating systems” post, or some company talking about using AWS (literally nobody cares whether you use AWS), or yet another “I rewrote [unix standard command] in Rust” post.

                                              1. 5

                                                “Programmer’s critique of missing structure of operating systems” post,

                                                There was a lot more in that post than you’re giving it credit for, the AWS thing can be interesting from a “This is how switching works/is motivated”. The Rust stuff is what it is.

                                                This submission was basically a complaint about the state of consumer products without any relevant links or analysis/context (at least when I read it). It contains really inflammatory and frankly mean screeds like:

                                                If you work at any of these companies and you’re proud of the garbage you’re shipping, then I’m disappointed in you.

                                                On a factual basis, it’s a lot easier to get a multicore laptop right now with a better camera than it was 12 years ago. It is a lot easier to get one with USB 3. It is a lot easier to get one with a high-resolution screen. It is a lot easier to get one with a good graphics card. Drew is happy to ignore all of that progress because he finds them difficult to service and difficult to run Free as in Freedom software on, and so immediately condemns everything else as garbage.

                                                I’d rather read somebody talking about their attempt at making wordcount in Rust than such a shallow and negative and just obviously narrow-minded outburst.

                                                1. 1

                                                  Fair enough. I like that first category so long as it says something new (which it often does), but the other two are at least as spammy & low-effort as this.

                                            3. 19

                                              It’s correctly tagged as rant, and @cfenollosa can’t help that Drew is the darling child of lobsters who can say no wrong.

                                              EDIT (clarification, in case you don’t see the below): this is criticism of Lobsters, and defense of this blog post being posted, not criticism of any individuals.

                                              1. 53

                                                In reality, there also seem to be a fair number of people on Lobsters who think I can say no right. I don’t post my own writing to Lobsters anymore because of issues ranging from valid concerns about spam to obnoxious toxicity.

                                                My take is, I write for myself, not for Lobsters. When a Lobster seems to think something I’ve written is worth discussing, then I leave it up to the community to vote on as they see fit. I’ll usually drop into the threads to answer questions, but I find it difficult to engage with Lobsters beyond this - and even that much is difficult. Because you know who I am and what I work on, it seems like any topic I weigh in on is interpreted as spam, be it via submissions or commenting in discussions, even if I go out of my way not to frame my comments in the context of anything I work on.

                                                I don’t really like this community anymore, but I reckon some Lobsters would argue that’s by design.

                                                1. 16

                                                  obnoxious toxicity

                                                  I’m not going to claim that Lobsters is perfect, but “obnoxious toxicity” doesn’t seem like an apt description either; at least not in my experience. How is it toxic, specifically?

                                                  1. 29

                                                    Obviously tone is mostly subjective, but I have noticed the same thing recently on some of Drew’s writings that get posted here. Even the comment by @mz could be seen as really negative

                                                    @cfenollosa can’t help that Drew is the darling child of lobsters who can say no wrong

                                                    I have a hard time not reading that with vitriol or almost malice (though as indicated by @mz this was supposed to be sarcastic). Saying, “hey I don’t think there isn’t a ton of technical information here” and not upvoting is one thing, but when Drew clearly didn’t post the article themselves and still gets comments that to me seem very unpleasant. It really would be hard to like a community.

                                                    EDIT: Again in this same thread, I’m just going to start collecting the comments that if I were reading about me that I’d consider to be disheartening and drive me away from this community.

                                                    I’ve seen much worse Drew Dewalt rants keep the top spot on lobste.rs for weeks tbh.

                                                    1. 25

                                                      Ya, that comment is clearly less-than-perfect, but I also wouldn’t describe it as “obnoxious toxicity” personally, but YMMV.

                                                      It’s not like Drew’s communication style is always … gentle. I mean, in this post he’s literally telling people they should die. Obviously I know it’s supposed to be a joke and intended to be hyperbolic, but sjeez man; that’s pretty harsh… Reasonably sure such a comment would be downvoted to hell on Lobsters or HN.

                                                      If you dish out harsh words, then don’t be surprised if people reply with harsh words, too.

                                                      1. 4

                                                        This is definitely a case of a missing /s or otherwise tone being lost in text form. Please see my clarification and comment follow-up.

                                                        1. 5

                                                          I really don’t mean this as a cut to you either, it is just how I read it tonally. Text communication is hard.

                                                      2. 9

                                                        In my experience the toxicity has various specific loci, and if you happen to avoid those in your interactions with the community then you’re fine.

                                                        Woe betide you however it you step on a hot button.

                                                        Still love the place. I donned my asbestos underwear for the first time long before at least some of you were born :)

                                                      3. 6

                                                        I absolutely know what you’re saying, and I commend you for writing for yourself rather than for clout or for internet points. I think a lot of the blog spam we see on lobsters is stuff trying to be topical enough to be unoffensive, but content-less enough to be spam.

                                                        I in no way meant this as a criticism of you @ddevault. I meant it as a criticism of lobsters, a community which seems to be very addicted to being polarized over your content.

                                                        I totally get why you don’t post your stuff here. In general, a blog post not being appropriate for lobsters is not a criticism of the blog post (to think otherwise is some serious tech elitism).

                                                        Thanks for engaging with the comment. It seems you interpreted it the way I intended it, as I had no intention of offense.

                                                        1. 7

                                                          Point of fact: you took advantage of us as a marketing channel.

