1. 4

    I recommend reading the discussion in Redmine. It seems the rational is that Integer(string) rescue default_value:

    1. is slower than Integer(string, exception: false) || default_value.
    2. generates a lot of noise in debug mode.

    I have mixed feelings about that.

    1. 6

      Noise in debug mode can be a significant usability issue. Performance as well. Even though Ruby isn’t traditionally used for ultra high performance code, doesn’t mean someone somewhere won’t benefit from parsing integers faster.

      I’m more interested in exception: true for calls like system. Getting the exact error for an execution is super helpful, like the ENOENT example.

      1. 1

        Noise in debug mode can be a significant usability issue. Performance as well. Even though Ruby isn’t traditionally used for ultra high performance code, doesn’t mean someone somewhere won’t benefit from parsing integers faster.

        “Someone somewhere” isn’t a good enough criterion to add a feature to the language. It can easily lead to a ton of hacks being piled onto the language.

        My biggest concern is the conflation of a language and a runtime. Performance and debugging are first and foremost runtime issues. I realize not all language constructs can be implemented effectively but in this case it seems Ruby is modified to address purely runtime-related issues.

        Regarding exception: true for system it seems you’re conflating two things - returning error information and raising an exception. Errors can easily be returned as objects instead of being raised an exception.

        My feeling is this addition makes the language less elegant although I understand the underlying motivation.

        1. 1

          “Someone somewhere” was meant to be generous, but I am quite certain this will be useful for many people.

          I think other languages frequently do this worse than this. At the very worst, some have different functions with synonymous names that do one or the other thing. Either way, Ruby can’t just stop throwing ArgumentError in Integer by default, since that would break most code that actually error handles that conversion. This is a pretty good solution given the constraints, and fixing it in the runtime would be hot garbage.

          How would that even work? Right now there is a runtime flag, # frozen_string_literal: true, but that doesn’t really reduce the readability or workability of code. Having something like # kernel_throws_exceptions: true/false would make code outrageously difficult to read. If you alter the behavior of Kernel module functions you’d have to check the header of every file to figure out what the behavior was. If you made it a vm flag, developers would have to know which setting is used when writing code, and users would have to know which setting they have to use when running the code. It just doesn’t work.

          Even if they wanted to break back compat, which they don’t, using things like option types or multiple returns aren’t really idiomatic in ruby. It would be a lot sillier to blatantly go against the grain of the language in order to avoid a slightly awkward optional keyword flag.

          Performance and debugging are first and foremost runtime issues.

          I haven’t disagreed with anything this much in a long long long time. But I’d also prefer not to get into it.

          I realize not all language constructs can be implemented effectively but in this case it seems Ruby is modified to address purely runtime-related issues.

          Not really. Raising exceptions will be slower than returns, always. Unless you deliberately slow down returns to match exceptions, or your language has such weird semantics that returns are necessarily also slow. But both of those situations, aside from not applying to ruby, are ridiculous.

          1. 1

            Just as if (false) ... is dead code and can be eliminated, so too my_method rescue my_value can disable exceptions in my_method. This will be difficult to implement in general (you’d need to enable/disable exceptions at various stack levels depending on how the call site looks like) but should be totally doable for functions implemented in C.

            Option types or multiple returns aren’t idiomatic Ruby and I think this might be my problem here.

    1. 4

      most working developers

      Ummm.[1]

      1. 11

        Things I self-host now on the Interwebs (as opposed to at home):

        • NextCloud
        • Bookstack Wiki
        • Various sites and smaller web apps (Privatebin, Lutim, Framadate etc)
        • Mailu Mail Server
        • Searx

        Things I’m setting up on the Interwebs:

        • Gitea on HTTPd
        • OpenSMTPd
        • Munin
        • Pleroma
        • Transmission
        • DNS (considering Unbound for now)

        Over time I may move the Docker and KVM-based Linux boxes over to OpenBSD and VMM as it matures. I’m moving internal systems from Debian to Open or NetBSD because I’ve had enough of Systemd.

        1. 6

          Out of curiosity, why migrate your entire OS to avoid SystemD rather than just switch init systems? Debian supports others just fine. I use OpenRC with no issues, and personally find that solution much more comfortable than learning an entirely new management interface.

          1. 11

            To be fair, it’s not just systemd, but systemd was the beginning of the end for me.

            I expect my servers to be stable and mostly static. I expect to understand what’s running on them, and to manage them accordingly. Over the years, Debian has continued to change, choosing things I just don’t support (systemd, removing ifconfig etc). I’ve moved most of my stack over to docker, which has made deployment easier at the cost of me just not being certain what code I’m running at any point in time. So in effect I’m not even really running Debian as such (my docker images are a mix of alpine and ubuntu images anyway).

            I used to use NetBSD years back quite heavily, so moving back to it is fairly straightforward, and I like OpenBSD’s approach to code reduction and simplicity over feature chasing. I think it was always on the cards but the removal of ifconfig and the recent furore over the abort() function with RMS gave me the shove I needed to start moving.

            1. 4

              Docker doesn’t work on OpenBSD though, so what are you going to do?

              1. 2

                For now I’m backing up my configs in git, data via rsync/ssh and will probably manage deployment via Ansible.

                It’s not as easy as docker-compose, but not as scary as pulling images from public repos. Plus, I’ll actually know what code I’m running at a given point in time.

                1. 1

                  Have you looked at Capistrano for deployment? Its workflow for deployment and rollback centers around releasing a branch of a git repo.

                  I’m interested in what you think of the two strategies and why you’d use one or the other for your setup, if you have an opinion.

                  1. 1

                    I don’t run ruby, given the choice. It’s not a dogmatic thing, it’s just that I’ve found that there are more important things for me to get round to than learning ruby properly, and that if I’m not prepared to learn it properly I’m not giving it a fair shout.

            2. 4

              N.B. You can partially remove systemd, but not completely remove it. Many binaries runtime depend on libsystemd even if they don’t appear like they would need it.

              When I ran my own init system on Arch (systemd was giving me woes) I had to keep libsystemd.so installed for even simple tools like pgrep to work.

              Some more info and discussion here. I didn’t want to switch away from Arch, but I also didn’t want remnants of systemd sticking around. Given the culture of systemd adding new features and acting like a sysadmin on my computer I thought it wise to try and keep my distance.

              1. 2

                The author of the article regarding pgrep you linked used an ancient, outdated kernel, and complained that the newest versions of software wouldn’t work. He/She used all debug flags for the kernel, and complained about the verbosity. He/She used a custom, unsupported build of a bootloader, and complained about the interface. He/She installed a custom kernel package, and was surprised that it (requiring a different partition layout) wiped his/her partitions. He/She complains about color profiles, and says he/she “does not use color profiles” – which is hilarious, considering he/she definitely does use them, just unknowingly, and likely with the default sRGB set (which is horribly inaccurate anyway). He/She asks why pgrep has a systemd dependency – pgrep and ps both support displaying the systemd unit owning a process.

                1. 3

                  I’m the author of the article.

                  ancient, outdated kernel all debug flags for the kernel unsupported build of a bootloader

                  The kernel, kernel build options and bootloader were set by Arch Linux ARM project. They were not unsupported or unusual, they were what the team provided in their install instructions and their repos.

                  A newer mainstream kernel build did appear in the repos at some point, but it had several features broken (suspend/resume, etc). The only valid option for day to day use was the recommended old kernel.

                  complained that the newest versions of software wouldn’t work

                  I’m perfectly happy for software to break due to out of date dependencies. But an init system is a special case, because if it fails then the operating system becomes inoperable.

                  Core software should fail gracefully. A good piece of software behaves well in both normal and adverse conditions.

                  I was greatly surprised that systemd did not provide some form of rescue getty or anything else upon failure. It left me in a position that was very difficult to solve.

                  He/She installed a custom kernel package, and was surprised that it (requiring a different partition layout) wiped his/her partitions

                  This was not a custom kernel package, it was provided by the Arch Linux ARM team. It was a newer kernel package that described itself as supporting my model. As it turns out it was the new recommended/mandated kernel package in the Arch Linux ARM install instructions for my laptop.

                  Even if the kernel were custom, it is highly unusual for distribution packages to contain scripts that overwrite partitions.

                  He/She complains about color profiles, and says he/she “does not use color profiles” – which is hilarious, considering he/she definitely does use them, just unknowingly

                  There are multiple concepts under the words of ‘colour profiles’ that it looks like you have merged together here.

                  Colour profiles are indeed used by image and video codecs every day on our computers. Most of these formats do not store their data in the same format as our monitors expect (RGB888 gamma ~2.2, ie common sRGB) so they have to perform colour space conversions.

                  Whatever the systemd unit was providing in the form of ‘colour profiles’ was completely unnecessary for this process. All my applications worked before systemd did this. And they still do now without systemd doing it.

                  likely with the default sRGB set (which is horribly inaccurate anyway)

                  1:1 sRGB is good enough for most people, as it’s only possible to obtain benefits from colour profiles in very specific scenarios.

                  If you are using a new desktop monitor and you have a specific task you need or want to match for, then yes.

                  If you are using a laptop screen like I was: most change their colour curves dramatically when you change the screen viewing angle. Tweaking of colour profiles provides next to no benefit. Some laptop models have much nicer screens and avoid this, but at the cost of battery life (higher light emissions) and generally higher cost.

                  I use second hand monitors for my desktop. They mostly do not have factory provided colour profiles, and even then the (CCFL) backlights have aged and changed their responses. Without calibrated color profiling equipment there is not much I can do, and is not worth the effort unless I have a very specific reason to do so.

                  He/She asks why pgrep has a systemd dependency – pgrep and ps both support displaying the systemd unit owning a process.

                  You can do this without making systemd libraries a hard runtime dependency.

                  I raised this issue because of a concept that seemed more pertinent to me: the extension of systemd’s influence. I don’t think it’s appropriate for basic tools to depend on any optional programs or libraries, whether they be an init system like systemd, a runtime like mono or a framework like docker.

                  1. 2

                    Almost all of these issues are distro issues.

                    Systemd can work without the color profile daemon, and ps and pgrep can work without systemd. Same with the kernel.

                    But the policy of Arch is to always build all packages with all possible dependencies as hard dependencies.

                    e.g. for Quassel, which can make use of KDE integration, but doesn’t require it, they decide to build it so that it has a hard dependency on KDE (which means it pulls in 400M of packages for a package that would be fine without any of them).

                  2. 1

                    Why he/she instead of they? It makes your comment difficult to read

                    1. 1

                      tbh, I dunno. I usually use third-person they.

              2. 3

                I really wish the FreeBSD port of Docker was still maintained. It’s a few years behind at this point, but if FreeBSD was supported as a first class Docker operating system, I think we’d see a lot more people running it.

                1. 4

                  IME Docker abstracts the problem under a layer of magic rather than providing a sustainable solution.

                  Yes it makes things as easy as adding a line referencing a random github repo to deploy otherwise troublesome software. I’m not convinced this is a good thing.

                  1. 3

                    As someone who needs to know exactly what gets deployed in production, and therefore cannot use any public registry, I can say with certainty that Docker is a lot less cool without the plethora of automagic images you can run.

                    1. 2

                      Exactly, once you start running private registries it’s not the timesaver it may have first appeared as.

                      1. 1

                        Personally, I’ll have to disagree with that. I’m letting Gitlab automatically build the containers I need as basis, plus my own. And the result is very amazing because scaling, development, reproducibility etc are much easier given.

                  2. 3

                    I think Kubernetes has support for some alternative runtimes, including FreeBSD jails? That might make FreeBSD more popular in the long run.

                  3. 1

                    How is the next cloud video chat feature? Does it work reliably compared to Zoom.us?

                    1. 1

                      Works fine for me(tm).

                      It seems fine both over mobile and laptop, and over 4G. I haven’t tried any large groups and I doubt I’ll use it much, but so far I’ve been impressed.

                    2. 1

                      Is bookstack good? I’m on the never ending search for a good wiki system. I keep half writing my own and (thankfully) failing to complete it.

                      1. 2

                        Cowyo is pretty straighforward (if sort of sparse).

                        Being go and working with flat files, it’s pretty straightforward to run & backup.

                        1. 2

                          Bookstack is by far one of the best wikis I’ve given to non-technical people to use. However I think it stores HTML internally, which is a bit icky in my view. I’d prefer it if they converted it to markdown. Still, it’s fairly low resource, pretty and works very, very well.

                      1. 4

                        What’s the meaning of the last line, “I showed up for him”?

                        1. 13

                          As used here, “him” implicitly means more than just “Steve Jobs.” It alludes to the essence of Jobs, the things that make him who he is. Carmack is saying he dropped everything he was working on when Jobs asked for him because of his admiration and respect for Jobs’ as a person, not just for Jobs’ fame or influence. Sentences like these are frequently written with “him” italicized, and spoken with strong emphasis on “him.”

                          That’s how I read it anyway.

                          Sorry if my explanation seems patronizing, I just went ahead and assumed you’re a non-native English speaker.

                          1. 6

                            Thanks – not patronizing at all, even though I am in fact a native speaker :) Just not familiar with that phrase and unsure if I should take it literally.

                            1. 8

                              As a non-native speaker, that’s quite reassuring to know that English subtleties are deep, even for a native speaker :-)

                            2. 6

                              I read it as John showing up for Jobs’ funeral :-)

                          1. 2

                            I remember that I absolutely loved games, the internet, and physical toys when I was younger. My friends all felt the same way. Video games were all we talked about at lunch because the only other thing in our lives were school or (for some people) sports. Recess was fifteen minutes at the most, sometimes being an optional part of a half hour lunch period. It was never convenient to invite friends over to play. Video games were really the only thing kids were allowed to do on their own besides drawing or legos.

                            I remember that I was always made to do my homework before being allowed to play, even if that meant doing homework until after bedtime, and being forced to bed straight after. When I got older, around early middle school, I was allowed to make my own schedule, which was much better, but I always did my homework. If getting homework done is an issue, it’s not addiction. It’s poor time management.

