1. 1

    Is this a transpiler ?

    1. 1

      Looks like it just produces Python source code. I’m not sure why it couldn’t compile to Python AST like Hy does.

    1. 2

      The really long term possibility is that after a thorough cleanup of the internet, all the content that is digitised might be locked into the encrypted codec thereby making it unusable by free culture not even for fair use. This is a problem because CDs, DVDs, Blu-Rays are essentially dead or soon to be dead mediums. DRM is fundamentally different from CDs which you can share and manipulate for fun.

      It is legally possible to create cultural artefacts without DRM and with a creative commons license. Is the browser somehow going to make this impossible ? As far as I understand, no. I think every artist living is aware of this. If the artists want to contribute to free culture, all doors are open and most of the tools are free. I think it should be better to bootstrap free culture completely than to rely on old culture. The only thing fair seems to be is to ask corporations to release content into the public domain more often.

        1. 1

          This probably a stupid question but what can you do with a leaked CSRF token ? Isn’t it generated freshly every time a form is rendered ?

        1. 7

          From what I could gather

          • Key Exchange is difficult
          • Can’t Generate random keys for every interaction
          • Key maintenance is difficult

          I agree.

          1. 4
          1. 2

            Can anyone give good examples of measurable outcomes ?

            1. 3

              In my experience, measuring the dev process as currently is popular in growing orgs is just a tool for managers to feel like they have control over a process that is hard to measure and has a high error margin to begin with. I always am promised that they won’t use the measures outside of the team but they always insist on comparing velocities across teams, normalizing story points in “ideal work days”. I’ve never seen it pulled off correctly. I can’t give you one example for ten years of practice.

            1. 1

              Is a Mechanic paid to fix the car / bike ?
              Is an Architect paid to design the building ?
              Is a Chief Engineer paid to oversee the construction of a bridge ?
              Is an Engineer paid to design and build a part ?
              Is a Research Scientist paid to design and experiment with prototypes ?
              Is a Worker paid to move stuff, skillfully ?
              Is an Interior Designer paid to redecorate the kitchen ?

              1. 2

                These are end results, but how you get there and how you charge for getting there are different for different careers.

                I’ll be honest, I don’t think your questions add value and miss the point entirely. Software Development is not like fixing a car, or designing a building, or constructing a bridge, or moving stuff, or redecorating. I can some similarities in design/building a part or experimentation.

                Any which way, if you believe these comparisons valid I would like to see more of your reasoning rather than lobbing a bunch of questions that seem to be leading in some way and expecting the answers and insights to be self-evident

              1. 2

                Inheritance: Fast Food.
                Composition: A french buffet with strange names.

                1. 2

                  Same should apply for Crystal and Go. Binaries are underrated.

                  1. 2

                    Why the fuck do you need block chain for everything ?
                    1. Everyone should register their Public Key with a central server.
                    2. Everyone can vote with Candidates Public Key and sign with their Private key.
                    3. A vote is a bloody byte at best. The costs of the server are trivial at best.
                    4. Let them fucking vote at their leisures time after reading the manifesto or something.
                    5. Once the vote is done open up the damn data to let everyone verify the final counts with their signatures.

                    1. 4

                      I agree with what I take to be your overall point - blockchains solve a very specific category of problem, and it’s frustrating how many people talk about applying them to things where they add enormous overhead for no benefit. I think, in particular, people think they’re magic anonymity sauce, although they don’t actually provide anonymity at all.

                      I do think that the non-tampering properties offered by blockchains are worth thinking about here, but @zeebo’s suggested properties elsewhere in the thread make even more sense to me, and I don’t see that a blockchain would be useful for those.

                      1. 2

                        This is more-or-less how it’s done in Estonia, except:

                        1. Your private key is stored on your ID card.
                        2. You don’t use a candidate’s public key; there’s a list of candidates and you just encrypt the candidate selection to the government then sign it.