                                                          1. 45

                                                            Here is my self-evaluation of my posting history. Green = unambiguously not spam. Blue = cool stuff I made, but which doesn’t make me money. Together these make up almost half of my posts. Pink = dubious, I could benefit indirectly from these, but would argue that they’re on topic and relevant. That covers all but 3 of my posts. Of the remainder, which are definitely more ads than not, one is the most highly upvoted story of all time in each of its tags.

                                                            I think that this balance was reasonable enough, but in the BSD submission there was some discussion about whether or not it was too spammy, so I curbed my posting on Lobsters. The vast majority of submissions from my blog are not submitted by me, but it seems like I’m being held accountable for all of them as spam.

                                                            In any case, I don’t post my stuff here anymore. Take it up with the rest of the community if you don’t like seeing my posts here.

                                                            1. 32

                                                              I’m sad and sorry that the community has responded this way to your posts, especially as you have stopped linking them yourself. You can’t control what other people do, yet you bear the brunt of their unhappiness.

                                                              I like seeing your posts here, as there is often good discussion that is prompted by them. Even if some think of them as “ads”, at least it’s for good, open source software (and not things much worse like Google and Facebook).

                                                              I’m glad you’re writing for yourself- I (and others) will continue to enjoy reading what you write.

                                                            2. 8

                                                              Drew’s content may not always be earth-shattering, but a typical post of his likely opens my eyes as anything else on the site. Lobsters is not a place that discourages people from posting their own content.

                                                              ☑️ I am the author of the story at this URL (or this text)

                                                              1. 7

                                                                The link doesn’t seem to prove the “took advantage of” part, or am I missing something?

                                                            3. 0

                                                              Fair enough! And yes, I’ve seen much worse Drew Dewalt rants keep the top spot on lobste.rs for weeks tbh. I guess I can’t argue with success.

                                                            4. 3

                                                              Yes, it could have been contained in a comment. But maybe that’s why the article gets upvoted a lot: It’s low-effort to read, everyone basically agrees, and it’s a relief that apparently everyone feels the same (and it’s not their fault for not being able to find a proper laptop).

                                                              1. 1

                                                                How’s it a quarter of a page? It’s an entire page on my fairly high-resolution screen (1440p with no scaling). How zoomed out is your web browser?

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  I have a portrait display & my zoom setting is only 100% – basically because I don’t want a ‘screenful’ to be thirty seconds of reading.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                I really like this article. My favorite two points are the last two…

                                                                • Tracking My Progress and Implementing Changes
                                                                • Being Patient

                                                                So often people give advice for some type of improvement, and these two points are missed. If you don’t review, if you don’t look at the before and after… how do you know if what you’ve done has helped? For the second point, too often people (I should speak for myself!) try to take on too much all at once. Incremental steps that stick will yield much greater returns over time rather than too many changes at once that someone can’t handle.

                                                                Thanks for the article!

                                                                1. 24

                                                                  Fantastic!! A personal website is a great way to own your identity online and take back your web experience from the big social media silos. So I’m really pleased when I see people making websites!

                                                                  Mine’s pretty minimal, which is how I like it. :-)

                                                                  https://dn.ht

                                                                  It’s a bit of info about me and some of my projects/writing. One thing I’m really happy with is my photography journal: https://dn.ht/journal/

                                                                  Hosted on S3 with cloudfront, so it only costs a few cents a month to host.

                                                                  I keep the tooling really light so that it’s easy to maintain. Most pages are hand written HTML and CSS.

                                                                  I’ve found that it’s really easy to procrastinate on tooling and tech stack. Starting with almost no tech helps me get-on-with-it. My advice is “just start”.

                                                                  The photo journal is statically generated using an ERB template and a makefile. It generates html from a directory full of photos exported out of Adobe lightroom. It’s a tiny bit awkward sometimes, but it fits in really well with my personal photography workflow.

                                                                  My design aesthetic is quite minimal. For example, my photo journal I was really annoyed with how images on instagram are small and heavily compressed—so I wanted to have something where people can see my photos in large size / high-res.

                                                                  I’m using a monospace font called ISO, which was originally designed for the website exif.co so it’s got a vintage camera feel but fits in with my programming interests too.

                                                                  1. 6

                                                                    A lot of beautiful photos in that journal.

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      That’s what I came to say too. The photos are amazing.

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        Thank you very much! 😊

                                                                      2. 2

                                                                        I really like your photo journal idea!
                                                                        It actually looks much better in practice than I’ve imagined as I’ve been struggling with photo journal in my own blog - the biggest challenge being how to structure everything so it would be accessible and beautiful. However it turns out that just dumping everything can be quite sexy!

                                                                        If you’re interested in my approach I’ve decided to simply redirect to Pixelfed which has a great profile page design. The thumbnails are rather small compared to what you want but it doesn’t crop or compress anything!

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          Oh yeah pixelfed looks like a great insta alternative. Something I’d be keen to work out is how to allow folks to subscribe to my journal. One of the downsides of being independent is it’s hard to fit in with the social media sites people use. Is rss still the way to do it? Or can I somehow integrate into the mastodon/pixelfed fediverse..?

                                                                          1. 1

                                                                            Pixelfed does support rss and federation. Probably some other sub methods too!

                                                                        2. 2

                                                                          Picklecat is great!

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            Oh my gosh picklecat!

