1. 4

    This has nothing to do with computing.

    1. 1

      Is that the only thing the education tag is for? I mean, is Lobsters only for things that happen around computers?

      1. 4

        From https://lobste.rs/about

        Lobsters is a computing-focused community centered around link aggregation and discussion, launched on July 1st, 2012.

        So yes. The education tag is for articles about computing that have an education component.

      1. 5

        It’s not immediately clear if you skim the readme but this is written in rust! It pokes at the python interpreter by wrapping libpython with rust’s bindgen binding generator.

        1. 1

          Just makes me wonder how many people use mercurial at there company?

          Edit: from company I mean at work.

          1. 2

            Which company? Octobus? As per their website, there are only 2 people, and Pierre-Yves David (“marmoute”) is a well know core Mercurial contributor. The company itself is about providing commercial support for Mercurial, along with other stuff like Python contracting.

            1. 1

              I think mercurial definitely has a niche in a corporate space. It’s easier to train new people on than git, scales better for monorepo setups, is more easily extensivle via python, and allows richer customization.

              1. 2

                It’s easier to train new people on than git

                I am curious about this – while mercurial definitely has less initial surface area and a far more consistent way of interacting. It also tends to have lots of customizations that add a lot of complexity right back in – and mix and match them in ways that are often unique per mercurial setup.

                Git while far uglier, also has more training resources both professional and free. Additionally, while git is far less consistent in terms of interaction, to a far large degree once you know it – you know it. You are unlikely to go to a site where git has lots of customizations making it behave different than the “git” you used at your last organization.

                1. 2

                  Well you pretty much summed it up :) Mercurial is nicer/easier to use, but Git has more resources out there. I think at that point one being better than the other for a particular person or team will then depend less on the pros/cons of each tool, and more on the person/team’s mindset/culture/available support/etc.

                  I’d add that Git having more resources, while helpful, is as much a proof of its success as a symptom of one of its main problems. Having to look up help pages and other tutorial pages on a regular basis becomes tedious quickly, and they still need to fix the core problem (they can’t quite fix the broken CLI at this point, but I did note several helpful messages being added to the output in the last few versions, so there’s progress).

                  Finally, yeah Mercurial has a problem with the amount of customization they force on user because of their very strict backwards compatibility guarantees (resulting in a good portion of new features being turned off by default). This tends to be mitigated by the fact that teams will generally provide a central .hgrc that sets up good defaults for their codebase. Also, Mercurial extensions almost never change Mercurial’s behaviour (evolve is an outlier there but is still considered “experimental”) – they just add to it, so I’ve never come across (so far) any Mercurial resource that was potentially invalidated by an extension (feel free to point to counter-examples!).

                  1. 1

                    I suspect my issue might be more in my head (and my unique experience) than in reality. I have contracted with lots of git shops – and a fair number of mercurial ones. Most of the git shops worked very similarly, they differed in master dev versus feature branch dev, mono-repo or multi-repo – but they all felt similar and I could use very minor changes to my workflow to integrate with them, which is great for contracting.

                    Each mercurial shop has been a wild adventure in unique workflow, and brand new extensions I have never seen or used. One used TWO different sub-repo extensions, another one used THREE configuration extensions! On top of that, most of them had annoying/wonky authentication mechanisms (some hand-rolled). The reason I use those examples (which is only a fraction of what I have seen) is that are all basically non-optional. I needed to use them to be able to work on the project… and of course mq versus non-mq. Never used evolve (yet).

                    During the “will mercurial or git win?” – I was firmly on the mercurial side because I did work on Windows and git early on was non-function on it. But now when I hear a client is a mercurial shop, I dread it. But, I realize that is probably just my unique experience.

                    1. 2

                      Huh, well it’s very probable I’m just not aware of all the wild things people do out there with Mercurial. I frankly had no idea there were sub-repo extensions (outside of the core subrepo feature), and I don’t know why anybody would do custom authentication when SSH works everywhere (although I understand people might want to setup ActiveDirectory for Windows-only environments instead, but that’s it). What do you mean by “configuration extensions”? As for MQ, I don’t think it matters for the central repo, no? It should only matter for local workflows?