                        1. You can verify your vote at any time, from a range of devices, to ensure tampering hasn’t occurred.
                        2. You can update your vote at any time: the latest vote is used. Deduplication is done by signature.
                        3. Signatures are separated from the encrypted contents before decryption occurs.
                        4. Source code for the server component is online.
                        1. 1

                          Seems like a Paradise.

                          1. 1

                            Haha, not particularly. But at least online voting works.

                            1. 1

                              It works because you can be quite sure that your goverment doesn’t make your life miserable if you vote wrong. I wouldn’t say Estonias system would work nicely in Russia for example :)

                              1. 1

                                Absolutely right, indeed.

                      1. -8

                        Karma is a retarded system of online Communication. It’s like everyone is just fucking poking each other with forks. NO REAL CONVERSATIONS HAPPEN THAT WAY. What exactly are you going to evolve other than crabs and prawns ?

                        1. 4

                          And this is where the downvote button comes in handy.

                        1. 3

                          After reading this book, I simply had to throw everything I read about OOP, Domain Driven Design, Functional Programming into the garbage. It’s a breath of fresh air to actually look at everything as Data Transformations. I have pushed code with this stuff into Production and code is sane even for a mill users and with just 30k loc. Forget all you know about Code Reuse, Data Transforms are the real deal !

                          1. 1

                            I first came across hintjens while I was trying to understand the basis of few really fucked up liars I had to come across in life. His book one of few resources that offered me a perspective on how to look at these fucked up liars and soul destroyers. People confuse trolling which is more of an anti social behavior with these people, it’s different, very much so.

                            I’ve tried to summarise his lessons here here. I think his body of work is amazing and he is a heroic hacker.

                            If you stop executing Pieters’ Code, the ghosts in the machines might just sing back to its Necromancer. I suppose the code of a Great Programmer follows the Tao. It is everywhere but it is silent.

                            1. 27

                              HN did too good of a job with associating “hacker” with “VC sycophant” for me to identify w/ that term

                              1. 7

                                These days, “kernel hacker” is about the only variant I can stand.

                                1. 5

                                  Amen to this. I will also accept “Lisp hacker”.

                                  Everyone else is a posing douche.

                                  1. 2

                                    Hacky sack hacker?

                                  2. 2

                                    My sincere question is why not X Y Hacker ? Where X can stand for skill and Y for domain of expertise ?

                                    We can’t use the word Engineer in an absolute absolute sense because code can handle such a thing as currency now. Currency is not an Engineering Feat. Code can lie to a pollution test i.e, … again unheard of in Engineering …

                                    If not a “Hacker” then are we willing to be relegated to being a profession of technicians ?

                                    1. 1

                                      If not a “Hacker” then are we willing to be relegated to being a profession of technicians ?

                                      I think some people (devs included) would love this: the equivalent of picking parts up from Ikea and claiming you built a couch.

                                      Perhaps that’s why people get so excited to compare notes about their ‘stack.’

                                      1. 1

                                        I love it too ! But there’s 20 million of us or something like that.

                                        Stack Hackers is an acceptable term right ?

                                        Some one who builds a distribution of wordpress plugins or docker can happily apply that label to himself proudly.

                                        I know a Business guy who really likes shopping for these things and assembling them. He recently messed with the Ghost Platform and is so good at it that he will probably sell it as a solution.

                                  3. 6

                                    “rock star ninja”

                                    1. 1

                                      Has there ever been a rock star trained in ninjitsu? Just curious.

                                      1. 4

                                        Maynard James Keenan, Tool.

                                        1. 4

                                          Not sure about ninjitsu but I heard a Spotify interview with Matt Heafy where he said he was heavily into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu :-)

                                      2. 1

                                        I’ve got 8,000+ points going against that and most other sycophant things on Hacker News. So, not totally accurate. I’m not sure what the average person has in karma going against the tide for just a year. I just feel that says the community is not the total circle-jerk it’s made out to be. Or there’s just circle-jerkers plus people kicking in their motel doors with cameras going, “Whoa! I thought this was a hackerspace! My bad! We’re making a quick counterpoint to what we’re seeing and then leaving…” Mwahahaha.