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          https://coltonhurst.com

                                                                          Pretty simple, running on nginx. I need to start blogging :)

                                                                          1. 4

                                                                            This didn’t come out in 2019, but I would highly recommend the book Feed by MT Anderson. I read it almost a year ago and haven’t stopped thinking about it since. Anderson takes capitalism to a certain end- where massive companies are controlling everything, and the world has become completely reliant on the power held by those top few (sound familiar?).

                                                                            1. 52

                                                                              Piling up reasons to leave Facebook won’t make people leave Facebook. Most people cannot leave Facebook for the simple reason they need it and they have not enough time/energy/stability to invest time in exploring a new social network and rebuild their connections there.

                                                                              Facebook is social infrastructure now and asking people to renounce using infrastructure is not just about the act itself, it comes with a big cost. You cannot ask people living in the countryside to renounce cars and ride bikes if the next town is 20kms away and the public transporation is basically absent. Yes, you can live in the countryside without a car and take the bus that comes twice a day but the rearragement required in your life is deep and complex. The same is true for Facebook. On top of this, expecting everybody to be able to rearrange their life like this is deeply classist and the like many “hackerist” issues, the condition of working people is not considered, limiting this action to a bourgie privilege equal to eating organic local food to fight global warming. This give the few activists a sense of moral entitlement and the others a sense of guilt (or directly a feeling of hatred for the cause and the activists, because they feel unable to join them), but contributes nothing to the ultimate cause.

                                                                              The solution must be systemic: lobby to limit or ban facebook in your country, promote local, indipendent, politically-aware projects of social infrastructure re-development to replace Facebook, grow existing global solutions and do it on Facebook, because you want to reach the people on Facebook, not the others. And please, stop asking people to leave Facebook.

                                                                              1. 28

                                                                                I was mostly with you until you claimed it’s ‘classist’ to tell people to stop using Facebook. What ‘bourgie privilege’ is involved in not using a toxic, harmful social media website? Step back and take a look at the big picture, seriously. There’s no need to be so dramatic. Using Facebook is not some ingrained human notion, it’s been popular for less than 10 years. Nobody has to ‘rearrange their life’ to stop using Facebook. There are alternatives for nearly every way in which people use it that require the same amount of effort or less to use.

                                                                                Most peoples’ use of Facebook is in a few categories. They use it to show off, for messenger, for marketplace, for local groups, for family groups, or as a news website.

                                                                                A lot of people use Facebook to show off. They post pictures of their kids, places they’ve been, pictures of themselves having fun. There’s a better version of Facebook for this called Instagram. Use that instead. Probably a lot of the same privacy issues, yeah, but at least it’s not literal Facebook.

                                                                                Messenger isn’t even a good messaging platform, and there are lots of other ways of keeping in contact with people. A lot of people tell me they stay on Facebook for messenger, then when I ask them who they talk to on messenger that they can’t message otherwise they can’t answer. People want to ‘stay in contact’ with old school friends, but people managed to do that before Facebook fine, and personally I used that excuse until I realised that I hadn’t done so for years and I wasn’t going to. Let’s be realistic: people don’t keep in contact with old school friends because they don’t have anything in common other than having gone to the same school. They have no reason to keep in contact with or without Facebook. If there’s someone that really matters to you, you’ll find a way to contact them outside of Facebook (“hey can I have your email/phone number/whatever? I’m getting rid of my Facebook account”). And the rest that you never talk to anyway? You won’t actually miss anything by not being able to contact people you were never going to contact anyway.

                                                                                Facebook marketplace is useful to people, but eBay and its many equivalents in different countries still exist and work, the classified section of the local paper still works. There are lots of other ways to buy and sell stuff other than Facebook. In my experience, selling stuff on Facebook means you get the most entitled people in history asking you questions and demanding things of you. The number of times I’ve sold something specifically with a fixed price and ‘pick up only’, the person has said they’ll buy it, and then they’ve turned around and gone ‘hey can you mail it to me I live in [other city]’. It says pick up only what is wrong with you. Or the dozen people that will ask you numerous in-depth questions trying to judge the quality of stuff you’re selling for $5. They can’t seem to tell that the effort I want to put into selling something when all I’m getting is $5 is going to be much less than when I’m selling something for $500.

                                                                                Local area groups are probably the only subject where Facebook is still useful. If you’re a member of the local Facebook group for your suburb or whatever, then go ahead, stick with Facebook. I personally don’t know how people can stand them, they’re full of the kind of people I think Americans refer to as ‘soccer moms’: entitled, bougie, opinionated middle aged women (and it mostly is women) that think vaccines and fluoride are killing their kids and who can’t handle someone going on holiday for six weeks and not mowing their lawn from 10000km away. But some people find value in these groups and I can’t think of any particularly good alternative at the moment.

                                                                                Family groups/group chats/whatever have loads of alternatives. And Facebook is an awful news website. Getting people just to stop using it as a news website, even if they still use it for everything else? That would be a blessing.

                                                                                1. 14

                                                                                  There’s a better version of Facebook for this called Instagram. Use that instead.

                                                                                  Instagram is owned by Facebook; don’t the same objections to Facebook apply to Instagram, as well? (genuine question, not a challenge)

                                                                                  Personally, I find Instagram to be kind of toxic in a way because now everyone is focused on creating the “Instagram picture”. I’m not sure if we can really blame the Instagram platform for that, but I don’t like it. It’s also toxic in the same way as Facebook: you only see the good parts of people’s lives, which is often just a façade.

