1. 2

    Excellent post! I absolutely love writing bash—you can do some very golfy stuff with it. I’ve written shlide, a pure bash presentation tool. There’s a lot of funky shit in there, that you might find interesting.

    1. 3

      Used this for a few presentations during my internship, excellent tool! You can get very creative with shlide and a Quake-style terminal, my code demos turned out awfully smooth. :)

      1. 1

        That’s awesome to hear. ;)

      2. 1

        Fab, definitely going to check it out, the name has me hooked already! :)

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        Happy to see Serenity getting this kind of exposure! Very well-deserved.

        1. 3

          But what’s the benefit, really? Using only one CPU core is a huge handicap, it won’t run most software, and the browser sounds limited too. And AFAIK it doesn’t offer anything technically innovative under the hood like a microkernel. (Plus that UI … I know it’s a matter of taste, but to me Windows 95 was a gray-and-pus colored eyesore.)

          (I don’t mean to flame, I’m just wondering what the appeal is beyond the wow factor of “someone built an OS from scratch”.)

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            It’s in the article, right? The guy’s in recovery and needed, or needs, a substitute activity.

            I know a bit of how people can do in such a situation, and I’m sure wrangling Linus or anyone else in a bigger project would lead to a relapse. No joke.

            Stuff like single-core isn’t a handicap, it’s a good start. Hoping of course the SMP support / scheduler will look like Haiku’s so the desktop remains responsive ;)

            Any wow factor beyond the backstory is personal to whoever is into these projects.

            1. 17

              Plus, it’s fun. I poked around SerenityOS and tried my hand at fixing a bug or two (no PRs yet, I’m not in the best spot, either, but soon…). It’s just a light-hearted hobby project that can brighten a nerd’s evening like no other.

              Its community is really nice, too, nobody well ackshuallies you because your program has so many options it’s intimidating for new users, reviews don’t bring up things like what particular method you use to build your Docker container or whether the way you’ve done something is fashionable in the latest C++ standard.

              It may not look like much, but lots of things that start out as fun eventually turn out to be useful through sheer inertia, precisely because people end up doing things that are unthinkable in the real world, like, I dunno, interfaces that you can use on a small screen :-P.

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              I will almost certainly never run SernetyOS, ReactOS, or Haiku but I’m still happy that the projects exist and I like to see news from them.

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                There was a period where reasonable people could (and did) make similar criticisms of Linux as an OS. It couldn’t run a lot of the software you needed. To “get things done”, you needed windows. Only enthusiasts could make it work.

                I think most people are aware of the dizzying tower of abstraction on which modern development sits. There are pros (scale from a toaster to the cloud! use this library!) and cons (performance! complexity!) to this, but - for some problem domains - cutting that away for a fresh start is a feature not a bug.

                If a new OS is going to ever grow up under the heavy canopy of the existing ecosystem, it will look like this at first.

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                  Speaking as someone who wrote a little bit of the libc, I share the frustration it’s not at all original. However, what I do like about it is the heart and spirit of it. Andreas’ enthusiasm is very infectious.

                  1. 4

                    Personally I think the independent browser engine alone makes SerenityOS worthwhile. Creating one is a Herculean task that even enormous corporations will not attempt, but having multiple browser engines is vital for the health of the open web. There are so few browser engines left besides Blink+WebKit that I consider it to be an emergency. SerenityOS’s browser may not be very impressive at the moment, but it could potentially be a starting point for a new competitive browser engine the way that KHTML was the starting point for the current dominant browser engines.

                    If Servo can somehow survive, I’d consider that to be a better basis for a competitive browser, but if SerenityOS runs well on older / cheaper machines, perhaps a browser based on it could find a niche on low-powered hardware.

                    And if having an alternate browser engine implementation is worth getting excited about, what other independent implementations of things exist in SerenityOS that merit attention? Maybe I’ll install SerenityOS and investigate.

