1. 5

    If I understand correctly, this is not without JavaScript, it is just without hand-writing JavaScript. The JS used is generated by a library on the server.

    1. 2

      Seconded. the title is clickbait-y

    1. 10

      Why do people think MS is doing all this? Do people really think a company worth 860 billion dollars has anything to give away for free? I do not want to go into MS bashing, but believing that a big company like MS is now altruistic and believing in making the world a better place is just naive. MS wants to be seen as cool and hip with the dev. crowd, esp. the young Sillicon Valley crowd, so that they can sell more Azure. They do not care about software freedom or anything like that.

      1. 12

        Goals can align. Microsoft might care about software freedom because that improves their business in some way. In this case, their goal is obviously to collect metrics about users. Almost all of the code is open though.

        1. 3

          I don’t think thats an obvious goal at all - metrics about users. A perfectly acceptable goal is to regain mindshare among developers. vscode can be seen as a gateway drug to other microsoft services, improving their reputation.

          1. 2

            I wonder what metrics from a text editor would be useful to them?

            1. 10

              I want metrics from the compilers I work on. It’d be super useful to know what language extensions people have enabled, errors people hit, what they do to fix them, etc. Sounds mundane at first, but it’d allow me to focus on what needs work.

              1. 8

                Well, VS Code doesn’t choose your compilers :)

                either way, I don’t get the paranoia. Performance telemetry, automated crash reports, stats about used configurations – not stuff that violates privacy in any meaningful way. It’s weird that this gets lumped in together in the general paranoia storm with advertisers building a profile of you to sell more crap.

                1. 8

                  Issue #49161 VSCode sends search keystrokes to Microsoft even with telemetry disabled

                  It’s not even paranoia so much as irritation at this point. I know my digital life is leaking like a sieve, and I’d like to plug the holes.

                  1. 3

                    Kinda clickbait issue title. Yeah, keystrokes are always a lot more worrying than metrics, but this is settings search. I guess you could Ctrl+F search for something secret (e.g. a password) in a text file, but not in the settings.

                    1. 12

                      You know, there was a time when it was big news if a commercial program was caught to “phone home” at all. It didn’t matter what the content was.

                      (Today, you’d call a ‘commercial program’ a ‘proprietary application’.)

                      It’s still a big deal today if an open source/community maintained/free software application ‘phones home’, because reasons: untrusted individuals, the value of big data, and principles of privacy.

                      Now that M$ is in the game, let’s add ‘untrusted corporation’ to that last list.

                      I don’t care what the nature of the data is–I don’t want to be observed. Especially not as I ply my craft–few activities produce measurable signals from any deeper inside myself, and every one of those is definitely on my personal ‘no, you can’t watch!’ list.

                      1. 1

                        For me personally, I have no problem adding telemetry to apps I maintain. But I’m sure going to make sure users know about it and can disable it if they want. I think that’s the real issue - consent.

                      2. 5

                        That’s having to think way too hard about what they’re intercepting.

                2. 4

                  Platform it’s running on, type of code being edited, frequency of use for a given feature. Heuristic data about how people interact with the UI. The list goes on. Note also that none of this need be evil. It could be seen as collecting data looking to improve user experience.

              2. 3

                I’d guess they’re after a platform. They want to build a base (using organic growth) that they might later on capitalize on, either by learning from it to invite people to use (proper) Visual Studio or by limiting VSCode’s openness.

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                While I agree that the article is probably true, the biggest problem with Electron, and a lot of modern software development, is that “Developer happiness” and “Developer Efficiency” are both arguments for electron, but “user happiness” and “user efficiency” aren’t.

                Electron developers are incentivized to develop applications that make users happy in the small- they want something that looks nice, has lots of features, is engaging. The problem is that in their myopic pursuit of this one-and-only goal too many apps (and electron is a vanguard of this trend, but not the only culpable technology by far) forget that a user want’s to do things other than constantly interact with that one single application for their entire computing existence.

                That’s where electron as a model breaks down. Electron apps are performant enough, and don’t use too much memory, when they are used by themselves on a desktop or powerful docked laptop- but I shouldn’t have to be killing slack and zoom every time I unplug my laptop from a power source because I know they’ll cut my battery life in half. I shouldn’t have to ration which slack teams I join lest I find other important processes swapping or getting oom-killed.