                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                    Instagram is bad for many of the same reasons that Facebook is bad, but it’s not got the same kind of nightmarish qualities that push Facebook from bad to should-be-illegal IMO. I’ve never seen ‘Fake News’ on Instagram, just incredibly facile crap mostly.

                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                      Fake news does seem to be a think on Instagram too: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fake+news+instagram

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        That facile crap subsidizes facebook.

                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                          And yet if the choice is between Instagram or Facebook I’d rather they were not on Facebook.

                                                                                  2. 19

                                                                                    People don’t need Facebook. People need water, amino-acids, vitamins and air. “But I have my entire social life in Facebook?”. I thought so too, then I quit Facebook and Instagram and found that I have exactly the same social life now.

                                                                                    In fact. Leaving those platform didn’t change my life one bit. Everything stayed exactly the same. That’s quite telling of the content on there.

                                                                                    1. 26

                                                                                      In fact. Leaving those platform didn’t change my life one bit. Everything stayed exactly the same. That’s quite telling of the content on there.

                                                                                      I’m happy for you! Unfortunately that’s not the case for everybody. Maybe you should not assume that it is?

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        How do you know that is not the case for everybody? I am actually curious. Have there been any studies made? I actually believe it is like that for most people. I also believe that they wouldn’t know unless they actually quit.

                                                                                        1. 7

                                                                                          I stopped using it instead of deleting it. The problem is that most people I know, friends and family, put their concerns, plans, important developments, etc on there. I missed all that past what people texted me. They generally won’t go through the trouble to do extra stuff for people just not on the platform. Missing out on stuff created both distance and sometimes resentment by those on the platform.

                                                                                          So, I”ll probably rejoin Facebook plus get on one or more of the others in the future just to prevent that. I’m delaying it because it’s going to be a big change with a pile of incoming posts and messages. I got too much going on to respond to them right now.

                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                            To combat this, I use FB in a “read-only” way. Although I don’t find a big issue with catching up with people when you actually see them in person. In fact, not paying as much attention to FB almost guarantees that they will have something surprising and interesting to tell me.

                                                                                          2. 6

                                                                                            I’ve never used Facebook and have no intentions to start, but it is not rare that I find I have missed events because they were posted only there. I am also at a point in my career where I don’t have to care that most local jobs are promoted on Facebook and sometimes only there.

                                                                                            1. 5

                                                                                              Well, I can help you with proving that. When I left Facebook a few years ago, I left about a dozen friends behind, whom I now miss.

                                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                                It is definitely not the case for me. Or anyone from Lithuania really. Here Facebook has become so dominant, that other platforms are made basically irrelevant. Twitter? Maybe a thousand users. Mastodon? Three that I know of. Other chat programs? I’ve only seen Discord used which is even worse than Facebook in my opinion. Facebook has over 50% market penetration here, with most of it being in 13-45 range(which by my quick calculations, has ~80% market penetration). This has effects with how people use Facebook. It is the dominant platform of political discourse here. It is basically impossible to leave Facebook without social changes.

                                                                                                1. 4

                                                                                                  Have there been any studies made?

                                                                                                  A thing is knowable without needing a study.

                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                    That’d be an interesting study or survey - surprised it hasn’t happened yet. Personally I do most of my chatting on Instagram - friends, acquaintances, group chats, new people I meet. People of my age and socioeconomic group are more likely to exchange IG than phone numbers upon meeting. That’s what’s difficult about these arguments - everyone’s life is different.

                                                                                                    Also like @vegai, I once deleted Facebook (~2013) and my social life was greatly hindered. Of course, I am still alive, but looking back I did miss out on a lot of events and people. At least back then Facebook was mostly for events and to easily be able to chat with people you may not be close with yet.

                                                                                                2. 11

                                                                                                  Leaving those platform didn’t change my life one bit. Everything stayed exactly the same. That’s quite telling of the content on there.

                                                                                                  Because you’re unaware of other ways of use facebook.

                                                                                                3. 7

                                                                                                  I understand a little bit where you’re coming from… just making a website telling people to leave Facebook doesn’t necessarily make a huge dent in the “stop Facebook” campaign. However, I respectfully disagree with your comment, and I think following the advice in your comment would be dangerous. Having sites like this are better than not having them.

                                                                                                  Specific to this site, I really appreciate that they clearly stated the intent of the site, gave direct reasons backing up their “thesis”, and also provided source links to further back those claims. I hear a lot about the “stop Facebook” campaign, but I think having a site that provides a myriad of reasons why someone should stop using Facebook is helpful. There may be a reason on that site that helps push someone over the edge.

                                                                                                  The site at the bottom also provides “how” links so that people can attempt to keep the functionality they would lose by leaving Facebook. Sure, nothing at this point has the exact same scale and features that Facebook does, but this gives people direct reasons why they should leave Facebook and gives them something to go to.

                                                                                                  Also… your points contradict each other. Two examples:

                                                                                                  • How is someone supposed to “And please, stop asking people to leave Facebook.” while doing “lobby to limit or ban facebook in your country” at the same time?
                                                                                                  • “Facebook is social infrastructure now and asking people to renounce using infrastructure is not just about the act itself, it comes with a big cost.” many people are aware of this cost. I know at least one person who has significantly changed their life, their work… and more so that they can help people get off of these dangerous platforms because they see the risk of keeping them as worse. They are prepared to give up temporary satisfaction so that those in the future can have something greater. Calling people “deeply classist” is not respectful to the people who have given a lot to leave Facebook or similar sites; you assume everyone making a stance against Facebook already has some form of privilege.

