1. 2

    Nice! Avy is fantastic, it takes vim-like cursor movement to another level. I find it especially useful when when I’ve got multiple buffer windows open and want to jump between different parts of them.

    1. 2

      Gun also supports websockets, something I’d like to explore more. It’s good to see an example of some of its features used in Elixir!

      1. 6

        Your comment made me realize I totally forgot to tag Elixir too! We mostly use Hackney right now (via Tesla) and we’ve generally been happy, but I’d be pretty excited to see a Gun adapter.

        1. 1

          Testla is AWESOME and so is Hackney.

      1. 7

        A poor name choice for a distributed technology, if they want it to be googlable… thought this was something about erlang at first.

        1. 0

          This. Do people no longer Google words before choosing them? A cursory search would’ve provided them the suggestion “beam” isn’t the best choice in name

        1. 2

          Sounds like API keys were stored unencrypted. Their exposure could have been potentially mitigated by encrypting them with an asymmetrical key, where the decryption key is only on a separate locked-down server that performs the API interactions.

          1. 3

            If you’re interested in this, I also recommend checking out overtone: http://overtone.github.io/

            There are some really neat live coding sessions on YouTube using it.

            1. 2

              Yeah, I love Overtone! Actually, I used it to make a weird mouse grid synthesizer thing as a school project. Very fun (although kinda embarrassing to look back on).

              I’m a bit interested in SOUL in case it’s easier to make it work on Android somehow, but who knows.

            1. 9

              It’s a trick question, the answer is never!

              1. 34

                I’m very strongly in favour of objective, civil, polite discourse. I don’t think anything is gained by penalising people if their tone is a little abrasive.

                To be blunt (in full acceptance of the irony here) I would much rather that people post abrasive content than risk them self-censoring for fear of appearing “unkind”. I’m afraid that lobste.rs would cease being a haven for constructive discussion, and become some sort of Stepford-esque echo chamber instead.

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                  You can disagree with something without being a jerk about it. I think that’s something we should all aspire to.

                  1. 11

                    I agree (and think that “being a jerk” is quite a different thing to “being abrasive”, but maybe that’s just my reading of the terms).

                    However, I’ll take “abrasive and correct” over “nice but wrong” any day of the week, and I fear that encouraging downvotes over tone will result in the loss of some of the former.

                    1. 7

                      I’ll take “abrasive and correct” over “nice but wrong” any day of the week, and I fear that encouraging downvotes over tone will result in the loss of some of the former.

                      Fortunately, these are not the only two options. An ideal solution would discourage the “abrasive and correct” in favor of the “non-abrasive and correct.” In such an environment, “nice and wrong” comments are welcome because they spark informative discussions.

                      1. 2

                        Which is why a downvote, as they’re currently implemented, isn’t a good solution. Some sort of separate flag might be, though. Provide an easy way for readers to nudge posters to edit their posts for tone.

                        1. 1

                          “Nice and wrong” comments that require other people to expend effort to correct them are not kind.

                          1. 6

                            The “incorrect” flag covers those, however.

                        2. 4

                          Perhaps the “unkind” vote should have zero affect on karma, but still deprioritize the comment? That way it’s less likely to generate feelings of defensive?

                          1. 4

                            Being unkind seems very karma-related to me

                            1. 4

                              It could just be some CSS that provides visual feedback from the downvote action to the voter. Like a big red mechanical button that isn’t wired up to anything, but feels satisfying to press.

                          2. 6

                            You certainly can. But anger and frustration, like other human emotions, have circumstances where they are objectively justified and reasonable. One would say that in software development, for example, we aren’t really facing the questions of life and death, and getting worked up about something like that is silly. I agree that a lot of anger in comment sections is, indeed, silly – but not all of it.

                            Let me bring an example. Recently I found out that one company, which is developing a technology which have been my main “specialisation” since 2012, have decided to move around different modules and in the process deleted documentation for one of it - so from new version on, instead of automatically generated API specification, with all classes and methods, I would have to refer to guides, organised by topic. This change is completely unnecessary, and will make my day-to-day work much harder. I spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, at my job, and something that they have done will make me a little bit more miserable, every day. And they don’t even have any reason for it. And a forum post that I’ve written, with detailed explanation of the issue, and then tweeted at them, have gone without a single reply.

