Threads for lm

  1. 17

    Another person who can’t tell the difference between their own preferences and universal experiences.

    1. 14

      Please attempt to make an argument rather than a single-sentence hot-take, especially one that isn’t grounded in the article and is instead just lazy character assassination.

      The author introduces the rest of the writeup by saying:

      I want to make a developer-centric argument that the current state of majority remote working is bad, not because it is bad for your company or for your salary but because it is not best for yours and others mental well being.

      If you want to argue with any of the core claims, I’d expect something addressing the parts about:

      • Knowing our colleagues making our work more meaningful (and the implied assertion that this is not doable for remote colleagues)
      • Working remote causing less of a feeling of “belonging” in an org
      • Working remote has blurred the boundaries of what is work and what is leisure time
      • Working remote allows for too much distraction

      It is totally reasonable to refute or disagree with any of those claims from the article-but on the other hand, a lazy dismissal is corrosive to the discussion culture of this site.

      1. 6

        This isn’t lazy character assassination, my analysis of this article is that the author cannot distinguish between their preferences and universal experiences. It may be the case that your experiences match the author, and I hope both of you can enjoy the office without those of us who never wanted to be in the office.

        Are you sure your comment to me isn’t a reflection of personal dislike?

        1. 0

          my analysis of this article is that the author cannot distinguish between their preferences and universal experiences.

          Please show me this analysis. What statements in the article lead you to that belief? What reasoning are you using?

          I mean this quite honestly and without attempt at meanness: do you not see why I made my objection?

          1. 2

            Neither you nor anyone else is owed the chain of reasoning by which someone arrived at their opinion on an article. And as I pointed out in a different reply to you, this topic is one that gets extremely repetitive extremely quickly. So if you truly and genuinely are interested in learning more about the arguments, you will have little difficulty finding previous iterations of discussion on similar articles across a wide variety of sites, courtesy of your preferred search engine.

            For the moment, your behavior comes across as, at best, back-seat moderating. If you believed the comment violated site rules, you should have simply flagged it and moved on.

        2. 6

          At this point the “working remote is bad for you!” argument is just incredibly repetitive. It basically boils down to: yes, we understand that the author is the sort of person who relied on the traditional office environment to make them happy and effective, but not everybody thrived in that environment and not everybody suffers now as a result of it no longer being the automatic default.

          What more is there to say after that, really? The author seems to be yet another in a long line of authors of these articles, not saying anything particularly new or different and not really breaking out of the mold of extrapolating from I liked and thrived on these aspects of office culture to therefore everyone must have thrived on them and suffers now that they’re gone, when the latter is not at all true.

          At this stage it’s clear that forcing everyone back to the office full-time is a non-starter. I suggest that the author learn to accept this, make the most of available “hybrid” environments, and perhaps along the way develop some empathy for those of us who did not thrive in traditional office environments but were forced into them for years on end anyway, and who wouldn’t have been taken seriously if we wrote “why working in an office is bad for you!” articles.

        3. 6

          Yet I think there are some good points in there. Especially the risk of burnout/overworking is elevated when working remotely in my own experience.

          It is good to bring out the possible negatives of this arrangement, even if most of the people WFH are happy about the change.

          I think it will take up to 5-10 years for people to realize what they have lost with WFH.

          1. 4

            Where’s the evidence that people overwork when working remotely? It’s certainly not my experience, but again my personal experience is also not universal nor necessarily representative.

            1. 3

              Risk is elevated as you associate the same environment you live in to your work. It can become harder to ”get away from work mode”.

              1. 4

                I wonder how much of that is based on the novelty of remote work for a lot of people. I’ve been working remotely for most of a decade and over time, as remote work has become a totally routine, unremarkable part of my lifestyle, I’ve found it’s gotten much easier to switch out of work mode at the end of the day without having to physically move to a different part of the house. (Muting Slack notifications at the end of the day helps!)

                1. 1

                  This is why I made a point of having a room in my flat that’s the designated office that I never spend time in unless I’m working. Out of the home office, brain off for the day.

                  1. 5

                    The problem with WFH is that not everyone can afford to pay the high rent of an extra room (and another for your spouse) which is a cost saving for your employer but a big cost for you unless you are prepared to move to a rural or suburban area for the benefit of your employer.

                    1. 4

                      This is my situation in a nutshell. I hate working in open-plan offices – but I hate it less than having work take over my tiny little apartment.

                    2. 3

                      I could say “Another person who can’t tell the difference between their own preferences and universal experiences.” to you :)

                      1. 3

                        You could, and you’d be incorrect. The article makes claims about “tech workers” in general, and therefore your comment would make sense there. I’m talking about my experiences, and at no point in time did I generalise to anyone else. This is what works for me, which refutes “what tech workers are missing”. If going to the office works for someone else, good for them.

                        1. 3

                          If you did, what would your point be?

                          1. 2

                            As discussed in other branch, not everybody has access to a extra office room at their home, nor have peaceful enough environment for concentrated work.

                            For me the office is much more quiet place to focus on work and I have much better computer setup there. I don’t really even use computers at home that often.

              1. 2

                Personally I prefer a hybrid model and wouldn’t want to have a full WFH or WFO. I have done full time WFH and WFO previously.

                It is interesting that people have this strong reaction to this post, both here and in HN. I feel that people might be a bit scared to lose the new benefit they gained during the pandemic?

                1. 2

                  Yes, because for many people it is a benefit. I was full remote with available office before the pandemic, and it was obviously superior for me even then.

                  I have a minority of coworkers who miss the office. My one teammate who likes the office tells me that not even our sales people are generally in the office. This probably reflects that the company was remote optional all along for most roles.

                  1. 2

                    Just because something is superior doesn’t mean it cant have flaws. And I am not either suggesting you should stop WFH if it works for you.

                1. 9

                  I knew it a few seconds in, but I listened on 1.75x in the background… then he finally gets there that the folks who got rms to resign were complaining about stuff not worth mentioning by name which indeed was part of a national scandal.

                  Centering in part on a WWII era center of American thought MIT, the scandal over Epstein, over dehumanizing women’s lived experience, wasn’t a joke scandal. The acts of RMS for years were bugging people out, in ways that if he’d done them to fellow men, fellow young men, he probably would’ve gotten booted years ago. But here in this video it doesn’t even merit mention by name, only vague reference.

                  Being excellent to each other means replacing missing stairs.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair

                  1. 4

                    I think there are two separate issues here: what RMS said and did, and the mob reaction that forced him out. Maybe both are wrong.

                    1. 3

                      There was no mob reaction, let alone a ‘linux users mob’ That’s really the crux of it. The video assumes Linux users had some majority agency in removing him, when in fact he was booted because no organization can have someone like that associated with them. It’s common decency not Linux community decency that forced him out. No mob of any sort needed.

                    2. 5

                      If I’m ever in the mood for reading toxic rhetoric (which never happens), I go read RMS. While the things you listed are important, I never really knew about them until the mob happened, because I chose to ignore him.

                      Anyway, toxic rhetoric is exactly the thing that polarizes our world and turns everyone into abominable villains. Toxic rhetoric starts wars and tears communities apart. So in my book, toxic rhetoric alone is enough to get anyone fired.

                      1. 4

                        Yeah I don’t get why some people insist on defending Richard Stallman after his:

                        • pedophilia support
                        • untoward behaviors towards women
                        • utter lack of humility bordering on parody

                        It often makes me think the RMS defenders really think that low of women and that their only code is the bro code. As a woman in technology, it makes me feel somewhat jaded. Just because someone does good things doesn’t excuse them from acting like a human being. :-/ It feels more that people like me are perfectly fine to sacrifice as long as some figure head gets his adoration. And that bothers me a lot.

                        1. 25

                          RMS never supported pedophilia. I actually read the supposed evidence. They are thoughts/questions, admittedly naive, on the subject of unintended consequences of laws (evidence against pedosexual activity being itself illegal) and whether non-coercive, mutually beneficial, pedosexual activity, could, in principle, be possible.

                          Also, please don’t use the term ‘pedophilia’ here. Pedosexual activity is child abuse and that is what is wrong, not ‘pedophilia’. We should encourage people to come forward as pedophiles to counselors and therapists so they can learn to live with a -philia that they must never follow up on. Shaming them for their feelings or even calling them evil merely for their feelings only makes the risk greater.

                          1. 18

                            pedophilia support

                            It was a single philosophical blog banter that he later retracted. Calling it a support is a far far stretch.

                            untoward behaviors towards women

                            Am I missing something or all he did was literaly ask out women on dates? Is that bad?

                            Stallman is weird in many ways but to consider him to be a malicious monster is ridiculous.

                            1. 5

                              He’s an awkward, clearly aspergers guy that asked some women out on dates quite awkwardly. That’s ‘untoward behaviour towards women’ today.

                            2. 27

                              When I did initially read about it, I was quite skeptic, particularly as I had recently seen many cases of mob justice gone wrong.

                              Later it blew out of control and I did some digging. It turned out to be nothing else than the usual character assassination some collectives favor. Due to his personality and lack of awareness of current trends, Stallman proved an easy victim.

                              1. 20

                                Hard agree. Unfortunately, this is happening in tech far too often. The free and open source software movements are getting caught in the cross-fire of US politics.

                                1. 4

                                  I disagree. RMS was a seminal contributor to the movement, but there is no reason to pretend that his behavior - which might have acceptable back in the day when computer sciences were a boys club and movies like Revenge of the Nerds were considered funny even though they depict non-consensual sex as a ‘prank’ - is compatible with today’s world.

