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Yeah, “moderating” with a
don't make "hate posts"isn’t gonna cut it. There was glossed over reason for not liking electron followed by good discussion pointing to the actual reasons. This looked a lot more like a “frustrated and with good reason” post to me!If absolutely nothing else - there needs to be an explanation from @pushcx on what the specifics of
hateare!I sincerely hope that this type of moderation doesn’t become the norm!
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So… sarcastic remarks are now a no-no?
I find Electron to be a little too much bloated for my taste. I would not recommend it as a go-to solution for desktop applications, since not everyone really needs bundled web browser and
ffmpeg. That out of the way, feel free to talk about it’s advantages.Is this really better?
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Exactly this! Much nicer way to resolve this situation was to say in comments like “Hey, we consider this type of comments harmful because of etc etc etc… but no, they had to remove it. And the comment was not as problematic as they present it here. I don’t want to leave this place after 3 years of reading other people’s (well moderated) opinions. I kinda felt this is going to happen after JCS announced that he’s stepping out.
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Given the effects of rants on conversation (especially rants many of us have read many times), it would be nice to enforce stricter requirements on the writer of the rants to offer “constructive feedback”.
“I’m really tired of having to install Electron’s 200 megs” yeah we all are… “would be nice to have some shared libs/for people to rely more on OS-specific containers” OK now we have something that adds to the conversation.
And if we’ve all had this conversation before…. well… we can just not make the post (This one might apply to my own post but I don’t read it that often).
EDIT: I don’t necessarily think this requires deletion in most cases. Downvotes should work so long as people aren’t rage-upvoting….
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Here’s the original comment: https://web.archive.org/web/20171024080356/https://lobste.rs/s/a8wlq5/markdownify_minimal_markdown_editor#c_3e5lvd
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wait, it has 17 upvotes (if one is to believe the archived version) and then got deleted?
edit: and the “hate post” self-description was clearly sarcasm. even a non native speaker can see that. can we pretty please just use the voting system for moderation except for extreme cases (like, real hate speech)?
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Yeah, I’m not immediately sure how I feel about this. I agree that the comment was low-value, but I also haven’t traditionally felt that my feeling alone should be sufficient justification to delete, in part because others might disagree. That’s never been how lobste.rs does things.
I do acknowledge that without the accidental recursive deletion, the impact would have been lower, and of course that aspect of it was a one-off.
Now that the technical migration is done, the new leadership team should all talk at some point about moderation philosophy and get on the same page.
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To me personally it was low-value because it took me a while to understand (might have been easier if I’d seen it while it was up and therefore the article’s subject matter in mind…), and because I didn’t feel that I got much out of it after putting in that effort. It was a valid and accurate criticism of Electron and of the article, without being a constructive one.
It’s certainly legitimate to express feelings about the article and about Electron, and I appreciate that many people have strong feelings on technical subjects, and I wouldn’t ask anyone to suppress those feelings. I don’t think it’s something that shouldn’t have been said. But if I’d personally said something this short I’d have expected to be downvoted.
My personal approach is that if I don’t have anything to add about how we got to this bad situation, or how we might get out of it, I just don’t say anything. This is out of respect for the time people spend reading this kind of remark, and with awareness that it takes time away from reading other pithy critiques. :) I do not consider it appropriate to enforce that on others though.
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My personal approach is that if I don’t have anything to add about how we got to this bad situation, or how we might get out of it, I just don’t say anything. This is out of respect for the time people spend reading this kind of remark, and with awareness that it takes time away from reading other pithy critiques.
If it comes in the form a one-line comment less than twenty words long, I think the dear citizens of Lobsters will be able to stomach having your opinion fly across their screen without much hazard, no matter how non-substantive it is.
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It does to be fair go in both directions to some extent, since moderation philosophies impact who you get on a site and vice versa. But it’s tricky here because it’s a change in moderation team. People signed up basically expecting the jcs+Irene brand of moderation, but it’s not clear the pushcx brand is the same as that one. I personally feel very comfortable with the previous two moderators, and if they wanted to become a bit more hands-on as the community grows, I wouldn’t be too worried, because I trust how they’ve moderated the site so far. But a new moderator becoming significantly more hands-on than the existing moderation team makes me more nervous.
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FWIW, I think that any shift in moderation philosophy isn’t necessarily bad - I just hope it’s something discussed openly as a meta post, considered thoughtfully, and implemented transparently. That transparency was one of the features that pulled many people here and I’d hate to see it change.
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Yeah, I’m not immediately sure how I feel about this.
I am: a censor abused his powers. In a just world, he would be forced to step down and suffer with the rest of us mortals. Fortunately for him, this is not a just world.
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This still doesn’t make them “clearly a better moderation system”.
like i’ve said: “imho”, but i have felt as i typed “clearly” that it would be a point of criticism for some.
A mix of both is very usual and proven.
to quote myself:
can we pretty please just use the voting system for moderation except for extreme cases (like, real hate speech)?
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I don’t care much for the reasons given in the article. To me, it’s the fact that I can run it over SSH, and of course the modal editing (note the fact that Emacs has a VI mode, but not the other way around :^) ).
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I don’t either. But I only use vim over SSH. For me, the refactoring powers of modern IDEs are worth far more than the editing capabilities of vim. And I don’t have to have a finicky and fragile setup. Not to mention how much time it takes. I used to be a very big vim user with a huge init.vim (ok Neovim user, but whatever) but I found myself significant more productive in a jet brains IDE.
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It helps that Ideavim (the official vim-keys plugin for Jet Brains’ IDEs) is really quite good (though I’m not a vim power user). I can’t see myself going back to vim for regular coding - I like my IDE features too much, and I actually think people who eschew good IDEs are needlessly hindering their own productivity, or perhaps haven’t really been exposed to the power of (for example) a great debugger.
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I think it varies widely by language. I’m a big Vim fan, but If I’m writing C#, no chance you’re pulling me away from Visual Studio. VsVim is not quite as good as real Vim, but you’ll never beat the IntelliSense auto-completion, realtime syntax and type checking, a real Go To Definition, build and unit test support, TFS source control support, etc.
On the other hand, if I’m writing Ruby or Python, I’d rather use real Vim and do anything I can’t do in it on the command line. Most of that other stuff is either not possible or not needed with the more dynamic languages.
Haven’t done as much Java personally. I think it’s more usable on the command line than C#, but doing it in IDEA or something instead is such a huge boost for all the same reasons.
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Here’s an idea: use IRC, where there’s no rate limited API and Discord, Inc. can’t tell you what to do
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The multi-client experience is poor, all the history solutions are poor, embedded images and links aren’t supported (and the community is hostile to them) which in turn makes good integrations very difficult, authentication isn’t standardised and again the community is hostile to standardizing it. IRC is pretty bad and whenever there’s a proposal to make it better there’s too much “get off my lawn” to get anything done.
