1. 10

    Nice write up on the OpenStruct object in ruby!

    However, I have to do my due diligence here. For most (all?) cases, using OpenStruct is a terrible anti-pattern. Any OpenStruct object will respond to any method you call on it and if it doesn’t exist, returns nil. This causes uncertainty within the system and makes testing a nightmare.

    As I recommend to most people, you’re better off using a PORO (plain old ruby object)!

    1. 10

      And anima makes it very easy to avoid OpenStruct/Struct.

      1. 1

        Nice! TIL!

      2. 3

        Using OpenStruct can also kill your performance due to effects it has on the global method cache.

        1. 2

          I thought so too, until a friend corrected me: That was fixed several years ago and isn’t still the case.

        2. 2

          Thanks for sharing your precious experience with OpenStruct :-)

          Anyway, the goal of my articles is just to describe a notion as deeply as possible. I prefer to keep a neutral point-of-view because each notion that I describe can be useful in many cases.

          Implementing the notion in real use cases is just a matter of sensitivity for each developer.

          That’s why I’m glad that you share your opinion and your experience with the OpenStruct class here.

          1. 2

            I like reading about all the nooks and crannies about Ruby so your articles are very interesting to me! Thanks for sharing.

            1. 1

              Why do you want that neutral position? One of the things I really love in articles is seeing how people evaluate the benefits and risks of tools like OpenStruct. I get to understand when to use or not use something, learn general strategies useful for other tools. Let the documentation be non-judgemental description, I want experienced opinions. :)

              1. 1

                Actually my articles are made to demystify a misunderstood or opaque notion. By doing so, developers can take the decision to apply the notion or not by knowing all the aspects of it.

                Also, this enhances their general culture about the language.

                After, your point of view is also correct. Maybe, in a near future I’ll start to share my experience with the notions that I treat in my articles.

                Thanks for the feedback. It’s really appreciated :-)

          1. 7

            I wondered how long I’d have to read into it before the Scala in-fighting started. Turns out its line 3:

            This book uses Scalaz 7.2, the most popular, stable, principled and comprehensive Functional Programming framework for Scala.

            Shots fired at https://typelevel.org/cats/ !!!

            1. 3

              Awesome idea! I’ve made an account.

              I had a similar idea for https://quasa.rs, but narrowly focused on Meteorology, Astrophysics, and Atmospheric Sciences.

              1. 2

                Yeah saw your site before!

              1. 11

                I would like to request that people don’t post “we” as a hyperlink, without saying who “we” is. It’s much easier to read through the various posts that way. Please put the name of the company as the name of the link, or at least right next to it.

                1. 1

                  When I get an email from a recruiter that does not mention the company name it goes into my junk folder.

                  1. 1

                    I usually just ask for more detail. 90% of the time they move on, but 10% of the time it elicits useful information.

                1. 3

                  So many SF jobs… really hoping to get out of the bay.

                  1. 1

                    The tone of this article made it very hard to take the author seriously.

                    That said, make an educated choice whether to use a framework or not. I don’t think it’s so black and white.

                    1. 4

                      There’s also feed.json that serves the same purpose but using JSON instead of XML

                      https://jsonfeed.org

                      1. 20

                        In my opinion, jsonfeed is doing active harm. We need standardization, not fragmentation.

                        1. 2

                          Well as long as people are just adding an additional feed, xml/rss + json. You can have two links in your headers. Over the course of time, all readers will probably add support and then it shouldn’t matter which format your RSS feed is in. That’s kinda how we got to where we are today.

                        2. 10

                          How far spread is support for this in feed readers? RSS and Atom have a very broad support among feed readers, so unless there’s a compelling reason a working and widely supported standard shouldn’t be replaced just because of taste.

                        1. 5

                          I love these kinds of things. Thanks for asking!

                          Right around Y2K, I worked as the “Technical Coordinator” at a “Regional Development Authority” in Cornwallis Park, Nova Scotia, Canada. I got to do what so many Silicon Valley folks have falsely claimed to do, and it was glorious: I got to make the world a better place, using technology.

                          An RDA in Canada is an organisation that receives money from different levels of government and has a mandate to promote development in the region. This takes the shape of providing free education, encouraging businesses to move there, assisting existing businesses with hiring additional staff, and related activities. Because of some other programs, my particular RDA (the WVDA) had an additional mandate to improve the lives of residents and businesses using technology.

                          I got to do what so many Silicon Valley bros have claimed to do, but never have: I made the world a better place using technology. Looking back, it was probably the best opportunity of my career, and I’ve had many.

                          The many projects that I worked on in that short time period is absolutely staggering, as I think about it now. I was the only person in my department for most of my time there, and for the rest I was the more experienced and skilled one of two.

                          • web applications (we didn’t call them that then) for local artisans to display and sell their wares, for restaurants to post information and menus, and for listing events in the local area
                          • provided tourist information, accommodation information and booking, and an online business directory
                          • free email accounts to the local residents, as well as web hosting and technical services for local people and businesses
                          • “wireless last mile” to deliver broadband to previously unconnected homes and businesses
                          • custom OS and software for touch-screen kiosks that were installed in libraries, tourist bureaus, and malls, which were many people’s only way to access the internet

                          I can honestly say that in my approximately three years there, I made the world a better place. There are still fingerprints of my work there in that place, and I miss doing work like that. I haven’t done work like that since, and gotten paid for it.

                          It wasn’t all roses: my bosses were absolutely rotten with corruption. One got fired for giving large contracts to his friends to do nothing. Another was getting invoices for services and products that were never delivered from businesses owned by their friends and family. Another was doing that, and also using her expense account to expense trips and conferences she never went to. Eventually, years after I left, the entire agency got shut down and each government decided to run their own smaller operation themselves because of these things. But it doesn’t mean that we didn’t do great things at the time.

                          I should really write more details about my experiences, because it really was something amazing, and I’m quite proud of it. Most of the web applications are still usable via the internet archive.

                          1. -3

                            I got to do what so many Silicon Valley folks have falsely claimed to do, and it was glorious: I got to make the world a better place, using technology.

                            I got to do what so many Silicon Valley bros have claimed to do, but never have: I made the world a better place using technology.

                            Cornwallis Park is a rural community in Annapolis County, Nova Scotia, Canada. As of 2016, the population is 479

                            Easy there, Genghis Khan.

                            1. 2

                              Easy there, Genghis Khan.

                              Not sure what you’re trying to imply here.

