1. 5

    I’m aware there’s a similar (awesome) post from the Mozilla folks at the front-page right now, but this one seems a bit more taxative, and perhaps gives a clearer overview for folks who already know what Rust 2018 is generally about.

    1. 81

      I beg all my fellow crustaceans to please, please use Firefox. Not because you think it’s better, but because it needs our support. Technology only gets better with investment, and if we don’t invest in Firefox, we will lose the web to chrome.

      1. 59

        Not because you think it’s better

        But that certainly helps too. It is a great browser.

        • privacy stuff — the cookie container API for things like Facebook Container, built-in tracker blocker, various anti-fingerprinting things they’re backporting from the Tor Browser
        • honestly just the UI and the visual design! I strongly dislike the latest Chrome redesign >_<
        • nice devtools things — e.g. the CSS Grid inspector
        • more WebExtension APIs (nice example: only on Firefox can Signed Pages actually prevent the page from even loading when the signature check fails)
        • the fastest (IIRC) WASM engine (+ now in Nightly behind a pref: even better codegen backend based on Cranelift)
        • ongoing but already usable Wayland implementation (directly in the official tree now, not as a fork)
        • WebRender!!!
        1. 7

          On the other hand, WebSocket debugging (mostly frame inspection) is impossible in Firefox without an extension. I try not to install any extensions that I don’t absolutely need and Chrome has been treating me just fine in this regard[1].

          Whether or not I agree with Google’s direction is now a moot point. I need Chrome to do what I do with extensions.

          As soon as Firefox supports WebSocket debugging natively, I will be perfectly happy to switch.

          [1] I mostly oppose extensions because of questionable maintenance cycles. I allow uBlock and aXe because they have large communities backing them.

          1. 3

            Axe (https://www.deque.com/axe/) seems amazing. I know it wasn’t the focus of your post – but I somehow missed this when debugging an accessibility issue just recently, I wish I had stumbled onto it. Thanks!

            1. 1

              You’re welcome!

              At $work, we used aXe and NVDA to make our webcomponents AA compliant with WCAG. aXe was invaluable for things like contrast and missing role attributes.

            2. 3

              WebSocket debugging (mostly frame inspection) is impossible in Firefox without an extension

              Is it possible with an extension? I can’t seem to find one.

              1. 1

                I have never needed to debug WebSockets and see no reason for that functionality to bloat the basic browser for everybody. Too many extensions might not be a good thing but if you need specific functionality, there’s no reason to hold back. If it really bothers you, run separate profiles for web development and browsing. I have somewhat more than two extensions and haven’t had any problems.

                1. 1

                  I do understand your sentiment, but the only extension that I see these days is marked “Experimental”.

                  On the other hand, I don’t see how it would “bloat” a browser very much. (Disclaimer: I have never written a browser or contributed to any. I am open to being proved wrong.) I have written a WebSockets library myself, and it’s not a complex protocol. It can’t be too expensive to update a UI element on every (websocket) frame.

              2. 5

                Yes! I don’t know about you, but I love the fact that Firefox uses so much less ram than chrome.

                1. 2

                  This was one of the major reasons I stuck with FF for a long time. It is still a pronounced difference.

                2. 3

                  honestly just the UI and the visual design! I strongly dislike the latest Chrome redesign >_<

                  Yeah, what’s the deal with the latest version of Chrome? All those bubbly menus feel very mid-2000’s. Everything old is new again.

                  1. 3

                    I found a way to go back to the old ui from https://www.c0ffee.net/blog/openbsd-on-a-laptop/ (it was posted here a few weeks ago):

                    Also, set the following in chrome://flags:

                    • Smooth Scrolling: (personal preference)
                    • UI Layout for the browser’s top chrome: set to “Normal” to get the classic Chromium look back
                    • Identity consistency between browser and cookie jar: set to “Disabled” to keep Google from hijacking any Google > - login to sign you into Chrome
                    • SafeSearch URLs reporting: disabled

                    (emphasis mine)

                  2. 1

                    The Wayland implementation is not usable quite yet, though, but it is close. I tried it under Sway, but it was crashy.

                    1. -3

                      Not really. Not to mention Pocked integration and recent vpn advertisement. Ah, and they have removed RSS support.

                      It’s just another product made by a for-profit corporation.

                      I think web got over-complicated. There are none usable truly independent browsers and probably will never be. It’s a read-only “opensource”.

                      1. 16

                        It’s just another product made by a for-profit corporation.

                        They (Mozilla) are actually a non-profit.

                        1. 2

                          There is also Mozilla corporation.

                          1. 12

                            …which is 100% owned by the Mozilla Foundation, and:

                            The Mozilla Corporation reinvests all of its profits back into the Mozilla projects.

                            Forming for-profit corporations is not uncommon for NGOs, because NGOs in many countries are severely legally limited in the amount of commercial activities they’re able to do.

                            1. 3

                              Adding to that, funding FOSS software development is not considered 501(c)3-eligible in the US.

                        2. 5

                          I had the same impression with that over-complication of JS into ES6. CSS is also looking more like a programming language. HTTP/2 is now a binary protocol. So to have a modern web platform, you need to support all of these, and none are trivial anymore. On the other hand, I find it amazing to be able to do netwroking, audio, video, 3d and highly customizable user interfaces with (relatively) few efforts at a pretty good speed. As a platform for creativity and experimentation, it is without equivalent.

                          1. 2

                            without equivalent.

                            Java applets - done right?

                            1. 3

                              Or Flash/Shockwave done openly and right?

                              1. 4

                                Both Java applets and Flash were actually more like trojan horses. See how Flash ( very good scenegraph at the time) became Air (ie. a tentative to take over the Web like Java) and thankfully died because Apple killed it with the iPhone. The intention was to run programs within a walled garden, not to interoperate with the Web at large. At least that’s how I read it.

                                1. 4

                                  Good point on long-term risk. Do note I said Flash/Shockwave the tech. That was made by Macromedia, not Adobe. Macromedia was a company whose pricey tech was kick-ass but no attempt to be open or interoperate past maybe Dreamweaver. Catchy name many lay people could spell, too.

                                  I think Adobe acquiring them made me drop some F-bombs, sigh a bit, eye rolls, and so on. I knew there would be short-term improvements before the large company FUBARed its value over time. Apple’s position sealed its fate.