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[Comment removed by author]
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I wouldn’t mind your fork if it didn’t violate the authors’ copyright. If you re-add the MIT license block in the LICENSE file, you are free to do whatever you want.
I doubt your fork will be successful in the long run though, because it looks to me like an overcomplication, but time will tell and experiments are always fun.
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I really tried hard to explain this to the OP but he/she wasn’t at all bothered by it - https://github.com/small-utils/xmenu/issues/1
Oh well…
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Thanks for taking your time to bring this issue up.
The original MIT license block really has to be in the LICENSE file. The reason for that is that each source file has a header of the form
/* See LICENSE file for copyright and license details. */By definition, each source file would have to have the MIT block, but for the sake of simplicity, it has been “exported” to the LICENSE file. It is not sufficient to just list the authors in the README, because that’s not where the license notice points to in the source files.
By the way, please stop assuming the OP’s gender to be within the patriarchal norms “he” or “she”. OP might as well be non-binary or have no gender at all. /s
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As a small note: You are free to use the MPLv2 for xmenu, however I have to tell you that it will be impossible for you to enforce it, should the problem arise at some point in the future. MPLv2 is a weak copyleft license, however, if an entity violates that and this goes in front of court, they would argue based on the fact that it has originally been licensed under the MIT license. Copyleft basically only works for complete works, because it is easy to argue that the secondary changes made to a program were not in violation of the copyleft and within the bounds of the MIT license. I understand your enthusiasm to use the MPLv2, but in the case of this fork, it’s just senseless.
The authors of the GPL are aware of this fact and explicitly state that the GPL only works with complete works (or say: original works). Forking a MIT project and licensing it under the GPL is legal, as long as the MIT license is still included, but makes no sense because the very permissive nature of the MIT license destroys the GPL unless the project really has been substantially rewritten with changes licensed under the GPL.
As you probably won’t do that with xmenu, I’d keep it under the MIT. If you can sleep better at night with the MPLv2, go for it.
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You can not do that, because unlike MIT, MPLv2 is restrictive in that regard. What you can do is keep the project as MIT and put the MPLv2 license block at the top of the C4.md file. You also don’t need to include the whole MPLv2 license. If you have the single file C4.md, you can write at the top “This document is licensed under the MPLv2 license” and be done with it. As long as you do not modify the C4.md file, you are not publishing derivative works and are safe anyway.
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I believe you amassed a lot of down votes for downplaying the importance of the license, removing copyrights and then saying that if someone cares he can do the work for you of adding it back in.
It doesn’t matter if it’s the first time you had contact with licenses, you should show some respect and read on the subject before doing changes.
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Lobsters is a strange forum in terms of whether people will vote at all on a comment or how much. It’s a high-reading, low-writing forum in general which contributes to its low noise impression. The only thing votes should tell you here is what to keep posting or not posting. Your situation is straightforward, though, given your actions:
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You slammed a community that has some respect here talking about their hostility toward your contributions. Made it something really bad as opposed to just not in their interests.
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At least one person started linking to mailing list showing the opposite.
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You removed all credit to the original contributors in your files. Stealing credit is universally hated by any merit-based profession. It’s also illegal in this case.
You got downvotes for these by the people who just wanted it off the site or to punish you for that behavior. Others took the time to write counterpoints or helpful advice. Then, your comments recognizing your wrongdoing and/or apologizing for this got upvotes. That is, your corrective actions received positive feedback from some that were downvoting you before.
To me, it looks like a combo of curation and peer review that’s working as intended by admins and community. There’s nothing prejudicial or pointless going on in the voting. If wanting good reception on forks, just follow the licenses and don’t slam the other parties. Simply say you disagreed so you’re forking it.
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You removed all credit to the original contributors in your files.
This is also, unfortunately, an extremely common misunderstanding of the MIT/BSD “permissive” licenses. Especially in the proprietary software world, where simply copy/pasting MIT/BSD code into your codebase without acknowledgment is rampant. People sometimes find it out later through disassembly, but usually it goes undiscovered.
To be honest almost nobody seems to understand how these licenses work, even though they aren’t that complicated. You can add restrictions to them, ranging from GPL-type copyleft restrictions all the way up to “all rights reserved” proprietary restrictions, but must in all cases maintain the original copyright notice and acknowledgment of the original authors, in both source and binary distributions of the derivative software. Large companies like Microsoft and IBM, not to mention probably a third or so of FreeBSD’s downstream users, repeatedly demonstrate that they do not understand this, so it’s hard for me to be too harsh towards random free-software forks without legal teams that also don’t understand it.
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I agree with you misunderstandings are common. I wasnt even griping about that much as the rest. It’s more ethics to me where people building on others’ work should give them credit. Their names in a file aren’t hurting anything. Author could just add his or her name to list of contributors. So, it was more insult than legal injury I was focusing on.
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To be honest, the corrective function is too punitive. It doesn’t take hostility to make social people behave in most cases including this one.
I’d think they’d reply the person doing wrong complaining about the results should’ve not done wrong in the first place. Personally, I lean more toward constructive criticism which you already received from others. Others might save time just saying take that BS out of here.
“This could be the last comment I ever write on lobste.rs. Adios amigos.”
Or just submit interesting tech links, stick to technical debate in comments, have facts to back you up, and so on. These will get positive response here and at other tech forums especially since you still got upvotes even in this thread. This very thread would’ve gone 100% differently if you just said, “Here’s (project). It’s a fork of (other project) to add (differentiating features) that didn’t fit with (other project)‘s goals. Also, I’m using (contributor policy) to see if increases amount of contributions or reduces friction with this project like it did in ZeroMQ project.”
Boom. Something possibly worth upvoting, commenting on, or contributing if any reader is interested in that sort of thing. I’ve generalized it to show it can work for many other submissions.
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What caustic comments? I saw this thread had a lot of comments and got curious, after reading all of this I think every single person in this thread was quite level headed and explained your faults (with evidence) very clearly. Multiple people have asked for sources of the abusive comments and I am here to echo that and extend it to this community. I don’t see a single traditional “hate speech” internet comment.
The most terse it got in here was when you removed authorship and violated the license. You might be “new to copyright”, but you in fact attacked those peoples rights and they were nothing but civil to you. I wouldn’t have blamed them for actually being angry to be honest.
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This feels like pure school bullying. Is it so hard to imagine there are people who know little about copyrights? Is it what you say to someone who makes mistakes? Did I say I knew well about copyrights and still ignore them? This is clearly someone who doesn’t care about hurting others because his comments are not linked to his real-life identity. This community is hostile to newbies. It seems people don’t accept the fact that people are not born with knowledge.
to stay with your school analogy: people expect you to do your homework. you are lucky that the suckless people aren’t a big company, which would have instantly sued you. no friendly introduction to copyright and licenses, just a letter from a lawyer.
i have the feeling that this community expects you to rtfm, and i like it that way (community: correct me if i’m wrong here).
i learned from “my years in the internet” to think thrice before i click the post button, which is a valuable lesson. many conflicts can be avoided by this.