                Even without those concerns, Electron apps selfishly break the consistency of visual design and metaphors used in a desktop experience, calling attention to themselves with unidiomatic designs.

                We do need easier and better ways of developing cross-platform desktop applications. Qt seems to be the furthest along in this regard, but for reasons not entirely clear to me it’s never seemed to enter the wider developer consciousness - perhaps because of the licensing model, or perhaps because far fewer people talk about it than actually use it and so it’s never been the “new hotness”.

                1. 7

                  the author specifically calls out what the problem with QT is.

                  Native cross-platform solution like Qt tend to consider themselves more a library, less a platform, and have little to offer when it comes to creating auto-updating software, installers, and App Store packages.

                  Don’t be so dismissive of peoples choices with the ‘new hotness’ criticism.

                  1. 5

                    I think you misunderstand what I’m saying. My claim isn’t that Qt would solve every problem that people are looking to electron to solve if only it were more popular. My claim is merely that of the cross-platform native toolkits, Qt seems to be both the furthest along in terms of capability, and also seems to be one of the less recognized tools in that space (compared to Wx, GTK, Mono, Unity, heck I’ve seen seen more about TK and FLTK than Qt lately). I suspect that Qt could grow and support more of what people want if it got more attention, but for whatever reason of the cross-platform native toolkits it seems to be less discussed.

                    1. 3

                      Especially with QML, Qt feels just like the javascript+bindings world of the web

                      1. 2

                        Just to be clear, this is the workflow I have currently if I’m targeting Electron. Can you show me something comparable with Qt?

                  2. 7

                    This is an overly simplistic argument that misses the point. Desktop app development has not changed significantly in the past five years, and without Electron we would simply not have many of the Electron-powered cross-platform apps that are popular and used by many today. You can’t talk about “not optimizing for user happiness” when the alternative is these apps just not existing.

                    I don’t like the Slack app, it’s bloated and slow. I wouldn’t call myself a JavaScript developer, and I think a lot of stuff in that world is too ruled by fashion. But this posturing and whining by people who are “too cool for Electron” is just downright silly.

                    Make a better alternative. It’s not like making an Electron app is morally worse than making a desktop app. When you say “we need to make desktop app development better” you can’t impose an obligation on anyone but yourself.

                    1. 6

                      without Electron we would simply not have many of the Electron-powered cross-platform apps that are popular and used by many today.

                      I don’t really remember having a problem finding desktop applications before Electron. There seems to be relatively little evidence for this statement.

                      1. 2

                        Please do not straw man. If you read what you quoted, you will see I did not say no desktop apps existed before Electron. That’s absurd. You also conveniently ignored the part of my sentence where I say “cross-platform”.

                        Obviously we can’t turn back the clock and rewrite history, so what evidence would suffice for you? Maybe it would be the developers of cross-platform apps like Slack, Atom, and VS Code writing about how Electron was a boon for them. Or it could be the fact that the primary cross-platform text editors we had before Electron were Vim and Emacs. Be reasonable (and more importantly, civil.)

                        1. 4

                          I think Vim and Emacs, traditional tools of UNIX folks, propped up as examples of what Slack or VS Code replaced is also a fallacy you’re using to justify a need for Electron. Maybe better comparisons would be Xchat/HexChat/Pidgin, UltraEdit or SlickEdit for editor, and NetBeans or IntelliJ IDEA for IDE. So, those products sucked compared to Electron apps for reasons due to cross-platform technology used vs other factors? Or do they suck at all?

                          Nah, if anything, they show these other projects couldve been built without Electron. Whether they should or not depends on developers’ skills, constraints, preferences, etc on top of markets. Maybe Electron brings justifiable advantages there. Electron isnt making more sophisticated apps than cross-platform native that Ive seen, though.

                          1. 2

                            I think you and the other poster are not making it very clear what your criterion for evidence is. You’ve set up a non-falsifiable claim that simply depends on too many counterfactuals.