                      1. 2

                        According to https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/UsingExtensions – there are at least 6 sub-repo extensions. And, yes, ActiveDirectory logins, other SSO variations and then on top of those multiple ACL layers.

                        As for MQ – absolutely you can avoid it with others tools that can produce the same sort of history… rebase, graft, strip, etc. The issue being if all the “how we work” docs are written in MQ style – it is a bit of mental gymnastics to convert over.

                        1. 1

                          Ah I see. And yeah I never really scrolled down past the non-core extensions :) (The only non-core extensions I have are a couple I wrote myself…)

                          1. 1

                            are a couple I wrote myself…

                            you… you are part of the problem! runs scared hehe

                            1. 1

                              Haha but that’s fine, I don’t think anybody besides myself are using them :)

                  2. 2

                    Might it instead be the other way around: that customization-seeking companies are more likely to choose Mercurial? This could be either because adventurousness promotes both non-Git and customization, or because Mercurial has the better architecture when you need to customize. IIRC the latter is true for both Mozilla and Facebook. Anyway, at my second job we used vanilla Mercurial, and we did fine. It was basically the same as any Git workflow, for that matter.

                    1. 2

                      Absolutely. Additionally, Mercurial is just more accessible in terms of customization. On top of that more than a handful of these shops had heavy Python contingents internally.

                      1. 1

                        Haha, yes, knowing the language certainly makes it easier to stray off the common path and into the woods of in-shop customization :-D

              2. 1

                I use Mercurial at work. My company uses Git, but I use Mercurial and clone, push, and pull transparently thanks to hg-git. I’ve noticed I am generally more aware than my Git-using colleagues of recent changes to the repo, because I’ve got a pre-pull hook set up to run hg incoming (with a tweak to avoid double network talk).

              1. 3

                Besides the probable-bug-in-the-code angle, an interesting aspect of this to me is that the whole dispute takes place in pretty non-exotic material: water cooled to between -20 and -40 C (albeit very pure water). I guess it’s not surprising that there are plenty of unanswered questions in that kind of material too, I’m just more used to these popular writeups of physics disputes being about material that you find only in distant galaxies or supercolliders.

                1. 1

                  The trick is that it’s extremely pure water with no nucleation sites. That’s more of a theoretical thing. In all real water samples a little bit of bacteria or something causes the water to freeze before the interesting transition happens.

                  1. 1

                    Below the homogeneous nucleation temperature, it crystalizes almost instantly, even if it’s perfectly pure.

                1. 4

                  Why isn’t “security” sufficient?

                  1. 9

                    Because people post CVE’s that teach me little no nothing about security. They’re like the security version of product updates. People that use the tech have places to look for release notes and security alerts. Entire sites and blogs are dedicated to it. Here, it’s just noise drowning out deeper submissions.

                    1. 3

                      security talks about a general class of topics, whereas CVE would talk about a particular instance.

                      Same reason we have both programming and rust, or mathematics and visualization.

                      Personally I don’t think we should have them on the site at all, but we should do a community discussion first.

                    1. 11

                      You should add Paperkast to the list of sister sites.

                      1. 2

                        Done. Thank you very much for the suggestion.

                        1. 1

                          Maybe there should be some sort of standardized directory?…

                          1. 2

                            How is https://github.com/lobsters/lobsters/wiki not a standardized directory?

                            1. 4

                              I suppose it is, but it was not obvious to discover.

                              1. 1

                                I also wish I’d discovered it sooner. However, other than nesting it under the “Wiki” link at the bottom page, I don’t see a solution that wouldn’t start cluttering up the site with information most people won’t need.

                                1. 3

                                  It’s linked from the about page.

                            2. 1

                              Can you expand it a little bit?

                          1. 3

                            I upvoted it even though I fully remember the lessons that I’ve learned from alynpost, friendlysock, et al… Something like “just because I like it doesn’t mean that it is healthy for lobste.rs”.

                            We crustaceans are part of the intended audience of this content and it is not meant to be healthy for our communities, any more than the cessation of cobalt mining would be…

                            I don’t want to discuss it here. Egads, I like some of you, let’s not ruin that. ;)

                            To wit: I think we should all watch this an mull over it privately. Don’t downvote it away, please.