                                        1. 2

                                          (Shhh, Lobste.rs is an anti-HN circlejerk <.<)

                                          1. 1

                                            Haha i know their bias. As with HN, I simply ignored it to go straight to evidence-based counterpoint no matter the cost. :)

                                      1. 4

                                        I’ve some alternatives to consider, folks…

                                        • “brooding screen light interfacer”
                                        • “bit flipper”
                                        • “formal system anomaly enthusiast”
                                        1. 1

                                          bit detective.

                                          1. 1

                                            bug buster

                                          1. 10

                                            This is a bad idea. To the world at large, hacker == criminal, and the world is much much larger than tech. There’s a lovely history and spirit to the world, but teenagers poisoned it in the 80s and we’ll never get it back. It’s been gone for twenty years, move on.

                                            1. 6

                                              I hate to mention this, but the 80s were thirty years ago. :)

                                              Anyway, completely agreed.

                                              1. 3

                                                Yeah, sorry to be unclear - I saw it as poisoned in the 80s by The Youths, but it wasn’t until the late 90s that it took hold in the popular consciousness.

                                                1. 1

                                                  Fair enough :)

                                              2. 5

                                                If we don’t define ourselves, someone else will. That is pretty much the issue I wish to address. The media has done a good job at it, clearly.

                                                It’s been gone for twenty years, move on.

                                                I have a rather bad tendency of just writing the conclusions. Here are my various ad-hoc reasoning to justify, why Hacker makes more sense.

                                                Here is what “move on” basically entails in the future,

                                                1. The word Hacker will never be used in the sense of a Hero
                                                2. The future Programmers will be educated in Institutions which will rarely mention works of Hackers.
                                                3. Business people will happily balkanise the profession with even more retarded words like Master Code Wrangler, VR Samurai …
                                                4. The word Hacker will forever be looked upon as a criminal activity.
                                                5. History will relegate the word to dusty books, akin to how an ancient tribe spoke Sumerian but was Romanised by Romans.

                                                When I tried to pick that word and used it as an adjective, I did so with the full intent of addressing the facts like

                                                1. Programming Computers is a synthetic in nature. It can combine with anything.
                                                2. It is a young vocational profession just about 60 years old..
                                                3. Being the 6th generation programmer, I want the 200th generation to use that word.

                                                Any Developer who ousts an organisation for doing dirty and pathetic stuff, you know like faking or hard coding data, will be called a Hacker as a convenient scapegoat. The word Programmer is obviously more technical but it doesn’t carry the moral implications like that of a Doctor or a Lawyer. Hacker as a word has it.

                                                Pardon me for using Pathos, but when someone of like Richard Stallman dies if he is called a “Brilliant Programmer” won’t you feel a pinch on your heart ?

                                                1. 6

                                                  I’ll upvote you for explaining your reasoning further, but I do disagree with you.

                                                  “Hacker” is a term that has, through opportunistic marketing and hiring practices, been reduced to basically nothing. I don’t think people even associate it with the Hacker security bugaboo anymore simple because of overuse.

                                                  Moreover, “hacking” is a fundamentally playful and subversive activity. It is dangerous, and though it can be put to good use fundamentally the same practices and techniques have teeth. Motions like yours to gentrify and make palatable such a phrase so that people with neither skill nor mischief in their minds can feel good about themselves annoy me.

                                                  A “music hacker” is probably neither a skilled musician nor a talented engineer. A “gene hacker” is just some schmuck who probably thinks they’re a “citizen scientist” while diddling with their local makerspace’s clapped-out Craigslist centrifuge and PCR machine. A “typography hacker” is just some artsy person who wants to feel good about commenting on the BSD project’s continued use of Comic Sans. A “growth hacker” is just a borderline unethical marketing person.

                                                  Let’s stop using this title for people that just want to feel good in spite of their lack of achievement or skill.

                                                  1. 2

                                                    We can add prefixes for skill levels too.