                            In the timeline we live in, there exist many successful apps written in Electron. I don’t like many of them, as I’ve stated. I certainly would prefer native apps in many cases.

                            All we need to do is consider the fact that these apps are written in Electron and that their authors have explicitly stated that they chose Electron over desktop app frameworks. If you also believe that these apps are at all useful then this implies that Electron has made it easier for developers to make useful cross-platform apps. I’m really not sure why we are debating about whether a implies b and b implies c means a implies c.

                            You point out the examples of IntelliJ and XChat. I think these are great applications. But you are arguing against a point no one is making.

                            “Electron is just fashion, Slack and VS Code aren’t really useful to me so there aren’t any useful Electron apps” is not a productive belief and not a reasonable one. I don’t like Slack and I don’t particularly like VS Code. But denying that they are evidence that Electron is letting developers create cross-platform apps that might not have existed otherwise and that are useful to many people requires a lot of mental gymnastics.

                            1. 5

                              “You point out the examples of IntelliJ and XChat. I think these are great applications. But you are arguing against a point no one is making.”

                              You argued something about Electron vs cross-platform native by giving examples of modern, widely-used apps in Electron but ancient or simplistic ones for native. I thought that set up cross-platform native to fail. So, I brought up the kind of modern, widely-used native apps you should’ve compared to. The comparison then appeared to be meaningless given Electron conveyed no obvious benefits over those cross-platform, native apps. One of the native apps even supported more platforms far as I know.

                              “All we need to do is consider the fact that these apps are written in Electron and that their authors have explicitly stated that they chose Electron over desktop app frameworks. If you also believe that these apps are at all useful then this implies that Electron has made it easier for developers to make useful cross-platform apps. “

                              It actually doesn’t unless you similarly believe we should be writing business apps in COBOL on mainframes. Visual Basic 6, or keeping the logic in Excel spreadsheets because those developers or analysts were doing it saying it was easiest, most-effective option. I doubt you’ve been pushing those to replace business applications in (favorite language here). You see, I believe that people using Electron to build these apps means it can be done. I also think something grounded in web tech would be easier to pick up for people from web background with no training in other programming like cross-platform native. This much evidence behind that as a general principle and for Electron specifically. The logic chain ends right here though:

                              “then this implies that Electron has made it easier for developers to make useful cross-platform apps.”

                              It does not imply that in general case. What it implies is the group believed it was true. That’s it. All the fads that happen in IT which the industry regretted later on tells me what people believe was good and what objectively was are two different things with sadly little overlap. I’d have to assess things like what their background was, were they biased in favor of or against certain languages, whether they were following people’s writing who told them to use Electron or avoid cross-platform native, whether they personally or via the business were given constraints that excluded better solutions, and so on. For example, conversations I’ve had and watched with people using Electron have showed me most of them didn’t actually know much about the cross-platform native solutions. The information about what would be easy or difficult had not even gotten to them. So, it would’ve been impossible for them to objectively assess whether they were better or worse than Electron. It was simply based on what was familiar, which is an objective strength, to that set of developers. Another set of developers might have not found it familiar, though.

                              So, Electron is objectively good for people how already know web development looking for a solution with good tooling for cross-platform apps to use right now without learning anything else in programming. That’s a much narrower claim than it being better or easier in general for cross-platform development, though. We need more data. Personally, I’d like to see experiments conducted with people using Electron vs specific cross-platform native tooling to see what’s more productive with what weaknesses. Then, address the weaknesses for each if possible. Since Electron is already popular, I’m also strongly in favor of people with the right skills digging into it to make it more efficient, secure, etc by default. That will definitely benefit lots of users of Electron apps that developers will keep cranking out.

                              1. 2

                                Hey, I appreciate you trying to have a civilized discussion here and in your other comments, but at this point I think we are just talking past each other. I still don’t see how you can disagree with the simple logical inference I made in my previous comment, and despite spending some effort I don’t see how it at all ties into your hypothetical about COBOL. It’s not even a hypothetical or a morality or efficacy argument, just transitivity, so I’m at a loss as to how to continue.