                            1. 4

                              I feel like the OP would have avoided the downvotes if they didn’t try to derail the comments with an off-topic appeal for a politics tag.

                            1. 0

                              Please don’t copy/paste content from the link for the title text. People can click through to see the abstract.

                              1. 2

                                Tech articles that are primarily about a news story are generally considered off-topic on lobsters. Try to share stories here that have deep technical content.

                                1. 3

                                  I think this also works: Pick longitude (0, pi). pick another angle (0, 2pi) for latitude and scale by sqrt(u) to avoid bunching at the poles. Pick radius (0,1) and scale by cube(u).

                                  1. 2

                                    What does the symbol u represent? And why doesn’t longitude run from 0 to 2π and latitude from 0 to π, instead of the other way around (as you have it)? The span of longitude should be bigger because it goes all the way around the sphere, while latitude just goes 1/2 of the way (from top to bottom).

                                    1. 2

                                      u is a randomly generated variable between zero and one. I think tedu mixed up longitude and latitude (he wouldn’t be the first one).

                                    2. 1

                                      Is this different from picking a random point in the spherical coordinate box and converting it to Cartesian ones?

                                      1. 3

                                        You can’t naively pick random spherical coordinators because they will clump together near the origin and around the poles.

                                    1. 9

                                      It’s a surprisingly common thing to get this wrong the first time. See also http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SpherePointPicking.html.

                                      1. 4

                                        Is this supposed to be designed for female programmers? If so what makes it specific to women?

                                        1. 12

                                          Nothing? But it’s made by an organization called “Django Girls”.

                                          1. 8

                                            About and contributing

                                            This tutorial is maintained by DjangoGirls.

                                            Following the link gets us this (emphasis mine):

                                            Django Girls is a non-profit organization and a community that empowers and helps women to organize free, one-day programming workshops by providing tools, resources and support. We are a volunteer run organization with hundreds of people contributing to bring more amazing women into the world of technology. We are making technology more approachable by creating resources designed with empathy.

                                            To me, it looks like they created high quality approachable documentation as material for their workshops, to further their goal of bringing women into tech. “Designed with empathy” probably means it avoids using exclusive language, anecdotes, analogies, and so on. So less “designed for female programmers” and more “doesn’t assume programmers are typically male.”

                                            Otherwise, nothing. I don’t reckon a bunch of women were about to write the “Django Bros Tutorial.”

                                            1. 11

                                              As others have said, the tutorial name just comes from the organisation.

                                              It’s notable in that it is tutorial meant for people with 0 knowledge and possible contact issues with computers.

                                              Also, FWIW, the “Girls” name for those organisations (coming from “Rails Girls” is widely regarded a mistake now. The chapter I help out with (Rails Girls Berlin) has recently renamed into “Code Curious”. Turns out that grown women don’t feel spoken to by “Girls”.

                                              1. 6

                                                Turns out that grown women don’t feel spoken to by “Girls”.

                                                This is a cultural thing, by which I mean there are women in the US, at least, who are older than I am (34) who wouldn’t be troubled by being called “girls” or would actively appreciate it as a sign of informality.

                                                1. 5

                                                  It’s not that people saw it insulting or something, we had a lot of people that just didn’t feel addressed at first contact! The amount of people we found passing on the project on first contact for the reason that they thought it was for people under 18 was notable.

                                                  Interestingly, the US version (and precursor) of Rails Girls is called RailsBridge for reasons of not typecasting.

                                                  It’s a thing to write books about :D. I’m quite interested how Code Curious turns out. RG is quite a successful brand, which is lost in the process.

                                            1. 1

                                              I’m always looking for a cross-compiling system for building macOS executables from Linux, either as a single static executable, or as a self-contained relocatable bundle of (interpreter + libraries + user code entrypoint), because getting legal Mac build workers is such a pain.

                                              The best toolkit I’ve found, by far, is golang Where you just GOOS=darwin go build .... There are a variety of more-or-less hacky solutions in the Javascript ecosystem, and a few projects for Python, but for Ruby this area is sorely lacking.