                                  1. 2

                                    Indeed, Macromedia had a much better stewardship than Adobe in this respect. What I find really ironic is that before the acquisition, Adobe was pushing SVG and SVG animations as an alternative to Flash, embracing and pushing the web standards. After the acquisition, everything stalled and it’s only with Apple creating the Canvas API and standardizing it through the newly created WHATWG that we started to catch up and be able to do so fast interactive graphics on the Web. What we lost, though, is one of the best tool to create vector animations with programmatic behaviour. One step ahead, two steps back some might say.

                                2. 3

                                  I think the difference is that aplets and flash were supposed to extend the web experience, new technologies are replacing it. It’s convenient but dangerous as it promotes monoculture. I don’t know if there is a safe middle ground.

                                  1. 5

                                    There is a lot being lost with the death of Flash. It was amazingly lightweight when it started out. You can take that Homestar Runner e-mail and the original Flash, resize it to 4k, and it will still render correctly and sharply. You can’t do that when you export animation to YouTube at a set resolution. Not to mention all the games that were made in Flash that we’ll loose soon.

                                    Adobe really butchered all the Macromedia stuff when they acquired that company. It’s pretty sad.

                            2. 2

                              What does “removes RSS support” mean? Was it possible to use it as a feed reader before?

                              1. 3

                                Yeah, it was called “Live Bookmarks” and basically made your RSS feed subs show up in your bookmarks bar (or accessible from a page). It actually looked really neat, but I only found about it when/because they removed it.

                                1. 10

                                  “Live Bookmarks” still exist, in Firefox 63.0.3 released on Nov 15th, 2018. I use them. Go to any RSS feed in FF and they will pop up. I use them for multiple Discourse forums.

                                    1. 1

                                      Ah, sad times, thanks for the link!

                                2. -1

                                  Sure, using live bookmarks and integrated reader. But RSS collided with the their new commercial and closed product namely Pocket.

                                  1. 4

                                    That’s not completely fair. I’m not sure if anything has happened yet, but Mozilla does have plans to open-source Pocket:

                                    As a result of this strategic acquisition, Pocket will become a wholly owned subsidiary of Mozilla Corporation and will become part of the Mozilla open source project.

                            3. 16

                              I switched to Firefox last year, and I have to say I don’t miss Chrome in the slightest.

                              1. 13

                                And those with a little financial liberty, consider donating to Mozilla. They do a lot of important work free a free and open web.

                                1. 10

                                  I recently came back to Firefox from Vivaldi. That’s another Chromium/Webkit based browser and it’s closed source to boot.

                                  Firefox has improved greatly in speed as of late and I feel like we’re back in the era of the mid-2000s, asking people to chose Firefox over Chrome this time instead of IE.

                                  1. 2

                                    I’d love to switch from Vivaldi, but it’s simply not an option given the current (terrible) state of vertical tab support in Firefox.

                                    1. 2

                                      How is it terrible? The hiding of the regular tab bar is not an API yet and you have to use CSS for that, sure, but there are some very good tree style tab webextensions.

                                      1. 2

                                        The extensions are all terrible – but what’s more important is that I lost the belief that any kind of vertical tab functionality has any chance of long-term survival. Even if support was added now, it would be a constant battle to keep it and I’m frankly not interested in such fights anymore.

                                        Mozilla is chasing their idealized “average user” and is determined to push everyone into their one-size-fits-all idea of user interface design – anyone not happy with that can screw off, if it was for Mozilla.

                                        It’s 2018 – I don’t see why I even have to argue for vertical tabs and mouse gestures anymore. I just pick a browser vendor which hasn’t been asleep on the wheel for the last 5 years and ships with these features out of the box.

                                        And if the web in the future ends up as some proprietary API defined by whatever Google Chrome implements, because Firefox went down, Mozilla has only itself to blame.

                                        1. 2

                                          The extensions are all terrible – but what’s more important is that I lost the belief that any kind of vertical tab functionality has any chance of long-term survival. Even if support was added now, it would be a constant battle to keep it and I’m frankly not interested in such fights anymore. The whole point of moving to WebExtensions was long term support. They couldn’t make significant changes without breaking a lot of the old extensions. The whole point was to unhook extensions from the internals so they can refactor around them and keep supporting them.

                                          1. 0

                                            That’s like a car manufacturer removing all electronics from a car – sure it makes the car easier to support … but now the car doesn’t even turn on anymore!

                                            Considering that cars are usually used for transportation, not for having them sit in the garage, you shouldn’t be surprised that customers buy other cars in the future.

                                            (And no, blaming “car enthusiasts” for having unrealistic expectations, like it happens in the case of browser users, doesn’t cut it.)

                                            1. 3

                                              So you’d rather they didn’t improve it at all? Or would you rather they broke most extensions every release?

                                              1. 3

                                                I’m not @soc, but I wish Firefox had delayed their disabling of old-style extensions in Firefox 57 until they had replicated more of the old functionality with the WebExtensions API – mainly functionality related to interface customization, tabs, and sessions.

                                                Yes, during the time of that delay, old-style extensions would continue to break with each release, but the maintainers of Tree Style Tabs and other powerful extensions had already been keeping up with each release by releasing fixed versions. They probably could have continued updating their extensions until WebExtensions supported their required functionality. And some users might prefer to run slightly-buggy older extensions for a bit instead of switching to the feature-lacking new extensions straight away – they should have that choice.

                                                1. 1

                                                  What’s the improvement? The new API was so bad that they literally had to pull the plug on the existing API to force extension authors to migrate. That just doesn’t happen in cases where the API is “good”, developers are usually eager to adopt them and migrate their code.

                                                  Let’s not accuse people you disagree with that they are “against improvements” – it’s just that the improvements have to actually exist, and in this case the API clearly wasn’t ready. This whole fiasco feels like another instance of CADT-driven development and the failure of management to reign in on it.

                                                  1. 3

                                                    The old extension API provided direct access to the JavaScript context of both the chrome and the tab within a single thread, so installing an XUL extension was disabling multiprocess mode. Multiprocess mode seems like an improvement; in old Firefox, a misbehaving piece of JavaScript would lock up the browser for about a second before eventually popping up a dialog offering to kill it, whereas in a multiprocess browser, it should be possible to switch and close tabs no matter what the web page inside does. The fact that nobody notices when it works correctly seems to make it the opposite of Attention-Deficient-Driven-Design; it’s the “focus on quality of implementation, even at the expense of features” design that we should be encouraging.