                                At this point I am agreeing with everything you are saying except on those things I’ve already said, and I’m not even sure if you disagree with me on those areas, as you seem to think you do. I’m sorry I couldn’t convince you on those specifics, which I think are very important (and on which other commenters have strongly disagreed with me), but I’ve already spent more time than I’d have preferred to defending a technology I don’t even like.

                                On the other hand, I honestly didn’t mind reading your comments, they definitely brought up some worthwhile and interesting points. Hope you have a good weekend.

                                1. 2

                                  Yeah, we probably should tie this one up. I thank you for noticing the effort I put into being civil about it and asking others to do the same in other comments. Like in other threads, I am collecting all the points in Electron’s favor along with the negatives in case I spot anyone wanting to work on improvements to anything we’re discussing. I got to learn some new stuff.

                                  And I wish you a good weakend, too, Sir. :)

                          2. 3

                            Please do not straw man. If you read what you quoted, you will see I did not say no desktop apps existed before Electron

                            And if you read what I said, I did not claim that you believed there were no desktop apps before Electron. If you’re going to complain about straw men, please do not engage in them yourself.

                            My claim was that there was no shortage of native applications, regardless of the existence of electron. This includes cross platform ones like xchat, abiword, most KDE programs, and many, many others. They didn’t always feel entirely native on all platforms, but the one thing that Electron seems to have done in order to make cross platform easy is giving up on fitting in with all the quirks of the native platform anyways – so, that’s a moot point.

                            Your claim, I suppose, /is/ tautologically true – without electron, there would be no cross platform electron based apps. However, when the clock was rolled back to before electron existed and look at history, there were plenty of people writing enough native apps for many platforms. Electron, historically, was not necessary for that.

                            It does let web developers develop web applications that launch like native apps, and access the file system outside of the browser, without learning new skills. For quickly getting a program out the door, that’s a benefit.

                            1. 1

                              No one is saying there was a “shortage” of desktop applications; I’m not sure how one could even ascribe that belief to someone else without thinking they were completely off their rocker. No one is even claiming that without Electron none of these apps would exist (read my comment carefully). My claim is also not the weird tautology you propose, and again I’m not sure why you would ascribe it to someone else if you didn’t think they were insane or dumb. This is a tactic even worse than straw manning, so I’m really not sure you why you are so eager to double down on this.

                              Maybe abstracting this will help you understand. Suppose we live in a world where method A doesn’t exist. One day method A does exist, and although it has lots of problems, some people use method A to achieve things B that are useful to other people, and they publicly state that they deliberately chose method A over older methods.

                              Now. Assuming other people are rational and that they are not lying [1], we can conclude that method A helped people achieve things B in the sense that it would have been more difficult had method A not existed. Otherwise these people are not being rational, for they chose a more difficult method for no reason, or they are lying, and they chose method A for some secret reason.

                              This much is simple logic. I really am not interested in discussing this if you are going to argue about that, because seriously I already suspect you are being argumentative and posturing for no rational reason.

                              So, if method A made it easier for these people to achieve things B, then, all else equal, given that people can perform a finite amount of work, again assuming they are rational, we can conclude that unless the difference in effort really was below the threshold where it would cause any group of people to have decided to do something else [2], if method A had not existed, then some of the things B would not exist.

                              This is again seriously simple logic.

                              I get it that it’s cool to say that modern web development is bloated. For the tenth time, I agree that Electron apps are bloated. As I’ve stated, I don’t even like Slack, although it’s ridiculous that I have to say that. But don’t try to pass off posturing as actual argument.

                              [1]: If you don’t want to assume that at least some of the people who made popular Electron apps are acting intelligently in their own best interests, you really need to take a long hard look at yourself. I enjoy making fun of fashion-driven development too, but to take it to such an extreme would be frankly disturbing.

                              [2]: If you think the delta is really so small, then why did the people who created these Electron apps not do so before Electron existed? Perhaps the world changed significantly in the meantime, and there was no need for these applications before, and some need coincidentally arrived precisely at the same time as Electron. If you had made this argument, I would be a lot more happy to discuss this. But you didn’t, and frankly, this is too coincidental to be a convincing explanation.

                              1. 2

                                then why did the people who created these Electron apps not do so before Electron existed?