                            There were out-of-control children back when I was younger, but there weren’t smartphones back then.

                            There was one time when my mom took away screen time privileges. I was sad about it. I mostly just played legos. I still ignored my mother for the most part, but I sometimes offered to play a board game with her. About nine out of ten times, she said she was too busy, so I suppose she didn’t care about family time either.

                            I should stop rambling about my past. Anyway, my opinion is that people are better off with smartphones. Some idiots will manage to misuse them, but those idiots will misuse everything when they have the chance. Fortunately, Being an adult gives me enough freedom and spending money so that I don’t need to distract myself with my phone if I don’t want to.

                            1. 5

                              Your story about screen time reminds me of when my parents stopped me from using a computer until I did all my homework. 200+ books later and a solid F- in all my classes, my parents gave up.

                              1. 4

                                I should strive to be as stubborn as you.

                                1. 1

                                  My parents encouraged me to play more outdoors once by disabling the PSU on the 286 I had in my room and having tight control over the family 386.

                                  I was recentful as fuck while reading books and drawing game designs in a notebook under a tree, waking up early to sneak some gaming on the 386 and doing my best to watch as much TV as possible.

                                  Say what you want about TV, it wasn’t The Real Housewives of New Jersey we had back then. Anyway, affecting a child’s fundamental personality is hard and the only thing to hope and strive for is that the nerdy traits don’t get mis-channeled to Farmville.

                                  Edit: at least they did it out of love and saw it failed.

                              1. 7

                                It totally depends how you approach it.

                                K8S on GKE is a breeze.

                                K8S on aws w/ kops is a nightmare, but doable.

                                We ended up taking most the features of kube away from developers and picked sane defaults for people and called it a day. You don’t need every spanner in the toolbox, but the guts of K8S (the scheduler, kubectl etc.) are great if you can separate the wheat from the chaff.

                                1. 10

                                  I know this is not a super helpful comment but I semi-believe it: I think k8s at this point is likely just a funnel to GCP/GKE.

                                  1. 2

                                    Except that Red Hat and IBM are investing heavily in Kubernetes, and they don’t get anything from Google. GKE is Debian.

                                    1. 1

                                      But they are the go-tos for “we can’t / won’t use Google / cloud” so there’s room on the gravy train for them, too.

                                      1. 1

                                        I’m not sure how that conflicts with my claim above. If your competitor has a successful funnel, a reasonable strategy is to piggy-back on it. It doesn’t mean my claim is true, just that your statement doesn’t counter it at all.

                                  1. 9

                                    Someone should create a website that grabs these twitter threads and creates a blog page out of them

                                    1. 14

                                      There are a few different sites like that. Here is this thread as displayed by threadreaderapp.com.

                                    1. 20

                                      sigh

                                      So, this has already sparked a discussion about taste, freedom of speech, the whole thing.

                                      The joke in question is bad, very bad. It’s plain unfitting, and it isn’t even remotely funny. It’s US-centric. RMS, the person making and subsequently claiming it, has a history of making sexual and other inappropriate commentary (e.g. arguing eugenics). His quoted comment about child birth is another example of RMS speaking about things he probably doesn’t have a very qualified opinion on. Most (all?) of the people mentioned in the article discussing the issue will never be affected by this in the real world. Seriously, I expect one of those people to stand up and say “You know what? We aren’t even the right group to discuss that in!”.

                                      And this is the issue he pulls his authority card? Seriously? For a bad joke that was already shit in the 90s? That - even ignoring the punchline being terrible - just plain isn’t funny? Which boundary does that cross? Probably his egos.

                                      Seriously, this is a tech manual. This is the place where you can finally have your “let’s just talk tech her”. And there, this discussion comes up?

                                      1. 17

                                        The thing I find weird is the clear generational gap in Internet users that mean that people end up talking past each other.

                                        For older people who grew up thinking that Sendmail m4 macros were somehow intuitive, and that C was the new hotness, this is not a joke about abortion. It’s about censorship. That’s the hill RMS thinks he’s dying on. Removing the joke is at the risk of putting words in his mouth, censoring the manual.

                                        Of course, the younger people who live in a world where Javascript isn’t ridiculous to use on a server, where everything-as-a-service is the norm demand takedowns of things outside of their overton window. To them, it’s a matter of not having a frankly disgusting joke about the very real problems of abortion in the US in a technical manual that has nothing to do with those problems. They don’t understand the culture in which GNU was founded, they believe that it is RMS’ job to change to fit with their culture.

                                        This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. I’m just not sure who plays which part here. There is a reasonable answer, and the good news for the kids is that this has happened before several times: fork glibc. Fork it to remove RMS’ influence from the project and fork it to remove the offending text (for people that want it removed).

                                        1. 17

                                          Even as a commentary about censorship, it’s pretty freaking oblique. It should be removed on the technical grounds that it’s inefficient GNU crap.

                                          1. 2

                                            Stallman is pretty freaking oblique at the best of times when it comes to his sense of humour. Saying that GNU is full of inefficient crap is like saying that water is wet, or that the Linux kernel is a bug-ridden dumpster fire.

                                            If every GNU inefficiency was removed, it’d be BSD.

                                            1. -1

                                              It should be removed on the technical grounds that it’s inefficient GNU crap.

                                              Nobody force you to use GNU crap.

                                              But GNU is and have always been openly political.

                                              You are free to use software that is apparently neutral. if you don’t like it.
                                              And you have plenty of choice on the market: Microsoft, Apple, Google… all are pretty ready to serve your needs (and collect your data for whatever purpose, and lobbying for DRM and so on../)

                                              But “as a commentary about censorship”, that joke is perfectly fine.

                                              1. 6

                                                Nobody force you to use GNU crap.

                                                The fact that you are saying this to tedu (an OpenBSD developer) is kind of funny.

                                                1. 5

                                                  I’m fine with GNU being a political project. Indeed, I actively advocate for projects to make their mind up.

                                                  But “as a commentary about censorship”, that joke is perfectly fine.

                                                  A lot of the project itself does not seem to agree, especially in the context of having it in the documentation. Except RMS, who pulls rank over a joke that he himself made. Which makes the GNU project his personal opinion/joke vehicle.

                                                  1. 3

                                                    Except RMS, who pulls rank over a joke that he himself made. Which makes the GNU project his personal opinion/joke vehicle.

                                                    I don’t see the point you’re making here? The GNU project was always an expression of political views that were, originally, personal to RMS. If the project ran by majority consensus it would have given up on the whole free software thing a long time ago.

                                                    1. -3

                                                      Using your “Rust Community Team” hat here is crass, and only reinforces some people’s beliefs (myself included) about these types of thought police organizations.

                                                      I sure hope the non-“Rust Community Team” people show less virtue signalling. It puts your project under a terrible spotlight.

                                                      1. 5

                                                        FWIW, I find the use of the hat inappropriate here as well.

                                                        That being said, as discussed below, I think it depends on what you think the hat means, exactly. It seems Florian uses the hat differently than many here might expect.

                                              2. 7
                                                1. I think the joke is funny. It’s even more funny now.
                                                2. RMS’s character has no bearing on the legitimacy of the joke.
                                                3. You don’t need to be qualified to have an opinion.
                                                4. Any group can discuss any topic, there is no “right” group.
                                                5. RMS is the benevolent dictator of GNU, and as such has the authority to veto decisions in rare situations like these.
                                                1. 10

                                                  Be that as it may, when the people who have written the code (glibc was originally written by someone else (not RMS), and Ulrich Drepper is now responsible for something like 70% of the code) and make it all work ask you to back off, it’s a stupid hill to die on. Yeah, you might win the battle, but you’ll lose the war.

                                                  Last time something like this happened, everyone switched to using eglibc and it wasn’t until the RMS-mandated steering committee was dissolved that people switched back to glibc. If RMS decides to be a jerk about things, watch everyone fork it again or sink their resources into musl.

                                                  There’s being right, and there’s being so egotistical that you burn down the house because you didn’t get your way.

                                                  1. 4

                                                    He has veto power for precisely these cases where “everyone else” disagrees, so I don’t think it’s a stupid hill to die on. In any case, I agree with you, RMS will lose this war, this is just the beginning.

                                                    1. 15

                                                      Vetoing the removal of a little-used architecture with heavy maintenance burden because they want to support those few users is a good hill to die on. Vetoing the removal of a joke that everyone else wants to remove from the manual and doesn’t in any way affect the operation of the library is a stupid hill to die on.

                                                      1. 3

                                                        That’s in your opinion. If you care the culture of your project not taking itself so seriously, I think it’s a good hill to die on.

                                                2. 5

                                                  As a participant in Rust Community and a proponent of eugenics, your use of Rust Community Team hat makes me uncomfortable. Was it necessary? Are you really speaking for Rust Community Team here? I hope my eugenics advocacy won’t affect my Rust participation.

                                                  As for the joke, the joke is clearly about censorship and not about abortion. I think attempt to censor the joke makes it more relevant.

                                                  1. 2

                                                    As for the joke, the joke is clearly about censorship and not about abortion.

                                                    Jokes, by their nature, are not clear and subject to cultural background and education. In my opinion, it’s a bit condescending to claim that it has universal understanding and appeal.

                                                    I think attempt to censor the joke makes it more relevant.

                                                    The origin of the patch seems to be the person just didn’t think it relayed any meaningful information to a user of the function. I don’t think that falls into common usage of “censorship”.

                                                    1. -2

                                                      I don’t think that falls into common usage of “censorship”.

                                                      Yes, and I have yet to see a documentation patch forced on a project by a state.

                                                      1. 2

                                                        Censorship exists only when done by the state??

                                                    2. 1

                                                      On FOSS social issues, I generally put the hat on here. As my work for the Rust project is social, judging which of these issues I should put the hat on would only lead to problems. I’m fine with people knowing my affiliation and I think it’s more honest for people to know it. I don’t speak for the team, but I am a member of the team.

                                                      On Eugenics: it’s, in my view, an only thinly veiled form of Ableism, and as such opposed to the goal of being inclusive, especially also to people with disability. Many forms fundamentally attack the right to live of people with disabilities, for example by arguing for their abortion.

                                                      Just to be clear on which comment by RMS I’m referring to (on people with Trisomy 21):

                                                      If you’d like to love and care for a pet that doesn’t have normal human mental capacity, don’t create a handicapped human being to be your pet. Get a dog or a parrot…

                                                      If you want to support that comment, go ahead.

                                                      1. 3

                                                        I support the idea behind the comment. Given medical acceptance of prenatal screening of trisomy 21, this is one of less extreme among RMS’s positions.

                                                        I agree the expression of the idea in the comment you quoted leaves a lot to be desired.

                                                        1. -1

                                                          Prenatal screening of trisomy 21 are generally accepted as a way to increase survival chances for the fetus.
                                                          Trisomy 21 increases the risk of heart issues at birth, that can be handled in the proper structure, but would lead to secure death if not addressed promptly.

                                                          Some people use it for eugenetics (usually with amniocentesis, that kills 1 healthy children out of 200 if I remember correctly).

                                                          Now, IMO what RMS means is horrible, disgusting and plain dangerous.
                                                          But it’s not related to freedom. And he has the right to think (and say) it.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            Prenatal screening of trisomy 21 are generally accepted as a way to increase survival chances for the fetus.

                                                            Do you have a citation for your “generally accepted” claim? There appears to be at least some evidence to the contrary:

                                                            About 92% of pregnancies in Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome are terminated.[14] In the United States, termination rates are around 67%, but this rate varied from 61% to 93% among different populations.[13] Rates are lower among women who are younger and have decreased over time.[13] When nonpregnant people are asked if they would have a termination if their fetus tested positive, 23–33% said yes, when high-risk pregnant women were asked, 46–86% said yes, and when women who screened positive are asked, 89–97% say yes.[75]

                                                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome#Abortion_rates

                                                            1. 0

                                                              This is entirely offtopic here, but I don’t want to flee the question.

                                                              My source is my doctor, that incidentally is also my wife.
                                                              When the prenatal screening of our second daughter established 1/350 probability of a Down syndrome, she explained me about amniocentesis, about the risks for the fetus and about the implications and the medical reasoning beyond it. It’s a complex topic and I’m not competent enough to expose it here deeply, but the relevant point was that, while several doctors object to abortion as a murder in contrast with their oath and ethics, prenatal screening is designed to increase the survival of the fetus, so every doctor is fine with it.

                                                        2. 1

                                                          On FOSS social issues, I generally put the hat on here. As my work for the Rust project is social, judging which of these issues I should put the hat on would only lead to problems. I’m fine with people knowing my affiliation and I think it’s more honest for people to know it. I don’t speak for the team, but I am a member of the team.

                                                          While I do not agree with you on the “joke on documentation” issue, I really support this approach.

                                                          Hacking is a ethical and political action.

                                                        3. -1

                                                          I hope my eugenics advocacy won’t affect my Rust participation.

                                                          If that’s what you think that means, and you advocate for any intelligence-based eugenics, you might want to reconsider your position on eugenics.

                                                          This obviously would only affect you if you attempted to add eugenics commentary to the Rust project itself in some way. Same as if you attempted to add any other irrelevant polarizing commentary.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            I don’t talk eugenics on Rust space. Not because eugenics is wrong (it isn’t), but because it’s off-topic.

                                                            1. 2

                                                              it’s off-topic

                                                              Yes. And it’s also off-topic for glibc.

                                                              1. 0

                                                                No, it isn’t. By definition.

                                                                You might not agree with GNU or with rms here, or you might prefer that glibc would not be a GNU project, but it is.

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  Fine. But the consensus of the primary maintainers is that it’s off-topic. Therefore it’s off-topic for whatever fork of glibc everyone ends up using. Because if we get another eglibc situation, everyone will use the fork maintained by the maintainers, and no one will use the fork “maintained” by rms.