                                              I mention this because while XAR looks like an awesome way to distribute software bundles, I still need to figure out a way to do nice cross-compiles if I’m going to use it to realistically target both macOS and Linux.

                                              1. 3

                                                Tell me about it. I’ve tried cross compiling Rust from Linux to OSX and it was just a saga of hurt from start to finish.

                                                For Go, did you need to jump through the hoops of downloading an out-of-date Xcode image, extracting the appropriate files and compiling a cross-linker? Or is that mysteriously handled for you by the Go distribution itself?

                                                1. 2

                                                  You literally just run GOOS=<your target os> GOARCH=<your target architecture> go build. No setup needed. Here’s the vars go build inspects.

                                                  It’s frustrating trying to do similar in compiles languages, and then interpreted languages with native modules are even worse.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    Go basically DIYs the whole toolchain and directly produces binaries. That has pros and cons, but means it can cross-compile without needing any third-party stuff like the Xcode images. For example it does its own linking, so it doesn’t need the Xcode / LLVM linker to be installed for cross-compilation to Mac.

                                                  2. 1

                                                    AFAICT, XAR still doesn’t include the Python interpreter, so it’s not completely independent?

                                                    1. 1

                                                      No reason you can’t put a whole virtualenv, python interpreter and all, into your XAR. XAR can pack anything.

                                                      You still need a tool to prepare that virtualenv so that you can pack it, and that’s the sort of tool I struggle to find - cross-compiling a venv, or equivalent in other languages.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        I think most OSS work uses the Mac builders on Travis CI for building mac binaries.

                                                        1. 1

                                                          Yes, exactly. I am less interested in different formats and more in a tool to create them. The ease of doing that with Go is the target.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            The ease of doing that with Go is the target.

                                                            By this you mean, you’re looking for a solution for Python packaging that makes it as easy as Go to distribute universally?

                                                            I used this once before to take some code I wrote for Linux (simple cli with some libraries - click, fabric, etc.) and release it for Windows: http://www.py2exe.org/index.cgi/Tutorial

                                                            The Windows users on my team used the .exe file and it actually worked. It was a while back but I remember that it was straightforward.

                                                    1. 7

                                                      First, this is off-topic. Lobste.rs is a technology focused discussion site, please only post articles that are related to the site’s topic.

                                                      Second, please don’t include snippets of the linked story in the description, people can click through and read on their own.

                                                      1. 6

                                                        Clearly a lot of work went into this post, but I found it less of a “state of type hints” and more of a “what and how”, in that I was expecting an overview of adoption, or progress in the type system. Having said that, it’s probably an excellent post for someone wondering “what are type hints in Python and how can I use them?”

                                                        However, I’m pretty sure the final paragraph is incorrect?

                                                        Remember that, similar to unit tests, while it does makes your code base contain an extra number of lines, at the end of the day all the code you add is code that is automatically checked and enforced to be correct. It acts as a safety net to ensure that when you change things around later on things keep working

                                                        In a statically-typed language this would be true, but type hints in Python are just hints. There’s no guarantee from Python that either the hints or what’s passed is actually correct.

                                                        1. 7

                                                          While it’s true that Python’s type-hints aren’t automatically enforced, the same is true of tests: they don’t help either unless you run the test suite. At least for Python, comparing types and tests in this way seems reasonable.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            In a statically-typed language this would be true, but type hints in Python are just hints.

                                                            I write a lot of Python and thus far I’ve eschewed type hints, for the simple reason that if I’m gonna go to all that effort I might as well just write Go.

                                                            (I’m being slightly sarcastic, but there’s a kernel of truth in there.)

                                                            1. 6

                                                              I also write a lot of Python, and I type-hint 100% of it. The type hints typically take very little effort to write, and the benefits (IDE help + fewer bugs + easier refactoring) save me a lot of work, so on net it’s almost certainly effort-saving.

                                                              (A bonus that’s possibly orthogonal to effort is that having to think about and write out the types I use encourages me to design cleaner APIs and makes a lot of bad code smells much more obvious.)