                                Apps with equivalent functionality did exist. The “Electron-equivalent” apps were a time a dozen, but built on different technologies. People creating these kinds of applications clearly did exist. Electron apps did not exist before electron, for what I hope are obvious reasons.

                                And, if you’re trying to ask why web developers who were familiar with a web toolkit running inside a browser, and unfamiliar with desktop toolkits didn’t start writing things that looked like desktop applications until they could write them inside a web browser… It’s easier to do something when you don’t have to learn new things.

                                There is one other thing that Electron did that makes it easier to develop cross platform apps, though. It dropped the idea of adhering fully to native look and feel. Subtle things like, for example, the way that inspector panels on OSX follow your selection, while properties dialogs on Windows do not – getting all that right takes effort.

                                At this point, I don’t really see a point in continuing, since you seem to consistently be misunderstanding and aor misinterpreting everything that’s been said in this entire thread, in replies to both me and others. I’m not particularly interested in talking to someone who is more interested in accusing me of posturing than in discussing.

                                Thank you for your time.

                                1. -1

                                  I am perplexed how you claim to be the misunderstood one when I have literally been clarifying and re-clarifying my original comment only to see you shift the goalposts closer and closer to what I’ve been saying all along. Did you even read my last comment? Your entire comment is literally elaborating on one of my points, and your disagreement is literally what I spent my entire comment discussing.

                                  I’m glad you thanked me for my time, because then at least one of us gained something from this conversation. I honestly don’t know what your motives could be.

                            2. 0

                              I find it strange that you somehow read

                              I don’t really remember having a problem finding desktop applications before Electron

                              as implying that you’d said

                              no desktop apps existed before Electron

                              @orib was simply saying that there was no shortage of desktop apps before Electron. That’s much different.

                              …That’s absurd… Obviously we can’t turn back the clock and rewrite history… …Be reasonable (and more importantly, civil.)

                              You should take your own advice. @orib’s comment read as completely anodyne to me.

                              1. 0

                                I find it strange that you’re leaving out parts of my comment, again. Not sure why you had to derail this thread.

                                1. 0

                                  You seem to be confusing me with somebody else.

                                  1. 0

                                    Please, please stop continuing to derail this conversation. I am now replying to your contentless post which itself was a continuation of your other contentless post which was a reply to my reply to orib’s post, which at least had some claims that could be true and could be argued against.

                                    I’m not sure what your intentions are here, but it’s very clear to me now that you’re not arguing from a position of good faith. I regret having engaged with you and having thus lowered the level of discourse.

                                    1. 1

                                      Please, please stop continuing to derail this conversation… I regret having engaged with you and having thus lowered the level of discourse.

                                      Yeah, I wouldn’t want to derail this very important conversation in which @jyc saves the Electron ecosystem with his next-level discourse.

                                      My intention was to call you out for being rude and uncivil and the words you’ve written since then only bolster my case.

                                      1. 0

                                        What is even your motive? Your latest comment really shows you think this whole thing is some sort of sophistic parlor game. I have spent too much time trying to point out that there may even exist some contribution from a technology I don’t even like. I honestly hope you find something better to do with your time than start bad faith arguments with internet strangers for fun.

                          3. 8

                            I’m not sure sure that it’s necessarily true that the existence of these apps is necessarily better than the alternative. For a technical audience, sure. I can choose to, grudgingly, use some bloated application that I know is going to affect my performance, and I’m technical enough to know the tradeoffs and how to mitigate the costs (close all electron apps when I’m running on battery, or doing something that will benefit from more available memory). The problem is for a non-technical audience who doesn’t understand these costs, or how to manage their resources, the net result is a degraded computing experience- and it affects the entire computing ecosystem. Resource hog applications are essentially replaying the tragedy of the commons on every single device they are running on, and even as the year-over-year gains in performance are slowing the underlying problem seems to be getting worse.

                            And when I say “we” should do better, I’m acknowledging that the onus to fix this mess is going to be in large part on those of us who have started to realize there’s a problem. I’m not sure we’ll succeed as javascript continues to eat the world, but I’ll take at least partial ownership over the lack of any viable contenders from the native application world.