                                                                  It’s de facto off-topic for those who accept reality.

                                                                  1. 0

                                                                    Anyone who “accepts reality” in that sense wouldn’t be contributing to GNU in the first place. The project has always been about RMS telling the rest of the world they’re wrong.

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      See eglibc. A non-GNU fork already happened, and was reintegrated when the issue was dropped.

                                                                      I don’t see how you can say that those kind of people wouldn’t be contributing to GNU, when they clearly are and that’s what this is all about. If those kind of people wouldn’t be contributing to GNU, then why is there any debate?

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        There is debate precisely because the people contributing don’t subscribe to your notion that the primary maintainer consensus is all that matters. glibc contributors do care about GNU and RMS, otherwise the eglibc-style fork would already have happened and the project would now be being maintained outside the GNU umbrella.

                                                      1. 18

                                                        I love postgres (I’m a postgres DBA), and really dislike mysql (due to a long story involving a patch-level release causing server crashes and data loss).

                                                        That said, there is still a technical reason to choose mysql over postgres. Mysql’s replication story is still significantly better than postgres’. Multi-master, in particular, is something that’s relatively straightforward in mysql, but which requires third-party extensions and much more fiddling in postgres.

                                                        Now, postgres has been catching up on this front. Notably, the addition of logical replication over the last couple major versions really expands the options available. There’s a possibility that this feature will even be part of postgres 11, coming out this year (it’s on a roadmap). But until it does, it’s a significant feature missing from postgres that other RDBMSes have.

                                                        1. 7

                                                          There’s a possibility that this feature will even be part of postgres 11

                                                          PG 11 is in feature freeze since April. I don’t think there was anything significant for multi-master committed before that.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            Good point. I’d seen the feature freeze deadline, but wasn’t sure if it had actually happened, and what had made it in (I haven’t followed the -hackers mailing list for a while). I was mostly speculating based on the fact that they’d announced a multi-master beta for last fall.

                                                            I’m not surprised it’s taking a long time – it’s a hard problem – but it means that “clustering” is going to be a weak point for postgres for a while longer.

                                                          2. 3

                                                            Once you take all the other potential issues and difficulties with MySQL into account though, surely Postgres is a better choice on balance, even with more difficult replication setup?

                                                            1. 5

                                                              It really depends. If you need horizontally-scalable write performance, and it’s important enough to sacrifice other features, then a mysql cluster is still going to do that better than postgres. It’s possible that a nosql solution might fit better than mysql, but overall that’s a decision that I can’t make for you.

                                                              I’ll add that there are bits of postgres administration that aren’t intuitive. Specifically, bloat of on-disk table size (and associated slowdowns) under certain loads can really confuse people. If you can’t afford to have a DBA, or at least a dev who’s a DB expert, mysql can be very attractive. I’m not saying that’s a good reason to choose it, but I understand why some people do.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                What are your thoughts on MySQL vs MariaDB, especially the newer versions?

                                                                1. 3

                                                                  Honestly, I haven’t looked closely at MariaDB lately. The last time I did was just to compare json datatypes – at the time, both mysql and mariadb were just storing json as parsed/verified text blobs without notable additional functionality.

                                                                  I have to assume it’s better than mysql at things like stability, data safety, and other boring-but-necessary features. That’s mostly because mysql sets such a low bar, though, that it would take effort to make it worse.

                                                                2. 1

                                                                  You clearly know more about databases than me, but I would question idea that MySQL is a good choice when you lack a DB expert. If anything, it is then when you shouldn’t use it. I still carry scars from issues caused by such lack of expertise at one of my previous employers.

                                                            1. 3

                                                              currently 1 developer and 2 community managers

                                                              Am i the only one who is bothered by this? Its understandable for commercial projects, but i can’t imagine what a manager for an open source community is doing.

                                                              1. 4

                                                                Manager and community manager are very different roles. A community manager is anyone who manages the community through interaction. That can mean writing news posts, writing release notes, publishing a roadmap, responding to user questions on forums or IRC, moderating, and more. I can easily see how a Linux distribution could use two part time people to do all of those things.

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  Not sure why you think this is problematic. The concept of forum moderators, though not quite the same, has been around since forever.

                                                                1. 4

                                                                  release tags are for software features that are released, not for advertising of future features.

                                                                  Please keep marketing and ad copy off of our site. :)

                                                                  1. 4

                                                                    wasn’t trying to do marketing copy. it seemed like talking about what we are planning on releasing thanks to lots of feedback from many folks including in the lobste.rs community was appropriate.

                                                                    i’ll note that in the future for release tag. I switched to Show and Distributed as I think that might better match the intent.

                                                                    1. 4

                                                                      The post has interesting tech details and background, but also a somewhat sales-y tone. I could go either way on calling it marketing copy. I think the votes roughly reflect that.

                                                                  1. 26

                                                                    I’m glad to see this trend of standing up against poltiical exclusion in Open Source. I assume that the Code of Conduct for llvm was written in good faith, but the continued demonization of political groups (and to some extent, white men) is troubling. Remember when no one on the internet cared what you looked like, believed, or who you loved? I want to go back to that :/

                                                                    1. 43

                                                                      Who is being excluded? How is Outreachy preventing someone from contributing to llvm?

                                                                      I remember those days too. “No one” cared because “everyone” assumed you were white, male, and college educated. “There are no women on the Internet” dates back, at least, to the early ’90s.

                                                                      As a black male dropout, that was fine for me— I could get involved. No one questioned my capabilities. And as long as I kept up a good impression of being fluent in upper-middle to upper-class white culture, I could build my skills and social capital.

                                                                      I also got beat up on the street in front of my grandmother for “showing off” how I could “talk white” at school.

                                                                      I also remember, when Pentiums were out, using a pawn shop purchased Apple IIc with a gifted modem. I also remember hacking into dial-up pools to get telnet— haha, as if my machine could talk SLIP or PPP. I remember begging friends from MOOs and IRC for a shell account. I remember having no concept of the disparity between myself and the people with whom I played games, chatted, wrote code, and made friends. They simply had things, and I didn’t.

                                                                      I don’t see a problem with choosing to give their time and their money to mentor people who otherwise might not be able to participate. There certainly hasn’t been a problem with people choosing to give their time and their money to people who look like them, sound like them, grew up with them, attend the same church as them, went to the same school as them, are friends with them, enjoy the same movies as them, play the same sports as them, and just happen to be a well-off straight white male. Just. Like. Them.

                                                                      1. 5

                                                                        I also remember hacking into dial-up pools to get telnet

                                                                        Holy crap, you and I are kindred spirits. The terminal-concentrator at the local university dropped you into a command line…you were supposed to then immediately telnet to the VAX on campus, but they didn’t enforce that. I was 13 years old and certainly not a student at said university but boy did I get around using that little trick.

                                                                        (This would’ve been like 1993. I’m old.)

                                                                        1. 4

                                                                          🙏🏾 s/the local university/Sprint/ and that was me too!

                                                                          1. 4

                                                                            It was an eight year old Amiga 1000 that my dad got at an estate sale for like $20 because it would only boot up about half the time and shut down and random intervals, hooked up to a black and white TV, with an old external 1200 baud modem and a terminal program I got off a disk on the cover of a magazine. I felt like the lord of all creation.

                                                                            Man I’m nostalgic now.

                                                                            1. 4

                                                                              Who ever thought we’d make it this far?

                                                                        2. 3

                                                                          I remember when internet arrived at my hometown. It was 1996. I am not sure such delay was related to skin color.

                                                                        3. 46

                                                                          There is no whitemend.

                                                                          Outreachy isn’t out to make a monster out of you. It’s trying to correct for GSoC. You don’t like Outreachy’s policies, a much smaller, less well-funded org than Google, then go through GSoC and Google. You have lots of other options other than Outreachy.

                                                                          The code of conduct doesn’t say anything about how white men are bad. Reading the CoC, if you object that strongly to it that you must leave, then please do! That’s the CoC working as intended. You are deciding to exclude yourself by deciding that what the CoC forbids (i.e. being an asshole) is something that you must be and defend.

                                                                          Also, one more thing.

                                                                          I wish I could explain to people who are privileged one way or another, that it doesn’t mean your entire life is handed to you in a silver platter. Being a white male doesn’t mean you can’t be poor or can’t be gay (thus discriminated) or that you can’t have a slew of other problems.

                                                                          It just means you don’t have those problems in addition to also being discriminated for being a woman, for being black, for being anything else.

                                                                          1. 5

                                                                            Reading the CoC, if you object that strongly to it that you must leave, then please do! That’s the CoC working as intended. You are deciding to exclude yourself by deciding that what the CoC forbids (i.e. being an asshole) is something that you must be and defend.

                                                                            I would disagree with that notion. I think it’s certainly possible to disagree with the CoC or parts of it without being an “asshole as the CoC forbids”. Personally and for example, I would say the “Be welcoming” clause is too exhaustive and could be shortened to “Be welcoming to everyone regardless of who they are and choose to be” which would IMO cover the same topics as it does now. The fifth clause is also way too broad and vague. A simple note that discussion not furthering the the project or it’s software, being NSFW or otherwise non-productive would have achieved the same goal and would give moderators more leeway to deal with troublemakers.

                                                                            I specifically wonder why number 6 was necessary. It’s a community of coders, if they can’t understand disagreement I seriously question what is going on behind the scenes that warrants such a rule. Does discussion derail so often into low level sand-flinging?

                                                                            Not too long ago I was member of a forum focused around LEGO robots. There were no rules of any kind but plenty of electricians and programmers around, men, women, kids and teens, etc. Everyone was happy to participate and be happy to exchange ideas and code. When there was drama the moderators enacted unspoken rules of the clearly obvious kind. If you insulted someone for no reason you got banned. Same for insulting someone based on their gender. We didn’t need rules for that. It was obvious as day that such behaviour was not something you’d do to have a productive conversation with someone about the intricacies of rubber bands vs gearing.

                                                                            1. 8

                                                                              I specifically wonder why number 6 was necessary. It’s a community of coders, if they can’t understand disagreement I seriously question what is going on behind the scenes that warrants such a rule. Does discussion derail so often into low level sand-flinging?

                                                                              Speaking as someone who has over the course of many years, moderated things on the internet. Things like this exist because otherwise someone will come along and say “but you didn’t say”. It’s an unwinabble battle, there will always be a “but you didn’t say” response to something. You try to cover the big things in a broad way so that people have a general idea.

                                                                              I’ve answered many emails as a member of the Pony core team where well meaning people write in to ask “if I do X, would that be against the CoC”. I can’t say that is how every CoC operates, but its how I like them to operate:

                                                                              Here are some ground rules. If you aren’t sure if what you are going to do violates those ground rules, maybe don’t it or ask whoever enforces the CoC.

                                                                              CoC’s are far from perfect. A large amount of that lack of perfection is that they are administered by people. Establishing some ground rules for a community is better than having none. Most communities have a CoC whether they call it that and whether its explicit. Take HackerNews, its called “Guidelines” there. It’s still a statement of some behavior that isn’t acceptable.

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                I think if someone goes down the route of “but you didn’t say” that would be grounds for getting a mute from the poor moderator they annoyed. At least back in the forum that was how it was handled. Nitpickers aren’t people who tend to keep around once the people in charge hammer them on the fingers.

                                                                                I don’t think Hackernews’ Guidelines are comparable to a Code of Conduct. HN’s book of laws is much more vague and subjective, the word “guideline” already implies a certain amount of softness. Moderators won’t stick to that word-by-word and rather apply common sense on top of the rules. A “Code of X” for me implies a certain rigidness and thoroughness that isn’t present in most of them.

                                                                            2. 14

                                                                              The code of conduct doesn’t say anything about how white men are bad.

                                                                              And yet that is how it has been applied. The organisation is funding a scholarship which is very explicitly open to people of some race/gender combinations and not others. I don’t think finding that unconscionable makes someone an “asshole”; quite the opposite.

                                                                              I wish I could explain to people who are privileged one way or another, that it doesn’t mean your entire life is handed to you in a silver platter. Being a white male doesn’t mean you can’t be poor or can’t be gay (thus discriminated) or that you can’t have a slew of other problems.

                                                                              It just means you don’t have those problems in addition to also being discriminated for being a woman, for being black, for being anything else.

                                                                              Put it this way: I would lay money that, in practice, the average Outreachy scholarship ends up going to someone who has had an easier life than the average open-application scholarship (GSoC or similar). The rhetoric of inclusion is all about underprivileged groups, but somehow the beneficiaries always end up being middle-class college-educated liberals.

                                                                              1. 15

                                                                                The organisation is funding a scholarship which is very explicitly open to people of some race/gender combinations and not others. I don’t think finding that unconscionable makes someone an “asshole”; quite the opposite.

                                                                                Races and genders which are significantly unrepresented in the field they are trying to get them into.

                                                                                There are campaigns and organisations here to try and get more male primary school teachers, because males are significantly unrepresented in primary education. Are the people running those organisations and campaigns “assholes” for discriminating against women, who represent over 84% of primary school teachers?

                                                                                1. 4

                                                                                  He said although he made hiring decisions based on who was the best teacher, irrespective of gender, it would be great to see more men giving teaching a go.

                                                                                  That’s what the non-asshole version of this kind of thing looks like. Marketing the career to a particular demographic is fine. Giving that demographic an unfair advantage is not fine.

                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                    It’s an unfair advantage that’s not even managing to negate the pre-existing unfair disadvantages that certain groups face.

                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                      It’s Simpson’s paradox in reverse: picking an advantaged member of a disadvantage group over a disadvantaged member of an advantaged group is a negative step for equality that sounds like a pro-equality move.

                                                                                2. 6

                                                                                  The outreachies I’ve seen have gone to Indian and Eastern bloc girls. You don’t see a lot of those in GSoC.

                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                    Sure. That doesn’t contradict what I said: that the beneficiaries of these efforts end up being disproportionately people from the international college-educated liberal middle class (a group that’s far more homogenous in the ways that matter than most races or genders, though that’s a separate discussion), people who have had an easier life with fewer problems than the people they are displacing, even when those people are white and male.