This thread lacks empathy and feels even sociopathic. Given that 4~8% of the population are hardcore psychopaths, some people would be actual psychopaths.
you should be careful with such assertions. one could think this is namecalling again. you wouldn’t want people to think that, being interested in treated good yourself.
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I stand behind my words and I would have said them to you face-to-face.
Stopping caring about downvotes is a good thing, they are just internet points that mean very little in the long run. Caring about them too much just turns the conversation into “me-too” circlejerking with no other opinions raising up in fear of losing internet points.
Not really sure that what parts of internet you are using, but Lobste.rs is one of the nicests places around.
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Thanks for the examples.
Personally, I’m often confused because people see hostility where I see none. I don see hostility in those examples either. This worries me, because it means that I my comments could be seen as hostile without me intending it.
My only idea would be to use more smilies/emojies. Would the following remove the hostility?
You should not expect us, people who all make our livings and channel our passions into programming, to shrug off your actions without some degree of affront. ?
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This is clearly someone who doesn’t care about hurting others because his comments are not linked to his real-life identity.
Maybe I just don’t care about hurting others who keep disregarding good advice and who, at the first sight of conflict, cry “help help i’m being repressed!”
Also, have the guts to cite my name: @angersock . Failing to cite sources is basically what landed you in this mess, in case you’ve forgotten.
(Also, you shouldn’t assume gender on the internet, pro tip, unless you are able to back up why you think a he is a he. I’m a sock, preferred pronouns sock’s/sockself).
This community is hostile to newbies
Other folks, like @ruki, were newbies and have presumably had different experiences.
This community is hostile to people who make accusations without good evidence and who try to tar the good (ish) name of others. @FRIGN, for example, was pretty reasonable until you got them annoyed.
Painting us all with the same brush is also what got you here.
rain1 turned out to be a relatively reasonable man, though.
@rain1 tends to be a bit of a sympathetic ear on this sort of thing, rightly or wrongly. A lot of us aren’t.
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at one point downvotes were deactivated, but that also wasn’t optimal. https://lobste.rs/s/csd2tj/week_no_story_downvotes
saying someone is hostile for not accepting patches is hostile in itself (i haven’t read the original discussion). i guess this led to downvoting you. maybe combined with the license fuckup (which can happen and seems to be fixed).
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I get mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it forces enough transparency that some people might do it less on impulse or consistently troll a person. On the other, it can escalate politics where people might accuse each other of biases and ganging up. That would create nice tangents like this one where we discuss or argue about votes instead of OP. I didn’t suggest it for that reason.
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The old Kuro5hin made votes public, and I found the opposite. If someone just never liked my comments and downvoted them routinely, that was fine, it’s easier to ignore it. If someone I respect downvoted one I might think twice about whether I was at fault. Removes the weird uncertainty/anxiety around “one or more community members, but we won’t tell you who, don’t like your participation here”. And people were less likely to feel the need to ask “who downvoted this and why?!” b/c you could see who downvoted it, and based on that, could often surmise why.
And for the upvotes it was even more useful. Made the place feel less impersonal. Instead of counting “7 anonymous people liked this post”, you started to recognize names of people who consistently read/liked your posts. It also made it easy to give a quick “thanks for the reply, that was helpful” by upvoting without replying to end a thread, if that’s all you had to say. Similar to the role likes play on Facebook and Twitter, more recently.
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People are ganging up against me and crocket with comment downvotes and it’s basically the worst part of the anonymity the internet provides with none of the good parts.
i wouldn’t call it “ganging up” if a comment has around 0 points. that may be only one downvote.
i guess the best thing would be to just ignore it if you are downvoted. maybe just someone on the other end having a bad day.
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This may also be a cultural thing. Suckless is heavily influenced by German culture, especially when it comes to criticism. I am German myself, as most of the core suckless developers are.
From what I’ve learned over the years, the US-American way is rather superficial. You would never publicly criticize a person too harshly. In case it happens, it is considered a personal attack to publicly shame somebody. Maybe we are witnessing a cultural shock. Me being German, I am used to harsh criticism, even in front of many people. It’s not considered an attack, but by the general German public it is considered honorful to address problems in such an open way. In my opinion, it is also the most efficient way to deal with criticism.
For someone who grew up with the US-American culture, this may lead to a completely different interpretation. Added to this, we are dealing with textual communication, which omits 95% of non-verbal communication.
“Basic protection” just leads to censorship, because unpopular opinions get reported and removed. You may draw a line at attacks, but for that, you’d need fair moderators, which are often not given. So better yet, the individual should learn to deal with this aspect of internet communication and move on.
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Clear rules always need people who enforce it. If none are present and this is moved to the readers, we end up with censorship of unpopular opinions.
However, if the manpower is present, I agree with you that it can work out very well. The subreddits you mentioned are a good example.
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There were some degrees of verbal hostility.
You need to quote things in support of this kind of accusation, as that is itself a kind of hostility.
This thread has been, by and large, very polite to you considering that you erased the owners and authorship of a bunch of peoples’ hard work from the code you decided to fork.
Whether on purpose or by accident, you plagarized others’ work.
I’m sorry if this is viewed as an “attack”, but it’s the truth. If you read the licenses in question, there’s little doubt that what you did was both against the license (illegal) and against the legacy of the people whose work you’re building on (immoral).
You should not expect us, people who all make our livings and channel our passions into programming, to shrug off your actions without some degree of affront–especially when you chose to be so glib about supposed hostility from the people you stole from.
EDIT: One minor addition–you sorta argue elsewhere that “well I thought the commit history was enough”. If these files are ever moved to another system, or if the VCS loses that commit information for whatever reason, then the copyright and license information in those files is the only way that attribution is correct.
If somebody else decides to fork your project (because it’s now MPLv2 and should be okay to do so!), and then is too lazy to preserve history (and this happens all the time when transferring bewteen VCSs), then magically the authorship of the library is lost.
As I said elsewhere, just put the attributions back, keep the license, and spend your innovation points on improving the code instead of the legal stuff.
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although getting downvoted by anonymous people feels horribleGrow yourself a skin and shrug it off as it is supposed to be. This is the internet and wild things happen here. I am amazed you lose sleep over some downvotes while in other places on earth, people are struggling to get clean water or in war zones are not sure if they’ll survive the day. Keep that in mind. I’m telling you this in a friendly way, hoping you have not fallen into depression due to that and other factors.
Look around and put your life into perspective. This way, these downvotes will become irrelevant, as they are. We are facing a dramatic financial crisis in the next 2 years and face existential problems along the way, maybe even the danger of a world war. We have never been closer to a nuclear war since the cold war ended. Inform yourself and stop worrying about “hostile attacks” by people you don’t know. Most of the time, downvotes exist for a reason and in general, the internet is a volatile place.
You are also working within the comfort of anonymity, so what’s the problem? All this stuff won’t be attached to your name anyway.