                            Now, if I would encounter the person who was responsible for this decision here in the comments in a relevant thread, I think that venting my frustration, while staying civilised, would be an appropriate response. Don’t you?

                            1. 6

                              And yet, being direct is often seen as being unkind. I’m strongly against ranking people on kindness – in addition to being very vague, the norms are highly cultural.

                              I sometimes wonder if we’d be better of getting rid of votes entirely, and rely on people using their words.

                              1. 6

                                highly cultural

                                But surely we’re seeking to build a lobste.rs culture?

                              2. 2

                                100% agreed. In my experience you’re also more likely to effectively get your argument across. However, it is a skill that requires effort to learn and apply – at least in my case.

                                1. 1

                                  but you can’t guarantee that people will interpret your politeness as such

                                2. 38

                                  I would much rather that people post abrasive content than risk them self-censoring for fear of appearing “unkind”. I’m afraid that lobste.rs would cease being a haven for constructive discussion

                                  The opposite is also true: some people stop posting after too many negative interactions, which also reduces participation.

                                  You call it “censorship”. Frankly, I’m starting to strongly dislike this term. It’s carelessly thrown around far too often. Every community has social norms, and online communities are no exception. If I’m an asshole to my friends then at some point they’ll start shunning me. If I join a football club (or scout group, or choir, or whatever) and act like an asshole then sooner or later I’ll be asked not to come next week. Would you call this “censorship”? I wouldn’t.

                                  I stopped posting on /r/programming at reddit after being called a “moron”, “idiot”, “retard”, accused of having an IQ lower than 65, was told that I “fucking suck at making software (and I guess generally anything)”, was told that my opinion was “hates speech” in two separate recent incidents (both over a technical disagreement, wtf?!), and just general unconstructive/aggressive/belittling/etc. word choice.

                                  It’s not that I’m that sensitive, but if you spend a lot of time writing a weblog post, or make some software, and you get told any of the above (which are all real quotes) then that’s … not great. It’s not that I get angry or “offended”, but it’s also not fun and if it happens a few times I’ll stop coming back (as happened on /r/programming). I think most people participate in these communities just for the fun of it. Sure, you also learn new stuff, but I think fun is an important – if not the most important – part for many.

                                  Constructive discussion can only happen if everyone feels like they can participate without the fear of being mistreated (belittling, aggressive replies, insults, etc.) If there is such a fear, then I will guarantee you that some people simply won’t post at all.

                                  I’m not sure (yet) if a flag is a good idea here for other reasons (I’ll make another top-level comment about that), but I do (strongly) disagree with your sentiment.

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                                    I definitely use this site less over time because of the loud frequent posters who often carelessly put down people with insensitive wording. When I was junior I was able to justify spending the emotional energy listening to technically correct jerks, but nowadays it’s pretty rare that I get anything other than anger out of their childish communication. I only come on lobste.rs now when I’ve got pretty high emotional buffers, because otherwise it’s likely to just make me feel worse.

                                    1. 7

                                      I’ve only been here for a few months, so I can’t comment on Lobste.rs specifically, but I can comment on two general observations:

                                      • Often >90% of the problems come from ~1% of the people.
                                      • As a community becomes larger, it becomes harder to manage because mods don’t see most of what’s going on (making it harder to identify patterns).

                                      In many ways it’s the same as traffic; if you drive or cycle home you may encounter 100 drivers, so if just 1% is reckless driver then you’ll meet one most days. Also, like traffic, it’s hard to completely remove these people unless they commit gross offences. You can break traffic laws and be reckless for pretty much your entire life, and suffer very few consequences.

                                      Most of us act like an asshole sometimes; I know I do; I have pretty strong feelings about certain political topics, and sometimes I just have a bad day. But I’m not consistently an asshole. I think they key here is not to look at individual comments too much, but rather at long-standing patterns. There are just a few mods here, and they probably don’t see most of what’s going on. So the ability to see things like “hey, this user is responsible for 28% of all unkind flags” is the critical bit.

                                      I don’t know if this needs to be tied to downvoting. Could just be a separate flag. I don’t think it matters too much, as long as there’s an admin panel to see an overview.