                              1. 2

                                I think he’s (sarcastically) saying it’s a pretty small chunk of the world. Like I could give a homeless person a sandwich, making the world a better place, but I wouldn’t expect a medal for it. Not my criticism.

                          1. 2

                            I haven’t had a job I’ve liked, tbh. If it didn’t suck, would it still be a job?

                            1. 1

                              At the risk of hardcore gamers telling me to “GIT GUD,” modern games are way too hard for me. I have unfinished copies of XCOM2, Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, God of War, and Celeste to name a few. All because I found them too hard and eventually grew bored at being stuck in the same spot.

                              I think we’ve overcompensated for a vocal minority of hardcore gamers after a peak of easy games in the mid-aughties.

                              1. 1

                                I just ripped out a lot of ScalaCheck tests from my codebase. It was not worth the hassle, and I dislike non-determinism.

                                1. 9

                                  I write Scala for my main job and I find it very hard to recommend. This talk is a hopeful, but brutally honest about some of Scala’s shortcomings. Good watch 👍

                                  1. 2

                                    Are there other reasons, not covered by the talk, that make it hard for you to recommend Scala?

                                    Also, is your workplace planning on sticking with Scala?

                                    1. 2

                                      Are there other reasons, not covered by the talk, that make it hard for you to recommend Scala?

                                      In one word (and I’m cheating a bit here because it was alluded to in the talk), sbt. I feel like it’s almost every other day where I’m debugging some dependency issue.

                                      Also, is your workplace planning on sticking with Scala?

                                      That’s kind of a controversial topic at the moment. We have one service written in it, so we have to maintain a Scala service at the very minimum.

                                  1. 6

                                    Government jobs tend to be 40 hours or less. State government in my state has a 37.5 hour standard. There is very occasional off-hours work, but overtime is never required except during emergencies – and not “business emergencies”, but, like, natural disasters.

                                    1. 8

                                      I’m surprised that tech workers turn up their nose at government jobs. Sure, they pay less, but the benefits are amazing! And they really don’t pay too much less in the scheme of things.

                                      How many private sector tech jobs have pensions? I bet not many.

                                      1. 9

                                        I work in a city where 90% of the folks showing up to the local developer meetup are employed by the city or the state.

                                        It’s taken a lot of getting used to being the only person in the room who doesn’t run Windows.

                                        1. 4

                                          I feel like this is pretty much the same for me (aside from the meetup bit).

                                          Have you ever worked with windows or have you been able to stay away from it professionally?

                                          1. 3

                                            I used it on and off for a class for about a year in 2003 at university but have been able to avoid it other than that.

                                          2. 1

                                            Yeah. I hadn’t used Windows since Win 3.1, until I started working for the state (in the Win XP era). I still don’t use it at home, but all my dayjob work is on Windows, and C#.

                                          3. 5

                                            they pay less

                                            Not sure about this one. When you speak about pay, you also have to count all the advantages going with it. In addition, they usually push you out at 5pm so your hourly rate is very close to the contractual one.

                                            1. 3

                                              Most people who are complaining that they pay less are the tech workers who hustle hard in Silicon Valley or at one of the big N companies. While government jobs can pay really well and have excellent value especially when considered pay/hours and benefits like pensions, a Google employee’s ceiling is going to be way higher.

                                              There’s a subreddit where software engineers share their salaries and it seems like big N companies can pay anything from $300k–700k USD when you consider their total package. No government job is going to match that.

                                            2. 3

                                              Do you work in the public sector? What’s it like?

                                              1. 13

                                                I do.

                                                Pros: hours, and benefits. Less trend-driven development and red queen effect. Less age discrimination (probably more diversity in general, at least compared to Silicon Valley).

                                                Cons: low pay, hard to hire and retain qualified people. Bureaucracy can be galling, but I imagine that’s true in large private sector organizations, too.

                                                We’re not that behind the times here; we’ve avoided some dead-ends by being just far enough behind the curve to see stuff fail before we can adopt it.

                                                Also, depending on how well your agency’s goals align with your values, Don’t Be Evil can actually be realistic.

                                                1. 6

                                                  I will say, I once did a contract with the Virginia DOT during Peak Teaparty. Never before in my life have I seen a more downtrodden group. Every single person I talked to was there because they really believed in their work, and every single one of them was burdened by the reality that their organization didn’t and was cutting funding, cutting staff, and cutting… everything.

                                                  They were some of the best individuals I ever worked with, but within the worst organization I’ve ever interacted with.

                                                  Contrast that to New York State- I did a shitton of work for a few departments there. These were just folks who showed up to get things done. They were paid well, respected, and accomplished what they could within the confines of their organization. They also were up for letting work knock off at 2PM.

                                                  1. 2

                                                    Also, depending on how well your agency’s goals align with your values, Don’t Be Evil can actually be realistic.

                                                    Agreed. There’s no such thing as an ethical corporation.

                                                    Do you mind sharing the minimum qualifications of a candidate at your institution? How necessary is a degree?

                                                    I’m asking for a friend 😏

                                                    1. 2

                                                      What about B corps?

                                                      1. 1

                                                        No, not even them.

                                                        When you think about what “profit” is (ie taking more than you give), I think it’s really hard to defend any for-profit organization. Somebody has to lose in the exchange. If it’s not the customers, it’s the employees.

                                                        1. 5

                                                          That’s a pretty cynical view of how trade works & not one I generally share. Except under situations of effective duress where one side has lopsided bargaining leverage over the other (e.g. monopolies, workers exploited because they have no better options), customers, employees and shareholders can all benefit. Sometimes this has negative externalities but not always.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            Then I guess we must agree to disagree 🤷🏻‍♂️

                                                          2. 2

                                                            Profit is revenue minus expenses. Your definition, taking more than you give, makes your conclusion a tautology. i.e., meaningless repetition.

                                                            Reciprocity is a natural law: markets function because both parties benefit from the exchange. As a nod to adsouza’s point: fully-informed, warrantied, productive, voluntary exchange makes markets.

                                                            Profit exists because you can organize against risk. Due to comparative advantage, you don’t even have to be better at it than your competitors. Voluntary exchange benefits both weaker and stronger parties.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              Profit is revenue minus expenses. Your definition, taking more than you give, makes your conclusion a tautology. i.e., meaningless repetition.

                                                              I mean, yes, I was repeating myself. I wasn’t concluding anything: I was merely rephrasing “profit.” I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here aside from fishing for a logical fallacy.