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Using multiple licenses in the same project is a headache for everybody involved.
Stop being cute, just use the MIT license.
(also really you figured you could just “lol I’ll delete this license i don’t like”? srsly?)
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Really?
I’d hope not, and would find that fairly disturbing; I tend to watch the moderation log and have never seen any entries, and for the moderators to do those changes without an entry would go against the site’s pledge for transparency.
I’d hope this is simply “tempers cool, calmer heads come in, and people tend to undo the downvotes”.
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This reminds me of so many other situations wherein open-source projects have problems with Windows (that would not be problems if more of those devs were Windows devs) and usually people don’t notice right away because no one is testing it. I think this is still a thing when it comes to Python tools on Windows.
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Not all problems can be preempted by tests :)
In this case it was more like the tests didn’t really do a full registry fetch; since the tests all run without needing internet iirc. Even if the tests did do a registry fetch, this would only be caught the next time someone ran the tests against a modified registry, you can’t preempt this problem until it happens. People did immediately notice however and ping the team so it could be rolled back.
Last I checked we were testing all platforms for cargo and rustc.
Many rustc devs use Windows so it’s not that bad. Though it did take a while to get proper debuginfo on windows way back.
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Amen. I’ve personally been Linux-only for about a decade, but I maintain an open source command line tool that purports to work on Linux, Mac and Windows. Windows has been a neverending hole. (And I say that without blame. Perhaps it isn’t Windows fault, and it’s just my unfamiliarity with the platform, or maybe it’s just how end users have adapted their interaction with the platform. Nevertheless, this is my experience.) Just off the top of my head, without looking at my issue tracker:
- Colors in a terminal are done completely differently than on Unix, and require synchronous interaction with the Windows console. If your tool writes to stdout from multiple threads, this is a problem. (I’ve fixed this.)
- Windows users are split between cygwin and PowerShell/cmd users, which means Windows actually needs to be able to support ANSI coloring too. (I’ve fixed this.)
- There’s no portable API for determining, on Windows, whether you’re at a tty or not when you factor in both console and cygwin users. (I’ve fixed this.)
- Windows programs are responsible for doing their own globbing on arguments given to argv. (Not fixed.)
- Long file paths require special attention and don’t Just Work. (Not fixed.)
- Symlinks are a minefield, in general, especially when cygwin gets involved since cygwin has its own “seamless” path translation code. (Not fixed.)
- Defining “aliases” or “wrapper scripts” is purportedly so hard (according to my users) that a configuration file for including common flags in my tool is a hugely desirable feature. (Not fixed.)
There are more problems, but I’d have to go look at my issue tracker to remember them. Some of the aforementioned issues would be fixed if I were linking with cygwin and using those APIs, but then Windows users are forced to use two separate binaries based on which environment they’re in. (And there are operational problems with me using cygwin this way anyway, since I’m not using C.)
I’ve also started getting bug reports from Windows users that are using Bash on Windows. I’m not looking forward to supporting a third environment just from within Windows itself.
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I’m helping an engineer at work setting up better dependency management for his c++ projects, the life of a windows dev is hard… I mean just getting a way to compile libmodbus properly is a challenge we still havent solved (Short of putting the files manually in the project or cross compiling from linux to windows)
How do win devs get c/c++ libraries outside of the .net ecosystem?
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Wow, this article has more red flags than all the official buildings in Turkey combined. Just looking at this article, I’d guess that teamed.io is probably a terrible place to work at.
I’m a passionate programmer, and I’ve built a game in my free time. I explore new languages, study the fundamentals of computer science and abstract math. I have no interest in developing crappy open source libraries for the sake of building a profile in languages and ecosystems that encourage billions of dependencies. My personal interests (that I’m passionate enough to spend my spare time) are too niche to bother write libraries for. And even if I did write open-source libraries, it’d get 2 stars on github due to the niche domain. I also personally think certifications are useless (no offense to people that think otherwise, just my personal opinion), and anything that fancies me is probably too unexplored to be given certifications for. In Stackoverflow you get far more reputation for answering beginner questions, which only demonstrate that you’re wasting your time on Stackoverflow trying to gain some rep by jumping on simple questions.
All your heuristics are stupid metrics that can easily be gamed, and they ARE being actively gamed. The passionate programmer in me despises these metrics and has no interest in maximizing them.
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I’m still not entirely convinced that it isn’t.
Take a read at http://www.teamed.io/
Tap into a distributed global network of the highest-caliber programmers, working under our control
and
There are 70+ software developers working with us at the moment, but these guys are simply the best: [list of names]
and
Quality of Code is Exceptional; It is the highest in the entire industry.
Just scream parody
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Though he does write similarly obnoxious blog posts:
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Wait, you mean you can be a great programmer without spending time amassing tons of Internet Points?
It was only a matter of time before we assigned vanity metrics, such as open source project popularity and SO reputation to have actual meaning. Nevertheless, it is still sad to read.
I weep for the Internet of before where striving for fake points on websites was seen as meaningful only within the context of the site itself, and, beyond that, somewhat silly. You may counter with, “but, how will we know if so-and-so has skills?” That remains your problem, and not something you foist onto bullshit metrics.
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I think you paint an overly pessimistic view of contributing to the body of open source software and helping beginners.
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I’m sorry, you’re right, these things are undisputedly good by themselves (especially the way you put them). My objection is to the way these things are distorted by the likes of the author as well as those that game the metrics. Contributing to open source is a very noble activity, but spamming crappy libraries and saying “f* you and your problems, I did this for free!” for the sake of github stars is not. Helping beginners is good, but claiming you’re an expert because you were first to answer how to concatenate two strings, which earned you 150k points is not.
My tone was probably overly defensive though.
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It’s quite telling of their culture that in their second point as to why open source projects are important they say:
I often hear something like “my company doesn’t pay me for open source contribution and at home I want to spend time with my family.”
They “debunk” the first part but they never again mention why some people would rather spend time with family.
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The example is quite misleading. You cannot just change your health and ammo in counter-strike values as those are handled on the server side.
I doubt you can do that in assault cube if you run the server on a different machine…
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rtpg
2 years ago
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link
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How much faster would it be to render Toy Story in 2011 compared to how long it took in 1995?
And to think we all complain about compile times of 15 seconds….
But 30 minutes seems insane for ray tracing a single frame. Is there really that much stuff going on in these movies?
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Global illumination is fairly expensive (at least the algorithms I looked at back in the day). I would guess a lot of CPU time is spent in shaders as well. And there are all sorts of deformations and what not that need to be applied to the models. And there are a lot of things in each scene.
The wikipedia page on the Reyes algorithm has some interesting information but doesn’t directly answer your question:
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Personally, my main reason for not using Atom as an editor is because it’s a web browser.
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Its a sad direction for software development. Just bundling applications inside a browser and releasing it as a “app”.
Then saying that there is enough CPU/RAM to waste, for example Spotify can take up to 30 seconds to launch. All it has to do is to steam music, display lists with some images.