                                                              1. 2

                                                                Sure, and Python will still support that. Now imagine you’re an organization like Google and you have 100 million lines of Python in your company’s repo. It’s not going to be economically viable to rewrite it but you’d still like to incrementally add type checking to try to lower the rate bugs are found in Python code. That’s where Python’s type checking makes sense at the moment. I’ve still yet to see much adoption in the scientific Python space, for example, although I bet that’s mostly because NumPy doesn’t have type stubs yet.

                                                                1. 3

                                                                  If wishes were fishes, one of the fish in my river would be to have something like [Elm’s record types], but for specifying Pandas data frame column names instead of record fields. Elm’s record types do not require you to specify all of the input’s fields; instead, you specify the ones the function expects, and the fields that are guaranteed to be in the output. The typechecker keeps track of which fields a record has as it passes through the functions.

                                                                  It would be perfect for the domain-specific cleaning and wrangling functions one writes on top of pandas. I realise this is not a trivial thing to wish for, though.

                                                            1. 14

                                                              This blog post: a case study in being a jerk to someone who is being a jerk, only since Linus is a “jerk” you get off scott-free. Unsurprisingly, this is written by someone who has never contributed to the Linux kernel and who was uninvolved in the discussion he’s picking apart.

                                                              The revised email at the end does lose information. Contrary to what hipsters write blog posts complaining about, 99% of Linus’s emails are cordial. The information that’s lost is the conveyance that this is more important to Linus than most subjects.

                                                              1. 20

                                                                This comment: a case study in being a jerk to someone who is being a jerk to a jerk.

                                                                In all seriousness, I don’t believe that Gary Bernhardt is being a jerk at all. There’s a line between being critical of a piece of work and calling someone brain damaged, and hopefully, we all can see the difference.

                                                                Aside: I love when people use the word “hipster” to invalidate other viewpoints. Apparently, there are two modes of being: Being Right and Being A Hipster.

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  To the unserious comment, I don’t think I was being a jerk. I called him a jerk, which I guess you could argue is a jerk move under any circumstances, but if I’m being a jerk then so is Gary.

                                                                  To the serious comment, I just want to note that “brain damaged” is a meme among old school hackers which isn’t as strong of a word as you think.

                                                                  To the aside, I don’t use hipster as an insult or to imply wrongness, but I do use it to invalidate his point. Gary is a Ruby developer. Linus is a kernel developer. The worlds are far removed from each other.

                                                                  1. 50

                                                                    I’ve put tens of thousands of lines of C into production, including multiple Linux kernel drivers. In one case, those kernel drivers were critical-path code on a device used in strain testing the wings of an airplane that you might’ve flown in by now.

                                                                    I’m not a stranger to the kernel; I just left that world. Behavior like Linus’ in that email was part of the reason, though far from the only reason.

                                                                    With all of that said: having written a bunch of systems software shouldn’t be a prerequisite for suggesting that we avoid attacking people personally when they make programming mistakes, or what we suspect are programming mistakes.

                                                                    1. 10

                                                                      Exactly. I’ve also met many people that do high-performance, embedded, and/or safety-critical code in C that are more polite in these situations. Linus’ attitude is a separate issue from what’s necessary to evaluate and constructively criticize code.

                                                                    2. 17

                                                                      “brain damaged” is a meme among old school hackers which isn’t as strong of a word as you think.

                                                                      Yikes. That “meme” is a whole other thing I don’t even care to unpack right now.

                                                                      I don’t use hipster as an insult or to imply wrongness, but I do use it to invalidate his point. Gary is a Ruby developer. Linus is a kernel developer. The worlds are far removed from each other.

                                                                      Gotcha. Kernal developer == real old-school hacker. Ruby developer == script kiddie hipster. Are we really still having this argument in 2018?

                                                                      1. 2

                                                                        Yikes. That “meme” is a whole other thing I don’t even care to unpack right now.

                                                                        “Brain damaged” is a term from back in the Multics days, Linus didn’t make that one up for the occasion. If you’re unfamiliar with the “jargon file” aka hacker dictionary, you can see the history of this particular term here: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/brain-damaged.html

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          Yikes. That “meme” is a whole other thing I don’t even care to unpack right now.