                            1. 2

                              I’m not sure sure that it’s necessarily true that the existence of these apps is necessarily better than the alternative.

                              I think this and your references to a “tragedy of the commons” and degrading computing experiences are overblowing the situation a bit. You may not like Slack or VS Code or any Electron app at all, but clearly many non-technical and technical people do like these apps and find them very useful.

                              I agree 100% that developers should be more cautious about using user’s resources. But statements like the above seem to me to be much more like posturing than productive criticism.

                              Electron apps are making people’s lives strictly worse by using up their RAM—seriously? I don’t like Electron hogging my RAM as much as you, but to argue that it has actually made people’s lives worse than if it didn’t exist is overdramatic. (If you have separate concerns about always-on chat apps, I probably share many of them, but that’s a separate discussion).

                              1. 5

                                but clearly many non-technical and technical people do like these apps and find them very useful.

                                If you heard the number of CS folks I’ve heard complain about Slack clients destroying their productivity on their computers by lagging and breaking things, you’d probably view this differently.

                                1. 2

                                  If you also heard the number of CS folks I’ve heard suggest you buy a better laptop and throwing you a metaphorical nickel after you complain about Slack, you’d probably view it as futile to complain about sluggish Web apps again.

                                  1. 1

                                    Dude, seriously, the posturing is not cool or funny at this point. I myself complain about Slack being bloated, and IIRC I even complained about this in my other post. Every group I’ve been that has used Slack I’ve also heard complaints about it from both technical and non-technical people.

                                    I’ll leave it as an exercise for you to consider how this is not at all a contradiction with what you quoted. My God, the only thing I am more annoyed by at this point than Electron hipsterism is the anti-Electron hipsterism.

                                    1. 3

                                      Not posturing–this is a legitimate problem.

                                      Dismissing the very real pain points of people using software that they’re forced into using because Slack is killing alternatives is really obnoxious.

                                      People aren’t complaining just to be hipsters.

                                      1. -1

                                        Dude, at this point I suspect you and others in this thread are trying to imagine me as some personification of Electron/Slack so that you can vent all your unrelated complaints about them to me. For the last time, I don’t even like Electron and Slack that much. What is obnoxious is the fact that you are just ignoring the content of my comments and using them as a springboard for your complaints about Slack which I literally share.

                                        You seriously call this account @friendlysock?

                                        Your latest comment doesn’t add anything at all. Many users, perhaps even a majority of users, find Slack and other Electron software useful. I don’t and you don’t. I don’t like Slack’s business practices and you don’t either. Seriously, read the damn text of my comment and think about how you are barking up the entirely wrong tree.

                              2. 4

                                “and without Electron we would simply not have many of the Electron-powered cross-platform apps that are popular and used by many today. “

                                What that’s actually saying is that people who envision and build cross-platform apps for their own satisfaction, fame, or fortune would stop doing that if Electron didnt exist. I think the evidence we have is they’d build one or more of a non-portable app (maybe your claim), cross-platform app natively, or a web app. That’s what most were doing before Electron when they had the motivations above. Usually web, too, instead of non-portable.

                                We didnt need Electron for these apps. Quite a few would even be portable either immediately or later with more use/funds. The developers just wanted to use it for whatever reasons which might vary considerably among them. Clearly, it’s something many from a web background find approachable, though. That’s plus development time savings is my theory.

                                1. 1

                                  I agree that many people might have ended up building desktop apps instead that could have been made even better over time. I also agree with your theory about why writing Electron apps is popular. Finally, I agree that Electron is not “needed”.

                                  I’m going to preemptively request that we keep “hur dur, JavaScript developers, rational?” comments out of this—let’s be adults: assuming the developers of these apps are rational, clearly they thought Electron was the best choice for them. Anyone “sufficiently motivated” would be willing to write apps in assembler; that doesn’t mean we should be lamenting the existence of bloated compilers.

                                  Is saying developers should think about writing apps to use less resources productive? Yes. Is saying Electron tends to create bloated apps productive? Definitely. Is saying Electron makes the world a strictly worse place productive or even rational? Not at all.