                                  Epstein’s case is not subject to ‘politics’: the guy was a known pedophile and sex trafficker. There’s not even a point in arguing that. Minsky, who Stallman defended, was well-aware of Epstein’s circumstances and willingly took money from him and sexual favors from one of his victims. One could argue that Stallman was trying to make a ‘philosophical’ argument or playing devil’s advocate, but you’d have to ignore the kind of message that would be sending to any young women or victim of sexual assault in that mailing list: welp, it’s a shame Minsky got caught doing something really bad, let’s just ignore this other victim so we avoid rocking the boat!

                                  1. 14

                                    Epstein’s case is not subject to ‘politics’: the guy was a known pedophile and sex trafficker. There’s not even a point in arguing that. Minsky, who Stallman defended, was well-aware of Epstein’s circumstances and willingly took money from him and sexual favors from one of his victims. One could argue that Stallman was trying to make a ‘philosophical’ argument or playing devil’s advocate, but you’d have to ignore the kind of message that would be sending to any young women or victim of sexual assault in that mailing list: welp, it’s a shame Minsky got caught doing something really bad, let’s just ignore this other victim so we avoid rocking the boat!

                                    It is insane to me that RMS’s opponents would denounce a person for making an argument that a personal friend of theirs is not guilty of a crime, on the grounds that making this argument “sends a message” to people who might see it who are members of a demographic they assume is likely to be a victim of that crime. I’m deliberately not addressing the question of whether or not Stallman’s argument is correct or not, in the context of the actual alleged crime. Maybe he’s wrong and Minsky really was guilty in a legal or moral sense of having illict sex. I’m not sure what I think about Stallman’s argument in context, although I agree with him that something seems morally wrong about charging a person with the crime of statutory rape who was unaware that the person they had sex with was under the age of consent.

                                    I’m not particularly interested in litigating the details of a media-reported crime I have no special information about, and it doesn’t matter in any event. Young women as a demographic, or even actual victims of sexual assault, have no particular right to never see someone argue that a specific sort of sexual encounter wasn’t actually a sexual assault. I refuse to be complicit in condemning RMS for doing so.

                                    1. 2

                                      Do you even understand how society works? Are you arguing that people - in particular people in a position of power in a learning institution - should be able to say whatever comes to their minds, disregarding how other people are going to take what they say?

                                      That’s the kind of behavior that leads to the normalization of behaviors like Minsky’s. The fact that people like RMS are comfortable thinking this is some philosophical riddle we are able to discuss, instead of clearly gross behavior that would creep the fuck out of any young person in the lab, is the problem. This is not someone pondering whether a bear shits in the woods, this is someone defending a 74 year man having sex with people in the age range of his students in front of his students.

                                      Now, if that’s perfectly normal behavior for you, then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe a consultation with a therapist would be a good start (and no, I’m not being an flippant about it).

                                      1. 6

                                        Do you even understand how society works?

                                        I believe this is a bit patronizing.

                                        Are you arguing that people - in particular people in a position of power in a learning institution - should be able to say whatever comes to their minds,

                                        Yes? I believe that anyone should be able to say almost anything. Of course, there are the traditional exceptions for slander and specific incitation of a crime.

                                        disregarding how other people are going to take what they say?

                                        Lacking foresight is no reason to deny someone’s voice.

                                        1. 6

                                          I believe that anyone should be able to say almost anything.

                                          Good argument against arresting someone. None of this is illegal, nor should it be.

                                          Bad argument for leaving someone in charge of the FSF. Figureheads have resigned for less.

                                          1. 3

                                            Being cast out from society is, like it or not, a serious effect. It’s more serious, in many cases, than legal censorship.

                                            1. 2

                                              Not being the head of the FSF any more is not the same thing as being banished.

                                              1. 3

                                                Being ostracised by the community and accused of all manner of wrongthink and wrongdoing based on at best wilful misinterpretation is being banished.

                                                1. 1

                                                  If it works out anything like it worked out for Brian Eich, I’m sure Starman would do fine.

                                                  1. 3

                                                    Brian Eich? Starman?

                                                    Come on if you’re going to participate in the discussion you could make a good faith effort to at least get the names right.

                                                    1. 2

                                                      I agree, but it’s Brendan Eich and Stallman. Starman is someone else entirely.

                                            2. 4

                                              I believe this is a bit patronizing.

                                              But, on the other hand, it isn’t patronizing at all to assume how everyone should behave around people who say things that make them feel unsafe?

                                              Yes? I believe that anyone should be able to say almost anything. Of course, there are the traditional exceptions for slander and specific incitation of a crime.

                                              Sure, and I believe people should be able to fire a co-worker they disagree with or find generally disagreeable.

                                              Lacking foresight is no reason to deny someone’s voice.

                                              ‘Lacking foresight’ is hardly the problem, when there’s an extensive email thread where RMS kept digging deeper and deeper. I could see him lacking foresight before the first email, but by the third reply you’d assume he’d have some hindsight.

                                              1. 3

                                                Lacking foresight is no reason to deny someone’s voice.

                                                Dr. Stallman’s free speech rights have not been infringed in any way.

                                              2. 4

                                                Do you even understand how society works? Are you arguing that people - in particular people in a position of power in a learning institution - should be able to say whatever comes to their minds, disregarding how other people are going to take what they say?

                                                Yes. In fact, providing a space for people to say things that (some) other people take to be offensive is an important function of universities as an institution. This is the purpose of tenure systems, for instance.

                                                That’s the kind of behavior that leads to the normalization of behaviors like Minsky’s. The fact that people like RMS are comfortable thinking this is some philosophical riddle we are able to discuss, instead of clearly gross behavior that would creep the fuck out of any young person in the lab, is the problem.

                                                This isn’t (only) a question over whether some kind of sexual behavior is gross on an abstract philisophical level, it’s a question about whether something a friend of his did in fact or should have have constituted a serious felony under law. Discussing questions of law is absolutely the rightful concern of any citizen. I completely reject the idea that the standard of whether a behavior is moral or not should be based on whether some people claim it makes young people in a lab feel grossed out or not.

                                                This is not someone pondering whether a bear shits in the woods, this is someone defending a 74 year man having sex with people in the age range of his students in front of his students.

                                                I defend this. I explicitly believe that it is possible for a 74 year old man to have sex with someone of the traditional age to go to college (18-22 or so - that is, legal adults!) without either party doing something immoral. In fact, I believed this when I myself was within the ages of 18-22! Again, I refuse to be complicit in condemning someone else for making this kind of argument.

                                                1. 2

                                                  Yes. In fact, providing a space for people to say things that (some) other people take to be offensive is an important function of universities as an institution. This is the purpose of tenure systems, for instance.

                                                  RMS, as a non-tenured member of MIT, should’ve known that didn’t apply to him.

                                                  This isn’t (only) a question over whether some kind of sexual behavior is gross on an abstract philisophical level, it’s a question about whether something a friend of his did in fact or should have have constituted a serious felony under law.

                                                  ‘Gross’ vs. ‘legal’ isn’t abstract in the context he was discussing though. Let’s think of a different example: let’s say someone in an academic context talks about his experiences with prostitutes in a country where that’s legal. Would that be acceptable?

                                                  Just because something is legal, it doesn’t mean discussing it or defending it is appropriate in every context.

                                                  I defend this. I explicitly believe that it is possible for a 74 year old man to have sex with someone of the traditional age to go to college (18-22 or so - that is, legal adults!) without either party doing something immoral. In fact, I believed this when I myself was within the ages of 18-22! Again, I refuse to be complicit in condemning someone else for making this kind of argument.

                                                  Well, we agree to disagree on that. Personally, I feel like there are so many questions about power imbalance embedded in that statement, that it could lead to a loooooong conversation I’m not willing to have seeing as people have been flagging my replies because apparently not defending RMS is a sin or something.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    Yes. In fact, providing a space for people to say things that (some) other people take to be offensive is an important function of universities as an institution. This is the purpose of tenure systems, for instance.

                                                    There is a time and place for this - for example, invited speakers, seminars, lectures. A free-form mailing list for students and faculty would fall outside of this in most contexts - i.e. if some idiots starts spouting Nazi propaganda for trolling purposes, they can be banned from the conversation.

                                                    Dr. Stallman did not have tenure at MIT. In fact, he was not even part of the staff. His office and access to the mailing list was provided as a courtesy.

                                                    This isn’t (only) a question over whether some kind of sexual behavior is gross on an abstract philisophical level, it’s a question about whether something a friend of his did in fact or should have have constituted a serious felony under law.

                                                    The sad part of this is before this happened, I had no idea that Marvin Minsky was mentioned in the Guiffre deposition[1]. Had Dr. Stallman not gone out on the field and broken a lance for him, I would not have to contend with the plausible possibility of him availing himself of sexual favors provided through Epstein.

                                                    I refuse to be complicit in condemning someone else for making this kind of argument.

                                                    One can simultanously agree that Dr. Stallman has and did have a right to make this argument, and also agree with the right of MIT to terminate his unofficial occupancy of an office, and the right of the FSF to remove him from a leadership position[2].

                                                    Free speech is the right of an individual not to be gagged by the state, not an obligation that private parties have to host that speech.

                                                    ______
                                                    

                                                    [1] a deposition isn’t a statement of fact under the law, it’s a document submitted by one party in an ongoing lawsuit.

                                                    [2] as an advocacy group, the FSF is reliant on persuading people to their ideals (and usually soliciting financial donations). A public view (no matter how legally absurd) that their primary spokesperson is a defender of pedofilia is counterproductve to the mission of the FSF.