                                                              a tautology. i.e., meaningless repetition.

                                                              Intentionally meta?

                                                              Reciprocity is a natural law

                                                              Yup. No arguments here. However, reciprocity is not profit. In fact, that’s the very distinction I’m trying to make. Reciprocity is based on fairness and balance, that what you get should be equal to what you give. Profit is expecting to get back more than what you put in.

                                                              Profit exists because you can organize against risk.

                                                              Sure, but not all parties can profit simultaneously. There are winners and losers in the world of capitalism.

                                                            2. 1

                                                              So, if I watch you from afar and realize that you’ll be in trouble within seconds, come to your aid, and save your life (without much effort on my side) in exchange for $10, who’s the one losing in this interaction? Personally, I don’t think there’s anything morally wrong with playing positive-sum games and sharing the profits with the other parties.

                                                          3. 1

                                                            For an entry-level developer position, we want either a batchelor’s degree in an appropriate program, with no experience required, an associate’s degree and two years of experience, or no degree and four years of experience. The help-desk and technician positions probably require less for entry level but I’m not personally acquainted with their hiring process.

                                                            1. 2

                                                              I would fall into the last category. Kind of rough being in the industry for 5 years and having to take an entry level job because I don’t have a piece of paper, but that’s how it goes.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                For us, adding an AS (community college) to that 5 years of experience would probably get you into a level 2 position if your existing work is good. Don’t know how well that generalizes.

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  Okay cool! I have about an AS in credits from a community college I’d just need to graduate officially. Though, at that point, I might as well get a BS.

                                                                  Thanks for helping me in my research :)

                                                        2. 4

                                                          I don’t, but I’m very envious of my family members who do.

                                                          One time my cousin (works for the state’s Department of Forestry) replied to an email on Sunday and they told him to take 4 hours off Monday to balance it off.

                                                          That said, from a technological perspective I’d imagine it would be quite behind in times, and moves very slowly. If you’re a diehard agile manifesto person (I’m not) I probably wouldn’t recommend it.

                                                          EDIT: I guess it’s really what you value more. In the public sector, you get free time at the expense of money. In the private sector, vice versa. I can see someone who chases the latest technologies and loves to code all day long being miserable there, but for people who just code so they can live a fulfilling life outside of work it could be a good fit.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      OpenSuSE and Mandrake Linux were my first distributions. Good times.

                                                      1. 5

                                                        Going to see the incredibles 2!

                                                        1. 2

                                                          Same! Really hyped, it’s been too long since the first one.

                                                        1. 11

                                                          My first suggestion would be to install VirtualBox, put your distro of choice inside that, and then run it full screen most of the time.

                                                          You could also try the Windows 10 Linux stuff. I haven’t tried it (because I don’t use windows) but those who do say it is pretty great.

                                                          Cygwin would be a very, very remote third. I used it once in $corporate_office_job and the best thing I could say about it was that it was better than nothing.

                                                          Worst case, if your manager can’t or won’t provide you with the tools you need to do your job, you need to move on. Never stay long in a job you don’t love, that’s how you lose your soul.

                                                          1. 6

                                                            My first suggestion would be to install VirtualBox, put your distro of choice inside that, and then run it full screen most of the time.

                                                            This is my life right now. It is decidedly second class; all the corporate-mandated bloatware is still there wasting utterly ludicrous amounts of memory and CPU time, but at least I don’t have to look at it and I can use a decent window manager and terminal environment. I certainly consider this preferable to the Bash-on-Windows features (and far, far better than Cygwin).

                                                            1. 1

                                                              That was my choice for years, too. Most of the times, I ssh‘d into that machine using putty or another terminal emulator. They are not good but you can get the job done. SSH’ing-in also circumvents any input lag, too. Plus side: suspend and resume would work flawlessly with Windows.

                                                              Anyways, I switched jobs since then. Doing Linux only now. Macs serve as ridiculously expensive SSH terminals now. No more Windows.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                Have you noticed significant input lag when running linux fullscreen? Whenever I’ve tried it it’s been too laggy to be usable, but I was running on an AMD FX 8350.

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  My 2 cents - a few years ago I had a powerful laptop (one of the WS Lenovos, maybe 16-32GB RAM, i7, etc.) and I tried VMWare (paid edition - company paid for it), Microsoft Hyper-V, and VirtualBox. I could never get rid of, or stop being bothered by, input lag.

                                                              2. 6

                                                                Can’t install VirtualBox. This is a workspace, think something like remote desktop. See above for a link.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  You could also try the Windows 10 Linux stuff. I haven’t tried it (because I don’t use windows) but those who do say it is pretty great.

                                                                  WSL is good, but not great. I’ve been using it semi-seriously on my home machine for the past year and half and it’s better than it was, but I’m consistently disappointed in all the terminal emulators. The only setup I’m happy with is running urxvt on Xming. You will be disappointed in file system speed, but that seems to be a Windows thing regardless of WSL.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    Have you tried ConsEmu? https://conemu.github.io/

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      I have. I… do not like it.

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        I suspect one of the fundamental problems at play here is the fact that many of these tools want to be able to embed things like CMD.EXE or PowerShell and don’t have the native characteristics we associate with UNIX terminals.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          Possibly, but I just found ConEmu to be hideously ugly. Personal preference thing, really. Other than its grotesque UI, it seems like a capable terminal emulator.

                                                                          1. 1

                                                                            Ah. Yeah. I’m not so concerned about that :) When you’re trying to make a home in the malarial swamps, first you ensure that you have shelter, then you worry about whether the drapes match the tablecloth :)

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  $WORK: The project I’m on is behind schedule by a significant margin and review season is in full swing. It is not a fun time to be in industry.

                                                                  $HOME: Very seriously considering leaving industry for academia for good. First, however, I need to get accepted into a university, so I’ve started a list of colleges to apply for. Next on my agenda will be deciding whether to major in Physics or Computer Science.

                                                                  1. 19

                                                                    As with most of Gary Bernhardt’s writing, I loved this piece. I read it several times over, as I find his writing often deeply interesting. To me, this is a great case study in judgement through attempting to apply Americanized principles to speech between two non-Americans (a Pole and a Finn) communicating in a second language.

                                                                    There are several facets at play here as I see it:

                                                                    1. There’s a generational difference between older hackers and newer ones. For older hackers, the code is all that matters, niceties be damned. Newer hackers care about politeness and being treated well. Some of this is a product of money coming in since the 90s, and people who never would’ve been hackers in the past are hackers now.