                                                    The logical alternative to “WebExtension For The Future(tm)” would’ve been to just expose all of the relevant threads of execution directly to the XUL extensions. run-this-in-the-chome.xul and run-this-in-every-tab.xul and message pass between them. But at that point, we’re talking about having three different extension APIs in Firefox.

                                                    Which isn’t to say that I think you’re against improvement. I am saying that you’re thinking too much like a developer, and not enough like the poor sod who has to do QA and Support triage.

                                                    1. 2

                                                      Improving the actual core of Firefox. They’re basically ripping out and replacing large components every other release. This would break large amount of plugins constantly. Hell, plugins wouldn’t even work in Nightly. I do agree with @roryokane that they should have tried to improve it before cutting support. The new API is definitely missing many things but it was the right decision to make for the long term stability of Firefox.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        They could have made the decision to ax the old API after extension authors adopted it. That adoption failed so hard that they had to force developers to use the new API speaks for itself.

                                                        I’d rather have extension that I have to fix from time to time, than no working extensions at all.

                                              2. 1

                                                Why should Mozilla care that much about your niche use case? They already have a ton of stuff to deal with and barely enough funding.

                                                It’s open source, make your own VerticalTabFox fork :)

                                                1. 3

                                                  Eh … WAT? Mozilla went the extra mile with their recent extension API changes to make things – that worked before – impossible to implement with a recent Firefox version. The current state of tab extensions is this terrible, because Mozilla explicitly made it this way.

                                                  I used Firefox for more than 15 years – the only thing I wanted was to be left alone.

                                                  It’s open source, make your own VerticalTabFox fork :)

                                                  Feel free to read my comment above to understand why that doesn’t cut it.

                                                  Also, Stuff that works >> open source. Sincerely, a happy Vivaldi user.

                                                  1. 2

                                                    It’s one of the laws of the internet at this point: Every thread about Firefox is always bound to attract someone complaining about WebExtensions not supporting their pet feature that was possible with the awful and insecure old extension system.

                                                    If you’re care about “non terrible” (whatever that means — Tree Style Tab looks perfect to me) vertical tabs more than anything — sure, use a browser that has them.

                                                    But you seem really convinced that Firefox could “go down” because of not supporting these relatively obscure power user features well?? The “average user” they’re “chasing” is not “idealized”. The actual vast majority of people do not choose browsers based on vertical tabs and mouse gestures. 50% of Firefox users do not have a single extension installed, according to telemetry. The majority of the other 50% probably only have an ad blocker.

                                                    1. 3

                                                      If you’re care about “non terrible” (whatever that means — Tree Style Tab looks perfect to me) vertical tabs more than anything — sure, use a browser that has them.

                                                      If you compare the current state of the art of vertical tabs extensions, even Mozilla thinks they suck – just compare them to their own Tab Center experiment: https://testpilot.firefox.com/static/images/experiments/tab-center/details/tab-center-1.1957e169.jpg

                                                      Picking just one example: Having the navigation bar at a higher level of the visual hierarchy is just wrong – the tab panel isn’t owned by the navigation bar, the navigation bar belongs to a specific tab! Needless to say, all of the vertical tab extensions are forced to be wrong, because they lack the API do implement the UI correctly.

                                                      This is how my browser currently looks like, for comparison: https://i.imgur.com/5dTX8Do.png

                                                      But you seem really convinced that Firefox could “go down” because of not supporting these relatively obscure power user features well?? The “average user” they’re “chasing” is not “idealized”. The actual vast majority of people do not choose browsers based on vertical tabs and mouse gestures. 50% of Firefox users do not have a single extension installed, according to telemetry. The majority of the other 50% probably only have an ad blocker.

                                                      You can only go so far alienating the most loyal users that use Firefox for specific purposes until the stop installing/recommending it to their less technically-inclined friends and relatives.

                                                      Mozilla is so busy chasing after Chrome that it doesn’t even realize that most Chrome users will never switch. They use Chrome because “the internet” (www.google.com) told them so. As long as Mozilla can’t make Google recommend Firefox on their frontpage, this will not change.

                                                      Discarding their most loyal users while trying to get people to adopt Firefox who simply aren’t interested – this is a recipe for disaster.

                                                  2. 1

                                                    and barely enough funding

                                                    Last I checked they pulled in half a billion in revenue (2016). Do you believe this is barely enough?

                                                    1. 2

                                                      For hundreds of millions users?

                                                      Yeah.

                                                2. 1

                                                  At least with multi-row tabs in CSS you can’t dragndrop tabs. That’s about as bad as it gets.

                                                3. 2

                                                  Are vertical tabs so essential?

                                                  1. 3

                                                    Considering the change in screen ratios over the past ten years (displays get shorter and wider), yes, it absolutely is.

                                                    With vertical tabs I can get almost 30 full-width tabs on screen, with horizontal tabs I can start fishing for the right tab after about 15, as the tab width gets increasingly smaller.

                                                    Additionally, vertical tabs reduce the way of travel substantially when selecting a different tab.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      I still miss them, didn’t cripple me, but really hurt. The other thing about Tree (not just vertical) tabs that FF used to have was that the subtree was contextual to the parent tree. So, when you opened a link in a background tab, it was opened in a new tab that was a child of your current tab. For doing like documentation hunting / research it was amazing and I still haven’t found its peer.

                                                  2. 1

                                                    It’s at least partially open source. They provide tarballs.

                                                    1. 4

                                                      https://help.vivaldi.com/article/is-vivaldi-open-source/

                                                      The chromium part is legally required to be open, the rest of their code is like readable source, don’t get me wrong that’s way better than unreadable source but it’s also very wut.

                                                      1. 2

                                                        Very wut. It’s a weird uneasy mix.

                                                        1. 1

                                                          that’s way better than unreadable source but it’s also very wut.

                                                          I wouldn’t be sure of that. It makes it auditable, but has legal ramifications should you want to build something like vivaldi, but free.

                                                    2. 8

                                                      firefox does not get better with investment, it gets worse.