                                                                                                  I don’t share this to be “rude” or argue. I share this because I think what this site is doing is important.

                                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                                    Having sites like this are better than not having them.

                                                                                                    I agree, but is it the best way to spend your effort? I mean, any tech person is already aware of why Facebook is bad for you, including people working in Facebook. Same is true for people in tech critique. Yes, there are still areas of the intellectual world that haven’t been conquered by these ideas, but it’s not a list of facts that will change that.

                                                                                                    How is someone supposed to “And please, stop asking people to leave Facebook.” while doing “lobby to limit or ban facebook in your country” at the same time?

                                                                                                    This is not contradictory: I’m on Facebook, I want Facebook to die. In the same way I’m a programmer with a high salary and I believe the system is broken for paying programmers so much. Or that I live in a society that I think it’s broken: it’s literally a meme.

                                                                                                    The difference between individual action and systemic action is the key: here the solution must be systemic, not individual. Your stance on a political, systemic action doesn’t have to be somehow in accord with your individual consumption, because changing your consumption would be irrelevant. After the change you will lose Facebook and need to adapt your life? Yes, but so will everybody else and the transition will be easier because you will just follow the flow instead of going against it now.

                                                                                                    They are prepared to give up temporary satisfaction so that those in the future can have something greater. Calling people “deeply classist” is not respectful to the people who have given a lot to leave Facebook or similar sites; you assume everyone making a stance against Facebook already has some form of privilege.

                                                                                                    If you have time to care about political issues you’re already privileged. I say it as a person that spends half of his time on this and I feel deeply privileged, because I know that if I had to work 12 hours a day on stressful jobs, I wouldn’t be able to do all this stuff. I see the impact of a particularly stressful week at work on my projects and activities: if that was the norm as it is for the general population, I know I wouldn’t be able to achieve anything.

                                                                                                  2. 4

                                                                                                    lobby to limit or ban facebook in your country, promote local, independent […]

                                                                                                    My thinking lately circles around a legislation requiring social services to federate using an open protocol, so that people could freely choose between apps and services without losing their connections. This would recognize the fact that Facebook didn’t create your social graph — you did. And you should own it.

                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                      I’d be more in favour of just banning Facebook. People don’t need Facebook or websites like it. Everyone I know that uses it does so under a feeling of duress: everyone else uses it, so I have to use it.

                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                        What would a law banning it look like? Just outlaw social networks entirely?

                                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                                          It’s enough to say that they cannot be privately owned, centralized or for-profit. Implementing it in law is much much harder but we don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater

                                                                                                      2. 2

                                                                                                        Such protocol would have to allow for end-to-end encryption, otherwise not much would change. The real problem isn’t who owns the data, but who can access them. Is strong encryption something society would consider desirable? Hint: Law enforcement.

                                                                                                        Using a single protocol also means that there’s little to no space for inovation. Facebook did come up with things such as reactions to messages, which are not easily translatable to more oldschool IM protocols. As far as I know, it’s been also the first platform that came up with a confirmation that message have been read. I may not like these inovations, but that’s not the point.

                                                                                                        The point is that you either force everyone to use a single protocol and make it difficult to push for any change, or allow for multiple protocols, which is basically what we have right now. Yes, it’s not open, but having documentation doesn’t necessarily mean it’d be possible to keep up; especially when it’s against Facebook’s interest. They would undergo some extra effort to abide the law while making sure no one can actually threaten them by developing a good FOSS client.

                                                                                                        “These scandals just bother everyone. I’d ban all those computers and internets.” – Věra Pohlová, 72 years, pensioner. Newspaper “Metro”, 09/17/1999. Source.

                                                                                                      3. 3

                                                                                                        Most people cannot leave Facebook for the simple reason they need it and they have not enough time/energy/stability to invest time in exploring a new social network

                                                                                                        Most people can’t leave. But many people can.

                                                                                                        The people that stay might think twice before making their next event facebook-exclusive once they realize why other people have left.

                                                                                                        Yes, we need laws to protect us, but until those laws arrive we should do what we can to limit the harm.

                                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                                          The people that stay might think twice before making their next event facebook-exclusive once they realize why other people have left.

                                                                                                          Until they realize how attached to Facebook they are and come to the conclusion that “oh well, it’s their loss for leaving it.”.

                                                                                                        2. 2

                                                                                                          Piling up reasons to leave Facebook won’t make people leave Facebook.

                                                                                                          The only way to make people leave Facebook is to make them believe that it is unsafe to continue using it. That’s why people flocked to Facebook when MySpace was still around: MySpace let anyone message anyone, but with Facebook you could only talk to someone if you knew them and were their friend. This gave people the perception that Facebook was safer to communicate on, and thus the big migration occurred.

                                                                                                          However, Facebook is well aware of this, and Mark Zuckerberg isn’t quite as short-sighted as Rupert Murdoch. This is why they pour so much money and time into “security” and “privacy” initiatives, so the average Facebook user feels safe on their platform.

                                                                                                          lobby to limit or ban facebook in your country

                                                                                                          Yeah because banning things works… What a joke.