                                  1. 3

                                    “I’m going to preemptively request that we keep “hur dur, JavaScript developers, rational?” comments out of this—let’s be adults”

                                    Maybe that was meant for a different commenter. I haven’t done any JS bashing in this thread that I’m aware of. I even said Electron is good for them due to familiarity.

                                    “ Is saying Electron makes the world a strictly worse place productive or even rational? Not at all.”

                                    Maybe that claim was also meant for a different commenter. I’d not argue it at all since those using Electron built some good software with it.

                                    I’ve strictly countered false positives in favor of Electron in this thread rather than saying it’s all bad. Others are countering false negatives about it. Filtering the wheat from the chaff gets us down to the real arguments for or against it. I identified one, familiarity, in another comment. Two others brought up some tooling benefits such as easier support for a web UI and performance profiling. These are things one can make an objective comparison with.

                              3. 4

                                forget that a user want’s to do things other than constantly interact with that one single application for their entire computing existence.

                                Quoted for truth.

                                Always assume that your software is sitting between your user and what they actually want to do. Write interactions accordingly.

                                We don’t pay for software because we like doing the things it does, we pay so we don’t have to keep doing those things.

                                1. 3

                                  perhaps because of the licensing model

                                  I also think so. It’s fine for open source applications, but the licensing situation for proprietary applications is tricky. Everyone who says you can use Qt under LGPL and just have to dynamically link to Qt, also says “but I’m not a lawyer so please consult one”. As a solo developer working on building something that may or may not sell at some point, it’s not an ideal situation to be in.

                                  1. 4

                                    I think the big caveat to this is that for a great many of the applications I see that have electron-based desktop apps, they are frontends for SAAS applications. They could make money off a GPL application just as easily as a proprietary one, especially since a lot of these services publish most of the APIs anyway.

                                    Granted, I’d love to see a world where software moved away from unnecessary rent-seeking and back to actually selling deliverable applications, but as long as we’re in a SAAS-first world the decision to release a decent GPL-ed frontend doesn’t seem like it should be that hard.

                                    1. 4

                                      I have been responsible for third party IP at a company that did exactly that with Qt; it’s fine.

                                    2. 3

                                      The situation is more nuanced than that. Because Electron provides developers with a better workflow and a lower barrier to entry that results in applications and features that simply wouldn’t exist otherwise. The apps built with Electron might not be as nice as native ones, but they often solve real problems as indicated by the vast amount of people using them. This is especially important if you’re running Linux where apps like Slack likely wouldn’t even exist in the first place, and then you’d be stuck having to try running them via Wine hoping for the best.

                                      While Qt is probably one of the better alternatives, it breaks down if you need to have a web UI. I’d also argue that the workflow you get with Electron is far superior.

                                      I really don’t see any viable alternatives to Electron at the moment, and it’s like here to stay for the foreseeable future. It would be far more productive to focus on how Electron could be improved in terms of performance and resource usage than to keep complaining about it.

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                                        I never claimed that it doesn’t make life easier for some developers, or even that every electron app would have been written with some other cross-platform toolkit. Clearly for anyone who uses Javascript as their primary (or, in many cases, only) language, and works with web technology day in and day out, something like electron is going to be the nearest to hand and the fastest thing for them to get started with.

                                        The problem I see is that what’s near to hand for developers, and good for the individual applications, ends up polluting the ecosystem by proliferating grossly, irresponsibly inefficient applications. The problem of inefficiency and the subsequent negative affect it has on the entire computing ecosystem is compounded by the fact that most users aren’t savvy enough to understand the implications of the developers technology choices, or even capable of looking at the impact that a given application is having on their system. Additionally, software as an industry is woefully prone to adopting local maxima solutions- even if something better did come along, we’re starting to hit an inflection point of critical mass where electron will continue to gain popularity. Competitors might stand a chance if developers seemed to value efficiency, and respect the resources of their users devices, but if they did we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place.

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                                          Saying that developers use Electron simply because don’t value efficiency is absurd. Developers only have so much time in a day. Maintaining the kinds of applications built with Electron using alternatives is simply beyond the resources available to most development teams.