                                                    1. 4

                                                      Free speech is a principle of good society. Yes it has legal protection in some states but this constant appeal to ‘free speech is just a law stopping the STATE from censoring you’ is pathetic. Should we condone attacks on free speech in other states because it’s not protected by law in China or North Korea? Freedom of expression existed as a principle of a decent society far before it was ever enshrined in legislation. In New Zealand it isn’t even supreme law, essentially just a rule of administrative law and of legal interpretation (interpret ambiguity in favour of rights).

                                                      Nobody is talking about whether MIT had the right to terminate his privileges. That’s not in question, anywhere in this thread. The discussion is around whether it was right to do so.

                                                      1. 2

                                                        Nobody is talking about whether MIT had the right to terminate his privileges. That’s not in question, anywhere in this thread. The discussion is around whether it was right to do so.

                                                        In the narrow circumstances of Epstein’s alleged contributions to Harvard (he also had access to an office there as a private citizen, I believe) which is currently tearing Harvard apart, it was absolutely correct of MIT to defensively cut off Dr. Stallman from access to official MIT facilities and mailing lists. Not doing so would only have hurt MIT’s image (and possible future endowments).

                                                        Note that if Dr. Stallman had been part of the faculty or student body, I would probably not accept MIT’s behavior.

                                                        What is your opinion on the FSF removing him from a leadership position?

                                                  2. 3

                                                    Do you even understand how society works? Are you arguing that people - in particular people in a position of power in a learning institution - should be able to say whatever comes to their minds, disregarding how other people are going to take what they say?

                                                    I think that people should not be expected to self-censor on the basis that people might get offended on behalf of others.

                                                    This is not someone pondering whether a bear shits in the woods, this is someone defending a 74 year man having sex with people in the age range of his students in front of his students.

                                                    Society decided a long time ago - and has not changed its decision since then - that once you’re over the age of consent there’s nothing wrong with relationships with anyone of any age also above the age of consent.

                                                    You can advocate for change to that or that you think that’s wrong, but given that the primary basis for LGB rights advocacy I’ve seen is ‘consenting adults in private should be able to do what they like’ I think you should think carefully about what you’re implying.

                                                    1. 2

                                                      I think that people should not be expected to self-censor on the basis that people might get offended on behalf of others.

                                                      So, is there any situation at all where you think people should self-censor? Say, for example, is sexual harassment appropriate? After all sexual harassment is just one person being offended about how someone else treats them.

                                                      Society decided a long time ago - and has not changed its decision since then - that once you’re over the age of consent there’s nothing wrong with relationships with anyone of any age also above the age of consent.

                                                      This is definitely not true. Society frowns upon all kinds of relationships where the age disparity is incongruous with the situation. For example, the terms ‘gold digger’, ‘crate robber’ and ‘cougar’ come to mind. Legality doesn’t equal acceptance.

                                                      You can advocate for change to that or that you think that’s wrong, but given that the primary basis for LGB rights advocacy I’ve seen is ‘consenting adults in private should be able to do what they like’ I think you should think carefully about what you’re implying.

                                                      If you can’t see the difference between two adults in a loving relationship wanting to be accepted by society vs. someone abusing a power imbalance to take advantage of people, then I don’t know what I can do to explain it to you.

                                                  3. 1

                                                    Young women as a demographic, or even actual victims of sexual assault, have no particular right to never see someone argue that a specific sort of sexual encounter wasn’t actually a sexual assault.

                                                    Conversely, Stallman has no particular right to an office provided as a courtesy by a private university, nor does he have a particular right to a leadership position in a privately-held non-profit advocacy group.

                                                    1. 8

                                                      Imagine someone who pretend to be very nice and morally virtuous to a crowd that’s obsessed with this, which can easily be any crowd when carefully herded the right way (most people will agree with superficial statements that sound “morally good”) and gains influence in this crowd.

                                                      Then, using this leverage (the belief this person is definitely a good person) and some character assassination material (an article, twits, whatever claiming a person is terrible; truth here is irrelevant, the holding of controversial opinions at any point in time, even the distant past, is often used as material), on someone (thereon subject), written by themselves or some convenient third party, calls on the mob to take on actions to try and destroy the subject’s life. Actions including online bullying and organized harassment of the subject’s employer, family and friends. This isn’t an exhaustive list.

                                                      There’s a name for a person who does this. It’s Sociopath, or as it used to be called, Psychopath. They are the actual monsters. Whereas the subject is actually nothing else than a victim. If you still have doubts, digging a little on the perpetrator will typically reveal they have had other targets. Yes, they do it, enjoy it, realize they can get away with it and then do it again.

                                                      It helps when in the mob there’s other monsters which enjoy doing this. They willingly help the mob leader, as in exchange they also get their help with other targets. There’s literally entire communities built around doing this.

                                                      This is getting out of control and it needs to stop. Awareness of how these monsters operate helps. At some point, however, instigators will hopefully have to start answering to Justice. The official sort, with trials, evidence, presumption of innocence and all these steps and safeguards which separate Justice from Mob Justice.

                                                        1. 5

                                                          I have just finished reading this. As I suspected, others have noticed this pattern, analyzed it and explained it much better than I could have.

                                                          Thank you for linking this excellent article on the matter.

                                                        2. 1

                                                          Imagine someone who pretend to be very nice and morally virtuous to a crowd that’s obsessed with this, which can easily be any crowd when carefully herded the right way (most people will agree with superficial statements that sound “morally good”) and gains influence in this crowd.

                                                          This is a straw man.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            This is a straw man.

                                                            No, it is not. My comment is about a dark pattern I have noticed in recent years, nothing else than that. The intended audience is pretty much everybody reading the thread. The intended effect is to raise awareness of this dark pattern, and to promote critical thought (there’s never enough of this).

                                                            The poster I was replying to isn’t being targeted by me in any other way than being the post that incited my reply, and is absolutely not being pinpointed as the instigator. Thus, I am not making them into some strawman.

                                                            Instead, they are kindly and indirectly being nudged into considering the possibility that they might be participating in such a scenario, and into reflecting into whether what they’re doing is positive.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              Can you cite an example of that ‘dark pattern’ you’ve noticed? Can you cite two examples? Can you cite examples where both sides of the political spectrum used that dark pattern to their advantage?

                                                              I’ll be happy to discuss them.

                                                              1. 3

                                                                Here’s an example: there is a transgender YouTuber whose channel is called ‘ContraPoints’. Her name is Natalie Wynn. She makes videos about a variety of different topics. She’s clearly left-wing and has stated openly and frequently that she is not a transmedicalist (essentially someone with a very narrow view of what constitutes a ‘valid’ transgender person).

                                                                She was essentially ‘cancelled’ on Twitter, and left Twitter as a result, because she made a video where she used a particular transgender activist as a voice actor for all of 6 seconds in an hour long video. What this activist actually said had nothing to do with transmedicalism, he was there to be the voiceover for a particular quote.

                                                                However, because said activist is alleged (without any basis that I’ve seen) to have transmedicalist views, not only did ContraPoints get ostracised from Twitter and harassed so badly she deleted her account and left the platform, but anyone that expressed any support for her (her friends, etc.) were harassed, even if they didn’t actually say anything beyond ‘she’s my friend’.

                                                                So to be clear, people get harassed (death threats, other violent threats, spammed with abusive imagery, told to kill themselves, etc.) not just for being a transmedicalist, not just for allegedly being a transmedicalist, not just for collaborating in an unrelated way with someone that they did not know allegedly is a transmedicalist, inhales but for being friends with someone that collaborated with someone that they did not know allegedly is a transmedicalist.

                                                                But no you’re right I’m sure that cancel culture isn’t a problem.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  Can you cite an example of that ‘dark pattern’ you’ve noticed? Can you cite two examples? Can you cite examples where both sides of the political spectrum used that dark pattern to their advantage?

                                                                  The answer to all your questions is: I don’t need to.

                                                                  I’ll be happy to discuss them.

                                                                  I do not have the time nor the inclination to humor you any further than I have.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    The answer to all your questions is: I don’t need to.

                                                                    So… it was a straw man. You were just pushing the whole ‘virtue signaling’/‘conservative oppression’ talking point on a conversation that had literally nothing to do with that.

                                                                    I do not have the time nor the inclination to humor you any further than I have.

                                                                    I have a feeling that you are one of those people who thinks he’s right even when proven wrong, and has been proven wrong enough times he’s learned not to push the envelope when things aren’t going his way. Can’t say I’m surprised.

                                                            2. -1

                                                              lol

                                                    2. 8

                                                      I especially recommend reading the “Low grade “journalists” and internet mob attack RMS with lies.”, article, perhaps more for it’s content than it’s choice of words.

                                                      The upside to this whole debacle is that RMS will probably have more tile to work on the GNU project. IMO the role of president of the FSF wasn’t ever the best for him – even if I disagree with they way they amputated him. I’ve been following the Emacs mailing list in more detail recently, and maybe I have a wrong impression, but I see him taking part in the discussions more than at least over the last few years.

                                                      1. 0

                                                        I remember that article. It had some weird phrasings, since edited:

                                                        https://twitter.com/gerikson/status/1176211260142231552

                                                        RMS’ more ardent defenders are in general a bit outside the mainstream.

                                                        1. 9

                                                          This is known as ad-hominem. The author’s personal views (or what kind of person they are) are irrelevant to the validity of arguments presented.

                                                          The linked twit is a good reminder of why I avoid twitter. It is a community full of hate and destructive energy, not one of reasoning and respect for difference of opinions.