                                                                                                          Facebook isn’t going anywhere unless it does something really spectacularly dumb.

                                                                                                        1. 14

                                                                                                          This is a great article. Not only does she share a well written retrospective on what she should have done better… she doesn’t let her mistakes define her. If she did, or was afraid they would, she wouldn’t have written this.

                                                                                                          By writing this, she is able to grow from her mistakes, help people not make similar mistakes, teach others how to think through and do retrospectives… etc… but most importantly, she shows us by example that our mistakes don’t define our value as engineers or people. You learn, grow, and move on.

                                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                                            I also really appreciate the “(so far)” in the title, because, let’s face it — your worst mistake is only your worst until you inevitably commit a more egregious one.

                                                                                                          1. 13

                                                                                                            Next monday I start at my new job, and in a month I take the JLPT N5 (Japanese Language Proficiency Test), started studying a month and a half ago and it’s been an amazing experience. I’ll spend most of my time studying japanese this week before I am too busy with my new job.

                                                                                                            1. 5

                                                                                                              That’s awesome! I recently started studying, with a dream to get to N1 before I die…

                                                                                                              What is your study plan?

                                                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                                                I’m using JLTP more as a motivation than a goal, my objective is to be able to go to Japan and be able to have a normal conversation with just about everyone.

                                                                                                                Right now what I’m doing is vocabulary and kanji learning in the morning and grammar in the afternoon. I have a teacher at preply.com (really recommended), will not disclose the teacher here but if you are interested I can send it to you in a PM. She teaches me grammar basics and we have conversation practice. Then I got the “Dictionary of basic japanese grammar” and some other books and I deep dive into grammar topics myself in the afternoons while reading japanese texts, practicing writing and listening to japanese radio/tv.

                                                                                                            1. 3

                                                                                                              Thanks for sharing. I was looking for something exactly like this recently, and couldn’t find anything simple enough. Thank you for also making it open source (and in Go!)- can’t wait to dive into the repo and contribute if possible.

                                                                                                              1. 15

                                                                                                                ugh. https://github.com/bdmac/strong_password/blob/master/CHANGELOG#L1

                                                                                                                The CHANGELOG doesn’t mention this rubygems incident and it ALSO breaks BC. Maybe I’m overly pessimistic and paranoid but I’d have republished 0.0.6 unchanged as 0.0.8 and released anything new as 0.1.0.

                                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                                  Exactly. If you’re doing breaking changes, you shouldn’t increment the patch version…

                                                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                                                    Pre-1.0.0 releases in semantic versioning have no defined compatibility requirements with any other version.

                                                                                                                    Though, if this module is being used in production, a 1.0.0 release should be cut. Even more so since this is open source and you don’t know all of the consumers.

                                                                                                                    e: sp

                                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                                      fair, that’s a good point.

                                                                                                                    2. 2

                                                                                                                      With a 0.0.x I wouldn’t call that a problem, really. It just irks me that I suppose a lot of people might think not to upgrade from 0.0.7 although they should. Or would gem warn you that the installed version was yanked?

                                                                                                                  1. 66

                                                                                                                    A privacy enthusiast commented well on this article…

                                                                                                                    “The irony is so thick. Next we’ll have arsonists writing about fire safety.”

                                                                                                                    1. 29

                                                                                                                      I’ve come to expect this kind of hypocrisy from Google. This messaging is a natural counter to the work that I and other organizers have done to highlight the company’s ethical failings and sound the alarm. The upsetting thing to me is that this editorial will probably have a measurable, positive impact on the company’s brand, no matter how undeserved I feel that is.

                                                                                                                      1. 7

                                                                                                                        I called out people working for surveillance companies signing Never Again pledge. Still stand by that. Have to say I respect the hell out of this comment for both you standing up on principle and the risk it carries.

                                                                                                                      2. 10

                                                                                                                        He’s stuck. His entire business is predicated on the idea that people don’t care about their privacy. If there is pressure from consumers, what can Google do?

                                                                                                                        1. 23

                                                                                                                          Well, it’s like greenwashing. You just obfuscate with PR pieces like this, spread misinformation (eg “we’re all for it but nobody actually wants privacy”), take tiny steps that don’t cost you much, and delay, delay, delay any significant change. It can take you through literally decades without a fundamental change to the business model. Unfortunately, corporations and their PR firms are extremely good at these techniques now.

                                                                                                                          1. 5

                                                                                                                            We have to understand Google’s incentives if we want to understand why they do what they do, and we need to understand why if we want to speak intelligently about how they could do differently. But yeah, it’s desperate spin from Pinchai. I just don’t know what else he can say. He might actually believe it!

                                                                                                                            1. 8

                                                                                                                              Oh yeah, there’s no surprise he’s saying that. It’s sort of “best practice” now. I just thought you might be suggesting that consumer pressure may actually force Google to act on privacy issues, and I’m cautioning against thinking that because they have a whole arsenal of techniques to allow them to avoid any real change.

                                                                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                                                                The only thing that I can see changing Google/Facebook/Twitter/&c. behaviour is a change to the profitability of their business model, and the only way that can happen is regulatory pressure from the government. We’re not their customers. I suppose the collapse of the attention economy would do it too, but that’s not likely to happen soon.