                                                    For example, I am a Beginner Music Hacker. I have made music with hardware and the guitar, now I am obsessing over mixing code with my setup. Maybe have have a bot as a third band mate. I am an Intermediate programmer.

                                                    I don’t know much about lawyers but my guess is people can be called Junior or Senior Lawyers depending on their skill level.

                                                    What other term is there, the can commensurate enough respect ? Jedi Programmer ?

                                                    1. 3

                                                      So, you’re a musician. Why exactly is it necessary to shoehorn the word “hacker” in there? I would die of embarrassment if I got on stage to perform and I was introduced as an “Advanced Music Hacker”

                                                      Jedi Programmer

                                                      Is this trolling?

                                                      1. 2

                                                        I wouldn’t mind being called Advanced Music Hacker in front of kids. I speak from the excitement of Sonic Pi and the ilk.

                                                        That was meant as a biting-remark. I want to understand where are we heading with words like rock star and ninja.

                                                        Let me try to give a hypothetical conversation as an example,

                                                        Hey Joe, What shall we call the Expert Nerd ?
                                                        Jedi Programmer.
                                                        What does the Jedi Night Warrior do ?
                                                        Weaves magic, with samurai keyboard.
                                                        Is s/he still in the office ? Yes

                                                        Hey Samurai Jedi Night Warrior, have you been up all night coding.
                                                        It’s almost done.

                                                        In voices slightly raised, you are awesome Jedi Night warrior ??
                                                        Stares blindly into the screen.

                                                  2. 5

                                                    The English word thief comes from the Old English word þēof, which comes from the Old Germanic *tewpó-, probably from the perfectly respectable Lithuanian word tupeti, meaning ‎“to crouch, cower, squat”.

                                                    This might not seem like anything special, but it’s a fine word that would be totally useful for organizing all these different fields like Yoga, Pilates, and Yogalates. We could have one glorious term to unite all these disparate fields: Yoga Thieves, Pilates Thieves, Yogalates Thieves, and so on! All these professions should simply call themselves thieves. If they don’t self-define as thieves, someone else will define them.

                                                    Why, if we give up on the word thieves, it might never again be used in the sense of someone who crouches. Unscrupulous business people will balkanize the fields with words like “trainer”, “personal coach”, or “guru”. The word thief will forever be looked upon as a criminal activity!

                                                    Or we could accept that the term is emphatically defined and move on.

                                                  3. 1

                                                    Operation Sundevil

                                                  1. 4

                                                    This really shines light on every thing brave and wrong with the Software World. A true fearless Hacker.

                                                    1. 2

                                                      I think Erlang is represents a healthy mixture of both.

                                                      1. 13

                                                        I agree with almost everything the OP has said.

                                                        Where there is confusion is around the case that this is a “quiet crisis”. I used to think that software managers didn’t know that open-plan offices and ageism produced a low quality of result. The older I get, the more I’m aware that they do know. They just don’t care.

                                                        Business has this anti-intellectual culture and the flip side of that is that not knowing how this technical “voodoo” works is a point of pride, because only the low-status peons actually know that “mechanical” stuff. This also makes it really easy to blame “tech” when things go wrong. Executives are expected to be on top of things like the latest corporate logo redesign or the press coverage they’re getting, but technical excellence isn’t valued and technical failure can always be blamed on the programmers– even if it’s a software company– with no consequences for the individual executive. Thus, conditions for programmers will deteriorate. Sticking the programmers in an open-plan cattle pen saves money on paper (that’s a bonus for some cost-cutting shithead who doesn’t actually do anything). When the programmers all become less productive, the blame can be thrown on them as individuals.

                                                        The OP is the rare software manager who actually cares more about doing his job than promoting himself and climbing the ranks. Very few do.

                                                        Is this a “quiet crisis”? I don’t know. I mean, technical excellence isn’t rewarded in the corporate world, and companies are still profitable. I might personally think it sucks that there’s so much tolerance of imprecision-of-thought and half-assed work, but we’re not actually seeing these executives bear the consequences of their decisions, so I’m increasingly convinced that everything we fight for, as principled technologists, actually doesn’t matter to the global economy.