                                                          If someone cannot tolerate the existence of human beings who hold opinions different than theirs, then they’re toxic. Twitter is toxic, as it’s full of this sort of people, to the point it hosts mobs that attack people they disagree with, with the full intent of destroying their lives. This is called mob justice (I believe those involved tend to use euphenisms for this), as opposed to justice. Basically a mob, typically herded by a sociopath, playing judge and executor. It isn’t just in any way.

                                                          Twitter tolerates this behaviour and thrives on it. Twitter is a platform for organized hate. It is literally the platform where most of this is conducted. If Twitter went away overnight, the world would be better for it.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            It’s not really a stretch to say that the age of consent at 16 is too old. There are clearly kids having consensual sex that shouldn’t be illegal below that age, but not much below it. ‘Romeo and Juliet’ laws for anyone under 18 is probably a much more reasonable system.

                                                        2. 1

                                                          Hm, that article doesn’t do a great job of proving Stallman’s supposed innocence.

                                                          His argument that Minsky having sex with Virginia Giuffre is not a crime even though she was a minor because she was coerced by someone else is ludicrous. By that argument, having sex with a victim of sexual trafficking Is acceptable. Minsky was a grown-ass man that should be responsible - and accountable - for his decisions, including deciding to have sex with a minor in very weird and strange circumstances.

                                                          Besides the potential legality based on jurisdiction, the very obvious lack of morality of the act should make anyone take a step back. One can’t equate a 17 year old having sex with a partner of similar age as part of a normal love relationship with a full-grown adult taking advantage of someone barely able to make a decision about their sexuality… and yet, the author of that article seems to think that because Stallman somehow has been consistent about that misrepresentation, that must mean he’s been wronged by someone pointing out it’s wrong.

                                                          1. 8

                                                            He’s not arguing that it wouldn’t be a crime. I don’t know how you read that from the very clear, incredibly specific text.

                                                            1. -1

                                                              Did you read the mail thread linked in that article? The whole point of the thread is pondering if they should be calling this sexual assault or not, because to Minsky’s knowledge she could’ve just been a really keen very young woman. For context, they are talking about a 74 year old thinking that a teenager is coming on to him.

                                                              1. 5

                                                                I know two women who in their teens were gerontophiles.

                                                                1. -1

                                                                  Ah, I see. So that makes it OK, I guess.

                                                                  1. 5

                                                                    It makes it believable that an old man could think a teenager is coming onto him, at the least.

                                                                2. 2

                                                                  The structure of your post throws around some ideas, but doesn’t construct any arguments. It reads as an appeal to emotions.

                                                                  The whole point of the thread is pondering if they should be calling this sexual assault or not, because to Minsky’s knowledge she could’ve just been a really keen very young woman. For context, they are talking about a 74 year old thinking that a teenager is coming on to him.

                                                                  Your point being? Be very specific, because through your roundabout strategy, you come out to me as pushing the idea that some topics should never be discussed, that some ideas should be never expressed, and that people who dare do so should be executed by mob. Or that it is alright if this is what happens.

                                                                  Please correct me if I am wrong. By all means, please tell me this isn’t what you’re trying to push.

                                                              2. 3

                                                                Virginia Giuffre

                                                                Being born in 1983, she couldn’t have been a minor in 2001 when she alleged this trafficking took place. Assuming that it happened, that Minsky was involved, and that Minsky had sex with her, the crime would not be having sex with a minor.

                                                                His argument that Minsky having sex with Virginia Giuffre is not a crime even though she was a minor because she was coerced by someone else is ludicrous. By that argument, having sex with a victim of sexual trafficking Is acceptable.

                                                                If you don’t know that someone is a victim of sexual trafficking then it isn’t wrong. Obviously.

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  That depends on the definition of ‘minor’. In most places that means ‘under 18’, and last time I checked, if she was born in - say - September 1983 and the sexual encounter happened in January 2001, that’d make her a minor. In fact, being that both of them are American, and considering that Americans aren’t exempt from crimes committed against other Americans abroad, the statue is even less clear.

                                                                  If you don’t know that someone is a victim of sexual trafficking then it isn’t wrong. Obviously.

                                                                  Millions of Johns that got thrown in jail would like to disagree with you.

                                                        1. 67

                                                          What should people use instead?

                                                          Real secure messaging software. The standard and best answer here is Signal,

                                                          Oh please. They aren’t even close to sharing the same level of functionality. If I want to use Signal, I have to commit to depending on essentially one person (moxie) who is hostile towards anyone who wants to fork his project, and who completely controls the server/infrastructure. And I’d have to severely limit the options I have for interfacing with this service (1 android app, 1 ios app, 1 electron [lol!] desktop app). None of those are problems/restrictions with email.

                                                          I don’t know what the federated, encrypted ‘new’ email thing looks like, but it’s definitely not Signal. Signal is more a replacement for XMPP, if perhaps you wanted to restrict your freedom, give away a phone number, and rely on moxie.

                                                          1. 14

                                                            I think Matrix is getting closer to being a technically plausible email and IM replacement.

                                                            The clients don’t do anything like html mail, but I don’t think I’d miss that much, and the message format doesn’t forbid it either.

                                                            1. 28

                                                              If you can’t send patches to mailing lists with them then they’re not alternatives to email. Email isn’t just IM-with-lag.

                                                              1. 5

                                                                Email can be exported as text and re-parsed by Perl or a different email client.

                                                                Until that functionality is available, I won’t consider something a replacement for email.

                                                                1. 4

                                                                  In all fairness: cmcaine says “Matrix is getting closer”.

                                                                  1. 3

                                                                    Matrix is a federated messaging platform, like XMPP or email. You could definitely support email-style use of the system it’s just that the current clients don’t support that. The protocol itself would be fine for email, mailing lists and git-send-email.

                                                                    The protocol also gives you the benefits of good end-to-end encryption support without faff, which is exactly what general email use and PGP don’t give you.

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      Adding patch workflow to Matrix is no different to adding it to XMPP or any other messaging solution. Yes, it is possible but why?

                                                                      I can understand you like Matrix but it’s not clear how Matrix is getting closer to e-mail replacement with just one almost-stable server implementation and the spec that’s not an IETF standard. I’d say Matrix is more similar to “open Signal” than to e-mail.

                                                                      1. 2

                                                                        “Getting closer” is a statement towards the future, yet all of your counter arguments are about the current state.

                                                                        1. 3

                                                                          If I only knew the future I’d counter argument that but given that the future is unknown I can only extrapolate the current and the past. Otherwise Matrix may be “getting closer” to anything.

                                                                          Do you have any signs that Matrix is getting e-mail patch workflow?

                                                                    2. 2

                                                                      Mailing lists could move to federated chatrooms. They moved from Usenet before, and in some communities moved to forums before the now common use of Slack.

                                                                      I’m not saying it would be the best solution, but it’s our most likely trajectory.

                                                                      1. 6

                                                                        Mailing lists existed in parallel with Usenet.

                                                                        1. 5

                                                                          Both still exist :)

                                                                          I do think, actually, that converting most public mailing lists to newsgroups would have a few benefits:

                                                                          1. It’d make their nature explicit.
                                                                          2. It’d let us stop derailing designs for end-to-end encryption with concerns that really apply only to public mailing lists.
                                                                          3. I could go back to reading them using tin.

                                                                          Snark aside, I do think the newsgroup model is a better fit for most asynchronous group messaging than email is, and think it’s dramatically better than chat apps. Whether you read that to mean slack or any of the myriad superior alternatives to slack. But that ship sailed a long time ago.

                                                                          1. 4

                                                                            Mailing lists are more useful than Usenet. If nothing else, you have access control to the list.

                                                                            1. 2

                                                                              Correct, and the younger generation unfamiliar with Usenet gravitated towards mailing lists. The cycle repeats.

                                                                            2. 4

                                                                              Mailing lists don’t use slack and slack isn’t a mailing list. Slack is an instant messaging service. It has almost nothing in common with mailing lists.

                                                                              It’s really important to drive this point home. People critical of email have a lot of good points. Anyone that has set up a mail server in the last few years knows what a pain it is. But you will not succeed in replacing something you don’t understand.

                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                The world has moved on from asynchronous communication for organizing around free software projects. It sucks, I know.

                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                  Yeah. Not everyone, though.

                                                                                  Personally I think that GitHub’s culture is incredibly toxic. Only recently have there been tools added to allow repository owners to control discussions in their own issues and pull requests. Before that, if your issue got deep linked from Reddit you’d get hundreds of drive by comments saying all sorts of horrible and misinformed things.

                                                                                  I think we’re starting to see a push back from this GitHub/Slack culture at last back to open, federated protocols like SMTP and plain git. Time will tell. Certainly there’s nothing stopping a project from moving to {git,lists}.sr.ht, mirroring their repo on GitHub, and accepting patches via mailing list. Eventually people will realise that this means a lower volume of contributions but with a much higher signal to noise ratio, which is a trade-off some will be happy to make.

                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                    Only recently have there been tools added to allow repository owners to control discussions in their own issues and pull requests. Before that, if your issue got deep linked from Reddit you’d get hundreds of drive by comments saying all sorts of horrible and misinformed things.

                                                                                    It’s not like you used to have levers for mailing lists, though, that would stop marc.org from archiving them or stop people from linking those marc.org (or kernel.org) threads. And drive-bys happened from that, too. I don’t think I’m disputing your larger point. Just saying that it’s really not related to the message transfer medium, at least as regards toxicity.