Javascript has its places and uses, but building desktop applications on top of it is just lazy.
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On the one hand, I generally agree that the bundled-up-webpage style of “native” app development results in a crappy product. There’s plenty of examples of this.
On the other hand, specifically in the case of Atom, which is trying to be a sort-of 21st century Emacs, it makes a lot of sense to want the UI to be expressible as a well-understood, easy-to-work-with DOM.
This enables plugins to do a lot of things with UI that are hard-or-downright impossible in Emacs' ad-hoc, highly limited UI modification hooks (it’s damn near impossible just to draw a vertical line in emacs).
Is HTML the optimal DOM for a text-editor-cum-programming-environment? No. But it’s well-known and well-understood, and starting from scratch would have taken a lot longer.
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I learned about picture-mode thanks to this comment. SO COOL!! Thank you! BRB making all the ascii arts…
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I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand as you said native code is always going to be faster, “feel better” (tighter intergration with the rest of the system), etc. However a lot of native GUI frameworks are pretty messy. (Anyone who has worked with GTK will likely know the pain that it brings). The web model at least provides a nice separation between the design and the program logic. (There are other more native frameworks that do this to some extent, but I feel this is still a significant reason why the web model is used so much). I also like how the web model allows for portability and distributivity with (relative) ease. This does not mean that I feel the electron/node-webkit method of developing software is a good one, and I personally can’t stand using programs made in this way, if for no other reason than my PC is relatively old and the slowdown is noticeable. I do think native frameworks have something to learn from the web, and in an ideal world I would like to see some kind of method of building GUIs that can be served over the web or natively and function well in both instances.
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I also have mixed opinions, in part because while I’m a bit skeptical of the webtech-everywhere trend, the native-GUI-toolkit side of things is a gigantic mess too, and often not even that native. There are definitely people who do write 100% native GUI applications, but that requires going all-in on one platform. A fairly strong niche are the people who develop OSX-only applications, using all the Apple APIs directly, trying to do things in line with the OSX norms and look-and-feel guidelines, etc. The downside is that when you go all-in on native OSX like this, your app only runs on OSX.
The in-between option is a cross-platform toolkit that translates to the native GUI toolkit. That ends up as a kind of halfway house, using the native widgets to get as close to a native look-and-feel as possible, but by necessity not quite using them idiomatically, because they need to be unified or abstracted over in a way that can target a bunch of platforms simultaneously. GTK, Qt, and Java’s Swing sort of fit in there, and while they work, I wouldn’t really go out of my way to sing their praises as the one true way to do GUIs.
You can even sort of see the wrapped-webkit type of app as a roundabout realization of something that was a goal of a lot of desktop-Linux people in the late ‘90s: that instead of people writing GUI apps to a specific platform’s toolkit (usually Windows), the GUI layer should be done in a library, with the platform only needing to provide something relatively low-level and common, like a framebuffer to draw the widgets in. Tk was an attempt at that that enjoyed some success for a time.
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the one unreservedly good thing i can say about web-on-the-desktop is that it’s the lazy way to develop applications. “lazy” means that you have done what you wanted to do with the least amount of fighting with various toolkits, languages, etc that make your task harder. the fact that you pay the price in cpu and ram consumption and potentially in responsiveness is a huge drawback, but that just means that no one has made a good enough “lazy” alternative yet.
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But HTML5 is native in Internet Explorer 9, 10, 11 and 12 on Windows! (Only on Windows!)
How do you want your HTML5?
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Partly, yes, it’s due to the performance. Even on a fast computer, if you open enough such apps, the entire computer will end up slowing down. However, I also find the tendency of the web tech model to try applying itself to everything a tad… superfluous and useless.
Originally, HTML was designed to add links to a markup language, then CSS was added to stylize it, and finally JS was added as a scripting language for the web. Since then, it has all been evolved into being used for nearly everything, from text editors to web browsers. It wasn’t designed for this; it was designed as a way to display text, and link to other text. Nowadays, HTML and CSS seem to have become a UI specification that is difficult for both computers and humans alike to process, and JS has become a haphazardly thrown together mess
⁰with the mindset that it should encompass everything.Personally, I can understand the urge to try to get something to do everything
¹, but that of course means that there comes an increase in complexity. Complexity is usually never good, you end up with things like this or this happening. Complexity also causes speed issues, which is what the majority people seem to dislike about such efforts. However, mainly I find the complexity of a web browser sitting atop the complexity of an operating system sitting atop the complexity of a backwards-compatible CPU to be appalling to think about². We might as well create an operating system that is mostly a web browser to help reduce complexity.It is the very attempt to use “web tech on the desktop model” that I dislike about it, not merely side effects such as the performance hit. In the past, we’ve made SMTP become a file-sharing mechanism and made unicode become a clip-art provider. Maybe this time, we should spend more time figuring out what we want the web to do, instead of haphazardly forcing it to do everything
³.⁰Admittedly, JS is trying to become better.
¹I admit, it is quite fun to make something do something it wasn’t explicitly designed to do.
²Being the hypocrite that I am, though, this doesn’t preclude me from actually using a web browser on OS X on an Intel i5 chip to share these thoughts with you. This is mainly because it seems to work well enough for now, and it looks nice.
³Whoops, too late, it’s already used for everything.:(-
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It worked for the web, so why not just attach JavaScript to PDFs.
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I don’t know whether I’m happy or depressed this exists. I’m a bit happy because it’s a great place to point people who are a little too eager to do everything in a web browser, however the existence of such a project makes me think that maybe we should all move over to TempleOS.
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Back to working on my PropellerEngine, wrote a blog post of the past progress here: http://devblog.laurimakinen.net/2015/04/rendering-update-and-physics/
I also continued my HTML5 port of the engine. Currently 2D rendering with input is supported: http://37.139.28.111/local/dl/propeller.html
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Many different projects.
- Dusted of old machine, installed debian on it and made a home-server (samba-shares + Jenkins, etc)
- Started a project with Node.js (Using the Steam API)
- Started a 2d physics engine. (Experimental/Educational project)
My game-engine project has been on a halt for a week or so now, but I should be continuing that also.
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Continuing my game-engine project in C++.
I am also going to test out Node.js with the new Visual Studio tools that were released.
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I have been working on my crossplatform game-engine written in C++.
During the last weekend I managed to remove the last globals that caused crashes when running multiple instances. I had two instances running, but new entities were inserted into one instance, while processed in another. This is now fixed.
Blogged about it: http://devblog.laurimakinen.net/2015/03/globals-removed-from-the-propellerengine/
I may look a bit into audio side this week or add some graphics features.
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Why the title says chrome extension? Its also for Firefox! I didn’t even first notice that this post was relevant to me also!
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My setup really changes between what project I am working on.
Most of my coding is on Windows or a remote connection to a different operating system from the first machine. This way all the core tools like browser etc stays always the same. I also prefer this because I don’t want to reboot my computer to play games.