                                                                                                                                1. 10

                                                                                                                                  The only thing that I can see changing Google/Facebook/Twitter/&c. behaviour is a change to the profitability of their business model

                                                                                                                                  Or, legislation. I know this is a super unpopular opinion here and on ‘hacker’ ‘news’, but there are things like HIPAA (in the US) which have actually helped preserve customer privacy to some degree. It may not be perfect, but it’s better than the current ‘wild west’ situation we have now.

                                                                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                                                                    Regulation! Yup! Same for security and avoiding lockin.

                                                                                                                                    One, easy option outside of regulation is to push them to offer a private version of their services for the same amount per user they make from ads. Maybe even a little more as extra incentive. If they still just spy, we’d have a stronger argument for regulation given the market refused to respond to the demand. That same thing could be the first regulation, too.

                                                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                                                      Well, yes. This is absolutely the sort of problem that regulation exists to address.

                                                                                                                                    2. 8

                                                                                                                                      I do believe that it’s going to be very important for workers within the industry to help bridge the knowledge gap for regulators and legislators, so that we can get thoughtful, forward-thinking legislation that isn’t predicated on misunderstandings of technology. I am, however, skeptical about the limits of that approach, since many of the most enthusiastic customers of privacy-violating technology are governments.

                                                                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                                                                        I am, however, skeptical about the limits of that approach, since many of the most enthusiastic customers of privacy-violating technology are governments.

                                                                                                                                        I think there’s ample proof by what snowden, etc have ‘leaked’ to show that companies who hoard user data make it substantially easier for governments with an interest in violating privacy (either by subpoena, willful cooperation from the company, or ‘hacking’). If companies did not hoard user data, governments would have to do substantially more work themselves.

                                                                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                                                                          Well, not substantially: just past a retention law under some pretense (i.e. fighting criminals/terrorists) making sure companies keep logs. Plenty examples of that around the world.

                                                                                                                                      2. 3

                                                                                                                                        We’re on the same page then.

                                                                                                                                  2. 4

                                                                                                                                    Even worse, the media issues that can motivate change comes in waves. The consumers want to see something right away. The patient, clever companies can use those little actions to give the easily-distracted consumer the appearance of something getting done. Then, the delays give the corporation a chance to wait the media wave out. When it passes, they might get to go right back to their schemes while consumers are focusing on other issues.

                                                                                                                              1. 43

                                                                                                                                I hosted my own e-mail server from 1995 until 2004, when I switched exclusively to GMail. I’m planning on migrating back to a privately hosted server, and this is the exact thing I worry about - important mail quietly disappearing because it isn’t coming from one of the main service providers:

                                                                                                                                Google has blocked personal messages to friends and family in multiple languages, as well as business mail.

                                                                                                                                This quote is what really got me:

                                                                                                                                Unfortunately, email is starting to become synonymous with Google’s mail, and Google’s machines have decided that mail from my server is simply not worth receiving. Being a good administrator and a well-behaved player on the network is no longer enough.

                                                                                                                                I can’t agree more with that sentiment, and as time goes on it can be applied to ever more of the Internet.

                                                                                                                                I’m sure there is no malicious intent behind this

                                                                                                                                I’m not as confident about that. I understand the whole “don’t attribute to malice..” concept, but this seems to fit the Google business model, which is to use hegemony to drive more traffic through Google. Apathy could also be construed as malice in that context.

                                                                                                                                1. 16

                                                                                                                                  I agree with you. Obviously, I don’t think there is any intention to hurt anyone, but they definitely want as many people on their platform as possible; what they’re doing now helps with that.

                                                                                                                                  The only thing I can do is recommend that people get off GMail. Use another service, like ProtonMail or FastMail. Better yet, people should host their own!

                                                                                                                                  1. 13

                                                                                                                                    Better yet, people should host their own!

                                                                                                                                    I don’t know if that’s a good idea. Email hosting is hard and requires some amount of expertise. It’s all fun and games until SpamAssassin craps out on you, and then you can spend the money from Mr. Mantu, a royal from Nigeria temporarily unable to access his funds, on a penis enlargement.

                                                                                                                                    I’ve noticed that I’ve been getting a lot more spam with FastMail in the last year or so (I’ve been using it for the last 6 years or so). It’s not a huge amount (a few every week), but consistent and enough to be annoying.

                                                                                                                                    Going back to the OP’s post, this seems like “standard” spam filtering. People from, say, Russia or China are probably penalized to some degree as well if you’re from the states or EU. It’s unfortunate, but if it shares proprieties with emails that look like spam then it has a chance of being classified as such. It’s not just gmail that’s really opaque about this. We had some problems with Yahoo! last year and they were just as “helpful” as gmail.

                                                                                                                                    There’s been two other discussions about this in the last few weeks, and the thinking of some people about that is a bit, ehh, out there? Spam filtering is just really hard. I don’t think Google is going out of their way to block anyone like some people are suggesting.

                                                                                                                                    What we really need is a better solution for spam instead of all this Baysian/ML stuff. It was a great quick fix in 2003, but it hasn’t been for a long time.

                                                                                                                                    1. 13

                                                                                                                                      90% of the spam I receive uses the subject line of the week. It’s actually trivial to filter with nothing more than a subject line match with occasional updates. But I’ve learned different people seem to attract different spam types.

                                                                                                                                      1. 9

                                                                                                                                        Yes and 10% can still be a lot of spam.

                                                                                                                                      2. 5

                                                                                                                                        I don’t know if that’s a good idea. Email hosting is hard and requires some amount of expertise.