                                          Again, as I already pointed out, the way to address the problem is to look for ways to improve Electron as opposed to complaining that it exists in the first place. If Electron runtime improves, all the applications built on top of it automatically get better. It’s really easy to complain that something is bloated and inefficient, it’s a lot harder to do something productive about it.

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                                        but I shouldn’t have to be killing slack and zoom every time I unplug my laptop

                                        Yes, you shouldn’t. But that is not Electron’s fault.

                                        I’ve worked on pgManage, and even though ii is based on Electron for the front-end, we managed to get it work just fine and use very little CPU/Memory*. Granted, that’s not a chat application, but I also run Riot.im all day everyday and it show 0% CPU and 114M of memory (about twice as much as pgManage).

                                        Slack is the worst offender that I know of, but it’s because the people who developed it were obviously used to “memory safe” programming. We had memory issues in the beginning with the GC not knowing what to do when we were doing perfectly reason able things. But we put the effort in and made it better.

                                        We have a strong background in fast C programs, and we applied that knowledge to the JS portion of pgManage and cut down the idle memory usage to 58M. For this reason, I’m convinced that C must never die.

                                        * https://github.com/pgManage/pgManage/blob/master/Facts_About_Electron_Performance.md (Note: the version numbers referred to in this article are for Postage, which was later re-branded pgManage)

                                        *Edit for spelling*

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                                          “But that is not Electron’s fault.”

                                          It happens by default with a lot of Electron apps. It doesnt so much with native ones. That might mean it’s a side effect of Electron’s design. Of course, Id like to see more data on different use-cases in case it happens dor some things but not others. In your case, did you have to really work hard at keeping the memory down?

                                          Edit: The Github link has some good info. Thanks.

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                                            It happens by default with a lot of Electron apps.

                                            I see where your coming from, and you’re right, but if more JS devs had C experience (or any other non-memory-managed language), we would all be better for it. The GC spoils, and it doesn’t always work.

                                            It doesnt so much with native ones.

                                            Yes, but I think that greatly depends on the language, and how good the GC is.

                                            That might mean it’s a side effect of Electron’s design.

                                            Maybe, but if pgManage can do it (a small project with 5 people working on it), than I see absolutely no reason why Slack would have any difficulty doing it.

                                            In your case, did you have to really work hard at keeping the memory down?

                                            Yes and no. Yes it took time (a few days at most), but no because Electron, and Chrome, have great profiling tools and we were able to find most issues fairly quickly (think Valgrind). IIRC the biggest problem we had at the time was that event listeners weren’t being removed before an element was destroyed (or something like that).

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                                              One thing I’ll note, look at the ipc ratio of electron apps versus other native apps. You’ll notice a lot of tlb misses and other such problems meaning that the electron apps are mostly sitting there forcing the cpu to behave in ways it really isn’t good at optimizing.

                                              In the end, the electron apps just end up using a lot of power spinning the cpu around compared to the rest. This is technically also true of web browsers.

                                              You may use perf on linux or tiptop to read the cpu counters (for general ipc eyeballing i’d use tiptop): http://tiptop.gforge.inria.fr

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                                        Added energy pickups to my game, some new sound effects using bxfr.net next step to replace all placeholder graphics with images i can actually use in a release

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                                          side project - continuing work on living ship game for my kid. Got some elements dropping from asteroids, and working on cleaning up early mistakes as i sketched it out to be able to develop new features a bit faster. next milestone working on is drawing samples from different planets - he really wants to be able to do that

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                                            working on a game for my kid, starts with a giant space chicken laying you and goes from there. right now, can fly around space breaking up asteroids, and land on planets and play in a sandbox with some different shuttles

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                                              thanks. i guess noise cancelling isn’t a must - i was working on the assumption that would be the feature that would really cut the noise around when people start having loud convos - but it sounds like people have some success with large over the ears, so i’ll look at those too

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                                                In my experience (with Bose QuietComfort) the noise cancelling works by far the best on the white-noise/static kind of noises. Which is why it’s so good on airplanes, it really cuts out the jets and the … err, wind, I guess, or whatever the components of the roaring noise are. For unpredictable and dynamic sounds, it’s really not so effective, they just cut through. I think good isolation is more important in an office environment.