                                    2. 6

                                      This is exactly what happened to Slashdot too. The loudest, most aggressive users gradually took over the comment section, and the more rational voices left. That site is now a quagmire of hate speech. I think it is a good idea to get ahead of it on this site, because it could happen here too. I like the discussion environment of this site, and I don’t want to lose yet another community.

                                      I think that the idea of shadowbanning from reddit could be combined with the stack overflow style of flagging bad behavior. If nobody can see abusive or trollish comments, then they don’t accumulate comments and effectively don’t exist (i.e., not rewarding bad behavior). Those users will either correct their behavior or stop posting altogether.

                                      1. 3

                                        I’m sorry you experienced that behaviour. I have myself, largely for holding unpopular political opinions[1] . It’s even more fun when people attack those positions in a social situation, before realising that someone in the group actually holds them :)

                                        The behaviour you describe crosses way beyond “abrasive” to downright abusive. I’d be okay with a flat out ban in the case of someone who called another poster a retard, for example.

                                        By “abrasive” I mean posts that might be terse, strongly critical, or dismissive. That is, posts that have issues with tone. Things that could be charitably interpreted as well intentioned.

                                        [1] I guess you’d call them Objectivist, for want of a better term. Strongly socially and economically liberal. The former is common in Australian tech circles, the latter rare. People here usually assume party-political alignment, so if you’re say in favour of open immigration, they assume you’re also in favour of progressive taxation.

                                        1. 1

                                          The reddit example is of course much more extreme than anything I’ve seen here; but it does clearly illustrate the point that people can stop posting (“self-censor”) due to lack of moderation, too.

                                          By “abrasive” I mean posts that might be terse, strongly critical, or dismissive. That is, posts that have issues with tone. Things that could be charitably interpreted as well intentioned.

                                          A good rule-of-thumb is whether a comment makes you go sigh, “eh”, “pff”, or something similar, either by actually saying it or saying it “in your head”. You can be critical of what someone said and not evoke such a response. My previous comment was critical of your post, but I don’t think if evoked a “pff” response (or at least, I hope it didn’t!) but it’s not hard to imagine that it could with some stuff rephrased.

                                          I know this is murky and unclear, but that’s the way language works, especially in a global community with different cultures, etc.

                                          I think the key thing here is that “abrasiveness” accumulates. If you encounter an abrasive comment on occasion then that’s okay. Most people are abrasive some of the time (I know I am); that’s just the way things work. The problem is when people are abrasive most of the time, and you encounter abrasive everywhere you look.

                                          I don’t think singular abrasive comments are a problem, or that people should be punished for it. But if they’re constantly making them then there is a problem that should be addressed. Also see my other reply in this thread: https://lobste.rs/s/xnjo8g/add_downvote_reason_unkind#c_kqtuqr

                                          Analogy: Lobste.rs keeps track of “self promoters”; people who frequently post links to their own websites. Is this preventing people from submitting links to their own site? Not really; but it does help keep track of people who spam links too frequently. I think a potential “unkind flag” should work the same way.

                                        2. 2

                                          “Censorship” is certainly an overused weasel-word nowadays. Moderation is (generally) not censorship.

                                        3. 9

                                          Just to clarify, this kind of “bluntness” is of course perfectly acceptable. If you’d labeled my suggestion a “crap idea” on the other hand…

                                          1. 4

                                            And that’s the rub, isn’t it? I have no problem with having my ideas called crap, but don’t like calling people “crap”. Others might be more sensitive than you, and then you have a ratchet that moves in only one direction, as people say less, challenge each other less, and so on.

                                          2. 4

                                            Just to piggy-back on this a bit. I wholeheartedly applaud the heart behind this suggestion, I prefer that the tone be kept civil and polite here. However, kind/unkind might be a bit too subjective and might unwittingly stifle conversation. My concern is that for one person, a simple disagreement with an idea could be deemed “unkind” regardless of tone. My skin might be a little thinner, so my unkind trigger finger might be more prone to fire. I think troll covers abrasive behavior and perhaps some kind of flag could be used to alert moderators when issues arise and tone sinks too low in a conversation.

                                          1. 7

                                            It’s a slippery slope for any disagreement to be viewed as “unkind” if it’s not completely defanged of tone.

                                            On the internet, padded rooms paradoxically seem to echo more, not less.