                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                      Let’s assume you’re right.

                                                                                      How does Outreachy working with international college-educated liberal middle class Indian and Eastern bloc girls displace anyone?

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        If LLVM is choosing to fund a scholarship with Outreachy in place of funding one with GSoC, the recipient of that scholarship is displacing the person who would’ve received the GSoC one.

                                                                                        1. 9

                                                                                          Please correct me if I’m wrong, but as I understand it:

                                                                                          • LLVM participates in both Outreachy and GSoC.
                                                                                          • LLVM doesn’t fund either programme.
                                                                                            • Outreachy and GSoC both provide funds for their own programmes.

                                                                                          So, neither LLVM nor Outreachy are “displacing” anyone from GSoC.

                                                                                          Moreover, no one even signed up for LLVM’s Outreachy! So this is hypothetical “displacement.”

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            Outreachy doesn’t fund internships, you need to bring your own funding to them. I’m not sure how LLVM is funding their outreachy internships.

                                                                                            1. 8

                                                                                              [citation needed]

                                                                                              Because, from their front page:

                                                                                              Outreachy provides three-month internships for people from groups traditionally underrepresented in tech. Interns are paid a stipend of $5,500 and have a $500 travel stipend available to them.

                                                                                              And their sponsor page:

                                                                                              Outreachy internship stipends, travel fund, and program costs are supported by our generous donors.

                                                                                              Same page, “Commonly Asked Questions”:

                                                                                              Q: Who pays the interns? A: The Outreachy parent organization, the Software Freedom Conservancy, handles payments to interns.

                                                                                              Not to make too fine a point:

                                                                                              Q: We have a company internship program. How does that work with Outreachy internships? A: Outreachy internships are completely separate from any other internship program. Outreachy organizers find FOSS communities that are willing to provide mentorship and use corporate sponsorship to fund the internships.

                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                I guess I don’t see how you’re disagreeing with what I wrote. You need to have funding arranged before you can set up an outreachy internship.

                                                                                                1. 4

                                                                                                  FOSS community provides mentorship. Corporate sponsor provides funding. Internship = mentorship + funding. Outreachy provides internships.

                                                                                                  The money from corporate sponsors goes into a pool that is used for all internships. Outreachy is a funds aggregator.

                                                                                                  When you say “you need to bring your own funding to them,” who is the “you?” It’s not the FOSS community. It’s not the internship applicant. Who is it?

                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                    Perhaps the policy changed. When I looked this up in November it was the responsibility of whoever wanted to start an outreachy program for a project to identify a source of funding.

                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                      According to the Internet Archive, in September of 2017, their policy was exactly the same. It’s the same at least back through the last GNOME Outreachy, over a year ago.

                                                                                                      Update: I deleted my follow-on questions. This is the kind of back and forth @pushcx warned about.

                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                        Did you see my other comment? Each org needs to find a coordinator who needs to find funding for their org (see under coordinator, here: https://www.outreachy.org/mentor/). That might be in terms of corporate sponsorhip, but outreachy won’t do that for you.

                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                          No I didn’t, I missed your self-reply. Sorry about that!

                                                                                                          And, yeah:

                                                                                                          Coordinator Duties Before Application Period Opens

                                                                                                          • Finding funding for at least 1 intern ($6,500)

                                                                                                          That’s clear and conflicts with their other pages. “Perhaps the policy changed” indeed. I put more weight on that page, though, than their more advertise-y ones.

                                                                                                          mea culpa!

                                                                                            2. 1

                                                                                              I understood LLVM was funding the scholarship but could easily have misunderstood. In any case it’s beside the point: my point goes through exactly the same if we’re talking about the person a hypothetical open-application scholarship would have selected or a person who was displaced as such.

                                                                                              Moreover, no one even signed up for LLVM’s Outreachy! So this is hypothetical “displacement.”

                                                                                              Isn’t it just the opposite? If choosing to offer an Outreachy scholarship rather than some other scholarship meant that instead of getting a likely-less-privileged individual they got, not a more-privileged individual but no-one, that’s an even bigger loss.

                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                If choosing to offer an Outreachy scholarship rather than some other scholarship […]

                                                                                                They also offer a GSoC scholarship, and there’s nothing to imply Outreachy replaced an alternative rather than being an addition.

                                                                                                1. 0

                                                                                                  Scholarships don’t grow on trees; surely the fairest comparison to make is offering a scholarship versus offering a slightly different scholarship. (Would you apply the same reasoning if someone wanted to offer a scholarship that was only for white people, say?)

                                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                                    I can play this game too, where “displaced” is entirely hypothetical:

                                                                                                    • LLVM has displaced compiler developers from gcc!
                                                                                                    • My drinking tea tonight displaced a purchase of beer from the bar down the road!
                                                                                                    • My mother and father each displaced every other person on the planet born before 1980!

                                                                                                    THE INJUSTICE

                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                      Um, yes, it’s 100% fair to compare gcc to llvm, tea to beer, or your mother and father to other people?

                                                                                  2. 8

                                                                                    It just means you don’t have those problems in addition to also being discriminated for being a woman, for being black, for being anything else.

                                                                                    That’s incorrect in any environment where whites or men are the minority. Human nature dictates that all groups favor those like them and penalize those unlike them. Examining the politics of non-white nations in World History or current affairs confirm those groups are just as racist in the social systems they create. Examining the actions of black administrators or elected officials show they mostly bring in people like them regardless of what the mix is in their area. The kind of political beliefs behind these Codes of Conduct and privilege assume this doesn’t happen on a large scale by non-whites to whites. The wealth of evidence disagrees with that so strongly that believing in it anyway and suppressing alternative views is comparable to a religious faith. One that damages specific groups while propping up others.

                                                                                    Another point folks in favor of those beliefs and CoC’s never bring up is how many minority members disagree with them. The surveys they usually take are almost never worded to assess how many people believe it’s something all groups do to each other. That’s because they’re biased enough to try to just reinforce their own beliefs. In my surveys, I always present both sides asking which they think it is. I rarely meet black or Latino people, majority of minority members in my area, that think structural oppression is only a white thing. It’s so rare out here. Most think all groups do it but that whites are doing it the most. That’s reasonable. Yet, under CoC’s and associated beliefs, their views would be censored as well since they’d be construed as racist (in their definition) or contributing to reinforcement of it. Likewise, any “language” or “terms” that are racist, sexist… scratch that, which their political beliefs without supporting evidence label as inherently racist, sexist, etc. That too.

                                                                                    So, I object to these CoC’s that act like a good chunk of minority members’ opinions don’t matter, that ignore the fact that minorities do structural racism/sexism all the time (by default like people in general?), ignore the fact that whites/men they’re addressing might have been the oppressed minority in previous environment (or current), and then build social structures and enforcement mechanisms on top of those damaging, faith-based beliefs. I also say this as a white guy who spent years in black-run schools living a long time in many areas of black-run city working in black-run departments and companies. If I write about my experiences or tell it like a 3rd party, the black people always think the person in the story is black saying the feelings and obstacles are what they endure. When I say they’re white, then type of people I’m countering say, poof!, none of it counts as evidence of racism. That shows it’s politically-motivated maneuvering, not consistent logic.

                                                                                    These should be fought in favor of CoC’s that don’t require everyone in America or the World to believe and speak as if one, smaller, vocal group is unconditionally right in all political claims about these matters.

                                                                                    1. 14

                                                                                      That’s incorrect in any environment where whites or men are the minority. Human nature dictates that all groups favor those like them and penalize those unlike them. Examining the politics of non-white nations in World History or current affairs confirm those groups are just as racist in the social systems they create.

                                                                                      I’m sorry, what are you talking about? I’m from Peru where ‘whites’ are a minority. They are most certainly not discriminated against, quite the contrary. Whiteness is equated to privilege to the extent we have a saying here: ‘El dinero blanquea’, which roughly translates to ‘Money bleaches’.

                                                                                      The discrimination comes from factual power, not a head count. Power which was built upon centuries of enslavement and exploitation. Exploitation most members of the white elite minimize and/or are oblivious to.

                                                                                      It is the same in other places of South America. Certainly in Brazil, where the author is from.

                                                                                      1. 6

                                                                                        I’m from Peru where ‘whites’ are a minority. They are most certainly not discriminated against, quite the contrary. Whiteness is equated to privilege to the extent we have a saying here: ‘El dinero blanquea’, which roughly translates to ‘Money bleaches’.

                                                                                        I appreciate you sharing your example where one of the minorities has power. That supports my view that it’s highly conditional. Power is one thing that ties into discrimination. Group identity is another. You don’t need centuries of enslavement or exploitation to get one group working for themselves more or against another. It can be a factor, though. Often is. I also noticed you’re mentioning countries where white armies invaded them and their upper classes, not whites in general, did coercive negotiations for trade that benefits them. In this case, it’s real but tied to who did what. You can bet a group invaded by non-whites will also develop some reaction to that group.

                                                                                        Whereas around Memphis TN, being white in specific areas won’t get them respect or power due to the slavery that happened in the South. They’ll just get a warning to leave, beat down, robbed, and/or killed. No power. Like with those that invaded Latin America, the power was with a subset of them in high places or any that could get them to act on their behalf. As a civil rights proponent in America, I assure those powerful, white people would try to squash or minimize white people like me when our interests conflict. They hate outsiders even more but I would be treated more like them than your scenario would lead you to expect. I’m still in the outgroup. Just not as far out as Latin America. Same with local blacks or latinos that control specific areas, organizations, businesses, and so on. Being white conveys me large benefits in some contexts, about none in others, kind of negative in others, and violence/death in others.

                                                                                        It varies by context is my overall point. It’s not “If white, always this. If non-white, always that.” It’s really complicated. I’m sure I have plenty more to learn about the dynamics of the many groups. Thing is, countering it my way is much simpler than trying to trace it all: being civil, going out of your way to bring in others, accepting each other despite differences, and randomizing/blinding where possible selections/promotions. Increased fairness without further discrimination or hate. It’s simple, but not easy.

                                                                                        Edit to all: Other replies will be delayed since I have to work a late shift tonight. Heading out now. Hope yall have a good day and appreciate all the civil replies so far. :)

                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                          Thank you for the thoughtful response. I get a better sense of what you were getting at. I don’t think I’m qualified to say much more on the matter, I don’t think I have a proper grasp of the dynamics of structural exploitation. But I’d like to add a couple of not fully developed ideas.

                                                                                          – Whiteness is sometimes used as a proxy for privilege.

                                                                                          – Whiteness is context dependent. My cousin from the US grew up on Pensilvania. Here he is a ‘gringo’, where he grew up he was considered far from white, being called racial slurs when growing up.

                                                                                          – It may be a better idea to talk more in other terms w/o proxies. Class politics are more relevant today than race IMHO.

                                                                                          – Even in Perú there are some contexts where you can be subject to specific instances of discrimination, but they pale in comparison to the structural discrimination that happens in the day to day basis. Which is why (in the context of Latin America at least) I view focusing on ‘reverse racism’ as a mechanism to distract from the larger and more important problem of structural discrimination.

                                                                                          also noticed you’re mentioning countries where white armies invaded them and their upper classes, not whites in general, did coercive negotiations for trade that benefits them.

                                                                                          I understand and empathize and partially agree with what you are getting at. Certainly you can’t be held personally accountable for everything action your government does. But at the same time they have to some extent the support of the general public. At best, you are turning a blind eye to the pain and suffering that supports your economy. But then again, it is our (Latin American) governments which are complicit and also responsible for said exploitation.

                                                                                          I’m the words of a mining worker, when talking to a college student:

                                                                                          – You speak of the gringos you’ve seen in Morococha and Cerro (Mines in Perú). But they are millions. Don’t generalize…

                                                                                          – So why do they send those how look down on us, cholos, not like people but like dogs.

                                                                                          Another thing, the exploitation of Latin America is not limited to ‘economic deals’ and is not something of the past (But there is more than a fair share to blame on our obsequent governments). In the 90’s US Companies hired henchmen to kill union leaders. The US Goverment (through US-‘AID’) provided logistic support for the mass forced sterilization of millions of women in Perú. Or even this decade, the US government, through the DEA, determines the policy and funds the forceful eradication of coca leaves further contributing to the impoverishment of Peruvian farmers. The Coca plant is legal here and is consumed by many in their day to day.

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            I thank you for your detailed response. That was a mix of interesting and pretty sad. I’m going to back up a bit first on one issue since I was using a simplification that you and @stephenr are showing I probably shouldn’t use maybe here or in general. I’ll have to think on it. The actual belief I have about the ingroup vs outgroup dynamic is that they’re just treated differently in a way where it’s often positive to first and negative to second. It doesn’t have to be. I was just going with common pattern since it fits both my experiences and minorities in the U.S. which is mostly the topic around this thread. You’ve both given examples where a white outgroup can be benefit from their status in other countries. Likewise, there’s examples where the ingroup is a rough position with expectations for man or women coming to my mind easiest. One of the worst examples I’ve seen is the tribe that covers people in bullet ants to prove they’re men. I’d rather be the outgroup they look down on forever. ;)

                                                                                            On to your comments on exploitation. Far as unions, sterilization, and so on, that’s a side effect of the elites controlling America. They use the media to keep folks under control fighting enemies that aren’t the main enemy. You won’t see the stuff you described on American media much. Instead, it’s stuff that shocks or lets people point fingers temporarily for quick reactions. Next wave of shock happens making them forget what came before that. Americans can’t keep track of history. They can only focus collectively a moment at a time with what’s carefully put in front of them. The parts of the government doing things like you describe are mostly autonomous working for rich and powerful. Those that get voted in do a mix of things they said they’d do and things that appear to benefit their voters with lots of publicity for both. The choices are few with the non-participation and apathy so high that government doesn’t worry about rebellion. It’s kind of a constant rehash of the same games and corruption with businesses getting laws passed benefiting them more and more every year mostly under Americans’ noses since media barely reports on it.