                    1. 3

                      Eh. It’s not the choices I would have made for a personal project, but given that it started as one dude scratching a personal itch … I’m happy to see it. My own nostalgic itch-scratching would end up looking a lot more like classic Finder on top of Symbolics, but with two kids and such it’ll always be an unrealized daydream. Good on this dude for pushing through and Doing It.

                  1. 5

                    If anyone would like to share, I’ll ask: how and when did you end up joining the site?

                    I first found Lobsters in 2014, when someone mentioned it on HN as a more pleasant community. There were fewer comments then and the point totals were much lower, but I remember enjoying every post I read. I think a huge factor was how memorable the domain name was, I knew it without googling after seeing it once. I was a poor undergrad taking a leave of absence, and my phone and laptop were broken at the time, so I would read posts on workstations at my dad’s office while helping him with IT stuff. Honestly this site means a lot to me for that; at a real personal low, it reminded me that CS wasn’t just my experience with school.

                    1. 2

                      I’ve seen a mention on reddit and applied, somehow got in.

                      1. 2

                        2014 for me too. I had been thinking of leaving HN after the ridiculous pending comments scheme had been announced. Somewhere during the discussion of it back in those days, I saw Lobsters mentioned as an alternative. I took a look, liked what I saw, and asked in the queue for an invite.

                        1. 2

                          I’ve had the pleasure of knowing @pushcx for close to two decades at this point. He mentored me in programming fundamentals over that time and I found myself watching on of the Lobste.rs live programming streams for fun one evening. While discussing the stream he sent me an invite and I have thoroughly enjoyed having a sane source of news ever since.

                          1. 2

                            I was a lurker for a while before I actually got an invite.

                            I came across @jcs’s blog after getting into OpenBSD (it was probably around 2019, so fairly recent). On there I found an old post complaining about the state of the orange site’s moderation. There’s a tiny link at the bottom of the post to a website…

                            After finding Lobsters on that blog post I lurked here, reading stories, never bothering to get an invite until one day I came across someone (on Discord, funnily enough) who said they had an invite for someone who wanted it.

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                            Reading this hit me, but frankly didn’t surprise me. I went to Northeastern while Matthias was teaching there, and had heard tales from week one of his temper toward students. Hell, I heard them from other professors.

                            It’s a real shame, I love Racket but the negativity and elitism surrounding it at NEU prevented me from ever feeling like getting more involved.

                            1. 1

                              If anyone wants a story of what NOT to use, here you go:

                              I recently moved somewhere where Xfinity was the only option. They said that Fios would be coming within 2 months, so I decided to go with the router rental fee while waiting for the chance to splurge on a nice fiber-optic modem. Still waiting on Fios five months later.

                              The Xfi router has been nothing but pain. Things I haven’t had to do in a decade, I have to do again. Power cycling the router constantly, being VERY cautious during video calls about how much bandwidth I’m using, you’d really think I was paying for the cheapest option. (A side note: I know equipment is recycled by ISPs but do you really have to send me scratched and dirty routers?)

                              In terms of NAS, I keep it simple, running an SMB share on a Raspberry Pi. I’ve never had throughput issues, though directory listings take a little while in macOS Finder. Pretty great setup for the price, but no matter how secure I keep it, having it plugged into a router that wants to run an extra unauthenticated network for “subscribers” makes it moot.

                              1. 6

                                For me, it all depends where the weight is going. Heavy JS is a nonstarter, but I love browsing Neocities and its plethora of big gifs and poorly optimized headers.

                                1. 2

                                  One positive that I’ve learned over time about nano is that it’s consistent; before I learned the differences between vi, vim and vim.tiny (the minimal build Debian uses), I would often find myself looking for features that weren’t there. I’ve never seen a nano with features configured out, though I’ll have to peruse the source this afternoon to see what can actually be turned on and off!

                                  1. 3

                                    Perhaps I’m misunderstanding, but isn’t this simply the proper way to include VSCode? /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ is designed to separate non-Canonical sources from main/extra/universe, and it seems like this is MSFT’s way of providing rolling-release updates.

                                    Edit: I didn’t realize until rereading that this is the “lite” image, which makes this silly if not necessarily evil. Does Lite even provide a GUI?