C++ coding
For C++ coding my choice is VS 2013 with following extensions:
- vsvim
- Go to definition
- VisualGDB
For source control I use git. The VS has currently pretty solid git tools build in, but I still use the msysgit on the side.
When coding stuff for Linux in c++. (Servers, etc.) VisualGDB is amazing. I need to consider buying it after the trial.
Coding on Linux
If I end up coding on Linux directly. (PHP, random scripts, something) I use tmux, vim, git and other tools.
I prefer to run Linux on a VPS/virtualmachine and directly connect to it over SSH. I do not currently have any GUI installed on any of my Linux boxes.
Documentation and source control
On my personal projects documentation is in the code and some random .txt files in the codebase. I am currently not using issue trackers on my personal projects, other than a todo.txt file that I fill with stuff thats broken.
For source control I use Git, with Github for public projects and Bitbucket for private stuff.
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I wasn’t sure sharing my tools/workflow would help you much, as you state you’re on Windows, but I saw your comment saying you’re waiting for an Ubuntu install.
I don’t use anything particularly out of the ordinary: i3 window manager, rxvt-unicode, zsh, vim. But what I will certainly advocate the use of: tmux. If you’re not already a user, pick it up, use it heavily. It changed the way I work for the better.
It really helps keep things organized - for instance, I always have 3 sessions running: management, support, and personal. Each session will dictate what kind of tools are open or what kind of actions I carry out. I’m a sysadmin, so maybe these session names don’t speak wonders to you, but I’m sure there’s certain ‘categories’ that segment your workflow, and embodying that in a few shells can really help manage how you conduct your work.
I am, of course, only pointing out one tiny feature that I find really useful, tmux is so much more, go read up on it if you’re unfamiliar.
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Yup I’ve been using tmux for a decent amount of time, it’s great!
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As it’s similar, I’ll join mine right here.
Tools:
- FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT on a 13.3" UltraBook
- i3 window manager – the WM_CLASS to workspace magic is gold.
- xterm
- zsh
- ssh-agent (with different ssh keys for different purposes, think login to
hosts, pull from git repos, …) and this helpful snippet in ~/.ssh/config:
Host *
ControlPath ~/.ssh/sockets/master-%l-%r@%h:%p
ControlMaster auto
ControlPersist yes
TCPKeepAlive yes
ServerAliveInterval 5
ServerAliveCountMax 1
tmux (with exposed
SSH_AGENT_PIDandSSH_AUTH_SOCKvariables)- git (for work and fun)
- svn (for FreeBSD purposes)
- mutt
- gpg
- irssi
When it comes to development practices:
- git flow – http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
- Code Reviews (we use GitLab, MergeRequests are easy to create with feature
- branching)
- Jenkins for Unit/Integration/Regression testing.
… and of course, the practice of not doing releases on Fridays.
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Most likely continue the work on the entity editor in my game engine. During the last weeks I have gotten the runtime compiled c++ working, that was easier than I expected in the end.
Some video from the C# editor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrOjRxE5E1Q
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Or tag them with april fool’s tag.
This way people could still have discussions about them, and may even fool some people who aren’t reading the tags :P
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Yeah you can be direct without being a dick. “I won’t merge something that breaks the kernel, please find some other way.” would have worked just fine.
And in fact, that’s how it works most of the time.
Linus’ reputation as an asshole is due, in part, to selection bias, and the high profile of Linux. Thousands and thousands of merges go into the kernel all the time without a problem, and without Linus going off on a rant.
I don’t work on the kernel, but my observation has been that the big blow ups seem to only come after people repeatedly break the rules. I won’t say Linus handles it well, but I don’t think he’s as bad as some maintainers in some smaller open source communities.
It’s survivor bias, not selection bias. He also owes a lot of it to businesses that got his kernel out there plus make up a lot of contributions. It’s not as if him being an asshole combined with some FOSS contributors that loved that asshole equals success of Linux.
Not that it makes a difference, but I believe I was correct in calling it selection bias. Nobody will post to Lobste.rs or write an article when Linus is being nice, so in general people only see the bitchy posts, hence the bad reputation.
I don’t think that’s strictly true.
I think there are a few salient points here:
Even adding in that first bullet from you and jlarocco, I think I still agree with about everything you said. It’s consistent with my position that he goes too far with the bad stuff.
I have never ever behaved this way to my colleagues, and I suspect you haven’t either. So to call it selection bias is to ignore that he’s doing something that the vast majority of us would be fired for. It’s not okay to rarely shout down your coworkers. Sure it’s better to do it rarely than every single day, but the fact that we keep examples of this is a clear example that he has no checks and balances.
And generally these are people who have a corporate position that makes them believe they are entitled to break the rules.
The only thing I’m getting tired of is people pulling the odd email out of thousands and wringing hands over how mean Old Man Linus is.
Maybe folks should reflect on how, after 25 years of loud and blatant protestations by Linus, fucking morons keep trying to merge the same types of userspace breaking bugs.
Maybe, sometimes, a broader more accepting tent isn’t the answer.
If Linus being famously mean for 25 years hasn’t produced a productive culture, perhaps it’s time to try a new approach.
But it has produced a plenty productive culture - a culture that produces a better end product than many more professional environments, in fact.
Professionally “rewarding”, still toxic at the personal end. It’s mentioned in this article mentioned at the main link.
And little of value was lost. This is how Sarah Sharp tried to publicly humiliate the guy with a wife and daughter - https://lwn.net/Articles/559077/ :
I disagree with labelling things and people as “toxic” in general, but I’ll choose Linus over Sarah any day: https://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/10/05/2031247/linux-kernel-dev-sarah-sharp-quits-citing-brutal-communications-style
Did we read the same mail? Did you read any of the quoted parts from Linus? A guy that refuses to even consider treating people with respect is a clear-cut asshole. I’d much rather work with someone that talks about treating people with dignity than someone that refuses to consider the concept seriously.
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You got it backward. Linus is the special snowflake here if he can continue to be that unnecessarily-abusive publicly with no consequences just because his work just happened to get popular in that way. Expecting people to deliver constructive criticism or not chase away good talent is the default for those managing good teams in most places. A manager/leaser simply getting off on abusing those doing work is adding nothing of value to the project in doing so.
Instead of a snowflake, people just expect to be treated with decency by default with shitflakes like Linus able to get away with being exceptional jerks.
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That would be a good trait if he had it. Instead, he’s still pushing monoliths in unsafe languages with limited metaprogramming. Took forever to get it reliable versus Minix 3’s a few developers in a few years. So much for his decisions being merit-based. ;)
Linux is modular.
There was no serious alternative to C back in 1991 and, as much as I love metaprogramming, it increases the amount of surprises for the programmer.
It’s easy to be reliable when your biggest deployment is on Intel’s spy chip.