                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                      Sure, I totally agree with you! Drive-bys happen on any platform. The difference is that (at least until recently) on GitHub you had basically zero control. Most people aren’t going to sign up to a mailing list to send an email. The barrier to sending an email to a mailing list is higher than the barrier to leaving a comment on GitHub. That has advantages and disadvantages. Drive-by contributions and drive-by toxicity are both lessened. It’s a trade-off I think.

                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                        I guess I wasn’t considering a mailing list subscription as being meaningfully different than registering for a github account. But if you’ve already got a github account, that makes sense as a lower barrier.

                                                                          2. 5

                                                                            Matrix allows sending in the clear, so I suppose this has the “eventually it will leak” property that the OP discussed?

                                                                            (A separate issue: I gave up on Matrix because its e2e functionality was too hard to use with multiple clients)

                                                                            1. 5

                                                                              (A separate issue: I gave up on Matrix because its e2e functionality was too hard to use with multiple clients)

                                                                              and across UA versions. When I still used it I got hit when I realized it derived the key using the browser user agent, so when OpenBSD changed how the browser presented itself I was suddenly not able to read old conversations :)

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                Oh! I didn’t know that!

                                                                          3. 5

                                                                            Functionality is literally irrelevant, because the premise is that we’re talking about secure communications, in cases where the secrecy actually matters.

                                                                            Of course if security doesn’t matter then Signal is a limited tool, you can communicate in Slack/a shared google doc or in a public Markdown document hosted on Cloudflare at that point.

                                                                            Signal is the state of the art in secure communications, because even though the project is heavily driven by Moxie, you don’t actually need to trust him. The Signal protocol is open and it’s basically the only one on the planet that goes out of it’s way to minimize server-side information storage and metadata. The phone number requirement is also explicitly a good design choice in this case: as a consequence Signal does not store your contact graph - that is kept on your phone in your contact store. The alternative would be that either users can’t find each other (defeating the point of a secure messaging tool) or that Signal would have to store the contact graph of every user - which is a way more invasive step than learning your phone number.

                                                                            1. 9

                                                                              even though the project is heavily driven by Moxie, you don’t actually need to trust him

                                                                              Of course you must trust Moxie. A lot of the Signal privacy features is that you trust them not to store certain data that they have access to. The protocol allows for the data not to be stored, but it gives no guarantees. Moxie also makes the only client you can use to communicate with his servers, and you can’t build them yourself, at least not without jumping hoops.

                                                                              The phone number issue is what’s keeping me away from Signal. It’s viral, in that everyone who has Signal will start using Signal to communicate with me, since the app indicates that they can. That makes it difficult to get out of Signal when it becomes too popular. I know many people that cannot get rid of WhatsApp anymore, since they still need it for a small group, but cannot get rid of the larger group because their phone number is their ID, and you’re either on WhatsApp completely or you’re not. Signal is no different.

                                                                              And how can you see that a phone number is able to receive your Signal messages? You have to ask the Signal server somehow, which means that Signal then is able to make the contact graph you’re telling me Signal doesn’t have. They can also add your non-Signal friends to the graph, since you ask about their numbers too. Maybe you’re right and Moxie does indeed not store this information, but you cannot know for sure.

                                                                              What happens when Moxie ends up under a bus, and Signal is bought by Facebook/Google/Microsoft/Apple and they suddenly start storing all this metadata?

                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                Signal is a 501c3 non-profit foundation in the US, Moxie does not control it nor able to sell it. In theory every organization can turn evil but there is still a big difference between non-profits who are legally not allowed to do certain things vs corporations who are legally required to serve their shareholders, mostly by seeking to turn a profit.

                                                                                And how can you see that a phone number is able to receive your Signal messages? You have to ask the Signal server somehow, which means that Signal then is able to make the contact graph you’re telling me Signal doesn’t have.

                                                                                There are two points here that I’d like to make, one broader and one specific. In a general sense, Signal does not implement a feature until they can figure out how to do that securely and with leaking as little information as possible. This has been the pattern for basically almost every feature that Signal has. Specifically, phone numbers are the same: The Signal app just sends a cryptographically hashed, truncated version of phone numbers in your address book to the server, and the server responds with the list of hashes that are signal users. This means that Signal on the server side knows if any one person is a Signal user, but not their contact graph.

                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                  In theory every organization can turn evil

                                                                                  Every organization can also be bought by an evil one. Facebook bought WhatsApp, remember?

                                                                                  The Signal app just sends a cryptographically hashed, truncated version of phone numbers in your address book

                                                                                  These truncated hashes can still be stored server-side, and be used to make graphs. With enough collected data, a lot of these truncated hashes can be reversed. Now I don’t think Signal currently stores this data, let alone do data analysis. But Facebook probably would, given the chance.

                                                                                  1. 6

                                                                                    Every organization can also be bought by an evil one. Facebook bought WhatsApp, remember?

                                                                                    WhatsApp was a for-profit company, 501(c)3 work under quite different conditions. Not saying they can’t be taken over, but this argument doesn’t cut it.

                                                                              2. 3

                                                                                The phone number requirement is also explicitly a good design choice

                                                                                No, it’s an absolutely terrible choice, just like it is a terrible choice for ‘two factor authentication’

                                                                                Oh but Signal users can always meet in person to re-verify keys, which would prevent any sim swap attack from working? No, this (overwhelmingly) doesn’t happen. In an era where lots of people change phones every ~1-2yr, it’s super easy to ignore the warning because 99% of the time it’s a false positive.

                                                                                The alternative would be that either users can’t find each other (defeating the point of a secure messaging tool)

                                                                                This is a solved problem. I mean, how do you think you got the phone numbers for your contacts in the first place? You probably asked them, and they probably gave it to you. Done.

                                                                              3. -8

                                                                                Careful there… you can’t say bad things about electron in here….

                                                                              1. 13

                                                                                Nice to read some positive stuff about a maligned language.

                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                  Is Facebook still using its own version of PHP?

                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                    Yes, they are still using Hack.

                                                                                  2. 1

                                                                                    As I understand it, “maligned” is usually intended as “spreading bullshit/FUD” (Merriam-Webster: “spoken about in an injurious way : harshly or unfairly criticized”). Is this what you intended? Or did you merely intend “criticized”?

                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                      If there’s one programming language since Basic that’s literally been maligned, it’s PHP. So yes, I meant it in the M-W sense. We see an example of it in this very thread!

                                                                                      Edit note that I am not doing the maligning. I’m neutral on PHP

                                                                                      1. 9

                                                                                        While I’m sure a lot of the criticism pointed towards PHP is indeed unfair, a lot of it is totally valid. PHP has a lot of extremely strange warts that just don’t really make sense. My favourite example is that the ternary operator (i.e. cond ? true_expr : false_expr) associates left to right instead of right to left (see example four https://www.php.net/manual/en/language.operators.comparison.php#language.operators.comparison.ternary).
                                                                                        This is purely a mistake in the grammar and has been left in for YEARS due to lots of code already being written and relying on this.

                                                                                        This is just one issue out of a whole lot. There are a lot of benefits to using PHP I’m sure, but it wasn’t a masterclass in programming language design by any stretch.

                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                          This is purely a mistake in the grammar and has been left in for YEARS due to lots of code already being written and relying on this.

                                                                                          Indeed; this has been an explicit design goal of PHP (maintain backwards compatibility, even if it means leaving warts in place). This is part of what has contributed to PHP’s runaway success: you can run PHP4 code on PHP7 with minimal-if-any changes. I know, because I do.

                                                                                          Adam Harvey’s talk What PHP learned from Python made this explicit for me, but honestly it makes sense. It turns out most of these warts are minimally invasive; in general I find reliance on operator associativity or priority makes for hard-to-read code anyway. Focus has instead been on making the language fast and powerful, with optional additions to improve large codebases (like types).

                                                                                          I may be biased, because the first language I learned was PHP (more or less), but I keep coming back to it fifteen years later. It’s a fast-to-develop, batteries-included, does-what-you want language. It’s very similar to python in many ways.

                                                                                          1. 6

                                                                                            There is a loooot of programming languages taking back ward compatibility as a must (out of my head java, python 2, python 3, C, C++, javascript). None of them has wart as PHP. PHP was simply not designed at all.

                                                                                          2. 3

                                                                                            This will actually be addressed in the next versions of PHP: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/ternary_associativity

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              In 15+ years of php I’ve never nested ternary calls … Thats just ugly :D

                                                                                              I do typically use 1 ternary call to return nicely from a function or method …

                                                                                              return (count($f)) ? $f : $bar;
                                                                                              
                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                In PHP an empty array returns FALSE, so you can shorten that to:

                                                                                                return $f ? $f : $bar;
                                                                                                

                                                                                                Furthermore, that can be shortened to:

                                                                                                return $f ?: $bar;
                                                                                                
                                                                                        2. -1

                                                                                          dude, seriously?

                                                                                      1. 58

                                                                                        Yeah, “moderating” with a don't make "hate posts" isn’t gonna cut it. There was glossed over reason for not liking electron followed by good discussion pointing to the actual reasons. This looked a lot more like a “frustrated and with good reason” post to me!

                                                                                        If absolutely nothing else - there needs to be an explanation from @pushcx on what the specifics of hate are!

                                                                                        I sincerely hope that this type of moderation doesn’t become the norm!

                                                                                        1. 18

                                                                                          It’s really boring whenever an app made with Electron comes up that someone has to bring up that they don’t like Electron. It adds nothing to the conversation. I hope this kind of moderation becomes the norm.