                                                        1. 6

                                                          “Doesn’t matter to corporations” is very different from “doesn’t matter to the global economy”. Robin Hanson, who is a professor of economics at GMU, has uncovered numerous ways in which people behave, to put it bluntly, irrationally and hypocritically, and some of these relate to the corporate world in particular. For example, Hanson claims (I believe correctly) that if corporations really wanted to hear an unbiased view of how likely a project was to come in on time and on budget, they’d get feedback from the people who actually have insight into this, i.e. the front-line employees - in our case, software engineers. Hanson believes that internal prediction markets are a good way of obtaining accurate feedback - I’m afraid (I know you disagree with me here) I prefer Scrum - but regardless of what you think about that, the general principle is sound. But getting accurate feedback from front-line employees is a relatively uncommon activity in the corporate world. Why is this? Well, we can conclude one of two things: either corporations by and large do not want to hear accurate estimates, they instead want to hear political estimates manufactured by managers and executives (and in some cases individual engineers) to make them sound good. Or, alternatively, there are a large number of middle managers and executives who genuinely believe that a military-style command-and-control hierarchy is the best way to obtain accurate estimates. I’m not sure which possibility is worse.

                                                          But neither of these possibilities imply that this local “political” optimum is necessarily economically optimal, either for the corporation itself or for the economy as a whole. Traditional corporate organisation is something humans fell into - it was copied from the military, and we shouldn’t expect that it will continue to be seen as the most effective organisational form forever.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            You’re correct. Also “corporations” don’t have discernible wills. People within corporations do. Executives don’t actually care if projects succeed or fail– only how it will affect them. They’d rather have a major failure that they can blame on a rival than a success that puts them at risk later on.

                                                          2. 3

                                                            What are the options for the peon ?

                                                            1. Go join another corporate
                                                            2. Work at a younger corporate
                                                            3. Become an executive
                                                            4. Join other peons and start a peon collective and wait till the peon leader sells out in the end to become another executive.
                                                            5. Join peon anonymous
                                                            6. Quit / Die

                                                            Some want to work within the system.
                                                            Some outside of it.
                                                            The input of the System is your soul. The output is profit.

                                                            Monsters exist because we lack the discipline to defeat them. That’s the first assumption made by the monster.

                                                            1. 2

                                                              I think we can start by not thinking of ourselves as peons, and to demand that our employers treat us as trusted professionals. Organizing around our interests can help us at denying talent to employers who refuse to do so, and we can make this a global effort.

                                                              So #4 seems like the strongest suggestion. And sure, a “peon leader” is a SPOF. That’s why there needs to be at least the threat of competition. If one programmer collective turns corrupt, then another should replace it.

                                                              The best strategy that I can see is to create an exam system like what the actuarial sciences have, and build up a professional society from that.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                Fair enough. The best-case scenario I can see is for ACM / IEEE like organisations to do it.

                                                                The challenge I see is for selling that idea to the industry and a vast number of hippy-dippy-dropout programmers to actually write it.

                                                                Culturally I suppose the best we can do is to

                                                                1. Increase Awareness
                                                                2. Encourage corporates that do better things.

                                                                I have an idea, let’s build a website that reviews ….. oh wait that’s glassdoor.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  I think sites like glassdoor are the best hope/tool we have. I left my old job based on being bored of the grind and realising that after being there for 8 years without a significant pay rise i was now being under paid, when i asked around my own work I found out that even the new graduates straight out of uni were paid more. I had slipped through the cracks and was stuck in a rut, half my fault, half my boss’s. It took glassdoor or similar to prompt me initially.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            Email, Skype. Would love to talk about Music Software.

                                                            1. 5

                                                              “A Freudian psycho-sexual pleasure palace …” That’s painfully accurate.

                                                              PDF: https://d3gn0r3afghep.cloudfront.net/foia_files/Untangling_the_Web.pdf