                                                      the real solution is to use netsurf or dillo or mothra, so that webmasters have to come to us and write websites that work with browsers that are simple enough to be independently maintained.

                                                      1. 8

                                                        Good luck getting more than 1‰ adoption 😉

                                                        1. 5

                                                          good luck achieving independence from Google by using a browser funded by Google

                                                          1. 1

                                                            I can achieve independence from Google without using netsurf, dillo, or mothra; to be quite honest, those will never catch on.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              can you achieve independence from google in a way that will catch on?

                                                              1. 1

                                                                I don’t think we’ll ever get the majority of browser share back into the hands of a (relatively) sane organization like Mozilla—but we can at least get enough people to make supporting alternative browsers a priority. On the other hand, the chances that web devs will ever feel pressured to support the browsers you mentioned, is close to nil. (No pun intended.)

                                                                1. 0

                                                                  what is the value of having an alternative, if that alternative is funded by google and sends data to google by default?

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    what is the value of having an alternative

                                                                    What would you like me to say, that Firefox’s existence is worthless? This is an absurd thing to insinuate.

                                                                    funded by google

                                                                    No. I’m not sure whether you’re speaking in hyperbole, misunderstood what I was saying, and/or altogether skipped reading what I wrote. But this is just not correct. If Google really had Mozilla by the balls as you suggest, they would coerce them to stop adding privacy features to their browser that, e.g., block Google Analytics on all sites.

                                                                    sends data to google by default

                                                                    Yes, though it seems they’ve been as careful as one could be about this. Also to be fair, if you’re browsing with DNT off, you’re likely to get tracked by Google at some point anyway. But the fact that extensions can’t block this does have me worried.

                                                                    1.  

                                                                      i’m sorry if i misread something you wrote. i’m just curious what benefit you expect to gain if more people start using firefox. if everyone switched to firefox, google could simply tighten their control over mozilla (continuing the trend of the past 10 years), and they would still have control over how people access the web.

                                                          2. 3

                                                            Just switch to Gopher.

                                                            1. 5

                                                              Just switch to Gopher

                                                              I know you were joking, but I do feel like there is something to be said for the simplicity of systems like gopher. The web is so complicated nowadays that building a fully functional web browser requires software engineering on a grand scale.

                                                              1. 3

                                                                yeah. i miss when the web was simpler.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  I was partially joking. I know there are new ActivityPub tools like Pleroma that support Gopher and I’ve though about adding support to generate/server gopher content for my own blog. I realize it’s still kinda a joke within the community, but you’re right about there being something simple about just having content without all the noise.

                                                            2. 1

                                                              Unless more than (rounded) 0% of people use it for Facebook, it won’t make a large enough blip for people to care. Also this is how IE was dominant, because so much only worked for them.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                yes, it would require masses of people. and yes it won’t happen, which is why the web is lost.

                                                            3. 2

                                                              I’ve relatively recently switched to FF, but still use Chrome for web dev. The dev tools still seem quite more advanced and the browser is much less likely to lock up completely if I have a JS issue that’s chewing CPU.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                I tried to use Firefox on my desktop. It was okay, not any better or worse than Chrome for casual browsing apart from private browsing Not Working The Way It Should relative to Chrome (certain cookies didn’t work across tabs in the same Firefox private window). I’d actually want to use Firefox if this was my entire Firefox experience.

                                                                I tried to use Firefox on my laptop. Site icons from bookmarks don’t sync for whatever reason (I looked up the ticket and it seems to be a policy problem where the perfect is the enemy of the kinda good enough), but it’s just a minor annoyance. The laptop is also pretty old and for that or whatever reason has hardware accelerated video decoding blacklisted in Firefox with no way to turn it back on (it used to work a few years ago with Firefox until it didn’t), so I can’t even play 720p YouTube videos at an acceptable framerate and noise level.

                                                                I tried to use Firefox on my Android phone. Bookmarks were completely useless with no way to organize them. I couldn’t even organize on a desktop Firefox and sync them over to the phone since they just came out in some random order with no way to sort them alphabetically. There was also something buggy with the history where clearing history didn’t quite clear history (pages didn’t show up in history, but links remained colored as visited if I opened the page again) unless I also exited the app, but I don’t remember the details exactly. At least I could use UBO.

                                                                This was all within the last month. I used to use Firefox before I used Chrome, but Chrome just works right now.

                                                                1. 6

                                                                  I definitely understand that Chrome works better for many users and you gave some good examples of where firefox fails. My point was that people need to use and support firefox despite it being worse than chrome in many ways. I’m asking people to make sacrifices by taking a principled position. I also recognize most users might not do that, but certainly, tech people might!? But maybe I’m wrong here, maybe the new kids don’t care about an open internet.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                I’m at @nikola@mi.pede.rs.

                                                                I just realized I toot about music a lot. Slightly less: computers, politics, random stuff. I’m a big fan of Mastodon!

                                                                1. 49

                                                                  I find this oft-seen sense of wonder about lobste.rs drifting away from people’s ideas of what it should be, and the appeal to lobste.rs being a website only about technology, with absolutely every non-technical element of discussion being off-topic, a bit tiresome.

                                                                  Lobste.rs appealed to me – and a lot of the people I know – because of its focus on technical content, not the exclusivity of the comments to technical discourse. I don’t think discussions on ethics get you on n-gate: reinventing bad technology and misunderstanding good technology while drinking the Silicon Valley kool-aid might, and those are all things this community fairly successfully avoided.

                                                                  If the vast majority of people here do feel it’s worthwhile to discuss technology in complete isolation from its effects on the outside world, that’s fair game, as much as it might make no sense to me whatsoever, and as much as I might not want to have any part in that. In that case, though, I’m guilty of a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of the website, and I believe this should be communicated and enforced far more explicitly, because the community obviously won’t “police” itself into it on its own.

                                                                  1. 4

                                                                    What I love about your response is that it brings up some radical questions. What makes good technology? How can I, as a professional, dig deep to have creative solutions? Should I be problem solving, or problem finding?

                                                                    Turns out people really like their information bubbles. They are comfortable. Now that there have been some ethics discussions, they popped people’s comfort bubbles. This is a good thing for those asking the right questions.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    To me, it seems it’s hard to draw the line. The modern capitalist economy has given us other glorious terms such as “personal branding”: do we require everyone who sells any sort of freelancing or contracting services, yet writes a neat and useful technical blog post, to tag the post as contentmarketing?