                                    1. 2

                                      Does anyone have any recommendations for good epaper/eink devices? A lot of what I’ve seen are ereaders/tablets, which I’m not as interested in.

                                      1. 1

                                        I got one from Waveshare this month, but you’ll have to get/build the enclosure yourself. My 7” one fits nicely in a 4x6 photo frame.

                                        1. 1

                                          What size/interface/battery/input requirements do you have?

                                          Just a monitor, monitor + touch, hdmi/spi, mobile/fixed?

                                          1. 2

                                            Because it’s a single company who owns the patents, I think you can get an exhaustive list of products here: https://shopkits.eink.com/

                                            1. 1

                                              I’m curious about any that are an assembled thing. Monitors, laptops, phones.

                                              1. 1

                                                There used to be an hdmi display made by Waveshare and there were a few phones - Yotaphones.

                                          1. 29

                                            I’m so sick of lobsters. From the profiles that post and have (presumably RL) pictures, and from tapping through the invite trees of posters, it feels like there is very little racial, class, and gender diversity here. The ensuing discussion on threads involving diversity are sickening to read and pretty much reinforce this perception. They are orders of magnitude worse around this than threads on HN about this stuff, which is hard to believe.

                                            I doubt I’ll be sticking around. If anyone who operates this thing cares to make it more diverse and less of a dumpster fire and happens to see this, consider that only allowing members to invite members might be partly why diversity is so poor here (at least when it comes to commenters). I’m not advocating to open the floodgates, not totally sure what the solution is (it’s a hard problem in general), just proposing that as a potential problem

                                            But anyway, at least for the meanwhile, this is not for me. Have fun downvoting/flagging me into oblivion

                                            1. 8

                                              Most comments here are pretty happy or at least politically indifferent with the change made by Git: where are the “not diversity friendly” comments that reinforce your perception of oppressive content ?

                                              From the profiles that post and have (presumably RL) pictures, and from tapping through the invite trees of posters, it feels like there is very little racial, class, and gender diversity here.

                                              If we are being open to each others, why would you even consider anyone ethnicity, gender or class to judge their arguments ? Should we not aim for the complete opposite: care about the message, not the messenger ?

                                              1. 2

                                                I get what you mean, but one of the great things about Lobsters is hearing opinions from subject matter experts. If topics like this are going to keep coming up, I think it’d be nice to have more people familiar with the subject talking about it.

                                              2. 8

                                                I doubt I’ll be sticking around either. I already know a few other people who just stopped coming here because of similar issues. I’ve also noticed quite a few of the people in this thread complaining and spouting whataboutisms were also doing the same in that furry post from a couple of days back.

                                                @pushcx Maybe consider how this site is run and the outward image it projects when these types of topics come up. It’s a recurring pattern and not a welcoming one. You’re free to run your site how you want but there is a perception in certain off site circles about this site and the type of user here. If this is an image you’re fine with then that’s fine but don’t expect minorities to stick around, want to join, or recommend the site.

                                                1. 10

                                                  If I could upvote more than once, I’d give you all I had left.

                                                  1. 4

                                                    it feels like there is very little racial, class, and gender diversity here

                                                    I’m a racial minority who grew up in a low social class so I feel this on every tech site (where folks seem to have endless anecdotes about their gifted and talented program in their competitively ranked national high/secondary school, but none about how computers were expensive growing up which made experimenting with them difficult (in my high school, a sizable amount of people could not even afford computers)), and Lobsters is no exception.

                                                    But setting that aside for a moment, I think lobsters diversity problems extend even beyond this to technical content as well. I’ve been on Lobsters for a long time (6 years according to my profile), and the Lobsters technical community spends an inordinate amount of time focusing on PLT, especially as related to functional programming, and has a particular dislike of cryptocurrency. While HN and other tech social sites have similar biases, it feels so glaringly obvious on Lobsters that it feels like predictable groupthink. It’s to the point where I feel like I could game the karma system just by adding tags and keywords into a post title.