                                            We should strive to be excellent to each-other, and for mean-spirited comments that are specifically to rile someone up and get attention, we already have the troll tag. Pointing out that somebody is wrong without dancing around it is a very necessary act sometimes though, and we shouldn’t be biasing people towards agreement for the sake of not getting downvoted. Discourse without disagreement becomes very boring very quickly.

                                            1. 4

                                              I have read Literate Programming by Knuth (it’s on the shelf next to me) but I never warmed to the idea (one reason: the 1 AM scenario). Another reason, programs change over time. I’ve been working on the same project at work for over eight years and the code has morphed over time to support more and more features (and dealing with all the possible interactions), despite what we do being rather simple (at call time, we get a phone number, we return a name associated with that phone number). It’s less “cool algorithm” and more “convoluted business logic” (determining who gets the plain information, who gets the extended information, who gets the reputation information, etc.) that gets more convoluted as time and features go on.

                                              I’ve found that the diagram I have on my whiteboard showing what features do what more informative than a lengthy text document describing the same thing. I also have a simplified diagram of how our components talk to each other (“simplified” by showing only one instance of each component, instead of the umpteen number of As, the many Bs, and the zillions of Cs).

                                              1. 3

                                                Yeah, I totally understand that perspective. I don’t know if it’s how my brain’s wired, but I personally find well written prose to be one of the most helpful things when trying to understand something. The process of writing prose to describe code is even more helpful, to be honest. Maybe the answer isn’t either or, but a little of both?

                                                1. 2

                                                  Lately I’ve been writing documentation for unfamiliar & undocumented systems, and I have to agree that the process is very helpful for learning. Something about writing things down in an organized and coherent way seems to force you to make sense of how things work. I guess that’s kind of like taking notes, now that I think about it…

                                              1. 0

                                                Have you tried nootropic drugs like caffeine or modafinil? I hear conflicting things about whether or not they actually work, and I suspect it’s different for different people, but it might be worth a shot if you feel like there’s a biological limitation of your brain preventing you from achieving your goals. You might try looking at: https://www.gwern.net/Nootropics for instance to learn more about them.

                                                1. 4

                                                  I guess that would be a solution but I’m not entirely comfortable relying on drugs to get work done. I run into a tolerance issue with caffeine and operate better without it. I have not taken modafinil but I’ll look into gwern. Thanks.

                                                  1. 2

                                                    Just so you know this isn’t the kind of advice a parent would approve of, and depending on your brains could ruin them.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      Came here to say this. I decided long ago that while I might be able to do more with certain chemicals, I was not willing to go any more extreme than caffeine and alcohol, and even those in careful moderation.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Yes I have personally found that it’s easy to go to far even with caffeine and have mostly eliminated it from my diet. I’m more reliably productive and in my humble opinion reliable productivity provides greater yields in the long term than unreliable spikes of productivity.

                                                    2. 1

                                                      Other nootropics of note include: eating well, exercising, and meditating! Gwern’s site is very interesting though if you’ve got time for some reading.

                                                    3. 2

                                                      This is one of those bits of advice that might solve the stated problem but doesn’t address the underlying problem of a herculean effort invested in a bad strategy. Putting more effort in does nothing to address the bad strategy :P.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Modafinil is not very useful. It mostly makes you not want to sleep, and I use it while driving very tired as a safety measure. Short-term though, it might not be a bad idea to try out.

                                                        Caffeine is similar in this regard, although in general it doesn’t have any strong effects on me, which seems to be a YMMV thing–others report differently.

                                                        I have no idea what to chalk up my periods of improved mood and/or efficiency to, but they don’t have a clear relation to chemicals like these.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Yes, I’m experiencing the same, and it’s tiring. I also tend to forget quite a few day-to-day things outside of development, when focusing on a project for a while.

                                                        1. 1

                                                          If you have an Android phone I highly recommend Habits for day-to-day things / developing good habits. You get tight control over the intervals for each habit (do dishes every 2nd day, make dinner 6 out of 7 days, etc) and visibility on how you’re doing over time.

                                                        1. 17

                                                          Remember, tomorrow is the day when the whole internet goes nuts. (Check the date.)

                                                          1. 15

                                                            I’m not sure how much I would trust a distro that ‘pranks’ users by crying wolf about being compromised.