                                                                          Listen, cultures are different and culture shock is a thing. I’m in a thread full of foreigners shocked that customs are different elsewhere. You better just take my word for it on “brain damaged” because you clearly aren’t a member of this culture and don’t know what you’re talking about.

                                                                          Gotcha. Kernal developer == real old-school hacker. Ruby developer == script kiddie hipster. Are we really still having this argument in 2018?

                                                                          How about you quit putting words in my mouth? Do you really need me to explain the world of difference between Ruby development and kernel hacking? In 2018? It’s not a matter of skill. Gary is great at what he does, but it has almost nothing to do with what Linus does. The people who surround Gary and the people who surround Linus are mutually exclusive groups with different cultural norms.

                                                                          1. 21

                                                                            You can’t use “it’s our culture” as a panacea; calling someone an idiot, moron etc. is a deliberate attempt to hurt them. I guess if what you’re saying is, “it’s our culture to intentionally hurt the feelings of people who have bad ideas,” well, then we might be at an impasse.

                                                                            1. 22

                                                                              The kind of toxic exclusivity and “old school hacker culture” elitism that you’re spouting in this thread is not what I expect to see on Lobsters. It makes me genuinely sad to see somebody saying these things and it also makes me apprehensive of ever being involved in the same project or community as you. Software development today is not what it was 20 –or even 5– years ago. Today it is far more about people than it is about software or technology. You may not like this, but it is the reality.

                                                                              1. 7

                                                                                Lobste.rs always had a few vocal people like this in threads. But note that they’re in the minority and generally are not upvoted as much as the people who aren’t elitist, racist, or just generally being a jerk.

                                                                                1. 5

                                                                                  “old school hacker culture” elitism

                                                                                  Near 40, I can agree to be called old. But not elitist.
                                                                                  And I cannot accept to be associated with racist.

                                                                                  Not all software developers are hackers. Not all hackers are software developers.

                                                                                  Is stating this “elitism”? Is it “racism”? Is it being “jerk”?
                                                                                  Or is just using terms properly?

                                                                      2. 5

                                                                        The information that’s lost is the conveyance that this is more important to Linus than most subjects.

                                                                        So add “I want to stress that this issue is really important to me” at the end of the revised email.

                                                                        I think that making an issue out of this particular information being lost is missing the point - that it would be possible to say the same thing as Linus did without being abusive.

                                                                        Contrary to what hipsters write blog posts complaining about

                                                                        You’re falling into the same trap that the post discusses. This derision isn’t necessary to make your point, and doesn’t make it any stronger - it just adds an unnecessary insult.

                                                                        1. 9

                                                                          Contrary to what hipsters write blog posts complaining about, 99% of Linus’s emails are cordial.

                                                                          That may well be true, but do we need that last 1% in a professional setting?

                                                                          1. 9

                                                                            (I am not defending Linus’ behaviour here, please don’t put those words in my mouth.)

                                                                            I strongly take issue with American ideas of “professionalism”, and an even more so with the idea that we get to decide whether this project is “a professional setting” or not. What exactly makes this a “professional setting”? What is a “professional setting”? Why do we hold some interactions to higher standards than others?

                                                                            I suspect “money changing hands” is the thing that makes this “a professional setting”, and that grinds my gears even further. Why are we supposed to hold ourselves to different standards just because some people are getting paid for doing it?

                                                                            1. 3

                                                                              Right, “professionalism” implies that you only need to be nice to somebody when you want them to something for you or want their money. This should actually be about “respect”, whether or not you want a Linux contributor to do something for you or want their money.

                                                                            2. 12

                                                                              The Linux kernel is not a professional setting. Besides, I argue that the 1% is useful, even in a professional setting - sometimes strong words are called for. I’ll be That Guy and say that people should grow a thicker skin, especially people who weren’t even the subject of the email and have never been involved in kernel development.

                                                                              1. 14

                                                                                If I look at who the contributors to the Linux kernel are, it would certainly appear to be a professional endeavor.