                                                                                          1. 46

                                                                                            And I personally find many discussions on this site boring, but I’d hope that my discussion preferences don’t get baked into moderation policy.

                                                                                            We’ve already got downvotes.

                                                                                            1. 10

                                                                                              So… sarcastic remarks are now a no-no?

                                                                                              I find Electron to be a little too much bloated for my taste. I would not recommend it as a go-to solution for desktop applications, since not everyone really needs bundled web browser and ffmpeg. That out of the way, feel free to talk about it’s advantages.

                                                                                              Is this really better?

                                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                                I assume you mean moderating of the comment.. not the removal of the entire thread.. hopefully you mean that :P.

                                                                                                1. 6

                                                                                                  Exactly this! Much nicer way to resolve this situation was to say in comments like “Hey, we consider this type of comments harmful because of etc etc etc… but no, they had to remove it. And the comment was not as problematic as they present it here. I don’t want to leave this place after 3 years of reading other people’s (well moderated) opinions. I kinda felt this is going to happen after JCS announced that he’s stepping out.

                                                                                                2. 0

                                                                                                  Its really boring when a “lightweight” app comes up that has been written in Electron, when it is far from lightweight. It adds nothing to the site. I hope this kind of content doesn’t become the norm.

                                                                                                3. 6

                                                                                                  Given the effects of rants on conversation (especially rants many of us have read many times), it would be nice to enforce stricter requirements on the writer of the rants to offer “constructive feedback”.

                                                                                                  “I’m really tired of having to install Electron’s 200 megs” yeah we all are… “would be nice to have some shared libs/for people to rely more on OS-specific containers” OK now we have something that adds to the conversation.

                                                                                                  And if we’ve all had this conversation before…. well… we can just not make the post (This one might apply to my own post but I don’t read it that often).

                                                                                                  EDIT: I don’t necessarily think this requires deletion in most cases. Downvotes should work so long as people aren’t rage-upvoting….

                                                                                                  1. 25

                                                                                                    wait, it has 17 upvotes (if one is to believe the archived version) and then got deleted?

                                                                                                    edit: and the “hate post” self-description was clearly sarcasm. even a non native speaker can see that. can we pretty please just use the voting system for moderation except for extreme cases (like, real hate speech)?

                                                                                                    1. 35

                                                                                                      Yeah, I’m not immediately sure how I feel about this. I agree that the comment was low-value, but I also haven’t traditionally felt that my feeling alone should be sufficient justification to delete, in part because others might disagree. That’s never been how lobste.rs does things.

                                                                                                      I do acknowledge that without the accidental recursive deletion, the impact would have been lower, and of course that aspect of it was a one-off.

                                                                                                      Now that the technical migration is done, the new leadership team should all talk at some point about moderation philosophy and get on the same page.

                                                                                                      1. 13

                                                                                                        why was it low-value? just because of the wording? the title said “minimal”, and that is at least a bit hazy in its meaning. so saying that electron isn’t minimal is a valid point in the discussion. even with a grain of sarcasm.

                                                                                                        1. 8

                                                                                                          To me personally it was low-value because it took me a while to understand (might have been easier if I’d seen it while it was up and therefore the article’s subject matter in mind…), and because I didn’t feel that I got much out of it after putting in that effort. It was a valid and accurate criticism of Electron and of the article, without being a constructive one.

                                                                                                          It’s certainly legitimate to express feelings about the article and about Electron, and I appreciate that many people have strong feelings on technical subjects, and I wouldn’t ask anyone to suppress those feelings. I don’t think it’s something that shouldn’t have been said. But if I’d personally said something this short I’d have expected to be downvoted.

                                                                                                          My personal approach is that if I don’t have anything to add about how we got to this bad situation, or how we might get out of it, I just don’t say anything. This is out of respect for the time people spend reading this kind of remark, and with awareness that it takes time away from reading other pithy critiques. :) I do not consider it appropriate to enforce that on others though.

                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                            My personal approach is that if I don’t have anything to add about how we got to this bad situation, or how we might get out of it, I just don’t say anything. This is out of respect for the time people spend reading this kind of remark, and with awareness that it takes time away from reading other pithy critiques.

                                                                                                            If it comes in the form a one-line comment less than twenty words long, I think the dear citizens of Lobsters will be able to stomach having your opinion fly across their screen without much hazard, no matter how non-substantive it is.

                                                                                                            1. 3

                                                                                                              That’s fair. I guess I over-emphasized concern for others’ reactions: Only saying things I consider worth saying is mostly a thing I do for myself.

                                                                                                        2. 9

                                                                                                          And, hopefully, have that moderation philosophy align with the people using the site!

                                                                                                          1. 17

                                                                                                            It does to be fair go in both directions to some extent, since moderation philosophies impact who you get on a site and vice versa. But it’s tricky here because it’s a change in moderation team. People signed up basically expecting the jcs+Irene brand of moderation, but it’s not clear the pushcx brand is the same as that one. I personally feel very comfortable with the previous two moderators, and if they wanted to become a bit more hands-on as the community grows, I wouldn’t be too worried, because I trust how they’ve moderated the site so far. But a new moderator becoming significantly more hands-on than the existing moderation team makes me more nervous.

                                                                                                            1. 4

                                                                                                              I can’t speak for pushcx; I’ve always considered that a constraint. I believe I’m on record with it, although I can’t find the comments right now.

                                                                                                            2. 5

                                                                                                              FWIW, I think that any shift in moderation philosophy isn’t necessarily bad - I just hope it’s something discussed openly as a meta post, considered thoughtfully, and implemented transparently. That transparency was one of the features that pulled many people here and I’d hate to see it change.

                                                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                                                It had a lot of value for me, it told me that it uses Electron, which I try to avoid. Just because something has low value for you does not mean it has low value for everybody.

                                                                                                                1. 0

                                                                                                                  Yeah, I’m not immediately sure how I feel about this.

                                                                                                                  I am: a censor abused his powers. In a just world, he would be forced to step down and suffer with the rest of us mortals. Fortunately for him, this is not a just world.

                                                                                                                2. 11

                                                                                                                  Final count according to the author was 23 and -4

                                                                                                                  1. 9

                                                                                                                    Upvotes are not necessarily a good way to judge a comment. People are herd animals, and it’s easy to upvote. There is a type of post that optimizes for “time taken” and “upvotes received:” the “zinger.”

                                                                                                                    1. 20

                                                                                                                      up/down votes are imho a clearly better moderation system than randomly deleting posts out of a mood.

                                                                                                                      1. 11

                                                                                                                        I don’t agree. Upvotes are very prone to herd movements and rarely express a useful policy in aggregates.

                                                                                                                        1. 7

                                                                                                                          Since we’re in meta territory here: I’ve found that the score hiding feature at least seems to weed out some of the herd tendencies.

                                                                                                                          Maybe we should look at adjusting the score visibility threshold up? Or keep the score hidden for a bit longer?

                                                                                                                          1. 8

                                                                                                                            maybe just don’t show the score except for the poster so the feedback is still there, but the herd effect doesn’t kick in

                                                                                                                          2. 3

                                                                                                                            but what’s a better alternative? at least with (down-)votes there is a feedback, maybe to better state a point via an edit. i always had the feeling the votes worked rather good here.

                                                                                                                            1. 5

                                                                                                                              This still doesn’t make them “clearly a better moderation system”. A mix of both is very usual and proven.

                                                                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                                                                This still doesn’t make them “clearly a better moderation system”.

                                                                                                                                like i’ve said: “imho”, but i have felt as i typed “clearly” that it would be a point of criticism for some.

                                                                                                                                A mix of both is very usual and proven.

                                                                                                                                to quote myself:

                                                                                                                                can we pretty please just use the voting system for moderation except for extreme cases (like, real hate speech)?

                                                                                                                      2. 1

                                                                                                                        can we pretty please just use the voting system for moderation except for extreme cases (like, real hate speech)?

                                                                                                                        And how is “real” “hate speech” defined? In reality, the term is just a catch-all excuse for censorship of various kinds.

                                                                                                                      3. 0

                                                                                                                        if this causes a “problem” in moderation lobste.rs is pretty much dead to me.

                                                                                                                      1. 10

                                                                                                                        I don’t care much for the reasons given in the article. To me, it’s the fact that I can run it over SSH, and of course the modal editing (note the fact that Emacs has a VI mode, but not the other way around :^) ).

                                                                                                                        1. 8

                                                                                                                          I don’t either. But I only use vim over SSH. For me, the refactoring powers of modern IDEs are worth far more than the editing capabilities of vim. And I don’t have to have a finicky and fragile setup. Not to mention how much time it takes. I used to be a very big vim user with a huge init.vim (ok Neovim user, but whatever) but I found myself significant more productive in a jet brains IDE.

                                                                                                                          1. 5

                                                                                                                            It helps that Ideavim (the official vim-keys plugin for Jet Brains’ IDEs) is really quite good (though I’m not a vim power user). I can’t see myself going back to vim for regular coding - I like my IDE features too much, and I actually think people who eschew good IDEs are needlessly hindering their own productivity, or perhaps haven’t really been exposed to the power of (for example) a great debugger.

                                                                                                                            1. 4

                                                                                                                              the refactoring powers of modern IDEs are worth far more than the editing capabilities of vim.

                                                                                                                              Not every language has an IDE, however. Modal editing is worthwhile learning because it’s portable.

                                                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                                                Just take good stuff from both worlds. I run Visual Studio with VSVim plugin for example.