                                                                                            So, that’s how that works if you were wondering. When I was young, I never thought handfuls of companies and some government organizations could really control most of several hundred million people with the presence of the Internet, activists getting word out, and so on. Yet, they actually can. They’re also intelligent, focused, well-staffed, and relentless in their pursuits vs masses that are hit and miss on these things with more scattered beliefs, goals, and participation. Just like in this, those fighting over the CoC’s and such aren’t investing effort in joining together against the elites like folks did in MLK days which truly scared them enough to plot murders. If they beat the corruption, they could work law by law, reg by reg, case by case to get a lot done starting with something as simple as due process for workers (I’m union). It takes unity and focus on where the foundational problems are, though, to achieve something like that. Not to knock efforts to improve things elsewhere but we really should be almost all in on dealing with people paying bribes for damaging laws to be passed that give corrupt jurisdictions and companies impunity in their evils. It seems like so much starts right there.

                                                                                            Anyway, there’s a lot of people pulling for the folks you describe. They just feel powerless to do anything about it. Also, those that care are so few that giving up products that come from there will change nothing. So, everyone from the consumers to the traders ignore their fleeting thoughts since they need some cheap copper.

                                                                                      2. 13

                                                                                        I’m not sure how anything you’ve written is relevant to LLVM’s code of conduct. It says; be welcoming of everyone, be considerate, be respectful, don’t make violent threats. All very basic, common sense stuff that the vast majority of people don’t need to a checklist to accomplish. I’m not sure how you went from what is actually written there, to this:

                                                                                        The kind of political beliefs behind these Codes of Conduct and privilege assume this doesn’t happen on a large scale by non-whites to whites.

                                                                                        Which part of LLVM’s CoC do you think is saying this? Do you think the part about being welcoming of everyone regardless of race is non-white people discriminating against white people?

                                                                                        1. 8

                                                                                          “Violent threats or language directed against another person. Discriminatory jokes and language. especially those using racist or sexist terms Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.” (my emphasis added)

                                                                                          It’s those words that are used to block people based on political beliefs. The kinds of people that push CoC’s often have specific views about what is considered racist, sexist, etc that there’s not a wide consensus on. Any words or behavior will be interpreted in the light of their views. This is double true when they get into the moderation positions, which they often aim for. I don’t have to speculate as I’ve been banned from forums for quoting under my own name minority member’s opinions on minority issues. They were racist, sexist, etc. by their definitions. These policies interpreted however they want are the leverage they use to reinforce their own groups or eject other groups. Advocating for is the last term where anyone even debating whether something was racist or sexist might be construed as supporting the racist or sexist person. That’s happened plenty, too.

                                                                                          So, it’s the intent behind the terms along with whose enforcing them, what their beliefs are, and if they’re willing to exclude people with different beliefs on contentious topics. They usually are. So, I oppose those in favor of CoC’s without enforcement of political ideology that focus on people just staying civil, friendly, etc. Those parts of the CoC’s I have no problem with.

                                                                                          EDIT to add what I’m fine with since I’d rather not be overly critical of something that’s mostly good:

                                                                                          “be friendly and patient, be welcoming, be considerate, be respectful, be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others, and when we disagree, try to understand why.”

                                                                                          Most of the weaseling is built into that “be careful in the words you chose” part. Minus the weaseling, even quite a few points in that section are good. Also note that we don’t have to speculate given Lobsters already has enforcement that’s similar to what I’m advocating for. Our moderators may agree or disagree with people’s political views but haven’t ejected anyone for stating their views with data in a civil way. Our community is still a thriving, functioning community despite any political scuffles.

                                                                                        2. 11

                                                                                          That’s incorrect in any environment where whites or men are the minority.

                                                                                          I guess you’ve never been to Thailand. Whites are a ridiculous minority, but they’re held in such high regard by a large percentage of the population.

                                                                                          Edit: and to clarify, this isn’t the same situation as @PuercoPop’s:

                                                                                          Thailand was never colonised, has never been under ‘white’ or ‘western’ rule and was not a ‘source’ for slavery by whites, Heck, whites (without getting Thai citizenship, which, holy shit is that a long process) can’t own land, can’t own more than 49% of a company, etc.

                                                                                          Try to find some Thai soap operas on YouTube - notice how all the actors are very pale skinned: they’re all half-Thai, half-white. If they want to show a ‘poor brown girl’ (believe me, their stereotype, not mine) they literally take a Thai/White actress, and use makeup/body paint/whatever to show their version of what anyone else would think of as a ‘natural’ brown skin.

                                                                                          I’ve been stopped at police licence checkpoints, and the cop has been so excited just to say hello to a white guy he doesn’t even care if I have a licence.

                                                                                          1. 4

                                                                                            Of course structural oppression isn’t a white only thing. Anyone can discriminate against anyone. And sure, in localized areas some groups can oppress others in different ways than the average. That doesn’t mean CoCs shouldn’t try to prevent racist / sexist conduct.

                                                                                            What things do you see in CoCs that minority members disagree with, that unfairly construes their beliefs as racist? Or disregards their opinions? Or ignores that whites/men may have been the oppressed minority in their environment?

                                                                                            1. 4

                                                                                              That doesn’t mean CoCs shouldn’t try to prevent racist / sexist conduct.

                                                                                              I didn’t say that. I said it’s usually interpreted in a way where racist and sexist conduct has definitions that usually mean whites/males can’t experience the negatives, are often responsible for them (supported point in general case), and inherently have the positives. Evidence strongly counters two of those showing it has to be judged case by case, place by place, etc. For instance, the forums dominated by the types of people with that ideology make them the majority with the structural power to include, exclude, oppress, and so on. By their own definitions this is true. Yet, any person in a different group dissenting in such a place will be told they’re the “majority” with “privilege” who wouldn’t understand the… blah blah blah. Actually, at least in that context, they’re a minority getting treated worse than its majority at risk of damaging affects of discriminatory treatment. This plays out in other contexts like school, work, etc. where non-whites or non-males in the majority positions reinforce themselves at others expense. A general pattern.

                                                                                              Far as minority members disagree with, who are the minority members? That’s exactly what I mean. It depends on who you’re talking about in what context. Someone who is a minority member in one environment might be part of the privileged majority in another. The very definitions of who constitutes a minority (absolute vs conditional), what defines racism, who has privilege… these are in dispute across the nation. Many non-white and non-males dispute some of same points, too. So, starting from a specific set of views on it being true with enforcement working from there is already discriminating against all who disagree. They’ve not proven these views with evidence either.

                                                                                              Note: You can try to cheat with legal terms that one side or a group of them got in but treating the law as truth or moral is dangerous. Slavery and women not having rights were legal. So, my definitions are about reasonable categories people are in with their numbers or influence compared to groups of other categories.

                                                                                              The evidence collected on a global scale indicates that all groups in power reward their own and oppress others. So, if by evidence, this stuff will be conditional with every group monitoring themselves for bias boosting their outgroups when they don’t get a fair shake: not just whites or males being monitored with everyone boosting non-whites or non-males in all scenarios. In this country or in tech scene, the results would mostly be boosting non-whites or non-males to correct existing imbalances just on the numbers alone. No argument there. Yet, other things wouldn’t be taboo or inconsistent with the rules: a mostly black or women organization in mixed area with people in other categories having skills would be said to give more privilege to blacks/women, possibly structurally racist/sexist in hiring if ratios of workers vs supply were really skewed, encouraged to diversify, and activist action taken if they didn’t. Just like such people would do with white or male majority structurally reinforcing their own groups.

                                                                                              We don’t see this. Most of the types that push and want to enforce CoC’s frame it as one thing by definition with whites or males on high-privileged/victim-creating side in all situations. That’s dishonest. I’ll take “this happens more often than that” but not “this never happens or we should act like it doesn’t exist.” With that, they can’t eject people for disagreeing with them on what counts as discriminatory language or behavior if it’s something there’s no consensus on by people who otherwise are against a lot of clearly-discriminating behavior. Further, they might be more likely to go with diverse inclusion plus blind evaluation/selection to correct imbalances instead of ignore whites/males much as possible to only focus on everyone else. One is inherently more fair achieving a similar goal.

                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                But don’t you think that being the privileged majority in the society you live in will have more to do with shaping your experience and fortune in the world than being the privileged majority in an online message board or OSS project?

                                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                                  In the spaces I live with, my lack of privilege as a white minority in many contexts has cost me likely mental health, plenty humiliation, confusion, physical beatings, missed dates, missed jobs, missed promotions, and so on. Coworkers locally were just telling me recently about black-run classes singling them out for opposing beliefs. Things they say get an entire room screaming at them to intimidate them into silence on top of whatever penalties teacher might give. More extreme versions of this ideology are going campus to campus all over the place taking on life of their own where students are doing things like holding up signs protesting inferred problems in words or ideas of instructors that are there to help them during class.

                                                                                                  Again, I”m white male who doesn’t or can’t have such problems in a structural way according to specific groups in the United States despite the evidence of such things happening with non-white or non-male majorities. The forum example was just easier for people to see where you can tell the white male is not in control, is subject to the whims of others, and can be damaged for that. People causing outgroups problems is totally predictable in my model. That’s not the interesting thing. The interesting thing about the forum example is that the people in control who are the majority continue to describe their limited, powerless target in the same terms like powerful and majority. It doesn’t usually change as the circumstances change. It’s usually politics or religion when people’s beliefs or dictated rules don’t change when data flips by 100%.

                                                                                                  So, it’s not what they say it is or consistent. That’s enough reason to resist it. That following it would damage more innocent whites or males making them suffer as so many of us did is even more reason. You could say what motivates me to write these posts isn’t much different as what motivates those on the other side with personal experiences in racism or sexism to write their posts. It’s not “reverse (ism)” so much as all the same evil to me. Once we see and experience the evils, we have to stop them from continuing in any form they’ll take. Another thing I noticed is we seem to do it for others’ sake more than ourselves as we can’t undo what we experienced. We’ll always be a bit fucked up by it. We can maybe stop someone else from having to experience that, though. I want someone else to be everyone instead of “everyone but whites and males.”

                                                                                                  As usual, that’s on top of all the non-whites and non-males I care about and try to help. They just get a lot more attention and support than this other cause. Hence it being a focus area you’ll see me on. Plus, having been affected so strongly, that’s a motivational bias of mine on top of it.

                                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                                    @nickpsecurity, that sucks. You’ve been a victim of structural discrimination. Worse, because it’s not a politically sexy or easily visible form, people continually reject your experience. That. Sucks.

                                                                                                    In the past, if I’d heard your narrative, I’d have dismissed you by thinking something like “this white dude forgets he always has the option to leave, unlike …” But that’s unfair.

                                                                                                    You’ve been a member of these communities, for years. You’ve been a decent person. You have family, friends, colleagues, social capital, and memories in these communities. To tell you “get up, leave, move on” is to ignore the simple reality that we’re social animals and structural discrimination harms everyone.

                                                                                                    Thank you for your repeated posts on this point. At the very least, you got through my thick head. Hopefully, in the future, I can be a better person for it.

                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                      Damn. That means a lot to me you saying that. I sent a private message not long ago about your comments being interesting as usual on these discussions. More than usual with one comment about you getting beat up for talking white to presumably get ahead whereas I was learning early to talk or act black to attempt inclusion in my environment. It’s because some of what you wrote seems like you might have started in similar circumstances as me going in an opposite direction to find yourself with opposite views. Maybe a stretch to say two sides of same coin but that metaphor popped into my head at least. Then, we end up here in this moment on this forum. A trip, eh?

                                                                                                      It’s why I fight for flexibility on these topics in these discussions in wherever places I can. It’s painful and costly but the moments I learn from or reach people are worth it to me. I think those moments are critical. Probably gotta get to sleep now as I intended to. I just had to respond to that comment. :)

                                                                                                      Edit: Oh yeah, sleepy enough I forgot to say Good Night.

                                                                                        3. 16

                                                                                          demonization of political groups (and to some extent, white men)

                                                                                          I’m a white man in tech and I can count the number of times I’ve been demonized on zero fingers.

                                                                                          demonization of political groups

                                                                                          The dominant political party in this country has in black and white in its party platform a desire to make same-sex marriage illegal (while simultaneously claiming “government overreach” is a bad thing). If hearing that we shouldn’t punish gay people just for being gay makes you uncomfortable, well…it’s supposed to.

                                                                                          (That same party has in its platform a denial of anthropogenic climate change, an existential threat to our civilization; the denial of which has zero scientific backing….but no, we can’t tell them that they’re wrong.)

                                                                                          More importantly, the stuff I’m talking about above is also banned. You can’t go to a conference and talk about how “Republicans are stupid”. You’d be asked to leave or at least tone it down.

                                                                                          The problem is that a lot of people hear “don’t be an asshole” and they think “man when I tell transgender folks they’re stupid and make jokes about gay people I get called an asshole (totally unjustifiably!) and I might get in trouble. Ugh, SJW’s!”

                                                                                          Remember when no one on the internet cared what you looked like, believed, or who you loved? I want to go back to that :/

                                                                                          I’ve been on the Internet since around 1992. That’s only three years after the very first consumer ISP served its first customer.

                                                                                          Was there a large contingent of people who really did believe that? Absolutely, I mean, I was one of them. Were there plenty of racists, sexists, homophobes, and bigots of all stripes? Absolutely. Go look at old Usenet archives from the 80’s and 90’s. Racism, sexism, homophobia abound. There was a long diatribe against same-sex marriage on a Perl newsgroup for some damn reason around 1996; there were plenty of people who chimed in and agreed. Various big names in the early hacker community were famously bigoted (often hiding behind “libertarianism” while simultaneously claiming women and black folks are just inherently inferior and it’s “just science”).

                                                                                          The “good old days” are very often viewed through rose-colored glasses. People were people back then too, for all the good and the bad.