                                                    There’s so much more to tech out there. In particular, despite the huge growth in scientific computing over the last decade, I rarely see anyone here mention anything about Deep Learning, statistics, SAT, or convex optimization. We get the occasional post on 3SAT and Z3 seems to be somewhat popular here, but other than the occasional post on computer graphics, Lobsters largely ignores scientific computing. I never thought about this until your post, but I think the invite system might be a contributing factor.

                                                  1. 2

                                                    Oh wow, I knew trash80 through his chiptune, cool to see him working on this!

                                                    1. 4

                                                      So can we watch Netflix on FreeBSD now?

                                                      1. 3

                                                        I suppose it’s more about the use of FreeBSD inside the Netflix infrastructure.

                                                        1. 5

                                                          Yeah, that was the point. Netflix happily uses FreeBSD but couldn’t care less about FreeBSD users.

                                                          1. 15

                                                            Of course not. Why would a for profit media company waste (expensive) resources to support an OS that basically nobody uses on the desktop?

                                                            I know it sounds harsh, but Freebsd desktop use is irrelevant to any company.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              Gaming on Linux was mostly irrelevant until Steam found a reason to support/foster it (apply pressure on Microsoft + Apple and their app stores). Given that the PS4 (and presumably PS5) uses FreeBSD for it’s OS and Netflix supports that platform there’s probably some incentive there to upstream certain things. Though I presume Sony is happy to keep status quo for the moment.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                I imagine a lot of the PS4 graphics code they write is under NDA with AMD since they’re not just using off-the-shelf components, but I could be wrong. Has Sony given anything back?

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  Has Sony given anything back?

                                                                  Not that I know of but then I’m totally the wrong person to answer that question.

                                                            2. 7

                                                              Hey, at least they’re in the second largest donor class this year. I’d think FreeBSD Development would deserve more all things considered.

                                                          2. 3

                                                            Sure You can, In a Linux/Windows/Android VM under Bhyve :p

                                                          1. 2

                                                            May be 2020 Microsoft will open source it :P

                                                            1. 1

                                                              It’s a good joke because it’s plausible :)

                                                              Joke’s aside, at this point that could have serious implications for both microsoft and apple. To this day, I am not convinced that present day workstation operative systems offers are much better than what Windows XP could offer. I am including OSX and popular linux distros. Microsoft spend more than a decade pushing users away from it.

                                                              If it were to be made open source, it could be turned into a serious product with a strong value offer.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                I think this leak will expose the bad code quality of the windows os and will lead to windows’ further demise :D I’m very excited to see in-depth analyses and may be Microsoft may just surprise me.

                                                                1. 18

                                                                  The Windows 2000 source was leaked years ago. IIRC, the users of kuro5hin actually thought it was good quality, with extreme compatibility requirements dragging it down.

                                                                  People at Microsoft aren’t stupid, as much as Unix programmers like to think.

                                                                  1. 5

                                                                    People examining the code in 4chan threads seem to agree, the code looks to be of a decent quality. Some acummulated 4chan findings can be found here(warning - it’s 4chan, even if there is no nsfw content on that board).

                                                                    1. 3

                                                                      Here’s an archived version, in case anyone wants to peruse after the thread is pruned.

                                                                    2. 1

                                                                      Do you have a link for that? I think thatd an interesting read. I believe many proprietary software is of bad code quality. That has nothing to with stupidity, but with the corporate culture and business requirements.

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        Sure.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          Thanks!

                                                                  2. 1

                                                                    Getting all license holders to agree to open source would be tricky. It’s been a while since I looked at the Windows license screen for XP but I suspect MS paid for licenses for a number of applications and libraries.

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      Yeah, Citrix source permeates anything to do with multiple users, and IE started out life as a licensed program. Getting rid of licensing accessories is easy, but core components, not so much.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  I’m wondering if anything there can help developers of projects like ReactOS.

                                                                  1. 16

                                                                    NO! Nononono.

                                                                    Please, for any well-meaning people, if you’ve looked at this do not contaminate the ReactOS folks.