                                                                    I find that this community already does a fairly good job at separating the weeds from the wheat by having a critical mass of members who are consistently flagging low-quality posts without substance, be it a “content marketing” post, or simply someone being randomly malicious on the internet. Adding a tag could open the door to a lot of meta-arguments on semantics, which I don’t believe would be very productive.

                                                                    If we do add the tag, though, I believe it should be very clear when and where it applies, and this includes being very explicit about both corporations and personal blogs of people who do contracting, publish non-free educational materials etc.

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      I have an old Nexus 4 that I keep around, and very sporadically try to get it up & running using LineageOS without Google Play Services, in hope that I’ll be able to do that one day on the phone I use daily.

                                                                      It generally works impressively well, but for the life of me I cannot convince OsmAnd~ to properly figure out my location. I’ve tried all combinations in the Android Location settings dialog, all failing miserably (OsmAnd~ reporting “Position not yet known” indefinitely). I’m currently at a point where I’m considering hardware failure as an option, since it’s an old phone and this seems to be working out of the box for everyone else in the “Google-free Android phone” genre of articles… But I’m fairly certain the thing worked properly before switching to LineageOS.

                                                                      If anyone has any ideas, I’m all ears. I feel like I’m really close, but I depend on my phone’s maps too much to just let it go.

                                                                      1. 4

                                                                        You need a location services provider installed, which is one big thing I noticed the article neglected to mention. The MicroG project includes one along with other replacements for Google Play services.

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          That makes a lot of sense. I need to look into it, thanks!

                                                                          I have seen MicroG mentioned around before, but I wasn’t sure whether I really needed it.

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            Just to follow-up – I have played around with this today, and can confirm everything works fine after installing UnifiedNlp and a few location plugins. I did not have to install the “full” MicroG package, which is neat.

                                                                            There are a few hoops to jump through, though: I had to push the APK to /system/apps-priv from my computer since the standard installation from F-Droid did not work, and once I did that, it was not obvious how to configure UnifiedNlp (there was no icon in the application drawer, but there is an option in Android’s location settings).

                                                                            Thanks for the pointer, gcupc!

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          I would just like to cast a vote for looking into refurbished ThinkPads. After an incident involving a huge amount of water and my new ThinkPad T470s, I had to get my hands onto a replacement computer fairly quickly because I didn’t have a backup machine at the moment.

                                                                          I bought a refurbished T440 with a 256 GB SSD, 8 GB RAM, 1080p display, a decent CPU, and very fair batteries for approx. $500. The computer looked like new, and while the performance difference was somewhat noticeable (I believe NVMe drives in the T470s make a lot of difference), it was fast, portable and very usable.

                                                                          ThinkPad does have 15” models as well, and they’re also popular among refurbishers.

                                                                          1. 7

                                                                            Late last week I did a soft launch of my synthesizer VST plugin slightly ahead of schedule due to a high-profile electronic musician using it on a Twitch stream for several hours. It was unexpected, but served to force my hand somewhat in regard to putting the website and final 1.0 builds up.

                                                                            Next steps for me are finishing up the user manual and then doing a PR push of some sort – posting on forums, making a bit of noise about it. It’s my first time releasing a product on my own, and a B2C one at that, so there’s a lot of learning to be done still, but, hey, on the home stretch of the home stretch now.

                                                                            1. 3

                                                                              Could you give a bit more information on the performance? Who exactly has used the plugin, and is there a recording of it? Thanks!

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                Of course! It was Deadmau5, and there’s an archive of the stream on his Twitch channel.

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                                                                                  That indeed is as high-profile as they get! Congratulations!

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                                                                              I have been very distrustful of the whole “high end earbuds” thing ever since the fad started.

                                                                              I use two sets of Sennheiser 555 cans I’ve had for over a decade (one for work, one for home) they sound great and will last forever :)

                                                                              For earbuds I mostly use to listen to podcasts I own a set of super cheap $2o chinese bluetooth buds (SoundPeats I think? :) that work great.

                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                My HD-650’s are still going strong after 15 years. They can probably be found for $200 today, but cost a lot more than that new.

                                                                                I don’t think you are likely to get or should expect a quality sounding and long lasting set of cans for under $250 in the current market. Everything at that price or under seems to be high-end disposable products.

                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                  Some professional AKG and Beyerdynamic cost about €100 and last forever. Cables and ear cushions are replaceable.

                                                                                  Of course, they sound dead neutral and aren’t designed for the average consumer in mind.

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    That sounds like exactly what I want. Can you refer me to one of those models so I can buy it?

                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                      There are the AKG K-271 MKII and the slighly more expensive Beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro and a few others. Be careful with impedance: standard headphones are 32 ohms, 55 ohms works fine on almost any device but 80 ohms might be too high for your use case.

                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                        Beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro

                                                                                        No replaceable cables on those – but they are built like a tank.

                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                          Yes and no, it depends on what the meaning of “replaceable” is. Beyerdynamic do sell replacement cables but they have to be soldered.

                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                            shakes head disappointingly :)

                                                                                            Come on – the common meaning of replaceable/removable cables in the headphone space is no-soldering replacements. If we are going to broaden the definition to that it is almost absurdity. If you go into any sort of headphone picker/assistance and click “replaceable/removable cable” as a requirement, the DT-770’s will be filtered out.

                                                                                            EDIT: https://www.pcmag.com/review/355880/beyerdynamic-dt-770-pro (see cons)

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              Oops, sorry. I’m not a native speaker, sometimes I misuse words :)

                                                                                  2. 2

                                                                                    Massdrop has the HD6xx (which are based on the HD650) going for $200, and the HD58x (based on the HD580) for $150. I haven’t heard the HD58xs, but the HD6xx is an incredible headphone with a very competent sound signature and sturdy build quality. As a bonus, the cables and earpads on both are replaceable.

                                                                                    There are decent headphones that go for even cheaper than that. My Sennheiser HD485s (~$65) are decent sounding and 10+ years old, and the only thing I’ve had to do is change the earpads after a few years.

                                                                                  3. 2

                                                                                    Where does your distrust stem from? There isn’t much magic there – they are certain driver or driver sets and you can even build your own IEMs with custom shells from scratch: https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Custom-in-Ear-Monitors-DIY-CIEM/ (one of a dozen+ decent guides).