                                                                                                                                        It used to be very hard because of all the reasons you mentioned, but containers have changed the game. Check out Poste.io (lobsters discussion).

                                                                                                                                        1. 14

                                                                                                                                          Given the large number of pretty silly bugs in router firmwares, proprietary firewalls, etc. I don’t think these kind of “entire distro in a container” things are somehow inherently more secure. Worst was probably Cisco last month. They fixed a bunch of exploits in their Enterprise Firewalls by … blocking the curl user agent that was used in the proof-of-concepts.

                                                                                                                                          If anything, pre-built containers make things harder because now you have no idea what’s going on, making it easier to make mistakes. That thing in particular doesn’t even have a source as far as I can see (only issue tracker on BitBucket). You’re supposed to just run a random Docker container … :-/

                                                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                                                            doesn’t even have a source

                                                                                                                                            You can inspect docker containers.

                                                                                                                                            1. 7

                                                                                                                                              That’s not the same. Have you ever taken over a running system from someone else? There are always almost surprises (not that it’s configured “bad”, just different from what you expected/are used to).

                                                                                                                                          2. 5

                                                                                                                                            Yes, but don’t use Poste.io (see the discussion for why).

                                                                                                                                            Good alternatives are mailcow and mailu.

                                                                                                                                          3. 2

                                                                                                                                            Using a solution like mailroute helps. It may a little pricey for hobbyists, but it works amazingly keeping spam at bay.

                                                                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                                                                              Any braindead person including myself can set up mailcow-dockerized which works out of the box. No know-how required. Docs are very good as well. It gives you really cool web interfaces, 2fa, spam aliases and a ton of other features.

                                                                                                                                              https://github.com/mailcow/mailcow-dockerized

                                                                                                                                            2. 4

                                                                                                                                              I run my own email server, but with comments like these it’s no wonder everybody is simply giving up and letting Google run the show.

                                                                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                                                                Email has become unreliable for me as a result of hosting my own mail server, for the past 18 years, gmail has not been particularly bad for me that I am aware of, but hotmail and office365 based email is a major problem…

                                                                                                                                                Saying host your own mail is not the answer unfortunately.

                                                                                                                                              2. 5

                                                                                                                                                I ran into similar problems as in the OP, albeit with Microsoft (outlook.com) and not with Google. I found a solution that works for me: I pay for an SMTP relay. This way I can have my own mail server, but all mail I send out is submitted to the SMTP relay, which then does the actual transmission to the target mail server. The persons operating the SMTP relay have done a nice job, so far. I had not yet any mail blocked since I use it (since beginning of this year).

                                                                                                                                                1. 5

                                                                                                                                                  Which relay do you use?

                                                                                                                                                  My personal email server also gets all mails to outlook.com shadowbanned

                                                                                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                                                                                    Amazon SES is a few cents per month

                                                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                                                      Do you happen to have any resources about using SES as an SMTP relay?

                                                                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                                                                        There’s not much to it. The website gives you some DNS entries/SMTP credentials to use, then the config is just:

                                                                                                                                                        table ses_credentials file:/etc/mail/ses_credentials
                                                                                                                                                        action relay_ses relay host smtp+tls://ses@email-smtp.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com auth <ses_credentials>
                                                                                                                                                        match auth from any for any action relay_ses
                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                        where ses_credentials contains ses user:pw (man table and search for relay).

                                                                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                                                                          Forgive my ignorance, that doesn’t look like sendmail or postfix config, what mail server is that exactly?

                                                                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                                                                            OpenSMTPD!

                                                                                                                                                    2. 3

                                                                                                                                                      I use mysmtp.com, a Danish relay provider. They contract with consumers as well and advertise with GDPR compliance.

                                                                                                                                                  2. 2

                                                                                                                                                    If it were not for this problem, I would see a bright future in hacking the IMAP standard to provide all sorts of value adds. Just one example, you could own an email domain and provide a custom address for every web-site registration or other one-off applications. Then you could track the content sent back to those addresses and learn something about how the original recipient treats your email address. Alas, gmail has a monopoly on value added information via IMAP. Would be great if some smart lawyer found an anti-trust case here.

                                                                                                                                                  1. 9

                                                                                                                                                    This is no surprise, and if someone uses Facebook, they shouldn’t be surprised either.

                                                                                                                                                    It’s like walking into a pizza shop and being angry that they sell pizza… if you use Facebook, they will use and “steal” and “leak” all the info they can on you (and probably even if you don’t use Facebook).

                                                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                                                      Exactly. The other orange site is full of ‘news’ like this article.

                                                                                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                                                                                        It’s true, the news about Facebook is everywhere. I do think it’s still important to share these things though, so those that haven’t left Facebook and (somehow) don’t know these things will be informed.

                                                                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                                                                          Are there really people on lobste.rs or the orange site that don’t already know this? I would say they all do, and the idioms “preaching to the choir” and “beating a dead horse” immediately come to mind when I see this posted in such forums. Perhaps all this effort is better spent informing those who are not “in the know”…

                                                                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                                                                            At least from what I see it seems there are some people on the orange site who defends Facebook.

                                                                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                                                                              So is the idea then to get 100% consensus on sites that tech people waste time on before making any attempts to educate the general populous? I guess it’s easier to circlejerk about it with your friends than it is to move on and try to convince others on the ‘outside’.

                                                                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                No idea where you got that idea from, even after re-reading my post.