                                                                    My understanding is they work very hard to have clean reversing efforts, and that exposure to something like this–even a whiff–would taint that work in perhaps legally-significant ways.

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      Well, of course I didn’t mean: copy as much as you can. But maybe there’re some parts of the system which were really tricky to figure out. Like side-effects caused by bugs in original Windows which ended up being features. Obviously I didn’t want to get ReactOS devs into trouble :(

                                                                      1. 4

                                                                        No, of course not–I didn’t mean to imply you did.

                                                                        I just feel for those folks because screening new devs just got a lot harder.

                                                                      2. 2

                                                                        I believe they have had this problem already.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          I’m curious, do you have insight into how APIs are tested by the ReactOS team? Is everything done clean-room using specs, or do they run React on a network with Windows machines to test things like workgroups and Active Directory? I would assume that falls into fair use, but I’m no expert.

                                                                      1. 3

                                                                        Has anyone completed a download and perused it? Does it seem legit? Any files/executables we should be weary of?

                                                                        1. 3

                                                                          I’ve heard that a few people on /g/ downloaded and built it. An interesting revelation was that both GNU Make and GCC were used in the build process, even back in the Balmer-ara.

                                                                          1. 1

                                                                            GCC surprises me. Did the poster figure out which components used it vs MSVC?

                                                                          2. 2

                                                                            XP hasn’t been supported for many years. If you’re still running it in production you’re living on the edge.

                                                                            1. 22

                                                                              living on the edge

                                                                              No, back then it was still Internet Explorer.

                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                I don’t know if you replied to the wrong comment or something, but I really don’t understand what you’re talking about. Haven’t mentioned anything about running XP in production or anything like that…

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  Why should you be weary (sic) of components in an OS that’s deprecated?

                                                                                  1. 15

                                                                                    You’re making the assumption that the leaked package really contains the components in an OS that’s deprecated. I’m not making that assumption, as it wouldn’t be the first time that someone has used a leak story as a vehicle for distributing real malware that runs on modern computers.

                                                                                    Plus, even if the leak is real (or partially real) and the source code is being distributed, that doesn’t mean someone hasn’t added malicious stuff to it. That’s why I asked 1) does it seem legit, and 2) is there anything we should be weary of (e.g. the real source code is there, but there’s also an executable in the package that hasn’t been examined/vetted yet; hence, we can’t trust that it’s related to the leaked source code, so don’t run it)

                                                                                    So, no, you don’t need to be weary of components in an OS that’s deprecated. You need to be weary because there may be more than meets the eye with what’s being distributed

                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                      Thanks for clarifying! I agree 100%, I just missed the context.

                                                                                      I’ve flagged the 2 comments linking to the purported code as off-topic for partly that reason.

                                                                                    2. 2

                                                                                      While it hasn’t been supported. There are still multi-million dollar industrial machines that are running XP or older. The cost to upgrade those machine far out weighs the security risks to the company. So while Microsoft’s support of it is deprecated. The use of it isn’t.

                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                        As a rule of thumb, literally anything related to Windows gets an extra step of verification from me. It’s the most targeted platform for any sort of malware, and people will do practically anything to get malicious code running on someone’s machine. When I worked at my tech shop in college, I saw more than a few people running custom “flavors” of Windows, which may quickly become a thing with the source allegedly available.

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  There’s lots of great open source software, but because the look and feel of MacOS is constantly in flux, you may find things more outdated than you expect. Surprisingly, paid software on the App Store can sometimes be really great, and may be worth the value if you don’t mind avoiding a hardline FLOSS stance.

                                                                                  1. 10

                                                                                    I don’t even buy that Haskell is dead. There are enough notable developers (shoutouts to Joey Hess!) doing notable things that will continue to generate interest and participation.

                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                      (Full disclosure, I work for Akamai) I appreciate how open Cloudflare is about their incidents. Anyone who uses them, do you get direct contact about mitigation, or is it through their status site?

                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                        I have their cheapest plan - no notifications. I don’t particularly expect them at $20/mo though.