                                                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                                                  I think it varies widely by language. I’m a big Vim fan, but If I’m writing C#, no chance you’re pulling me away from Visual Studio. VsVim is not quite as good as real Vim, but you’ll never beat the IntelliSense auto-completion, realtime syntax and type checking, a real Go To Definition, build and unit test support, TFS source control support, etc.

                                                                                                                                  On the other hand, if I’m writing Ruby or Python, I’d rather use real Vim and do anything I can’t do in it on the command line. Most of that other stuff is either not possible or not needed with the more dynamic languages.

                                                                                                                                  Haven’t done as much Java personally. I think it’s more usable on the command line than C#, but doing it in IDEA or something instead is such a huge boost for all the same reasons.

                                                                                                                              1. 6

                                                                                                                                Here’s an idea: use IRC, where there’s no rate limited API and Discord, Inc. can’t tell you what to do

                                                                                                                                1. 4

                                                                                                                                  Or the tad more modern Matrix.

                                                                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                                                                    I am pretty sure that in 5 years people have moved away from discord to something else, while IRC is still going strong.

                                                                                                                                    Apart from mobile usage IRC pretty much has everything you would need from a group chat. (And mobile wasn’t a thing when IRC was invented anyway…)

                                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                                      Apart from mobile usage IRC pretty much has everything you would need from a group chat. (And mobile wasn’t a thing when IRC was invented anyway…)

                                                                                                                                      Like… history?

                                                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                                                        The multi-client experience is poor, all the history solutions are poor, embedded images and links aren’t supported (and the community is hostile to them) which in turn makes good integrations very difficult, authentication isn’t standardised and again the community is hostile to standardizing it. IRC is pretty bad and whenever there’s a proposal to make it better there’s too much “get off my lawn” to get anything done.

                                                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                                                          Check out weechat for android, I use it very regularly for mobile IRC.

                                                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                                                        This reminds me of so many other situations wherein open-source projects have problems with Windows (that would not be problems if more of those devs were Windows devs) and usually people don’t notice right away because no one is testing it. I think this is still a thing when it comes to Python tools on Windows.

                                                                                                                                        1. 5

                                                                                                                                          Not all problems can be preempted by tests :)

                                                                                                                                          In this case it was more like the tests didn’t really do a full registry fetch; since the tests all run without needing internet iirc. Even if the tests did do a registry fetch, this would only be caught the next time someone ran the tests against a modified registry, you can’t preempt this problem until it happens. People did immediately notice however and ping the team so it could be rolled back.

                                                                                                                                          Last I checked we were testing all platforms for cargo and rustc.

                                                                                                                                          Many rustc devs use Windows so it’s not that bad. Though it did take a while to get proper debuginfo on windows way back.

                                                                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                                                                            Not all problems can be preempted by tests :)

                                                                                                                                            Sure they can, if you’re willing to wait long enough on your test suite :)

                                                                                                                                            (I’m certainly not claiming that this should’ve been tested for. Sounds like it was handled fine.)

                                                                                                                                          2. 5

                                                                                                                                            Amen. I’ve personally been Linux-only for about a decade, but I maintain an open source command line tool that purports to work on Linux, Mac and Windows. Windows has been a neverending hole. (And I say that without blame. Perhaps it isn’t Windows fault, and it’s just my unfamiliarity with the platform, or maybe it’s just how end users have adapted their interaction with the platform. Nevertheless, this is my experience.) Just off the top of my head, without looking at my issue tracker:

                                                                                                                                            • Colors in a terminal are done completely differently than on Unix, and require synchronous interaction with the Windows console. If your tool writes to stdout from multiple threads, this is a problem. (I’ve fixed this.)
                                                                                                                                            • Windows users are split between cygwin and PowerShell/cmd users, which means Windows actually needs to be able to support ANSI coloring too. (I’ve fixed this.)
                                                                                                                                            • There’s no portable API for determining, on Windows, whether you’re at a tty or not when you factor in both console and cygwin users. (I’ve fixed this.)
                                                                                                                                            • Windows programs are responsible for doing their own globbing on arguments given to argv. (Not fixed.)
                                                                                                                                            • Long file paths require special attention and don’t Just Work. (Not fixed.)
                                                                                                                                            • Symlinks are a minefield, in general, especially when cygwin gets involved since cygwin has its own “seamless” path translation code. (Not fixed.)
                                                                                                                                            • Defining “aliases” or “wrapper scripts” is purportedly so hard (according to my users) that a configuration file for including common flags in my tool is a hugely desirable feature. (Not fixed.)

                                                                                                                                            There are more problems, but I’d have to go look at my issue tracker to remember them. Some of the aforementioned issues would be fixed if I were linking with cygwin and using those APIs, but then Windows users are forced to use two separate binaries based on which environment they’re in. (And there are operational problems with me using cygwin this way anyway, since I’m not using C.)

                                                                                                                                            I’ve also started getting bug reports from Windows users that are using Bash on Windows. I’m not looking forward to supporting a third environment just from within Windows itself.

                                                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                                                              I’m helping an engineer at work setting up better dependency management for his c++ projects, the life of a windows dev is hard… I mean just getting a way to compile libmodbus properly is a challenge we still havent solved (Short of putting the files manually in the project or cross compiling from linux to windows)

                                                                                                                                              How do win devs get c/c++ libraries outside of the .net ecosystem?

                                                                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                                                                How do win devs get c/c++ libraries outside of the .net ecosystem?

                                                                                                                                                C/C++ projects usually have way less dependencies and they don’t change that often.

                                                                                                                                                Keeping the dependencies inside the source control is effective way of making sure you don’t have to setup dependencies again.

                                                                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                                                                  I recently discovered Conan. Maybe that helps?

                                                                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                                                                    I like the idea, I’ll see if I can compile a package

                                                                                                                                              1. 77

                                                                                                                                                Wow, this article has more red flags than all the official buildings in Turkey combined. Just looking at this article, I’d guess that teamed.io is probably a terrible place to work at.

                                                                                                                                                I’m a passionate programmer, and I’ve built a game in my free time. I explore new languages, study the fundamentals of computer science and abstract math. I have no interest in developing crappy open source libraries for the sake of building a profile in languages and ecosystems that encourage billions of dependencies. My personal interests (that I’m passionate enough to spend my spare time) are too niche to bother write libraries for. And even if I did write open-source libraries, it’d get 2 stars on github due to the niche domain. I also personally think certifications are useless (no offense to people that think otherwise, just my personal opinion), and anything that fancies me is probably too unexplored to be given certifications for. In Stackoverflow you get far more reputation for answering beginner questions, which only demonstrate that you’re wasting your time on Stackoverflow trying to gain some rep by jumping on simple questions.

                                                                                                                                                All your heuristics are stupid metrics that can easily be gamed, and they ARE being actively gamed. The passionate programmer in me despises these metrics and has no interest in maximizing them.

                                                                                                                                                1. 19

                                                                                                                                                  Half way in I was thinking that it was satire…

                                                                                                                                                  1. 14

                                                                                                                                                    I’m still not entirely convinced that it isn’t.

                                                                                                                                                    Take a read at http://www.teamed.io/

                                                                                                                                                    Tap into a distributed global network of the highest-caliber programmers, working under our control

                                                                                                                                                    and

                                                                                                                                                    There are 70+ software developers working with us at the moment, but these guys are simply the best: [list of names]

                                                                                                                                                    and

                                                                                                                                                    Quality of Code is Exceptional; It is the highest in the entire industry.

                                                                                                                                                    Just scream parody

                                                                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                                                                      From the liked list I took this one which does not seem to satisfy this blog posts criterias to begin with, since it hasn’t any really popular projects used by people nor high activity.

                                                                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                                                                        Though he does write similarly obnoxious blog posts:

                                                                                                                                                        http://obrown.io/2016/01/03/its-you-not-phpunit.html

                                                                                                                                                  2. 13

                                                                                                                                                    Wait, you mean you can be a great programmer without spending time amassing tons of Internet Points?

                                                                                                                                                    It was only a matter of time before we assigned vanity metrics, such as open source project popularity and SO reputation to have actual meaning. Nevertheless, it is still sad to read.

                                                                                                                                                    I weep for the Internet of before where striving for fake points on websites was seen as meaningful only within the context of the site itself, and, beyond that, somewhat silly. You may counter with, “but, how will we know if so-and-so has skills?” That remains your problem, and not something you foist onto bullshit metrics.

                                                                                                                                                    1. 7

                                                                                                                                                      I think you paint an overly pessimistic view of contributing to the body of open source software and helping beginners.

                                                                                                                                                      1. 21

                                                                                                                                                        I’m sorry, you’re right, these things are undisputedly good by themselves (especially the way you put them). My objection is to the way these things are distorted by the likes of the author as well as those that game the metrics. Contributing to open source is a very noble activity, but spamming crappy libraries and saying “f* you and your problems, I did this for free!” for the sake of github stars is not. Helping beginners is good, but claiming you’re an expert because you were first to answer how to concatenate two strings, which earned you 150k points is not.

                                                                                                                                                        My tone was probably overly defensive though.

                                                                                                                                                      2. 6

                                                                                                                                                        It’s quite telling of their culture that in their second point as to why open source projects are important they say:

                                                                                                                                                        I often hear something like “my company doesn’t pay me for open source contribution and at home I want to spend time with my family.”

                                                                                                                                                        They “debunk” the first part but they never again mention why some people would rather spend time with family.

                                                                                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                                                                                        The example is quite misleading. You cannot just change your health and ammo in counter-strike values as those are handled on the server side.