                                                                    2. Linux is Linus’ own project. He’s not going to change. He’s not going to go away. If you don’t like the way he behaves, fork it. Run your own Linux fork the way you want, and you’ll see whether or not the niceties matters. Con Kolivas did this for years.

                                                                    3. There are definitely cultural issues at play. While Linus has a lot of exposure to American culture, he’s Finnish. Finnish people are not like Americans. I find the American obsession with not upsetting people often infuriatingly two-faced, and I’m British. I have various friends in other countries who find the much more minor but still present British obsession with not upsetting people two-faced, and they’re right.

                                                                    Go to Poland, fuck up and people will tell you. Go to Germany, do something wrong and people will correct you. Go to Finland, do something stupid getting in the way of a person’s job and probably they’ll swear at you in Finnish. I’m not saying this is right, or wrong, it’s just the rest of the world works differently to you, and while you can scream at the sea about perceived injustices, the sea will not change it’s tides for you.

                                                                    Yes Linus is being a jerk, but it’s not like this is an unknown quantity. Linus doesn’t owe you kindness. You don’t owe Linus respect either. If his behaviour is that important to you, don’t use Linux.

                                                                    1. 16

                                                                      Finnish people are not like Americans. I find the American obsession with not upsetting people often infuriatingly two-faced […]

                                                                      • I think this is a false comparison of some sort. Americans worrying doesn’t say anything useful about Finns.
                                                                      • I emphatically disagree that Linus is representative of the social culture around me in Finland.
                                                                      • Nonviolent, clear communication is not the same thing as avoiding difficult subjects. It’s the opposite!
                                                                      1. 5

                                                                        I think this is a false comparison of some sort. Americans worrying doesn’t say anything useful about Finns.

                                                                        In my experience of dealing with Finns, they don’t sugar coat things. When something is needed to be said, the Finns I’ve interacted with are extremely direct and to the point, compared to some other cultures. Would you say that’s fair?

                                                                        I emphatically disagree that Linus is representative of the social culture around me in Finland.

                                                                        I didn’t say that he’s representative of Finnish culture. He’s a product of it. He wasn’t raised American. He didn’t grow up immersed in American culture and values. It would be unrealistic to expect him to hold or conform to American values.

                                                                        Nonviolent, clear communication is not the same thing as avoiding difficult subjects. It’s the opposite!

                                                                        Definitely! Out of interest, what are your thoughts on this in terms of applicability to his communication style? I’m fairly certain there’s a general asshole element to his style, but I wonder how much (if any) is influenced by this.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          He didn’t grow up immersed in American culture and values. It would be unrealistic to expect him to hold or conform to American values.

                                                                          As an Italian, I can say that after the WWII, US did a great job to spread their culture in Europe.
                                                                          Initially to counter the “Bolsheviks” influx, later as a carrier for their products.

                                                                          They have been largely successful.
                                                                          Indeed, I love Joplin just like I love Vivaldi, Mozart and Beethoven! :-)
                                                                          But we have thousands years of variegate history, so we are not going to completely conform anyway. After all, we are proud of our deep differences, as they enrich us.

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            At the risk of getting into semantics, Finland was much more neutral post WWII than other European nations due to realpolitik.

                                                                            Also, there is something to say for Italian insults, by far some of the finest and most perverse, blasphemous poetry I’ve ever had the pleasure of experiencing. It’s the sort of level of filth that takes thousands of years to age well :)

                                                                            1. 3

                                                                              Actually the Invettiva is a literary gender on its own, that date back to ancient Greek.

                                                                              In Italian, there are several passages of Dante’s Divina Commedia that belong to the genre and are spectacular examples of the art you describe.

                                                                              But since we are talking about jerk, I will quote Marziale, from memory: 2000 years later we still memorize his lines at school

                                                                              Os et labras tibi lingit, Menneia, catellus.
                                                                              Non miror, merdas si libet esse cani.

                                                                              Nothing Linus can say will ever compete! ;-)

                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                Os et labras tibi lingit, Menneia, catellus. Non miror, merdas si libet esse cani.

                                                                                Google translates this as

                                                                                Your mouth and lip licking, Menneas, catelle. I am not surprised, merda, if you like to be for the dog.

                                                                                Which I assume is horribly wrong. Is it possible to translate for us non-worldly folks who only know English? :-)

                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                  The translation from Latin is roughly

                                                                                  The little dog licks your mouth and lips.
                                                                                  Not a surprise: dogs like to eat shits.

                                                                                  It’s one of Martial’s Epygrams.
                                                                                  Not even one of the worse!

                                                                                  It’s worth noticing how nothing else remains of Menneia. And the same can be said of several people targeted by his insults.

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    Hah, that’s great. Thank you!

                                                                      2. 9

                                                                        speech between two non-Americans (a Pole and a Finn) communicating in a second language.

                                                                        How is that relevant? On my current team, we have developers from Argentina, Bosnia, Brazil, China, India, Korea, and Poland, as well as several Americans (myself included). Yet as far as I can recall from the year that I’ve been on this team so far, all of our written communication has been civil. And even in spoken communication, as far as I can recall, nobody uses profanity to berate one another. To be fair, this is in a US-based corporate environment. Still, I don’t believe English being a second language is a reason to not be civil in written communication.

                                                                        1. 7

                                                                          You’re comparing Linux, a Finnish-invented, international, volunteer-based non-corporate project to a US-based corporate environment, and judging Linus’ communications against your perception of a US-based corporate environment. You’re doing the same thing as the author, projecting your own values onto something that doesn’t share those values.

                                                                          Additionally, by putting the words I’ve said, and following that up with a reference to a US-based corporate environment, you’ve judged the words of a non-American who wasn’t speaking to you by your own US-based corporate standards.

                                                                          I hope that helps you understand my point more clearly. My point isn’t that Linus does or doesn’t act an asshole (he does), but that expecting non-Americans to adhere to American values, standards or norms is unrealistic at best, and cultural colonialism at worst.

                                                                        2. 8

                                                                          For older hackers, the code is all that matters, niceties be damned. [..]
                                                                          Some of this is a product of money coming in since the 90s, and people who never would’ve been hackers in the past are hackers now.

                                                                          No, people who would’ve never been hackers in the past, are not hackers now either.
                                                                          And hackers have always cared about more than code. Hacking has always been a political act.

                                                                          Linus is not a jerk, his behaviour is pretty deliberate. He does not want to conform.
                                                                          He is not much different from Dijkstra, Stallman or Assange.