                                                            1. 2

                                                              I might be inclined to trust such a distro more

                                                              1. 3

                                                                They’d be the most honest or among them.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  Why?

                                                              2. 4

                                                                In many parts of the world it is already that day..

                                                              1. 3

                                                                Anyone know of a good android gopher client?

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  Only in F-Droid, but Pocket Gopher is nice. On the Google market there is dingo diggy or named like that, which works as well

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    Yeah, DiggieDog is pretty decent

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      what

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  This was very cool but then I tried to zoom and Android Firefox puked.

                                                                  1. 9

                                                                    this is truly sad, but it also proves how important projects like the internet archive are for humanity.

                                                                    1. 12

                                                                      The question is, who should pay for those archives?

                                                                      Sweden has a long-standing law that each book published here has to provide copy to KB (Royal Library). In the 1920s, with the rise of radio and movies, this law was expanded to sound and video too.

                                                                      All this stuff is a massive boon to researchers and part of our cultural heritage. But it comes at a not insignificant cost.

                                                                      1. 3

                                                                        I would say that is a question, not the question. =)

                                                                        I would also argue that governments are probably not the right people/entities to be archiving raw content for free and public use as history has shown us time and again why that doesn’t work. In my limited dealings with the internet archive, it seems as though they are funded to a point where the mission is well and alive, although I’m sure they would say more would be better.

                                                                        1. 9

                                                                          I would also argue that governments are probably not the right people/entities to be archiving raw content for free and public use as history has shown us time and again why that doesn’t work.

                                                                          how so?

                                                                          1. 6

                                                                            I’m also confused by that comment. I always generally thought that the Library of Congress was fairly successful. Unless GP was speaking about spans multiple millennia, in which case I doubt a company dedicated to preserving anything would outlive most nation states.

                                                                            1. 2

                                                                              I can’t speak for dallas, but a historical precedent that supports his position is the decline of the Library of Alexandria. The Nazi book burnings are a more intentional example.

                                                                              That said, distributed & immutable archival of documents could make it so that it doesn’t matter as much who the archiving entities are.

                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                This is an argument for distribution, not necessarily against state management. Most larger countries have rules similar to Sweden, which practically means that all media published in multiple states are automatically archived multiple times.

                                                                                Considering that archiving is a task that most government organisations have the most experience and practice in, I’m hard pressed to throw that idea out. There’s quite a high bar to reach to even archive better than the most underfunded of government orgs.

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  I can’t speak for dallas, but a historical precedent that supports his position is the decline of the Library of Alexandria. The Nazi book burnings are a more intentional example.

                                                                                  I really don’t know what you mean. This is an argument that governments are not the best entities to archive and preserve works?

                                                                              2. 1

                                                                                OK conceded, a question.

                                                                                Maybe ISPs could just pledge to fund the Internet Archive is a small percentage of revenue, or have a formal agreement to donate hardware and bandwidth. But ultimately, it’s going to be a hard corporate decision to pay to host some punk bands 10 year old songs about vomit.

                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                  yah, that’s not a bad idea. =)

                                                                            2. 7

                                                                              When music piracy was thriving, even most obscure albums was distributed to multiple nodes and was readily available in various networks. This included music that was initially released by (usually underground) artists for free. In the age of streaming services most people even deleted their old collections or didn’t migrate them from old PCs.

                                                                              Moreover, as streaming services grow in popularity, I observe loss of interest to obscure/rare music, now many people only want “new, fresh and trendy”, this includes not only pop music made by large corporations, but indie and even outright underground projects too, but those who by random factors reached popularity on internet, and this popularity lasts for a very short time. Myspace, being a streaming service (if I understand it right, I never figured out how to use it, with its arcane UI), could be large company now, but missed this opportunity, mostly due to horrible UX and lack of focus.

                                                                            1. 4

                                                                              I would be interested in a DSP tag.

                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                release tag would be helpful here.

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  I was on the fence about it because technically this is pre-release…

                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                  Congrats on the release!

                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                    Thanks!

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    My main question: is it pronounced “futt hark”, “footh ark”, or “futh ark”?

                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                      Etymologically, foo-thark, with th pronounced as in the. But fut-ark is also common.

                                                                                    1. 6

                                                                                      Even better would be if he put it in a fake power strip enclosure or in a wall wart.