                                                                                          1. 16

                                                                                            Remember when no one on the internet cared what you looked like, believed, or who you loved? I want to go back to that :/

                                                                                            This was never true. People on the internet have always cared about who you are in ways that factor these things in. The fact that the (largely white) nerd culture contingent who had a lot of influence on the early internet has decided to tell this utopian story does not make it any more true than stories your grandpa tells about respectful children and walking both ways uphill in the snow.

                                                                                            1. 23

                                                                                              It’s less that “No one cared what you looked like” and more “Everyone assumed you were a white dude with roughly conformal beliefs, behaviors, and similar.”

                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                There’s no contradiction. Both those things were true.

                                                                                            2. 12

                                                                                              Remember when no one on the internet cared what you looked like, believed, or who you loved?

                                                                                              And look where it got us. Toxic subcultures, huge gender inequality in the workplace, software products that simply don’t work for many groups people… The field was biased towards white male hackers from the very beginning, and “not caring” only increased this bias. No, I don’t want to go back to that, I want to fix it.

                                                                                              Updated:

                                                                                              Also, “no one one the Internet cared what you looked like” simply because they technically couldn’t: nicknames and plain text don’t divulge much. As soon as we got real names and YouTube it became obvious that the majority of people care very much about how you look like. So a young girl making a guitar cover or an Ubuntu installation walk-through mostly gets “you’re hot” and “nice boobs” comments.

                                                                                              1. 16

                                                                                                People with privilege have been getting more and more outraged that the world is discriminating against them. They see it as unfair. Yes, it’s discrimination and that sucks. But it’s infuriating when they paint it as unfair, because that implies they’re somehow being disproportionately discriminated against, that the discrimination is unfairly balanced against them. And of course that’s nonsense. These privileged people, intentionally or not, feel they’re entitled to live free from any and all discrimination at the expense of those less privileged.

                                                                                                Remove yourself from the politics and think about a simple model instead of race, sex, gender, or orientation. Just group A and group B.

                                                                                                • members of group A receive 120 points a day
                                                                                                • members of group B receive 80 points a day

                                                                                                Members of group A develop a belief system that they are entitled to their 120 points. When some members of group B try to increase their points to 85, and that lowers the group A points to 119, the members of group A become angry. They say the members of group B are being unfair.

                                                                                                Group A believes that group B should not take any action that decreases their daily points. Group A compares their loss of 1 point to group B’s initial 40 point deficit, drawing a false equivalency. Some subset of A, group A’ deliberately take points from group B members around them to restore their original 120 points. Group A’ claims this is fair.

                                                                                                Group A’ bands together to institutionalize the 40 point difference. Some extreme members of group A’ even try to widen the 40 point difference. Group A’ comes to believe at an institutional level that the 40 point deficit either doesn’t exist, or is somehow natural and fair. Group A’ believes they hold the moral superiority by defending their 120 points.

                                                                                                Members of group B continue to try to elevate themselves, but A’ demands that all work done by group B must benefit group A’ equally. A’ considers this fair. Groups A and B focus on elevating group B rather than bickering with group A’ about whether 1 equals 40. Some members of both groups A and B institutionalize polite exclusion of group A’ just to simplify the whole thing, because they’re tired of bickering.

                                                                                                A vocal minority demonizes group A’ for their actions. Some members of group A find this demonization troubling. A larger and less vocal group of A and B think group A’ is a bunch of fucking douchebags, and start to actively exclude A’ rather than deal with their asinine bullshit. A surprising amount of group A wonders if this exclusion is fair or reasonable. Group B, and an increasing amount of group A, respond “are you fucking joking my ass what the actual fuck?”


                                                                                                If you’re a member of group A, please try to empathize with group B. Next time you feel discriminated against for your group A membership, take a step back and reflect on how you’re feeling in that moment. Try to imagine what it’s like to feel that way every single day of your life, at work, on the street, or in your own home through the media.

                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                  But it’s infuriating when they paint it as unfair, because that implies they’re somehow being disproportionately discriminated against

                                                                                                  I think there is more to this implication than you’re letting on, because it makes assumptions about what “fairness” actually means from the person wielding the term. You’ve assumed one definition, but perhaps someone else has another in mind. As a nominal example, consider this implication in different ethical frameworks (say deontological or Kantian ethics versus utilitarian). Is it true in all of them? Alternatively, do you dismiss ethical frameworks in which it isn’t true as nonsense or intractable? Either way, those are important assumptions to state, because your entire comment appears to rest on them.

                                                                                                  (I do wholeheartedly agree with your final paragraph, but try my best to perhaps apply it as much as possible, with a healthy dose of perspective taking on all sides. I don’t always succeed!)

                                                                                                2. 4

                                                                                                  I’m glad to see this trend of standing up against poltiical [sic] exclusion in Open Source.

                                                                                                  Me too, I just wish more people would up and leave, instead of stick around and yell about “reverse discrimination” and such. I’m definitely coming at it from a selfish angle (and concern for my friends,) I’m just really tired of people who “disagree” with us existing, at best, and actively harass us at worst. The only way I can participate in open source is anonymously, which means it’s mostly uncredited work. It’s just not worth the toll it takes on my mental health. Of course, whenever possible, I contribute to projects/communities who show that they are aware of these issues, and are actively doing something about it.

                                                                                                  Looking forward to the Incorrect, Off-topic, and Troll downvotes.

                                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                                    I think it’s a loss when someone who can write code leaves a OSS project. I also think that discrimination, which you refer to as “reverse discrimination” in certain contexts, is bad, end of story. I don’t want anyone to be discriminated against. “Contribute good code” is all I ask off people looking to work with me. Politics are boringly unproductive towards that goal.

                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                      I think it’s a loss when someone who can write code leaves a OSS project.

                                                                                                      I don’t, if they keep other people away who can also write code. I honestly can’t understand what’s wrong with participating in this, unless you believe (actual) discrimination isn’t real.

                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                        I do believe actual discrimination is real but I think discriminatory internships aren’t the solution as they only lead to problems down the road. It’s great that outreachy is doing it and I believe they honestly think it’s the correct solution but I simply can’t agree on that.

                                                                                                1. 39

                                                                                                  I don’t understand the author’s objection to Outreachy. As far as I can tell, they want to fund some interns from marginalized groups so that they can work on open-source. They are not preventing the author from working on open-source. They are not preventing the author from funding interns he approves of from working on open-source. What is the problem?

                                                                                                  1. 22

                                                                                                    Outreachy funds members of specific minority groups and would not fund a cisgender white guy’s internship. He decries this as discrimination.

                                                                                                    On this topic, the term discrimination has differing interpretations and it’s very easy for folks to talk past each other when it comes up. It sounds he’s using it in a way that means disfavoring people based on the sex or race they belong to. Another popular definition is that it only applies to actions taken against groups that have been historically discriminated against. This use gets really strong pushback from people who disagree with the aims or means of projects like Outreachy as begging the question, making an assumption that precludes meaningful discussion of related issues.

                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                      It’s not only that Outreachy would not fund a cisgender white guy’s internship. Outreachy also would not fund Asian minority’s internship. Asian minority is a group that has been historically discriminated against. Outreachy is discriminating against specific minority. In summary, Outreachy is simply discriminating, it is not using alternative definition of discrimination.

                                                                                                      (Might be relevant: I am Asian.)

                                                                                                      1. 7

                                                                                                        I asked Karen Sandler. This is the reason for the selection of groups:

                                                                                                        <karenesq> JordiGH: I saw the lobsters thread. the expansion within the US to the non-gender related criteria was based on the publication by multiple tech companies of their own diversity statistics. We just expanded our criteria to the groups who were by far the least represented.

                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                          Thanks a lot for clarifying this with Karen Sandler!

                                                                                                          I think this proves beyond any shade of doubt that Outreachy is concerned with not historical injustice, but present disparity.

                                                                                                        2. 3

                                                                                                          He had a pretty fair description of where the disputes were coming from. Far as what you’re saying on Outreachy, the Asian part still fits into it as even cultural diversity classes I’ve seen say the stereotypes around Asians are positive for stuff like being smart or educated. Overly positive to the point that suicide due to pressure to achieve was a bit higher according to those sources. There’s lots of Asians brought into tech sector due to a mix of stereotypes and H1-B. The commonness of white males and Asians in software development might be why they were excluded with the white males. That makes sense to me if I look at it through the view they likely have of who is privileged in tech.

                                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                                            Yes, it makes sense that way, but it does not make sense in “historical discrimination” sense pushcx argued. I believe this is an evidence that these organizations are concerned with the present disparity, not with the history. Therefore, I believe they should cease to (dishonestly, I think) argue history argument.

                                                                                                          2. 2

                                                                                                            Well, if you were a woman or identified as one they would accept you, regardless if you were Asian or not. I do wonder why they picked to outreach to the particular groups they picked.

                                                                                                            And you have to pick some groups. If you pick none/all, then you’re not doing anything different than GSoC, and there already is a GSoC, so there would be no point for Outreachy.

                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                              You can pick groups that have been historically discriminated against, as pushcx suggested. Outreachy chose otherwise.

                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                To nitpick, I was talking about the term “discrimination” because I’ve seen it as a source of people talking past each other, not advocating for an action or even a particular definition of the term. Advocating my politics would’ve compromised my ability to effectively moderate, though incorrect assumptions were still made about the politics of the post I removed and that I did so out of disagreement, so… shrug

                                                                                                        3. 49

                                                                                                          For those who are used to privilege, equality feels like discrimination.

                                                                                                          1. 18

                                                                                                            I think the author’s point is that offering an internship for only specific groups is discrimination. From a certain point of view, I understand how people see it that way. I also understand how it’s seen as fair. Whether that’s really discrimination or not is up for debate.

                                                                                                            What’s not up for debate is that companies or people should be able to give their money however they feel like it. It’s their money. If a company wants to only give their money to Black Africans from Phuthaditjhaba, that’s their choice! Fine by me!

                                                                                                            Edit: trying to make it clear I don’t want to debate, but make the money point.

                                                                                                            1. 18

                                                                                                              It is discrimination, that’s what discrimination means. But that doesn’t automatically make it unfair or net wrong.

                                                                                                              1. 12

                                                                                                                The alternative is inclusive supply plus random selection. You identify the various groups that exist. Go out of your way to bring in potential candidates of a certain number in each one. The selection process is blind. Whoever is selected gets the help. Maybe auditable process on top of that. This is a fair process that boosts minorities on average to whatever ratio you’re doing the invite. It helps whites and males, too.

                                                                                                                That’s the kind of thing I push. Plus, different ways to improve the blindness of the evaluation processes. That is worth a lot of research given how much politics factors into performance evaluations in workplaces. It affects everyone but minority members even more per the data. Those methods, an equal pull among various categories, and blind select are about as fair as it gets. Although I don’t know exact methods, I did see GapJumpers describing something that sounds closer to this with positive results. So, the less-discriminating way of correcting imbalances still achieves that goal. The others aren’t strictly necessary.

                                                                                                                The next scenario is specific categories getting pulled in more than everyone with organizations helping people in the other ones exclusively to boost them. That’s what’s going on here. Given the circumstances, I’m not going to knock them even if not as fair as other method. They’re still helping. It looks less discriminatory if one views it at a high level where each group addresses those they’re biased for. I did want to show the alternative since it rarely gets mentioned, though.

                                                                                                                1. 13

                                                                                                                  I really agree with this. I was with a company who did a teenage code academy. I have a masters, and did a lot of work tutoring undergrads and really want to get back into teaching/academia.

                                                                                                                  I wanted to teach, but was actually pushed down the list because they wanted to give teaching positions to female staff first. I was told I could take a support role. The company also did a lot of promotion specifically to all girls schools and to try to pull women in. They had males in the classes too, but the promotion was pretty bias.

                                                                                                                  Also I want to point out that I had a stronger teaching background/qualifications than some of the other people put in those positions.

                                                                                                                  I’m for fairness and giving people opportunity, but I feel as if efforts to stop discrimination just lead to more discrimination. The thing is, we’re scientists and engineers. We know the maths. We can come up with better ways to pull in good random distributions of minorities/non-minorities and don’t have to resort to workshops that promote just another equal but opposite mono-culture. If anything you do potential developers a disservice by having workshops that are only women instead of half-and-half. You get a really one sided narrative.

                                                                                                                  1. 9

                                                                                                                    I appreciate you sharing that example. It mirrors some that have happened to me. Your case is a good example of sexism against a man that might be more qualified than a women being hired based on gender. I’ll also note that so-called “token hires” are often treated poorly once they get in. I’ve seen small organizations where that’s not true since the leadership just really believed in being good to people and bringing in different folks. They’re rare. Most seem to be environments people won’t want to be in since conflict or resentment increases.

                                                                                                                    In your case and most of those, random + blind selection might have solved the problem over time without further discrimination or resentment. If process is auditable, everyone knows the race or gender part gave everyone a fair shot. From there, it was performance. That’s a meaningful improvement to me in reducing the negative effects that can kick in when correcting imbalances. What I will say, though, is I don’t think we can always do this since performance in some jobs is highly face-to-face, based on how groups perceive the performer, etc. I’m still uncertain if something other than quotas can help with those.

                                                                                                                    Most jobs I see people apply for can be measured, though. If it can be measured, it can sometimes already be blinded or may be measured blindly if we develop techniques for that.

                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                      I agree with these comments, plus, thanks for sharing a real life example. We are definitely fighting discrimination with more discrimination doing things the current way. For a bit I’ve thought that a blind evaluation process would be best. It may not be perfect, but it seems like a step in a better direction. It’s encouraging to see other people talking about it.

                                                                                                                      One other thought- I think we as society are handling race, gender, age, etc problems wrong. Often, it’s how a certain group ‘A’ has persecuted another group ‘B’. However, this isn’t really fair for the people in group ‘A’ that having nothing to do with what the other people are doing. Because they share the same gender/race/whatever, they are lumped in. Part of this seems to be human nature, and it’s not always wrong. But maybe fighting these battles in more specific cases would help.