                                                                          Today, cool kids who do not understand what hacking is, insult hackers while calling themselves hackers.

                                                                          Guess what? Hackers do care about your polite corporate image as much as they do care about dress code.

                                                                          There are definitely cultural issues at play.

                                                                          Not an issue. It’s a feature! Hackers around the world are different.

                                                                          And we are proud of the differences, because they help us to break mainstream groupthink.

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            Hacking has always been a political act.

                                                                            This is a really interesting idea! I’m seeing this kind of idea more and more these days and I haven’t been able to work out what it means. I guess you don’t mean something as specific as “Hacking has always been in favour of a particular political ideology” nor something as general as “Hacking has always had an effect on reality”. So could you say something more precise about what you mean by that?

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                                                                              This is a good question that is worth of a deep answer. I’ll rush a fast one here, but I might write something more in the near future.

                                                                              All hacks are political, but some are more evidently so. An example is Stallman’s GNU GPL. Actually the whole GNU project is very political. Almost as political as BSDs. Another evidently political hack was done by Cambridge Analytica with Facebook’s user data.

                                                                              The core value of hackers activity is curiosity: hackers want to learn. We value freedom and sharing as a mean to get more knowledge for the humanity.

                                                                              As such, hacking is always political: its goal is always to affect (theoretically, to improve) the community in one way or another.

                                                                              Challenging laws or authorities is something that follows naturally from such value, but it’s not done to get power or profit, just to learn (and show) something new. This shows how misleading is who distinguish hats’ colours: if you are an hacker you won’t have problems to violate stupid laws to learn and/or share some knowledge, be it a secret military cablage, how to break a DRM system or how to modify a game console: it’s not the economical benefit you are looking for, but the knowledge. The very simple fact that some knowledge is restricted, forbidden or simply unexplored, is a strong incentive for an hacker to try to gain it, using her knowledge and creativity.

                                                                              But even the most apparently innocent hack is political!
                                                                              See Rust, Go, Haskell or Oberon: each with its own vision of how and who should program and of what one should expect from a software.
                                                                              See HTTP browsers: very political tools that let strangers from a different state run code (soon assembly-like) on your pc (ironically with your consent!).
                                                                              See Windows, Debian GNU/Linux or OpenBSD: each powerful operating systems which their own values and strong political vision (yes, even OpenBSD).
                                                                              See ESR appropriation of the jergon file (not much curiosity here actually, just a pursuit for power)!

                                                                              Curiosity is not the only value of an hacker, but all hackers share such value.

                                                                              Now, this is also a value each hacker express in a different way: I want everyone to become an hacker, because I think this would benefit the whole humanity. Others don’t want to talk about the political responsibility of hacking because they align with the regime they live in (be it Silicon Valley, Raqqa, Moscow or whatever), and politically aware hackers might subvert it.

                                                                              But even if you don’t want to acknowledge such responsibility, if you hack, you are politically active, for better or worse.

                                                                              That’s also the main difference between free software and open source software, for example: free software fully acknowledge such ethical (and thus political) responsibility, open source negate it.

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                                                                                Hacking has always been a political act.

                                                                                So if I understand you correctly you are saying something much closer to “Hacking has always attempted to change the world” than “Hacking has always been in support of a political party”.

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                                                                                  Politics is to political parties, what economy is to bankers.

                                                                                  If you read “Hacking has always been a political act” as something related to political parties, you should really delve deeper in the history of politics from ancient Athens onwards.

                                                                                  “Hacking has always attempted to change the world”

                                                                                  No.
                                                                                  This is a neutral statement that could be the perfect motto/tagline for a startup or a war.

                                                                                  Hacking and politics are not neutral. They are both strongly oriented.

                                                                                  Politics is oriented to benefit the polis.
                                                                                  Indeed, lobbying for particular interests is not politics at all.

                                                                                  Hacking is not neutral either.
                                                                                  Hacking is rooted in the international scientific research that was born (at least) in Middle Age.

                                                                                  Hackers solve human problems. For all humans. Through our Curiosity.

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                                                                                    IMO, you’re defining “Hacking is political” to the point of uselessness. Basically, nothing is apolitical in your world. Walking down the street is a political statement on the freedom to walk. Maybe that’s useful in a warzone but in the country I live in it’s a basic right to the point of being part of the environment. I don’t see this really being a meaningful or valuable way to talk about things. I think, instead, it’s probably more useful for people to say “I want to be political and the way I will accomplish this is through hacking”.

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                                                                                      Basically, nothing is apolitical in your world.

                                                                                      Read more carefully.
                                                                                      Every human action can serve the polis, but several human actions are not political.

                                                                                      Hacking, instead, is political in its very essence. Just like Science. And Math.

                                                                                      Maybe it’s the nature of knowledge: an evolutive advantage for the humanity as a whole.
                                                                                      Or maybe it is just an intuitive optimization that serves hackers’ curiosity: the more I share my discoveries, the more brains can build upon them, the more interesting things I can learn from others, the more problem solved, the more time for more challenging problems…

                                                                                      For sure, everyone can negate or refuse the political responsibility that comes from hacking, but such behaviour is political anyway, even if short-sight.

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                                                                                        I just don’t see it. I think you’re claiming real estate on terminology in order to own a perspective. In my opinion, intent is usually the dominating factor, for example murder vs manslaughter (hey, I’m watching crime drama right now). Or a hate crime vs just beating someone up.

                                                                                        You say:

                                                                                        As such, hacking is always political: its goal is always to affect (theoretically, to improve) the community in one way or another.

                                                                                        But I know plenty of people who do what would generally be described as hacking with no such intent. It may be a consequence that the community is affected but often times it’s pretty unlikely and definitely not what they were trying to do.

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                                                                                          Saying that “intent is usually the dominating factor” is a political act. :-)

                                                                                          It’s like talking about FLOSS or FOSS, like if free software and open source were the same thing. It’s not just false, it does not work.

                                                                                          Indeed it creates a whole serie of misunderstanding and contraddictions that are easily dismissed if you simply recognise the difference between the two world.

                                                                                          Now, I agree that Hacking and Engineering overlap.
                                                                                          But they differ more than Murders and Manslaughters.

                                                                                          Because hackers use engineering.

                                                                                          And despite the fact that people abuse all technical terms, we still need proper terms and definitions.
                                                                                          So despite the fact that everyone apparently want to leverage terms like “hacking” and “freedom” in their own marketing, we still need to distinguish hackers from engineers and free software from open source.