                                                                                    The tech is around them both BA and DD has been making steady quality progress for the last decade, and timing, housing shaping and jamming multiple drivers in is a lot of were the work is. When people pay for something like Jaybirds they are paying for the BT and codex stuff as well.

                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                      Distrust comes from the fact that I have never experienced what I would call seriously high quality sound from anything like “earbuds”.

                                                                                      Also my understanding is that the DACs in most mobile devices also put a limit on the quality you can get out of them no matter what you’re using.

                                                                                      1. 5

                                                                                        Also my understanding is that the DACs in most mobile devices also put a limit on the quality you can get out of them no matter what you’re using.

                                                                                        Good news, that simply isn’t true, you can rest easy knowing that the DAC’s haven’t really been in issue in a couple decades. In the last 80s and early 90s, there was DAC jitter, low sample rates and various other issues. Problems with phone audio are hardly ever the DAC. Even the very-cheap tier of DACs tend to be so good as to never be the issue.

                                                                                        Most phone issues around audio are either hiss or weakness. Hiss is just some extra power being diverted to the output by some rogue voltage somewhere making a jump due to temp or poor design. This isn’t a DAC failure but a design failure of the board, yet people often think it is a DAC failure because when they add an external DAC away from the voltage noise, it is fixed! The second issue people run into is just a weak output unable to drive the high impedance / huge drives they love – this requires an external AMP to solve, as it just lacks the energy to do it.

                                                                                        EDIT: The majority of phones can drive the majority of headphones with no issue currently, so don’t let that worry you in terms of purchasing decisions. There are exceptions: large audiophile cans needing amps, very sensitive IEMs picking up too much noise, but they are the exception not the rule.

                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                          That’s good to know. I think part of it also comes down to personal preference on my part. When I’m listening to music or pocasts on my phone, it’s typically in environments where the chances of my being able to actually perceive high fidelity are very small.

                                                                                          That said, I should probably look into a well rated set of budget bluetooth earbuds rather than just tossing $20 at whatever Amazon rates well :)

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                                                                                    First time poster here 👋

                                                                                    What most closely resembles a hobby is that I’m sourcing old Romanian books online, collecting them, and will hopefully be digitizing them in the near future. I’m now focused on books that have fallen into the public domain, and XIXth to XXth century cookbooks. I’ve also been collecting found photography for a few years now, mainly from flea markets.

                                                                                    Otherwise, things that might be considered — if I were more inclined for self-reflection — extra jobs, but which I do (mostly) pro bono and/or for the fun of it:

                                                                                    I’ve been involved in a yearly event that tries to raise awareness around reintegrating the river passing through the city into the urban fabric, and we’ve just wrapped up our fourth edition.

                                                                                    I help run a tiny art gallery where we host established and upcoming artists. I occasionally chip in with web development things for local cultural institutions.

                                                                                    (I have found that these types of organizations can always use a bit of help, and just making yourself available will set you up for rewarding work.)

                                                                                    Finally, I can’t get enough of thinking about code and systems, so I’m always tinkering with some stupid little open-source project.

                                                                                    I’d like to get good at writing, archiving, and making books but I tend to start too many things at once so I’m delaying these indefinitely :-)

                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                      I think digitizing books is an incredible hobby! You might be interested in this project: Memory of the World.

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        Wow, I love it. Thanks for sharing!

                                                                                        I’m still tweaking my toolchain for digitizing the books. I have most of the parts for my guerrilla kit: Scannable on iOS + Google Vision API (because other OCR solutions are just terrible at Romanian text, especially with the older glyphs with which the language was written at the time most books I want to parse were written). Now I just need to wrap up the glue that sends a batch of images to the API and collates the results. (WIP here: https://github.com/llll-org/vizor)

                                                                                        P.S. If anyone has any references for open-source crowdsourced annotation (e.g. highlighting blocks on an image and manually typing in what you see), I’d appreciate the links. I know I have some buried in my bookmarks, but lately I’ve found that my searching / digging skills fail me more consistently than I remember — and switching to DuckDuckGo doesn’t quite help :-)

                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                          The people at Zooniverse have a couple of projects regarding highlighting and transcribing texts, but I don’t know the requisites to add a new project

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            Ah yes, this sounds like the one I was thinking of, but I also know there’s a similar open-source platform. I’ll report back if I find it.

                                                                                          2. 1

                                                                                            This is a semi-pro hardware setup: https://diybookscanner.org/

                                                                                            Jonathan is a great resource.

                                                                                        2. 2

                                                                                          I love old cookbooks. They are amazing documents. When you do digitize them and get them up, do post them here!

                                                                                          When you make books, do you hand bind them?

                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                            Right now I think I can produce a decent digital book and work with the printer to get it published. (Did a couple of small-run ones). But yes, the dream would be to learn how to hand bind them! As for the cookbooks, I’ll let everyone know when I have something public to show, but bear in mind these are in the (old) Romanian language :P

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                                                                                          To whomever downvoted this: I get that the title looks like spam, but the link is more than a low-effort listicle, in my opinion.

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                                                                                            I flagged this as spam as usually lists of things are not good submissions, and normalizing them is a real problem–listicles are virulent for a reason.

                                                                                            If submission discussed best practices and then, by way of example, provided the list. I would’ve upvoted it.

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                                                                                              I concur – it’s a really neat listing of good resources and nice examples. I do think moving it to an actual webpage and dropping the tainted “awesome-” prefix would be prudent. :)

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                                                                                              I listen to a lot of music – all kinds of music. Pop, “contemporary classical”, metal, avant-garde / improvisational, hip-hop, electronic, you name it. I find it mentally stimulating, yet relaxing, and the fairly abstract nature of the art allows me to choose how invested I want to be into listening at any point in time.

                                                                                              Otherwise, I’ll occasionally snap a few photos (but don’t consider it a hobby per se), and I try to keep up with going to the gym. This year, I’ve also started working towards finishing my BSc in Physics.

                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                Yesterday, I wrapped up the first version of cargo-cdo, a tiny utility that checks dependencies in the members of a Cargo workspace and reports any version conflicts. Our workspace is growing, and this should hopefully help keep the dependencies in sync. This week, I’d like to improve its docs a tiny bit, push it to crates.io, and perhaps write a nix expression for the build.