                                                                                A large chunk of contributions to the kernel are made by people who are getting paid by the companies they work for to contribute. Sounds like a professional setting to me.

                                                                                1. 4

                                                                                  Linux development is only “a professional endeavour” (which is a phrase I have strong issues with, see above) because some people decided to build their businesses in Linus’ craft room. We can like or dislike Linus’ behaviour, but we don’t get to ascribe “professionalism” or lack thereof (if there even is such a thing) to Linus’ work or behaviour, or that of any of the contributors.

                                                                                  Even if “professionalism” is an actual thing (it’s not; it’s just a tool used by people in power to keep others down) it’s between the people doing the paying, and the people getting the pay, and has nothing to do with any of us.

                                                                                  This idea that people should behave differently when there’s money involved is completely offensive to me.

                                                                                  1. 7

                                                                                    But it’s not. It’s a collaboration between everyone, including professionals and hobbyists. The largest group of kernel contributors are volunteers. On top of that, Linus doesn’t have to answer to anyone.

                                                                                    1. 8

                                                                                      So, having a hobbyist involved means that you can be dickhead? Is that the conclusion that should be drawn from your statements?

                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                        No. I’m saying that Linus is not a dickhead, Linux is not a professional endeavour, and neither should be held to contrived professional standards.

                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                          “I’m saying that Linus is not a dickhead”

                                                                                          His comments are proving otherwise given the main article shows the same information could’ve been conveyed without all the profanity, personal insults, and so on. He must be adding that fluff because he enjoys it or has self-control issues. He’s intentionally or accidentally a dick. I say that as a satirist whose a dick to people that give me headaches in real life. Although it doesn’t take one to know one, being someone whose always countering dicks and assholes with some dickish habits of his own makes what Linus is doing more evident. If no mental illness, there’s little excuse past him not giving a shit.

                                                                                          1. 5

                                                                                            “doesn’t behave according to my cultural norms” == “mental illness”

                                                                                            Seriously?

                                                                                            I would really appreciate it if you could stop expecting that your cultural norms have to apply to everyone on the planet.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              Im identifying the cultural norm of being an asshole, saying it applies to him at times, and saying the project would benefit if he knocked if off. Im not forcing my norms on anyone.

                                                                                              Your comment is more amusing giving someone with Linus’s norns might just reply with profanity and personsl insults. Then, you might be complaining about that. ;)

                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                Then, you might be complaining about that. ;)

                                                                                                No, I’d just accept that people from different cultures behave differently.

                                                                                                Let’s face it, most people hate getting told they are wrong, regardless of the tone. That’s just how we are as humans.

                                                                                                Taking offense about the tone just seems very US-specific, as they are accustomed to receiving some special superpowers in a discussion by uttering “I’m offended”.

                                                                                                Some of the best feedback I received in my life wouldn’t be considered acceptable by US standards and I simply don’t care – I just appreciate the fact that someone took his time to spell out the technical problems.

                                                                                                Here is a recent example: https://github.com/rust-lang/cargo/pull/5183#issuecomment-381449546

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                                                                                                  Here is a recent example: https://github.com/rust-lang/cargo/pull/5183#issuecomment-381449546

                                                                                                  I’m not familiar with Rust, so maybe I’m missing crucial context, but I read this feedback as firm but unproblematic overall. Compared to Linus’ email:

                                                                                                  • Comment admits that there are multiple points of view, gives case for their take on it.
                                                                                                  • Focuses on the problems at hand rather than speculating on characteristics of any individuals involved, beyond acknowledging other viewpoints.
                                                                                                  • Doesn’t include any personal insults.
                                                                                                  • Doesn’t include any profanity that I noticed, certainly not gratuituous profanity.

                                                                                                  It could be nicer, sure. But it seemed respectful, in the “you can do what you’re doing but consider these things:” kind of way…? The author event went out of their way to acknowledge being unconstructive.

                                                                                                  To my reading it seemed closer to Gary’s email than Linus’.

                                                                                                  To put it another way: if Linus wrote emails like this (only shorter, probably) then I don’t think Gary would have written a blog post about it.

                                                                                                  (For the record: I’m not American, but I do fall on the gee-it’d-be-great-if-Linus-stopped-abusing-his-colleagues side of this debate.)