                                                                                                                                                        I doubt you can do that in assault cube if you run the server on a different machine…

                                                                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                                                                          And to think we all complain about compile times of 15 seconds….

                                                                                                                                                          But 30 minutes seems insane for ray tracing a single frame. Is there really that much stuff going on in these movies?

                                                                                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                                                                                            They simulate rays of lights bouncing around, so yeah.

                                                                                                                                                            1. 3

                                                                                                                                                              Global illumination is fairly expensive (at least the algorithms I looked at back in the day). I would guess a lot of CPU time is spent in shaders as well. And there are all sorts of deformations and what not that need to be applied to the models. And there are a lot of things in each scene.

                                                                                                                                                              The wikipedia page on the Reyes algorithm has some interesting information but doesn’t directly answer your question:

                                                                                                                                                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reyes_rendering

                                                                                                                                                            1. 49

                                                                                                                                                              Personally, my main reason for not using Atom as an editor is because it’s a web browser.

                                                                                                                                                              1. 17

                                                                                                                                                                Its a sad direction for software development. Just bundling applications inside a browser and releasing it as a “app”.

                                                                                                                                                                Then saying that there is enough CPU/RAM to waste, for example Spotify can take up to 30 seconds to launch. All it has to do is to steam music, display lists with some images.

                                                                                                                                                                Javascript has its places and uses, but building desktop applications on top of it is just lazy.

                                                                                                                                                                1. 9

                                                                                                                                                                  On the one hand, I generally agree that the bundled-up-webpage style of “native” app development results in a crappy product. There’s plenty of examples of this.

                                                                                                                                                                  On the other hand, specifically in the case of Atom, which is trying to be a sort-of 21st century Emacs, it makes a lot of sense to want the UI to be expressible as a well-understood, easy-to-work-with DOM.

                                                                                                                                                                  This enables plugins to do a lot of things with UI that are hard-or-downright impossible in Emacs' ad-hoc, highly limited UI modification hooks (it’s damn near impossible just to draw a vertical line in emacs).

                                                                                                                                                                  Is HTML the optimal DOM for a text-editor-cum-programming-environment? No. But it’s well-known and well-understood, and starting from scratch would have taken a lot longer.

                                                                                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                    (it’s damn near impossible just to draw a vertical line in emacs).

                                                                                                                                                                    Would picture-mode do the trick? It’s a mode for creating ASCII art.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                      I think he means a marker for a column.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                        I learned about picture-mode thanks to this comment. SO COOL!! Thank you! BRB making all the ascii arts…

                                                                                                                                                                  2. 6

                                                                                                                                                                    Is this just due to the performance hit you take by running slower non-native ui code or do you have something else against the web tech on the desktop model?

                                                                                                                                                                    1. 11

                                                                                                                                                                      Its lazy way to develop applications and can never be as good as native application build on native code.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. 9

                                                                                                                                                                        I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand as you said native code is always going to be faster, “feel better” (tighter intergration with the rest of the system), etc. However a lot of native GUI frameworks are pretty messy. (Anyone who has worked with GTK will likely know the pain that it brings). The web model at least provides a nice separation between the design and the program logic. (There are other more native frameworks that do this to some extent, but I feel this is still a significant reason why the web model is used so much). I also like how the web model allows for portability and distributivity with (relative) ease. This does not mean that I feel the electron/node-webkit method of developing software is a good one, and I personally can’t stand using programs made in this way, if for no other reason than my PC is relatively old and the slowdown is noticeable. I do think native frameworks have something to learn from the web, and in an ideal world I would like to see some kind of method of building GUIs that can be served over the web or natively and function well in both instances.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                          I also have mixed opinions, in part because while I’m a bit skeptical of the webtech-everywhere trend, the native-GUI-toolkit side of things is a gigantic mess too, and often not even that native. There are definitely people who do write 100% native GUI applications, but that requires going all-in on one platform. A fairly strong niche are the people who develop OSX-only applications, using all the Apple APIs directly, trying to do things in line with the OSX norms and look-and-feel guidelines, etc. The downside is that when you go all-in on native OSX like this, your app only runs on OSX.

                                                                                                                                                                          The in-between option is a cross-platform toolkit that translates to the native GUI toolkit. That ends up as a kind of halfway house, using the native widgets to get as close to a native look-and-feel as possible, but by necessity not quite using them idiomatically, because they need to be unified or abstracted over in a way that can target a bunch of platforms simultaneously. GTK, Qt, and Java’s Swing sort of fit in there, and while they work, I wouldn’t really go out of my way to sing their praises as the one true way to do GUIs.

                                                                                                                                                                          You can even sort of see the wrapped-webkit type of app as a roundabout realization of something that was a goal of a lot of desktop-Linux people in the late ‘90s: that instead of people writing GUI apps to a specific platform’s toolkit (usually Windows), the GUI layer should be done in a library, with the platform only needing to provide something relatively low-level and common, like a framebuffer to draw the widgets in. Tk was an attempt at that that enjoyed some success for a time.

                                                                                                                                                                        2. 1

                                                                                                                                                                          the one unreservedly good thing i can say about web-on-the-desktop is that it’s the lazy way to develop applications. “lazy” means that you have done what you wanted to do with the least amount of fighting with various toolkits, languages, etc that make your task harder. the fact that you pay the price in cpu and ram consumption and potentially in responsiveness is a huge drawback, but that just means that no one has made a good enough “lazy” alternative yet.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                            But HTML5 is native in Internet Explorer 9, 10, 11 and 12 on Windows! (Only on Windows!)

                                                                                                                                                                            http://youtu.be/9mXe9nRiPHI

                                                                                                                                                                            How do you want your HTML5?

                                                                                                                                                                          2. 6

                                                                                                                                                                            Partly, yes, it’s due to the performance. Even on a fast computer, if you open enough such apps, the entire computer will end up slowing down. However, I also find the tendency of the web tech model to try applying itself to everything a tad… superfluous and useless.

                                                                                                                                                                            Originally, HTML was designed to add links to a markup language, then CSS was added to stylize it, and finally JS was added as a scripting language for the web. Since then, it has all been evolved into being used for nearly everything, from text editors to web browsers. It wasn’t designed for this; it was designed as a way to display text, and link to other text. Nowadays, HTML and CSS seem to have become a UI specification that is difficult for both computers and humans alike to process, and JS has become a haphazardly thrown together mess with the mindset that it should encompass everything.

                                                                                                                                                                            Personally, I can understand the urge to try to get something to do everything¹, but that of course means that there comes an increase in complexity. Complexity is usually never good, you end up with things like this or this happening. Complexity also causes speed issues, which is what the majority people seem to dislike about such efforts. However, mainly I find the complexity of a web browser sitting atop the complexity of an operating system sitting atop the complexity of a backwards-compatible CPU to be appalling to think about². We might as well create an operating system that is mostly a web browser to help reduce complexity.

                                                                                                                                                                            It is the very attempt to use “web tech on the desktop model” that I dislike about it, not merely side effects such as the performance hit. In the past, we’ve made SMTP become a file-sharing mechanism and made unicode become a clip-art provider. Maybe this time, we should spend more time figuring out what we want the web to do, instead of haphazardly forcing it to do everything³.

                                                                                                                                                                            Admittedly, JS is trying to become better.
                                                                                                                                                                            ¹ I admit, it is quite fun to make something do something it wasn’t explicitly designed to do.
                                                                                                                                                                            ² Being the hypocrite that I am, though, this doesn’t preclude me from actually using a web browser on OS X on an Intel i5 chip to share these thoughts with you. This is mainly because it seems to work well enough for now, and it looks nice.
                                                                                                                                                                            ³ Whoops, too late, it’s already used for everything. :(

                                                                                                                                                                            1. 5

                                                                                                                                                                              I wonder how people would react if programmers started writing self-modifying PDFs, thus transforming Adobe Reader into an application platform.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                It worked for the web, so why not just attach JavaScript to PDFs. :(

                                                                                                                                                                                1. 5

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don’t know whether I’m happy or depressed this exists. I’m a bit happy because it’s a great place to point people who are a little too eager to do everything in a web browser, however the existence of such a project makes me think that maybe we should all move over to TempleOS.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                                                                                                          Back to working on my PropellerEngine, wrote a blog post of the past progress here: http://devblog.laurimakinen.net/2015/04/rendering-update-and-physics/

                                                                                                                                                                          I also continued my HTML5 port of the engine. Currently 2D rendering with input is supported: http://37.139.28.111/local/dl/propeller.html

                                                                                                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                            Many different projects.

                                                                                                                                                                            • Dusted of old machine, installed debian on it and made a home-server (samba-shares + Jenkins, etc)
                                                                                                                                                                            • Started a project with Node.js (Using the Steam API)
                                                                                                                                                                            • Started a 2d physics engine. (Experimental/Educational project)

                                                                                                                                                                            My game-engine project has been on a halt for a week or so now, but I should be continuing that also.

                                                                                                                                                                            1. 6

                                                                                                                                                                              Continuing my game-engine project in C++.

                                                                                                                                                                              I am also going to test out Node.js with the new Visual Studio tools that were released.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                                                                                                                I have been working on my crossplatform game-engine written in C++.

                                                                                                                                                                                During the last weekend I managed to remove the last globals that caused crashes when running multiple instances. I had two instances running, but new entities were inserted into one instance, while processed in another. This is now fixed.

                                                                                                                                                                                Blogged about it: http://devblog.laurimakinen.net/2015/03/globals-removed-from-the-propellerengine/

                                                                                                                                                                                I may look a bit into audio side this week or add some graphics features.