                                                                                                Otherwise, I’ve been reading about the Rust macro system, and I think I’m becoming more and more comfortable with its ways. I find macros neat for abstracting away some repetitive pieces of code, although I’m wondering how much they impact its comprehensibility. Anyone with a bit more Rust experience to shed some light on the limits of use and abuse?

                                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                                  This seems terribly misleading. The README says

                                                                                                  You can add a contact form in your static website like site hosted on Github and able to get response from user.

                                                                                                  …only to require you to deploy a (very dynamic) node.js app… somewhere.

                                                                                                  Of course it would be difficult to send an email from a purely static website without firing up an email client or some SaaS-like thingy, but this seems to be falling short of its promise on a very basic level. I suggest updating the description accordingly.

                                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                                    I went to a state technical school as a young man, majoring in CS, and dropped out two years in due to the tech boom of the early 2000’s when I was offered a job making more money than anyone in my family had ever seen.

                                                                                                    Years later, I decided to go back and finish my degree. A buddy of mine ended up going to WGU and recommended it for busy professionals, and that’s where I ended up.

                                                                                                    Pros:

                                                                                                    • Nonprofit
                                                                                                    • Accredited
                                                                                                    • Competency-based, meaning you can test out of any class whenever you feel you’re ready (or, for some classes, submit a project)
                                                                                                    • Inexpensive (around $3000 per six-month-term, for however many courses you can pack into those six months)

                                                                                                    Cons:

                                                                                                    • The selection of majors is somewhat restricted
                                                                                                    • There’s not a lot of contact with faculty; you definitely need to be self-motivated (there are chats and cohorts and course mentors you can talk to and such, but it’s up to you to reach out to them)
                                                                                                    • The quality of the materials ranges from poor to okay
                                                                                                    • I feel like it didn’t really each me all that much

                                                                                                    So that last point deserves some elaboration: the courses seem very simple. Now, that was looking at them through the lens of decades of practical experience and (arguably obsessive) self-teaching. If I think back to when I was 18-22, they might not have seemed so simple then.

                                                                                                    Also, that second-to-last point should be talked about a bit. The primary learning resources are all fine; they’re the same textbooks and such that you’d get at any university. The lectures are often just video series from one or another professional education organization (that is, not a university/professor, but a professional). There are occasional videos from professors at the university, but (like anything) they vary widely in quality.

                                                                                                    There’s a heavy focus on practice and less on theory: as part of your degree you get various certifications; the certification is, in effect, your “final exam” for the course.

                                                                                                    The fact that most (but not all) classes have a “final exam” that you can take at any time and be done with is a double-edged sword. I remember the “introduction to programming” class that I was required to take didn’t actually require that you write any code: it was just a final exam where you read some Python code and said what it would do or find errors in it, etc. (There are other courses where you do have to submit relatively large programs as your final project; these were all in Java IIRC.)

                                                                                                    All-in-all, I’m not super-duper-satisfied. I didn’t need a degree for my career; it was almost entirely just to check a box. If you just “need a degree” for whatever reason, and you’ve got a busy life, WGU is a good bet. It’s cheap, it’s fast, it’s accredited, and it’s non-profit. In terms of return on investment, well…it’s cheap and it’s accredited so it’s great bang-for-buck. In terms of education, it’s…well, I didn’t learn anything.

                                                                                                    (I’m in the process of deciding if I want to go get a second bachelor’s from a more prestigious school, treating the WGU bachelor’s as essentially just “getting the last of my pre-reqs out of the way,” but it’s a lot of time and effort.)

                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                      Thank you, that was most helpful! I believe we’re in a similar position: I don’t require a degree for my career, but I would love to have some sort of academic credentials since they do give you some options that would be very hard to get otherwise (academia, many research positions, the warm and fuzzy feeling of completion etc.).

                                                                                                      Unfortunately, WGU doesn’t seem to admit people who don’t live in the US or Canada. Intuitively, I’m aware that the lack of contact means a lot of the success depends on the amount of work of the student, and that motivation is the key. Regarding the variation in quality, I’ve found that to be the case with my brick-and-mortar university as well; certain teachers are simply bad and certain classes are simply not well thought out, and I guess that just becomes much more visible with distance learning.

                                                                                                      I appreciate you sharing your experience!

                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                      Unfortunately I don’t have any experience with distance learning, but I do have experience with a degree in physics.

                                                                                                      I got my MPhys 4 years ago and the contact hours were high (for the UK, compared to people doing softer sciences) at around 25 - 27 hours a week. This was pretty valuable time, with a lecturer to ask questions and explain the concepts that I had trouble with.

                                                                                                      I don’t know how much “contact” time you get with distance learning courses, but I found it very useful / vital for me personally. Plus the lab based modules were pretty useful.

                                                                                                      As for how people look at it - I’m just about to finish a PhD and start a postdoc - I’m pretty sure if you have the grade (2:1 or higher) and have the experience / do well in the interview it would count the same.

                                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                                        Thanks a bunch! My previous studies have been towards an MEd in Physics and Computer Science. Going back to that would be an option, but since the studies don’t affect my work and my interests lie elsewhere, I am considering alternatives.

                                                                                                        I’ve done a fair amount of lab work, and I do agree it’s really useful! I’ll certainly miss that, but I’m hoping I’ll still remember a thing or two from my labs a few years back. :) As far as other contact time is concerned, from what I could gather, you usually get assigned a tutor who you can contact in case you get stuck or need further clarification, which sounds like a reasonable compromise.

                                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                                        I used to write a fair amount; there’s one advice I remember reading that resonated with me, and one I try to keep in mind whenever I write a non-trivial amount of text: clearly and religiously separate the writing and editing phases of your work. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the source, but I believe it’s a fairly common pattern among writers.

                                                                                                        During the writing phase, the idea is to get as much of one’s thoughts out on the paper, regardless of style, grammar, vocabulary and miscellaneous nitpicking. If you, the writer can understand it, it’s good enough: get the general idea out of your system, and move on. You can start with an outline, as this article helpfully suggests, but at the end, you should have complete sentences staring at you, and probably have a slight panic attack because you think they completely suck.