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                                                                                                    I didn’t intend to imply that this was comparable to Linus’ mail, but that people who would be offended by Linus’ writing would also be offended by that comment.

                                                                                                    It’s a slippery slide where every honest-to-go comment that expresses real feelings starts getting replaced by “this is an interesting idea, but did you consider …” corporate lingo, even if the code is horribly wrong.

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                                                                                                      I didn’t intend to imply that this was comparable to Linus’ mail, but that people who would be offended by Linus’ writing would also be offended by that comment.

                                                                                                      I understand this is your point, but I think there is no evidence for this. The people complaining about Linus’ conduct are complaining about specific things, and these things are not present in the comment you linked.

                                                                                                      Did anyone in the Rust community (generally considered a “nicer” community than kernel development) raise concerns about this comment?

                                                                                                      There is a difference between “not overtly nice” and “openly abusive”, even accounting for cultural context.

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                                                                                                    Then you and I arent that different in how we look at stuff. Ive just layered on top of it a push for project owners to do what’s most effective on social side.

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                                                                                                I believe it’s intentional. He does not want to be bothered by nurturing the newbs, so he deters them from going to him directly and forces them to do their learning elsewhere.

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                                                                                                These numbers suggest it is a professional endeavor:

                                                                                                https://thenewstack.io/contributes-linux-kernel/

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                                                                                                  Those numbers just break down the professionals involved, and don’t consider the volunteers. If you sum the percentages in that article you get around 40%. Even accomodating for smaller companies that didn’t make the top N companies, that’s a pretty big discrepancy.

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                                                                                          Linus himself is working in a professional capacity. He’s employed by the Linux Foundation to work on Linux. The fact he is employed to work on an open source project that he founded doesn’t make that situation non-professional.

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                                                                                      Serious question: Why does the Dyson Sphere concept apparently require emitting ‘waste heat’? Why not beam it back on the star you’re enveloping?

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                                                                                        That’s what’s happening in this paper. The “waste” is being magically converted into thrust somehow.

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                                                                                          Yes, correct.

                                                                                          Sorry, I was talking off-topic, about traditional stationary Dyson spheres.

                                                                                          I think the answer to my question is some principle of thermodynamics. Something like “whenever an object is being heated faster than it is radiating heat away, its temperature will increase until the rate of radiating heat away equals the rate at which it is being heated”.

                                                                                          That makes sense to me if the sphere was a dumb ball of metal. But if it is full of machinery, well… why not like, uh, shoot some big lasers at the star, instead of emitting infrared into space?

                                                                                          Maybe I know the answer… Something along the lines of “there is a difference between the energy in your gas tank and the energy in a hot hunk of metal”… But, why? Steam engines convert heat to work just fine. …I guess you gotta condense the steam back into liquid, and one obvious way to do that is …wait for it… to radiate infrared into space!

                                                                                          Has anybody ever heard of a Dyson sphere that doesn’t radiate anything, ie, it is cold on the outside?

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                                                                                        I think this is due to the lack of pagination

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                                                                                          Yeah. I don’t think this was an intentional piece of design, just an oversight.

                                                                                          @ap, no, there isn’t a way to retrieve all of your, or anyone else’s comments. If it’s a priority I could dump them from the database for you, but otherwise it’ll happen when someone picks up #394.

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                                                                                            No worries, I am not in a hurry and don’t require special treatment. So long as I can expect to be able to get my comments out someday, I’m fine just waiting for it to happen. Since it’s not purposefully the way it is, and in fact the stated intent is to provide what I want, then if it bugs me that much, I always have the option of putting in the effort myself. That’s good enough for me. Thank you.

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                                                                                              Thanks for your understanding and patience.

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                                                                                          Lobsters doesn’t have a rule about editorialized titles like HN. Editorialize away.

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                                                                                            This is not quite true; see the story submission guidelines from the ‘Submit Story’ page:

                                                                                            Do not editorialize story titles, but when the original story’s title has no context or is unclear, please change it. Please remove extraneous components from titles such as the name of the site, blog, section, and author.