                                                                                          And honestly I think it’s easy to take them apart, in both cases.

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                                                                                      Could you help me understand better then your usage of the word “politics” because I don’t think it’s one that I am familiar with.

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                                                                                        Good question! You caught me completely off-guard!
                                                                                        Which is crazy, given my faculty at University was called “Political Science”!

                                                                                        I use the term “Politics” according to the original meaning.

                                                                                        Politics is the human activity that creates, manages and preserves the polis.

                                                                                        Polis was the word ancient Greeks used for the “city”, but by extension we use it for any “community”. In our global, interconnected world, the polis is the whole mankind.

                                                                                        So Politics is the set of activities people do to participate to our collective life.

                                                                                        One of my professors used to define it as “the art of living together”.
                                                                                        Another one, roughly as “the science of managing power for/over a community”.

                                                                                        Anyway, the value of a political act depends on how it make the community stronger or weaker. Thus politics is rarely neutral. And so is hacking.

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                                                                                          Thanks a lot. That does make things clearer. However I am still confused why under the definition of “Politics is the human activity that creates, manages and preserves the polis.” I admit that I don’t understand what ‘Saying that “intent is usually the dominating factor” is a political act’ but at least I now have a framework in which to think about it more.

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                                                                              That’s very good explanation. I might add:

                                                                              • The author has the luxury of not having to worry about people dying because they didn’t get the message.
                                                                              • The author has the luxury of only caring about the message being understood by his own cultural sub-group.

                                                                              Linus has none of these luxuries. He cannot err on the side of being too subtle.

                                                                              This blog post is just another instance of an American that believes that the rest of the world has to revolve around his cultural norms.

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                                                                                I think the author did a pretty good job of editing the message in such a way that it was more clear, more direct, and equally forceful, while ensuring that all of that force was directed in a way relevant to the topic at hand.

                                                                                (Linus has strong & interesting ideas about standardization & particular features. I would love to read an essay about them. The response to a tangentially-related PR is not a convenient place to put those positions: they distract from the topic of the PR, and also make it difficult to find those positions for people who are more interested in them than in the topic of the PR.)

                                                                                The resulting message contains all of the on-topic information, without extraneous crap. It uses strong language and emphasis, but limits it to Linus’s complaints about the actually-submitted code – in other words, the material that should be emphasized. It removes repetition.

                                                                                There is nothing subtle about the resulting message. Unlike the original message, it’s very hard to misread as an unrelated tangent about standardization practices that doesn’t address the reasons for rejecting the PR at all.

                                                                                The core policy being implemented here is not “be nice in order to avoid hurting feelings”, but “remove irrelevant rants in order to focus anger effectively”. This is something I can get behind.

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                                                                                I find the American obsession with not upsetting people often infuriatingly two-faced, and I’m British.

                                                                                […]

                                                                                Go to Poland, fuck up and people will tell you. Go to Germany, do something wrong and people will correct you. Go to Finland, do something stupid getting in the way of a person’s job and probably they’ll swear at you in Finnish.

                                                                                Just wanted to point out that America is a huge country and its population is not homogenous. For example, you could have replaced Poland, Germany, and Finland with “Boston” and still have been correct (though, they’d just swear at you in English 🙂).

                                                                                I think because most American tech comes out of San Francisco/Silicon Valley that it skews what is presented as “Americanized principals” to the international tech community.

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                                                                                  Just wanted to point out that America is a huge country and its population is not homogenous.

                                                                                  Down here in the South, they have an interesting mix of trying to look/sound more civil or being blunt in a way that lets someone know they don’t like them or think they’re stupid. Varies by group, town, and context. There’s plenty of trash talking depending on that. Linus’s style would fit in pretty well with some of them.

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                                                                                  If his behaviour is that important to you, don’t use Linux.

                                                                                  Rather don’t develop the kernel. One can use Linux without having ever heard the nettle Torvalds (the majority I guess)

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                                                                                  please don’t. When learning you make a lot of mistakes. And writing a tutorial with this mistakes doesn’t help other learners when they read this.

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                                                                                    And even if you don’t make mistakes, most people will misunderstand their own process and come up with unhelpful things like monad tutorials: https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/

                                                                                    But now Joe goes and writes a monad tutorial called “Monads are Burritos,” under the well-intentioned but mistaken assumption that if other people read his magical insight, learning about monads will be a snap for them.

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                                                                                      Came here to say something similar to this.

                                                                                      Learn new technology through writing a tutorial about it, but don’t publish it.

                                                                                      There’s so much misinformation by well-intentioned learners.

                                                                                      I’m not trying to diminish the importance of journaling either! Journaling != Tutorials.

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                                                                                        Publishing your tutorial gives it an audience, which means someone may (hopefully!) come along and correct you on your errors. This is invaluable.

                                                                                        I also disagree with this negativity. Make it clear at the top of your tutorial that you’re a beginner and you may not have it all right. But with that caveat, publish away.

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                                                                                          I think we’re discussing the same thing but disagreeing on the semantics of it.

                                                                                          • Belief #1: Sharing how you learned something can be a valuable tool to someone else.
                                                                                          • Belief #2: Tutorials can seem like they’re from a source of authority, so a lack of a disclaimer could be hazardous.
                                                                                          • Belief #3: Imposter syndrome is real. We need to mitigate misinformation, but not at the expense of people being afraid to share.
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                                                                                            Publishing your tutorial gives it an audience, which means someone may (hopefully!) come along and correct you on your errors. This is invaluable.

                                                                                            Absolutely invaluable, but at the very same time, the exposure spreads the misinformation to more readers, potentially doing more harm than good. I don’t think a disclaimer is enough. I think the word “tutorial” implies some authority, unfortunately.

                                                                                            I think a better way is to humbly share a report of your findings so far, with questions and an (as appropriate) admission that you don’t understand everything. Julia Evans is masterful at this style.

                                                                                            As a reader new to the topic, you get the benefit of an explanation of what she currently understands (which is often from a beginner’s mind), and usually some questions to seek answers to on your own. As an expert of the topic, you are invited to share more, or clarify, or correct (and this happens a lot on twitter, and/or HN, etc). But you’re doing so from a place of empathy (you want to be helpful) instead of from a place of disgust (ugh! why is this tutorial so bad!).