Minix was little more than an emulator pet for a few CS students, before that. Low on drivers, low on performance, low on functionality. You might as well compare Linux with L4…
It’s modular in kernel mode for full compromise and crash potential. There were a bunch of memory-safe languages used in other OS’s before 1991, esp from Wirth, whose safety could be selectively disabled. Worst case compile them to C to leverage compilers while dodging programmer-related problems like some projects did.
“It’s easy to be reliable when your biggest deployment is on Intel’s spy chip.”
DOD is one of Red Hat’s biggest customers and sources of funding for contributions to Linux. Lots of kernel bugs were also found by analysis and testing tools from CompSci similarly funded by US-government. I agree that helps but a company just freeloaded off Minix 3. Should’ve went with GPL.
“Minix was little more than an emulator pet for a few CS students, before that. Low on drivers, low on performance, low on functionality. “
You should’ve seen the first Linux. It was similar but crashed more. Meanwhile, several years earlier than 1991, QNX folks were building a microkernel-based UNIX that became reliable as hell, fast, and deterministic. The Playbook versus iPad comparisons were the first I got to see with multimedia after BeOS. In both, the multithreading without stalling abilities were mindboggling versus the better-funded, older competition. My Linux systems can still come to a crawl over misbehaved applications to this day. Things that the others made highly unlikely with better architecture.
You’re arguments were who used it and features that came with labor put in. Either one of those put into better architecture would’ve made an even better Linux. So, they’re neutral points. Mine was Linus wouldn’t listen anyway. If you believed him in Linus vs Tannenbaum, things like the Playbook w/ QNX and BeOS would’ve been impossible to program easily or perform well. Way wrong cuz he’s about politics and arbitrary preferences as much as merit. Like most developers.
It has, though?
What I meant was that newcomers seem to be ignoring 25 years of norms and others being surprised when those newcomers–who are doing dumb things–are told to knock it off.
Yeah, With “productive”, which seems to have been a really poor word choice, I meant one that didn’t have to teach the same thing over and over in the way you described. Sorry to you and the other responders for the confusion.
Thanks for the clarification, and agreed.
Linux is the most successful, widespread operating system kernel of all time. You can say the man’s rude, but you can’t say the results demonstrate unproductivity.
The others from Microsoft, Apple, and IBM also were driven by assholes who were greedy on top of it. Just throwing that in there even though Im anti-Linus in this debate.
There’s honestly no good reason to be hostile. It doesn’t actually help reduce the problem, evidenced by the fact that what he has done hasn’t worked. Instead they need processes for check in, code reviews, and linters. Linus should be delegating more as well if this is bothering him so much.
That’s not a theory supported by the evidence.
What he’s done hasn’t worked. Most contributions are from businesses. Many good talent say they avoid it. That seems to be evidence of something. Meanwhile, the Rust crowd managed to get piles of people early on for one of the hardest-to-learn languages I’ve seen in a while. They used the opposite approach. Now, two projects or even ten aren’t a lot of datapoints for an empirical assessment of which method is working. Oh, what can we do to see how much or how little damage Linus is doing to kernel in terms of lost contributions?
Oh wait, it turns out researchers in universities have been doing both observational studies and surveys on large numbers of organizations and people for decades covering this very thing. A key question was which management styles have most positive impact. One thing that’s pretty consistent in the research is that people working for assholes were much more likely to half-ass their work on purpose, dodge doing work, or even sabotage that person where possible. People working for those that treated them with respect or constructive criticism did better work. That kept being a result of most studies. Crazy to ignore decades of consistency in human behavior when trying to decide how best to treat them in a FOSS project for achieving goals such as more contributors, higher-quality contributions, and so on.
The theory supported by the evidence is that Linus’ style when doing what’s in the OP is unnecessarily rude and destructive. The evidence says he’ll loose a lot of talent since that talent just needs a worthwhile project to work on rather than his project. Just like he feels he doesn’t need them. Objectively, such a result is bad for the project if one wants it to improve. He might be willing to sacrifice features, QA, and so on for the personal enjoyment of those insults. That is what he’s doing. Anyone defending him shouldn’t pretend otherwise. Instead, they should shift to their actual argument of “I know we’re losing contributors that could’ve made the Linux kernel even better. The main reason is Linus’s personal preference. We think that’s a good status quo to maintain because…” That does look to be a harder position to defend, though, on either technical or moral grounds.
Just to say, would be nice if you posted source of the research you’re referencing.
I’m too much of an overloaded procrastinator to give it to you. I’d have to resurvey it as I bet the Web 1.0 sites are gone, new ones have formed, and I’ll have to dig through tons of noise. I do plan to either find or do another meta study on that in future since it’s so critical. For IT, I always told people to read the PeopleWare book and Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. Lots of managers hand out the latter believing it’s great advice. Implies they think blunt assholes are non-ideal. The No Asshole Rule book also cited a bunch of studies on effects of people being assholes downward or upward in an organizations recommending against it.
I do need to recollect the studies, though. Plus do a new bookmarking solution I’ve been procrastinating on since Firefox is full to point it constantly looses bookmarks lol.
Linux would not be what it is today if they would be “merge-first-fix-later” type code-conducted safe place for noobs to mess around in.
If you’re going to be derogatory, safe space is properly mocking.
There is a near infinite gap between “let the noods do whatever they want to the codebase” and “don’t degrade people’s character because they submitted a PR you dislike”.
I guess some people are just more tolerant of a project leader taking their anger and frustration out on people trying to get involved?
The problem isn’t that he wouldn’t merge the person’s code. The problem is the unprofessional way that he treats other people. The fact that you think the problem is that he wouldn’t merge the code is either deeply concerning or purposefully avoiding the issue.
If you actually read the damn thread, you see that Linus actually explained this pretty clearly: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1711.2/01357.html
The person decides to ignore Linus and Linus gets angry, I really don’t see a problem here.
Ok, I read the full thread. It’s more reasonable in the other parts. Kees seems to have put some work into making it acceptable. Later on, I see someone do what Linus should’ve done in the first place in giving specific details about where he’s coming from in a way that wouldn’t have bothered me as a contributor:
http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1711.2/03732.html
After seeing that, I’m more annoyed by whoever was half-assing security contributions to the kernel so much that it will be hard for worthwhile contributions to get in.
Yeah, same here - I think there are just special snowflakes who think that human psychology has anything to do with whether or not the kernel is going to continue running reliably for me, the kernel user. Guess what snowflakes, nobody cares about the feelings if the product doesn’t work.
Not to mention, this is only the squeaky wheel - Linus has been nice and professional and accommodating many, many times over. Many more times over, in fact. It just never makes the news ..
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I’m not used to navigating the CVE database, is there an easy way to restrict issues to just the Linux kernel?
Nope. I think he’s great. And I’m very glad that he is stewarding the Linux project to this day. Whether you think its ‘nice’ or not, his management of the Linux kernel has produced superlative results - and sometimes, in the thick of the mob, you have to be an asshole to get people to work the way they need to work to continue producing quality results.