                                                                                                                    2. 5

                                                                                                                      I think the problem here is that whites and males don’t need extra help. They already get enough help from their position in society. Sure, equal distribution sounds great, but adding an equal amount to everyone doesn’t make them equal; it doesn’t nullify the discrepancy that was there before. Is it good to do so? Yes, of course, but it would be better served and better for society to focus on helping those without built-in privilege to counteract the advantage that white males have.

                                                                                                                      1. 9

                                                                                                                        There are lots of people in bad situations who are white and male. Saying someones race and gender determines how much help someone has had in life seems both racist and sexist.

                                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                                          I’m not saying that it applies in all circumstances. But I am saying that they have a much larger support structure available to them, even if they didn’t get started on the same footing as other examples.

                                                                                                                          It’s not directly because of their race and sex, it’s because of their privilege. That’s the fundamental difference.

                                                                                                                          1. 6

                                                                                                                            I don’t even know how much it matters if it was true. Especially in rural or poor areas of white people. Their support structure is usually some close friends, family, people they live with, and so on. Often food stamps, too. Their transportation or Internet might be unreliable. Few jobs close to them. They have to pack up and leave putting themselves or their family into the unknown with about no money to save for both the move and higher cost of living many areas with more jobs will entail. Lots of drug abuse and suicide among these groups relative to whites in general. Most just hope they get a decent job where management isn’t too abusive and the lowish wages cover the bills. Then, you talk about how they have “a much larger support structure available to them” “because of their privilege.” They’d just stare at you blinking wondering what you’re talking about.

                                                                                                                            Put Your Solutions Where Your Ideology Is

                                                                                                                            Since you talk about advantages of privilege and support structures, I’m curious what you’d recommend to a few laypeople in my white family who will work, have basic to good people skills, and are non-technical. They each have a job in area where there aren’t lots of good jobs. They make enough money to make rent. I often have trouble contacting them because they “have no minutes” on their phones. The areas they’re in have no wired Internet directly to renters (i.e. pay extra for crap), satellite, spotty connections, or they can’t afford it. Some have transportation, others lost theirs as it died with four digit repairs eclipsing 1-2 digits of surplus money. All their bosses exploit them to whatever extent possible. All the bosses underschedule them where the work couldn’t get done then try to work them to death to do it. The schedules they demand are horrible with at least two of us having schedules that shift anywhere from morning to evening to graveyard shift in mid-week. It kills people slowly over time. Meanwhile, mentally drains them in a way that prevents them learning deep stuff that could get them in good jobs. Most of them and their friends feel like zombies due to scheduling with them just watching TV, chilling with friends/family, or something otherwise comfortable on off days. This is more prevalent as companies like Khronos push their optimizations into big businesses with smaller ones following suit. Although not among current family now, many of them in the past worked 2-3 jobs with about no time to sleep or have fun just to survive. Gets worse when they have an infant or kids.

                                                                                                                            This is the kind of stuff common among poor and working classes throughout America, including white people. Is this the average situation of you, your friends, and/or most white males or females you know of? These people “don’t need help?” I’m stretching my brain to try to figure out how what you’re saying fits their situation. In my view, they don’t have help so much as an endless supply of obstacles ranging from not affording bills to their evil bosses whose references they may depend on to police or government punishing them with utility bill-sized tickets for being poor. What is your specific recommendation for white people without any surplus of money, spotty Internet, unreliable transportation, and heavily-disrupted sleep?

                                                                                                                            Think quickly, too, because white people in these situations aren’t allowed much time to think between their stressful jobs (often multiple) and families to attend to. Gotta come up with solutions about on instinct. Just take the few minutes of clarity a poor, white person might have to solve a problem while in the bathroom or waiting in line at a store. It’s gotta work with almost no thought, energy, savings, or credit score. What you got? I’ll pass it on to see if they think it’s hopeful or contributes to the entertainment for the day. Hope and entertainment is about the most I can give to the person I’m visiting Saturday since their “privilege” hasn’t brought them much of anything else.

                                                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                                                              I’m not saying that it’s applicable in every situation; I am specifically talking about the tech industry. I don’t think it’s about prejudice in this case. I think it’s about fixing the tech culture, which white males have an advantage in, regardless of their economic background. White males don’t always have privilege, that would be a preposterous claim. But it’s pretty lopsided in their favor.

                                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                                I am specifically talking about the tech industry.

                                                                                                                                It’s probably true if narrowed to tech industry. It seems to favor white and Asian males at least in bottom roles. Gets whiter as it goes up. Unfortunately, they also discriminate more heavily on age, background, etc. They want us in there for the lower-paying stuff but block us from there in a lot of areas. It’s why I recommend young people considering tech avoid it if they’re worried about age discrimination or try to move into management at some point. Seems to reduce the risk a bit.

                                                                                                                              2. 2

                                                                                                                                Your comment is a great illustration of the danger of generalizing things on the basis of racis or gender, mistakenly classifying a lot of people as “privileged”. Ideally, the goal of a charity should be to help unprivileged people in general, for whatever reason they are unprivileged, not because of their race or gender.

                                                                                                                              3. 4

                                                                                                                                “It’s not directly because of their race and sex, it’s because of their privilege. That’s the fundamental difference.”

                                                                                                                                But that’s not a difference to other racist/sexist/discriminatory thinking at all. Racists generally don’t dislike black people because they’re black. They think they’re on average less intelligent, undisciplined, whatever, and that this justifies discriminating against the entirety of black people, treating individuals primarily as a product of their group membership.

                                                                                                                                You’re doing the exact same thing, only you think “white people are privileged, they don’t need extra help” instead of “black people are dumb, they shouldn’t get good jobs”. In both cases the vast individual differences are ignored in favor of the superficial criteria of group membership. That is exactly what discrimination is.

                                                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                                                  You’re right in that I did assume most white males are well off, and it is a good point that they need help too. However, I still think that the ideas of diversifying the tech industry are a worthy goal, and I think that having a dedicated organization that focuses on only the underrepresented groups is valuable. I just don’t think that white males have the same kind of cultural bias against them in participating in this industry that the demographics that Outreachy have, and counteracting that is Outreachy’s goal. Yes, they are excluding groups, but trying to help a demographic or collection of demographics necessarily excludes the other demographic. How could it work otherwise?

                                                                                                                            2. 1

                                                                                                                              Why exclude Asians then? Do Asians also already get enough help from their position in society?

                                                                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                                                                Asians are heavily overrepresented in tech. To be fair, the reason we are overrepresented in tech (as in medicine) is likely because software development (like medicine) is an endeavour that requires expertise in challenging technical knowledge to be successful, which means that (unlike Hollywood) you can’t just stick with white people because there simply aren’t enough of them available to do all the work. So Asians who were shut out of other industries (like theatre) flocked to Tech. Black men are similarly overrepresented in the NBA but unfortunately the market for pro basketball players is a bit smaller than the market for software developers.

                                                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                                                  Do they exclude Asians? I must have missed that one. I don’t think excluding that demographic is justified.

                                                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                                                    Do they exclude Asians?

                                                                                                                                    Yes they do. Quoting Outreachy Eligibility Rules:

                                                                                                                                    You live in the United States or you are a U.S. national or permanent resident living aboard, AND you are a person of any gender who is Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander

                                                                                                                                    In my opinion, this is carefully worded to exclude Asians without mentioning Asians, even going so far as mentioning Pacific Islander.

                                                                                                                            3. 4

                                                                                                                              It’s a simple calculus of opprotunity. Allowing those who already have ample opprotunity (i.e. white, cis, males) into Outreachy’s funding defeats the point of specifically targeting those who don’t have as much opprotunity. It wouldn’t do anything to help balance the amount of opprotunity in the world, which is Outreachy’s end goal here.

                                                                                                                              It’s the author’s idea that they deserve opprotunity which is the problem. It’s very entitled, and it betrays that the author can’t understand that they are in a priviledged position that prevents them from receiving aid. It’s the same reason the wealthy don’t need tax cuts.

                                                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                                                Outreachy’s end goal seems to be balancing the amount of opportunity in the world for all, except for Asian minority.

                                                                                                                                1. 4

                                                                                                                                  Each of us gets to choose between doing good and doing best. The x is the enemy of the y. If Outreachy settles for acting against the worst imbalance (in its view) and leaving the rest that’s just their choosing good over best.

                                                                                                                                  You’re also confusing their present action with their end goals. Those who choose “best” work directly towards their end goal, but Outreachy is in the “good” camp. By picking a worst part of the problem and working on that part, they implicitly say that their current work might be done and there’ll still be work to do before reaching the end goal.

                                                                                                                              2. 4

                                                                                                                                What’s not up for debate is that companies or people should be able to give their money however they feel like it.

                                                                                                                                That is debatable. But, I too think Outreachy is well within their rights.

                                                                                                                              3. 6

                                                                                                                                I’m not going to complain about discrimination in that organization since they’re a focused group helping people. It’s debatable whether it should be done differently. I’m glad they’re helping people. I will note that what you just said applies to minority members, too. Quick example.

                                                                                                                                While doing mass-market, customer service (First World slavery), I ran an experiment treating everyone in a slightly-positive way with no differences in speech or action based on common events instead of treating them way better than they deserved like we normally did. I operated off a script rotating lines so it wasn’t obvious what I was doing. I did this with different customers in new environment for months. Rather than appreciation, I got more claims of racism, sexism, and ageism then than I ever did at that company. It was clear they didn’t know what equal treatment or meritocracy felt like. So many individuals or companies must have spoiled them that experiencing equality once made them “know” people they interacted with were racist, sexist, etc. There were irritated people among white males but they just demanded better service based on brand. This happened with coworkers in some environments, too, when I came in not being overly selfless. The whites and males just considered me slightly selfish trading favors where a number of non-whites or women suspected it was because they were (insert category here). They stopped thinking that after I started treating them better than other people did and doing more of the work myself. So, it was only “equal” when the white male was doing more of the work, giving more service in one-way relationships, etc.

                                                                                                                                I’d love to see a larger study done on that kind of thing to remove any personal or local biases that might have been going on. My current guess is that their beliefs about what racism or sexism are shifted their perceptions to mis-label the events. Unlike me, they clearly don’t go out of their way to look for more possibilities for such things. I can tell you they often did in the general case for other topics. They were smart or open-minded people. Enter politics or religion, the mind becomes more narrow showing people what they want to see. I spent most of my life in that same mental trap. It’s a constant fight to re-examine those beliefs looking at life experiences in different ways.

                                                                                                                                So, I’m skeptical when minority members tell me something was about their status because I’ve personally witnessed them miscategorizing so many situations. They did it by default actually any time they encountered provable equality or meritocracy. Truth told, though, most things do mix forms of politics and merit leaning toward politics. I saw them react to a lot of that, too. I’m still skeptical since those situations usually have more political biases going on than just race or gender. I can’t tell without being there or seeing some data eliminating variables what caused whatever they tell me.

                                                                                                                                1. 17

                                                                                                                                  So, in your anecdotal experience, other people’s anecdotal experience is unreliable? 😘

                                                                                                                                  1. 5

                                                                                                                                    You got jokes lol. :) More like I’m collecting this data on many views from each group to test my hypotheses whereas many of my opponents are suppressing alternative views in data collection, in interpretation, and in enforcement. Actually, it seems to be default on all sides to do something like that. Any moderate listening closely to those that disagree looking for evidence of their points is an outlier. Something wrong with that at a fundamental level.

                                                                                                                                    So, I then brought in my anecdotes to illustrate it given I never see them in opponents’ data or models. They might be wrong with their anecdotes right. I just think their model should include the dissent in their arguments along with reasons it does or doesn’t matter. The existence of dissent by non-haters in minority categories should be a real thing that’s considered.

                                                                                                                                  2. 3

                                                                                                                                    I think that the information asymmetry that you had with your anecdotes affected some of the reactions you got. For one, if someone considers your actions negative in some way, they are conditioned by society to assume that you were being prejudiced. If your workplace was one that had more of a negative connotation (perhaps a debt collection service or what have you) that goes double. That’s a reason for the percieved negativity that your white male colleagues didn’t even have to consider, and they concluded that you were just being moderately nice. Notice that you didn’t have to be specifically discriminatory, nor was it necessarily fair. It’s just one more negative thing that happens because prejudice does exist. I would imagine that you would not have so many negative reactions if you explained exactly what you were doing vis-a-vis the randomization of greetings and such. I think I would discount percieved discrimination if someone did that to me.

                                                                                                                                2. 14

                                                                                                                                  Yes, it’s a ludicrous hissy fit. Especially considering that LLVM began at UIUC which, like many (most? all?) universities, has scholarships which are only awarded to members of underrepresented groups–so he’d have never joined the project in the first place if this were truly a principled stand and not just an excuse to whine about “the social injustice movement.” (I bet this guy thinks it’s really clever to spell Microsoft with a $, too.)

                                                                                                                                  1. 6

                                                                                                                                    That jab “Microsoft with a $” was really uncalled for. You have no evidnece of this. Please stop.

                                                                                                                                    1. 6

                                                                                                                                      The point is a bit bluntly made, but it’s for a reason. There’s a certain kind of internet posting style which uses techniques like changing “social justice movement” to “social injustice movement” to frame the author’s point of view. Once upon a time “Micro$oft” was common in this posting style.

                                                                                                                                      For extreme cases of this, see RMS’ writing (Kindle=Swindle, etc).

                                                                                                                                      (The problem with these techniques, IMO, is that they’re never as clever and convincing as the person writing them thinks that they are. Maybe they appeal to some people who already agree with that point of view, but they can turn off anyone else…)

                                                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                                                        I think there is a difference here. “Microsoft” is not framing any point of view. “social justice movement”, on the other hand, is already framing certain point of view. I think “social injustice movement” is an acceptable alternative to “so-called social justice movement”, because prefixing “so-called” every time is inconvenient.