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                                                                                        This blog post: a case study in being a jerk to someone who is being a jerk, only since Linus is a “jerk” you get off scott-free. Unsurprisingly, this is written by someone who has never contributed to the Linux kernel and who was uninvolved in the discussion he’s picking apart.

                                                                                        The revised email at the end does lose information. Contrary to what hipsters write blog posts complaining about, 99% of Linus’s emails are cordial. The information that’s lost is the conveyance that this is more important to Linus than most subjects.

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                                                                                          This comment: a case study in being a jerk to someone who is being a jerk to a jerk.

                                                                                          In all seriousness, I don’t believe that Gary Bernhardt is being a jerk at all. There’s a line between being critical of a piece of work and calling someone brain damaged, and hopefully, we all can see the difference.

                                                                                          Aside: I love when people use the word “hipster” to invalidate other viewpoints. Apparently, there are two modes of being: Being Right and Being A Hipster.

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                                                                                            To the unserious comment, I don’t think I was being a jerk. I called him a jerk, which I guess you could argue is a jerk move under any circumstances, but if I’m being a jerk then so is Gary.

                                                                                            To the serious comment, I just want to note that “brain damaged” is a meme among old school hackers which isn’t as strong of a word as you think.

                                                                                            To the aside, I don’t use hipster as an insult or to imply wrongness, but I do use it to invalidate his point. Gary is a Ruby developer. Linus is a kernel developer. The worlds are far removed from each other.

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                                                                                              I’ve put tens of thousands of lines of C into production, including multiple Linux kernel drivers. In one case, those kernel drivers were critical-path code on a device used in strain testing the wings of an airplane that you might’ve flown in by now.

                                                                                              I’m not a stranger to the kernel; I just left that world. Behavior like Linus’ in that email was part of the reason, though far from the only reason.

                                                                                              With all of that said: having written a bunch of systems software shouldn’t be a prerequisite for suggesting that we avoid attacking people personally when they make programming mistakes, or what we suspect are programming mistakes.

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                                                                                                Exactly. I’ve also met many people that do high-performance, embedded, and/or safety-critical code in C that are more polite in these situations. Linus’ attitude is a separate issue from what’s necessary to evaluate and constructively criticize code.

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                                                                                                “brain damaged” is a meme among old school hackers which isn’t as strong of a word as you think.

                                                                                                Yikes. That “meme” is a whole other thing I don’t even care to unpack right now.

                                                                                                I don’t use hipster as an insult or to imply wrongness, but I do use it to invalidate his point. Gary is a Ruby developer. Linus is a kernel developer. The worlds are far removed from each other.

                                                                                                Gotcha. Kernal developer == real old-school hacker. Ruby developer == script kiddie hipster. Are we really still having this argument in 2018?

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                                                                                                  Yikes. That “meme” is a whole other thing I don’t even care to unpack right now.

                                                                                                  “Brain damaged” is a term from back in the Multics days, Linus didn’t make that one up for the occasion. If you’re unfamiliar with the “jargon file” aka hacker dictionary, you can see the history of this particular term here: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/brain-damaged.html

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                                                                                                    Yikes. That “meme” is a whole other thing I don’t even care to unpack right now.

                                                                                                    Listen, cultures are different and culture shock is a thing. I’m in a thread full of foreigners shocked that customs are different elsewhere. You better just take my word for it on “brain damaged” because you clearly aren’t a member of this culture and don’t know what you’re talking about.

                                                                                                    Gotcha. Kernal developer == real old-school hacker. Ruby developer == script kiddie hipster. Are we really still having this argument in 2018?

                                                                                                    How about you quit putting words in my mouth? Do you really need me to explain the world of difference between Ruby development and kernel hacking? In 2018? It’s not a matter of skill. Gary is great at what he does, but it has almost nothing to do with what Linus does. The people who surround Gary and the people who surround Linus are mutually exclusive groups with different cultural norms.

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                                                                                                      You can’t use “it’s our culture” as a panacea; calling someone an idiot, moron etc. is a deliberate attempt to hurt them. I guess if what you’re saying is, “it’s our culture to intentionally hurt the feelings of people who have bad ideas,” well, then we might be at an impasse.

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                                                                                                        The kind of toxic exclusivity and “old school hacker culture” elitism that you’re spouting in this thread is not what I expect to see on Lobsters. It makes me genuinely sad to see somebody saying these things and it also makes me apprehensive of ever being involved in the same project or community as you. Software development today is not what it was 20 –or even 5– years ago. Today it is far more about people than it is about software or technology. You may not like this, but it is the reality.

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                                                                                                          Lobste.rs always had a few vocal people like this in threads. But note that they’re in the minority and generally are not upvoted as much as the people who aren’t elitist, racist, or just generally being a jerk.

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                                                                                                            “old school hacker culture” elitism

                                                                                                            Near 40, I can agree to be called old. But not elitist.
                                                                                                            And I cannot accept to be associated with racist.

                                                                                                            Not all software developers are hackers. Not all hackers are software developers.

                                                                                                            Is stating this “elitism”? Is it “racism”? Is it being “jerk”?
                                                                                                            Or is just using terms properly?

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                                                                                                  The information that’s lost is the conveyance that this is more important to Linus than most subjects.

                                                                                                  So add “I want to stress that this issue is really important to me” at the end of the revised email.

                                                                                                  I think that making an issue out of this particular information being lost is missing the point - that it would be possible to say the same thing as Linus did without being abusive.

                                                                                                  Contrary to what hipsters write blog posts complaining about

                                                                                                  You’re falling into the same trap that the post discusses. This derision isn’t necessary to make your point, and doesn’t make it any stronger - it just adds an unnecessary insult.

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                                                                                                    Contrary to what hipsters write blog posts complaining about, 99% of Linus’s emails are cordial.

                                                                                                    That may well be true, but do we need that last 1% in a professional setting?

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                                                                                                      (I am not defending Linus’ behaviour here, please don’t put those words in my mouth.)

                                                                                                      I strongly take issue with American ideas of “professionalism”, and an even more so with the idea that we get to decide whether this project is “a professional setting” or not. What exactly makes this a “professional setting”? What is a “professional setting”? Why do we hold some interactions to higher standards than others?

                                                                                                      I suspect “money changing hands” is the thing that makes this “a professional setting”, and that grinds my gears even further. Why are we supposed to hold ourselves to different standards just because some people are getting paid for doing it?

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                                                                                                        Right, “professionalism” implies that you only need to be nice to somebody when you want them to something for you or want their money. This should actually be about “respect”, whether or not you want a Linux contributor to do something for you or want their money.