What I am sick of, is petulant snowflakes who think they know better than Linus how to manage the 1000’s of developers that want to have their fingers in the pie. The kernel doesn’t care about your feelings, and neither do 99.9999% of the kernels really important people: its users.
Since when did asking to be treated with the bare minimum of basic human decency become a “special snowflake” thing? Nobody wants Linus to write “You’re so wonderful, and special, and beautiful, but I cannot accept this patch because, despite how wonderful and unique it and you are, it just won’t work with Linux’s performance requirements.”
NOBODY is asking for that. So I don’t get why I keep seeing “special snowflake” thrown around. I guess it’s just a strawman? (OH WAIT I GET IT NOW!)
Notice how your comment is verging on “nobody can critique the way Linus runs the project (that we all rely on in myriad ways)”. Aren’t snowflakes the ones who want to shut people down and stop discussion? Isn’t it the “snowflakes” that want to prevent people from having to hear mean things? (Like, stop taking your anger out on contributors because you’re not 7 anymore).
Doesn’t it kind of seem like–and bear with me here, I know it hurts–that you’ve become the special snowflake? Stifling discussion, needing a space where someone you look up to is immune to criticism, insulting people who are just trying to have a conversation?
Isn’t it your post that seems to be the petulant one here?
Precisely at the point where well-established ground rules, respected by the rest of us, were continually broken with no regard for the work load incurred, nor the hassle of having to deal with all the noise. Or did you miss the part where known, functional, productive policies were repeatedly ignored in the rush to get this patch included in the next release?
Its one thing for a contributor to feel like they should be treated with respect as a special snowflake whose feelings are more important than the work, or in this case non-work, that they are contributing to the lives of others; its another thing to respect the very foundations of the activity from which one is attempting to derive that respect in ones own life.
Perhaps you missed the part where this could have been a disaster for the Linux kernel, and a lot of time was wasted having to deal with it, since the original developer decided to ignore the policies, well-since established as being necessary to the task of managing the Kernel patch integration process?
Well, whether you like it or not, its the truth: Linus has guided the way through decades of these kinds of events, and we have an extraordinarily powerful tool that has revolutionised computers as a result. Perhaps you ought to consider whether the quality of your own work and contributions might improve if you harden up a little and don’t take offence so easily. Time and again, this proves to be true - in the real world and in this fantasy land we’re currently sharing as participants in this thread.
The poster involved in this incident seems to have accepted that they were, in fact, violating a fundamental policy of the Linux kernel developer group, and has addressed the issue in a way that moves things forward - how, exactly, would Linux kernel development be pushed forward by your insistence at being treated like a snowflake?
A mistake was made - the policy was not followed - and Linus jumped on the guy. He’ll never do it again, many many others have also learned the importance of the check-in policy (Rule #1: Don’t Break The Kernel.) and he doesn’t seem at all worse for the wear, personally, as a consequence; its really only folks such as yourself who are getting so easily upset about this, because Linus somehow doesn’t conform to your particular cultural ideal.
Perhaps you haven’t been following Linux kernel development for long, or with much attention - there are many, many counter-cases of Linus having great relations with the developer group, which don’t seem to figure into your equation that “Linus is rude”. He’s precisely rude when he needs to be, and an awesome, polite, respectful individual, all the while. Please try to avail yourself of that truth before you continue ad-hoc insults and insinuations against random Internet strangers. It hurts my feelings to be challenged by an ignoramus.
Are you assuming that I wouldn’t want to be called a snowflake when appropriate? Because, I’m quite a snowflake, and often, when its appropriate or otherwise. Absolutely nothing with being called one, when you are one. Or, is there some other kind of kettle we should be boiling for tea?
If a security vulnerability is introduced by design it’s still a bug. It just means the mistake was made at design time as opposed to implementation time.
In all sincerity here, what would it mean for a person to say, “I’m not going to tolerate this behavior?”
Linus would still own the Linux trademark. He’d still control the mainline kernel repo. The “lieutenants” that manage various areas of the kernel would still control those areas and report to him. It seems very unlikely that they would support a coup. (Anyone who had a major problem with Linus’ behavior wouldn’t have lasted long enough to get one of the top positions.)
As a user, you can choose not to use or support Linux. But as a user, you don’t get to change the way the project runs.
I think the most extreme option you’d have would be to fork the source code and try to attract both a large developer community and a large user base on the basis of running a more inclusive community. But there’s a chicken-and-egg problem to that approach.
There’s an implicit hypothesis that says, “A more inclusive community will produce a better kernel.” Let’s assume that proves to be true. Some users would switch on that basis alone, but most will wait to see practical benefits. Since it would still take time for a fork to produce tangible benefits, you’d have to attract developers and users with the promise alone. We have a small set of cases to examine, where a major open source project was forked with the intention of creating a better community. It appears that the majority of users will hang back with a “wait and see” approach.
I really don’t know what kind of negative feedback anyone could apply to Linus that would have an effect.
Working code doesn’t care about your feelings. Working code is completely orthogonal to human emotions. My computer runs whether I’m crying or not.
Maybe you should run a kernel made by the CoC crowd. I’ll stick with the foul-mouthed guy.
The only one I know off top of head is Redox OS since it used Rust CoC. It’s got potential but is alpha software. All the rest that are good seem to be made with different philosophies with a range of civility.
I am interested if anyone knows of another usable OS made with all activity enforced with a CoC a la Rust/Redox. At least the basic console or GUI apps so it’s usable for some day to day stuff.
https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html :)
Good catch. This one…
“There can be no place within the FreeBSD Community for discriminatory speech or action. We do not believe anyone should be treated any differently based on who they are, where they are from, where their ancestors were from, what they look like, what gender they identify as, who they choose to sleep with, how old they are, their physical capabilities or what sort of religious beliefs they may hold. What matters is the contribution they are able to make to the project, and only that.”
…is where the politically-motivated try to find a lot of wiggle room for censorship as beliefs vary. One reason I collect these is so we can look back at data in commits or on forums to see what impact they have. Note I said OS that was made with the activity enforced this way. Some could have it added as an evolution of moderation policies well after it’s a successful project that was built on a different philosophy. How long has that CoC been in FreeBSD?
It’s relatively new - it was announced in July 2015. Even before the CoC was added a few developers were ejected for abusive behaviour (I’m not going to dig those out, but you can find references online).
Ok, so it’s not an example of an OS developed under the CoC. It was a highly-mature OS that probably started with really different kinds of people just because they were the norm for early days of BSD’s and Linux. With your comment, they were just using common sense of ejecting folks who were obviously abusive without anything more formal or constraining. That still leaves Redox as the only one I know that had the policy and supporters of it from the start.
The main way I think this can be tested is with frameworks or libraries that are in same language and crowd. Basically, keep the situation as close as possible so about the only strong variable is community style. Should be easier with libraries or frameworks since they’re more accessible to new contributors. People are always doing more of those.