                                                                                                        After the writing phase is done, go back through the text and try to look at it through the eyes of an editor. Is it interesting to read through? Is it well balanced? Are the paragraphs of approximately equal length? Are you repeating certain words too much, and can you replace those with a decent alternative? Are there any issues with grammar or spelling? Fix all of those meticulously, and repeat the process.

                                                                                                        I used to start writing, and then obsess over every sentence as I wrote it, which led to spending hours in front of a text editor only to barely write a paragraph of text. This helped a lot, and it works (on my machine(tm)) equally well for both technical and non-technical writing.

                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                          I have a bunch of org files which are synced to my phone with SyncThing. These cover everything from my personal & work projects to chores like apartment cleaning & shopping. Most of these files are loaded into the agenda view, which is the primary way I consume these lists.

                                                                                                          On my phone, I use Orgzly to read and, to a lesser extent, write to the files. I also export my agenda to an ICS file which is loaded into my Google Calendar for reminders.

                                                                                                          I keep a reasonably detailed plan of my days in Google Calendar. I usually divide my day into a few slots for gym, work, and meals, as well as a few unallotted slots for downtime, reading, music & co. I find this helps me avoid procrastination, and keeps me focused on the task at hand.

                                                                                                          One of the things on my meta-to-do list is replacing Google Calendar with a self-hosted solution.

                                                                                                          1. 5

                                                                                                            I guess it’s not much use after-the-fact, but I believe we have reasonable solutions for these issues nowadays:

                                                                                                            • Docker, and the official GCC image. If clang is a hard requirement, it should be fairly easy to find an image based on a distribution with a fairly recent version of LLVM in its repositories and quickly build on top of it.
                                                                                                            • the Nix package manager, which seems to have a working build of Clang 6 for Darwin.

                                                                                                            Nix has particularly helped me keep my dev dependencies out of my base system, and is a nifty tool to have under your belt.

                                                                                                            1. 3

                                                                                                              Hey, I should check out Nix. I keep hearing about it. Thanks!

                                                                                                              The docker solution I’m pretty skeptical about. First, this would require me to run my application inside docker (right?) Secondly, docker for mac keeps eating up disk space. It’s SO annoying and last time I checked it was a won’t fix. I #deletedocker from my mac.

                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                If you build your binary through Docker, you either have to run it in a container, or you can link it statically, assuming you run Linux on your host OS. I understand how both options aren’t very appealing to you.

                                                                                                                Nix is a really useful collection of software. I have no first hand experience with it on OS X, but anecdotally, it works fine. Do check it out!

                                                                                                            1. 13

                                                                                                              Here’s the full text for anyone that doesn’t have an account: https://i.imgur.com/6iUWOzf.png


                                                                                                              Saying goodbye to Slack’s IRC and XMPP gateways

                                                                                                              As Slack has evolved over the years, we’ve built features and capabilities — like Shared Channels, Threads, and emoji reactions (to name a few) — that the IRC and XMPP gateways aren’t able to handle. Our priority is to provide a secure and high-quality experience across all platforms, and so the time has come to close the gateways.

                                                                                                              We know this may affect your workflow in ways that are frustrating or disruptive, and we’re here to help and answer questions. Thank you in advance for making this transition with us.

                                                                                                              Please note that the gateways will be closed according to the following schedule:

                                                                                                              • March 6, 2018: No longer available to newly-created workspaces
                                                                                                              • April 3, 2018: Removed from workspaces where they’re not in use
                                                                                                              • May 15, 2018: Closed for all remaining workspaces

                                                                                                              If your workspace currently uses gateways, your experience won’t change until May 15th. But we encourage you to prepare for the transition soon. Feel free to contact our support team for help.

                                                                                                              Accessibility & screen reading

                                                                                                              We are focused on making Slack accessible to all people. Over the past year, we’ve made great progress in improving both the keyboard and screen reading experiences in Slack. We know many users have been relying on IRC and XMPP clients for a more accessible experience — but our goal is to build all of the accessibility features you need directly into Slack.

                                                                                                              Navigating Slack by keyboard: In addition to Slack’s keyboard shortcuts and basic keyboard accessibility, you can now work in Slack using our new, more efficient navigation model.

                                                                                                              Using a screen reader in Slack: We’ve also been improving the screen reader experience. Here’s what you’ll find:

                                                                                                              All UI elements are accessible by keyboard and functional with a screen reader We’ve improved our UI labeling & naming, including ARIA landmarks Interactions like the message input autocomplete have also been enhanced with ARIA We’ve improved the virtual and focus navigation experience for reading messages Message content, states (e.g. stars, pins, etc.) and actions (e.g. reply, react) are fully perceivable These changes are just the beginning of our accessibility journey. We’ll be releasing further improvements in the near future!

                                                                                                              Creative uses of gateways

                                                                                                              Although the gateways were never supported as a developer feature, many of you have built useful and creative integrations that rely on them. We recognize removing these gateways may disrupt your work, but we’re hopeful that our Real Time Messaging and Events APIs will meet the majority of your integration & bot needs.

                                                                                                              Many other creative uses of gateways are now supported with full-fledged features right in Slack, like setting per-channel notifications, searching logs, sending email straight to Slack, and more. A quick search in our Help Center is an easy way to see if Slack’s capabilities now cover your use case, or you can reach out to our support team.

                                                                                                              XMPP and IRC Disabled

                                                                                                              Guest accounts are not permitted to use the XMPP and IRC gateways.

                                                                                                              1. 24

                                                                                                                We are focused on making Slack accessible to all people. Over the past year, we’ve made great progress in improving both the keyboard and screen reading experiences in Slack. We know many users have been relying on IRC and XMPP clients for a more accessible experience — but our goal is to build all of the accessibility features you need directly into Slack.

                                                                                                                What if your accessibility reason is because the client is crap?

                                                                                                                1. 17

                                                                                                                  One of my secret powers, using the IRC gateway, was a complete log history. I gather the free tier expires messages after some time or message limit. Twice I’ve gone in to my own logs to recover a conversation we needed to reference.

                                                                                                                  1. 5

                                                                                                                    I’m a big fan of this feature as well. Even though my company has a paid account with access to the entire history through the UI, it’s still way faster and more flexible to just grep through the folder. However, you don’t have to use the IRC gateway – wee-slack will take care of this as well (assuming you use WeeChat, of course).