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                                                                                                        The Linux kernel is not a professional setting. Besides, I argue that the 1% is useful, even in a professional setting - sometimes strong words are called for. I’ll be That Guy and say that people should grow a thicker skin, especially people who weren’t even the subject of the email and have never been involved in kernel development.

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                                                                                                          If I look at who the contributors to the Linux kernel are, it would certainly appear to be a professional endeavor.

                                                                                                          A large chunk of contributions to the kernel are made by people who are getting paid by the companies they work for to contribute. Sounds like a professional setting to me.

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                                                                                                            Linux development is only “a professional endeavour” (which is a phrase I have strong issues with, see above) because some people decided to build their businesses in Linus’ craft room. We can like or dislike Linus’ behaviour, but we don’t get to ascribe “professionalism” or lack thereof (if there even is such a thing) to Linus’ work or behaviour, or that of any of the contributors.

                                                                                                            Even if “professionalism” is an actual thing (it’s not; it’s just a tool used by people in power to keep others down) it’s between the people doing the paying, and the people getting the pay, and has nothing to do with any of us.

                                                                                                            This idea that people should behave differently when there’s money involved is completely offensive to me.

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                                                                                                              But it’s not. It’s a collaboration between everyone, including professionals and hobbyists. The largest group of kernel contributors are volunteers. On top of that, Linus doesn’t have to answer to anyone.

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                                                                                                                So, having a hobbyist involved means that you can be dickhead? Is that the conclusion that should be drawn from your statements?

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                                                                                                                  No. I’m saying that Linus is not a dickhead, Linux is not a professional endeavour, and neither should be held to contrived professional standards.

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                                                                                                                    “I’m saying that Linus is not a dickhead”

                                                                                                                    His comments are proving otherwise given the main article shows the same information could’ve been conveyed without all the profanity, personal insults, and so on. He must be adding that fluff because he enjoys it or has self-control issues. He’s intentionally or accidentally a dick. I say that as a satirist whose a dick to people that give me headaches in real life. Although it doesn’t take one to know one, being someone whose always countering dicks and assholes with some dickish habits of his own makes what Linus is doing more evident. If no mental illness, there’s little excuse past him not giving a shit.

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                                                                                                                      “doesn’t behave according to my cultural norms” == “mental illness”

                                                                                                                      Seriously?

                                                                                                                      I would really appreciate it if you could stop expecting that your cultural norms have to apply to everyone on the planet.

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                                                                                                                        Im identifying the cultural norm of being an asshole, saying it applies to him at times, and saying the project would benefit if he knocked if off. Im not forcing my norms on anyone.

                                                                                                                        Your comment is more amusing giving someone with Linus’s norns might just reply with profanity and personsl insults. Then, you might be complaining about that. ;)

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                                                                                                                          Then, you might be complaining about that. ;)

                                                                                                                          No, I’d just accept that people from different cultures behave differently.

                                                                                                                          Let’s face it, most people hate getting told they are wrong, regardless of the tone. That’s just how we are as humans.

                                                                                                                          Taking offense about the tone just seems very US-specific, as they are accustomed to receiving some special superpowers in a discussion by uttering “I’m offended”.

                                                                                                                          Some of the best feedback I received in my life wouldn’t be considered acceptable by US standards and I simply don’t care – I just appreciate the fact that someone took his time to spell out the technical problems.

                                                                                                                          Here is a recent example: https://github.com/rust-lang/cargo/pull/5183#issuecomment-381449546

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                                                                                                                            Here is a recent example: https://github.com/rust-lang/cargo/pull/5183#issuecomment-381449546

                                                                                                                            I’m not familiar with Rust, so maybe I’m missing crucial context, but I read this feedback as firm but unproblematic overall. Compared to Linus’ email:

                                                                                                                            • Comment admits that there are multiple points of view, gives case for their take on it.
                                                                                                                            • Focuses on the problems at hand rather than speculating on characteristics of any individuals involved, beyond acknowledging other viewpoints.
                                                                                                                            • Doesn’t include any personal insults.
                                                                                                                            • Doesn’t include any profanity that I noticed, certainly not gratuituous profanity.

                                                                                                                            It could be nicer, sure. But it seemed respectful, in the “you can do what you’re doing but consider these things:” kind of way…? The author event went out of their way to acknowledge being unconstructive.

                                                                                                                            To my reading it seemed closer to Gary’s email than Linus’.

                                                                                                                            To put it another way: if Linus wrote emails like this (only shorter, probably) then I don’t think Gary would have written a blog post about it.

                                                                                                                            (For the record: I’m not American, but I do fall on the gee-it’d-be-great-if-Linus-stopped-abusing-his-colleagues side of this debate.)

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                                                                                                                              I didn’t intend to imply that this was comparable to Linus’ mail, but that people who would be offended by Linus’ writing would also be offended by that comment.

                                                                                                                              It’s a slippery slide where every honest-to-go comment that expresses real feelings starts getting replaced by “this is an interesting idea, but did you consider …” corporate lingo, even if the code is horribly wrong.

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                                                                                                                                I didn’t intend to imply that this was comparable to Linus’ mail, but that people who would be offended by Linus’ writing would also be offended by that comment.

                                                                                                                                I understand this is your point, but I think there is no evidence for this. The people complaining about Linus’ conduct are complaining about specific things, and these things are not present in the comment you linked.

                                                                                                                                Did anyone in the Rust community (generally considered a “nicer” community than kernel development) raise concerns about this comment?

                                                                                                                                There is a difference between “not overtly nice” and “openly abusive”, even accounting for cultural context.

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                                                                                                                              Then you and I arent that different in how we look at stuff. Ive just layered on top of it a push for project owners to do what’s most effective on social side.

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                                                                                                                          I believe it’s intentional. He does not want to be bothered by nurturing the newbs, so he deters them from going to him directly and forces them to do their learning elsewhere.

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                                                                                                                          These numbers suggest it is a professional endeavor:

                                                                                                                          https://thenewstack.io/contributes-linux-kernel/

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                                                                                                                            Those numbers just break down the professionals involved, and don’t consider the volunteers. If you sum the percentages in that article you get around 40%. Even accomodating for smaller companies that didn’t make the top N companies, that’s a pretty big discrepancy.

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                                                                                                                    Linus himself is working in a professional capacity. He’s employed by the Linux Foundation to work on Linux. The fact he is employed to work on an open source project that he founded doesn’t make that situation non-professional.