                                                                                                                                  2. 0

                                                                                                                                    Without more info it seems persecution complex.

                                                                                                                                  1. 0

                                                                                                                                    How do people even pronounce FFmpeh? fuh-fuh-em-peg?

                                                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                                                      I’ve always said eff-eff-EM-peg.

                                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                                      In Homebrew the llvm package is bottled for Sierra. Bottles are binary packages. It should have been a simple download and untar, handled by brew, unless you broke something.

                                                                                                                                      Did you add build flags that prevented brew from using the default binary distribution? Why? When the build was taking forever you didn’t think that maybe your extra flag wasn’t important to test std::optional? Nome of the build options to that package are remotely necessary for most people.

                                                                                                                                      As for installing Xcode, why was your OS so out of date? Xcode has only required High Sierra for a month. You’ve had 7 months to install High Sierra. Sounds like your problem.

                                                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                                                        “You have not done the busywork Apple expects of you” should not be the OP’s problem.

                                                                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                                                                          What is OP’s problem? Having to turn on the computer? Where’s the line? At some level, we need to take responsibility for being prepared to do what we plan to do. std::optional isn’t supported by my dos box with turbo pascal either.

                                                                                                                                          1. 5

                                                                                                                                            Hopefully we can both agree that “DOS box with turbo pascal” and “last year’s version of a current system” are different situations, only one of which has any connection to the discussion at hand.

                                                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                                                              Is it last year’s version or is it current?

                                                                                                                                              This is like the inverse of the for want of a nail parable. All you wanted was to shoe the horse to send a message, but you needed to make a nail, so you needed to mine some ore, so you needed to feed the workers, so you needed to grow some wheat, so you needed to plow the field. So much yak shaving!

                                                                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                                                                A slight alteration to you tale @tedu:

                                                                                                                                                All I wanted was to try out this new nail for the shoe. I went to the nail man, and he said, but this nail needs a new hammer. See Joe. I went to Joe and Joe said, but this hammer needs a new tool shed. See Moe. I went to Moe and Moe said, but this tool shed needs a new house. So I took out another mortgage. And so it goes.

                                                                                                                                            2. 1

                                                                                                                                              “my dos box with turbo pascal”

                                                                                                                                              Oh yeah, that reminded me I had a submission about that. ;)

                                                                                                                                        1. 21

                                                                                                                                          I detest paying for software except when it occupies certain specialized cases or represents something more akin to work of art, such as the video game Portal.

                                                                                                                                          I detest this attitude. He probably also uses an ad blocker and complains about how companies sell his personal information. You can’t be an open source advocate if you detest supporting the engineers that build open source software.

                                                                                                                                          But only when it’s on sale.

                                                                                                                                          I’m literally disgusted.

                                                                                                                                          1. 8

                                                                                                                                            It’s reasonable to disagree with the quote about paying for software. But how on earth does this defense of the advertising industry come in?

                                                                                                                                            Certainly it’s possible to be an open source advocate and use an ad blocker and oppose the selling of personal information.

                                                                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                                                                              Certainly. Actually, I would describe myself in that way. But you can’t believe that, and also believe you’re entitled to free-as-in-beer software. Especially high quality “just works” software the author describes. It’s a contradiction.

                                                                                                                                              Alternative revenue streams like advertising exist to power products people won’t pay for. I don’t know many software engineers that want to put advertising in their products, rather they have to in order to avoid losing money. That’s why I happily pay for quality software like Dash and Working Copy, and donate to open source projects.

                                                                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                                                                But you can’t believe that, and also believe you’re entitled to free-as-in-beer software.

                                                                                                                                                I don’t get that sort of vibe from this article. He doesn’t seem to be entitled at all.

                                                                                                                                            2. 4

                                                                                                                                              “free as in free beer”!

                                                                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                                                                I can’t afford to have a different attitude.

                                                                                                                                              1. 8

                                                                                                                                                The act of powering up a computer, waiting for it to boot, doing some work, and then waiting for it to shut down gracefully is a barbaric ritual from ancient times. In 2018, we’re all modern and hip and just want to open up the laptop lid and get to work. Unfortunately this is easier said than done and as such it really only works reliably with the right combination of supported hardware. And even then, bugs in various layers of the OS can cause it to suddenly stop working consistently after an OS update.

                                                                                                                                                This is one of the things keeping me on MacOS. The laptops are expensive for what they are, but the Just Works factor is pretty high.

                                                                                                                                                1. 10

                                                                                                                                                  This is one of the things keeping me on MacOS. The laptops are expensive for what they are, but the Just Works factor is pretty high.

                                                                                                                                                  Have you found that to still be the case with recent models and OS revisions? That’s also the reason I’m on macOS, but it’s gotten less true for me over the past 3-4 years. The worst is that sleep/hibernate no longer seems to work reliably, and it happens on two completely different devices, a MacBook Pro (2016 model) and a MacBook Air (2014 model). About once a month, one will fail to properly wake from sleep when opening the case. Sometimes it fails to wake entirely; sometimes it seemingly wakes but won’t turn the backlight on (in the 2nd case it sometimes flashes on briefly). Usually this ends up requiring a hard powercycle to fix. Googling suggests I’m not alone, and there’s a whole pile of cargo-cart suggestions for fixing it (NVRAM resets and such). That’s by far the worst issue, but there’s a bunch of software-side stuff seemingly getting more flaky too (especially the App Store app, which sometimes requires a reboot to convince the Updates tab to load).

                                                                                                                                                  In 10 years of using PowerBook and MacBook laptops 2004–14 I never had that kind of basic functionality fail to work flawlessly, and I would’ve completely agreed with you back then, which is why I kept buying them.

                                                                                                                                                  1. 6

                                                                                                                                                    I can confirm your experience - I sometimes have the issue with waking from sleep, and regularly see the OS freezing for extended periods of time (I do have a lot of applications open, but come on, it’s 2018). The quality of software has been declining over the last 4 years. Unfortunately, I still don’t see any better alternative.

                                                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                                                      I am sorry, are you talking about your actual computer or was this a metaphor about human condition?

                                                                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                                                                        Haha, it’s true, we’re all sleepwalking through life most of the time.

                                                                                                                                                  2. 6

                                                                                                                                                    Get a Thinkpad.

                                                                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                                                                      The laptops are expensive for what they are, but the Just Works factor is pretty high.

                                                                                                                                                      So, not really expensive for what they are, given that apparently no others do what they do, reliably?

                                                                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                                                                        I wasn’t clear that I was referring primarily to the hardware - Windows 10 laptops with better specs (especially the GPU) and comparable build quality can be significantly cheaper than a new Macbook Pro.

                                                                                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                                                                                          It’s the Apple Tax: “In the end, we found each Apple machine to cost more than a similarly equipped PC counterpart, with the baseline Mac Pro being the exception. Usually the delta is around $50 to $150…”

                                                                                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                                                                                            So firstly, that’s an article from 8 years ago, that also highlights Apple machines having longer battery life, better resistance to malware, and use higher quality materials.

                                                                                                                                                            Secondly, the thread is about a feature that works quite reliably on Apple computers, but very poorly on generic PC’s running Linux.

                                                                                                                                                            So, if you want to call “better, more reliable features” a TAX, then we have to agree to label any product anywhere that is objectively better than it’s competitors, and has a higher price, “Includes CompanyName TAX”

                                                                                                                                                            Got a HP laptop that works faster than a piece of shit Chromebook? Must be a HP Tax.

                                                                                                                                                            Got a BMW that has more comfortable seats than a Camry? Must be a BMW Tax.

                                                                                                                                                            1. 3

                                                                                                                                                              Any time a person ever gave me a set of Mac specs I was able to find a cheaper Windows machine that could do the same with hardware that works well. It’s not shocking at all to me given Apple’s marketing strategy of going for high margins. They’re currently one of the most profitable companies in the world with that strategy. Whereas, most of the other vendors became something more like commodities competing so hard on things like price. Your strawman comparisons don’t change that.

                                                                                                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                                                                                                And any time a person ever said to me “I found this non-Apple machine with the same features/specs” they conveniently leave out features that they personally don’t place value on.

                                                                                                                                                                We can trade anecdotal stories all day, but the article you linked to, doesn’t really support your argument the way you seem to think it does.

                                                                                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                  Yup. Buying a product purely on paper specs instead of including things like build quality seems foolish.

                                                                                                                                                                  Macs aren’t that expensive anyways when you compare them to machines in the same class, like ThinkPads, Surfaces, XPSes, Latitudes, etc.

                                                                                                                                                        2. 2

                                                                                                                                                          The thing keeping me on macOS is being able to use Control and Alt for emacs style shortcuts for editing text anywhere (like my browser’s URL bar) because all the system keyboard shortcuts use the Command key.

                                                                                                                                                          https://jblevins.org/log/kbd

                                                                                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                                                                                            Same. Apple can’t be beaten there in the current ecosystem. It just won’t happen. Unless Red Hat acquires a hardware vendor and builds a HatBook, there’s no chance. And they won’t do that because it’s not profitable enough.

                                                                                                                                                            1. 6

                                                                                                                                                              This is basically the idea behind Librem laptops.

                                                                                                                                                              1. 7

                                                                                                                                                                If only they had gigantic truckloads of money.

                                                                                                                                                                1. 6

                                                                                                                                                                  Only way to make that happen is to vote with our wallets. :)

                                                                                                                                                                2. 1

                                                                                                                                                                  I like the idea of librem, but unfortunately I cant see myself buying a laptop without a trackpoint…

                                                                                                                                                                3. 2

                                                                                                                                                                  There are some nice vendors where this Just Works. I use system76. Dell xps developer laptops are also great linux laptops.

                                                                                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                    As a very happy Surface Book user, I’d argue you’ve forgotten about the other OS vendor.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                      I’ve had this working on a de-chromed chomebook and xubuntu for a long time, the key is using not too new hardware maybe?

                                                                                                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                        That’s definitely the key. And while I’m glad you have a setup you’re happy with and have no doubt it works for you, I doubt it works for everyone, or even a majority.

                                                                                                                                                                  1. 10

                                                                                                                                                                    Pattern matching is one of the only features I regularly feel is lacking in Ruby.
                                                                                                                                                                    There are other things I dislike or wish weren’t present, but the only missing feature is this.
                                                                                                                                                                    Combining conditionals and assignment just feels 10x better than having them separate.

                                                                                                                                                                    I even built a pattern matching library with some gross fun hacks on top of a specific namespace, thread-local singleton instance variables and caller_locations to allow for kinda-mostly pattern matching. I’m going to see if I can dig up the code, because aside from a first/rest pairing, I managed to get nested matching across Arrays and Hashes, and an Any object to match anything.
                                                                                                                                                                    Then I bumped into a Ruby Tapas video on the topic and stole the hubcaps to implement Erlang-like guard clauses.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. 6

                                                                                                                                                                      Have you looked at Qo at all? If so, any strong opinions about where it’s lacking? (Admittedly, it’s a giant hack, but it’s a pretty good giant hack.)

                                                                                                                                                                      1. 12

                                                                                                                                                                        Hello! Author of Qo here. Yeah, you’re right, it is a bit of a giant hack XD

                                                                                                                                                                        Anyways, I’d love to hear any ideas or suggestions on it. Typically I use the issue tracker to keep tabs on what I want to do with it, so feel free to jump in there as well.

                                                                                                                                                                        Admittedly I’m also the one who wrote a small-scale novel on pattern matching in the description to try and cover bases as I really really really want this feature, as evidenced by writing Qo in the first place.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                                                                                                          What do you think about the %p() or %m() syntaxes? I think they’re really ugly personally. Is it possible to make a spin on case which parses the when clauses as patterns without any special extra delimiters? You somewhat hit on that when talking about Scala style I think. Something like this maybe?

                                                                                                                                                                          match val 
                                                                                                                                                                          when [:constant, "constant", [1], variable_binding]
                                                                                                                                                                            variable_binding + 1
                                                                                                                                                                          else
                                                                                                                                                                            0
                                                                                                                                                                          end
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          If you already covered that, apologies, I read your comments quickly last night and might have missed it.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. 4

                                                                                                                                                                            EDIT Codefied my idea here - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/14709#note-6

                                                                                                                                                                            match(value) do |m|
                                                                                                                                                                              m.when(/name/, 42) { |name, age| Person.new(name, age) }
                                                                                                                                                                              m.else { |object| raise "Can't convert!" }
                                                                                                                                                                            end
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            An example practical usage:

                                                                                                                                                                            def get_url(url)
                                                                                                                                                                              Net::HTTP.get_response(URI(url)).then(&match do |m|
                                                                                                                                                                                m.when(Net::HTTPSuccess) { |response| response.body.size }
                                                                                                                                                                                m.else { |response| raise response.message }
                                                                                                                                                                              ))
                                                                                                                                                                            end
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            Original:

                                                                                                                                                                            Not a problem, there are a lot of them (may Matz and Koichi forgive me)

                                                                                                                                                                            I hadn’t quite covered it yet. That’s always been the trick about this: what should it look like?

                                                                                                                                                                            Truthfully I don’t know quite yet, but I’m working on ideas. In regards to the %p and %m I would agree with some Reddit comments that they can tend slightly Perl-ish. I’d like a more fluent syntax if possible that reads intuitively, and I don’t think that quite does it.

                                                                                                                                                                            I had initially proposed this:

                                                                                                                                                                            new_value = match value
                                                                                                                                                                              when %m(:_, 20..99) { |_, age| age + 1 }
                                                                                                                                                                              else { |object| ... }
                                                                                                                                                                            end
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            …which is quite similar to your suggestion. I’d almost consider switching the syntax a bit to something more like this:

                                                                                                                                                                            new_value = match value
                                                                                                                                                                              when matches(:_, 20..99) { |_, age| age + 1 }
                                                                                                                                                                              else matches(:_) { |object| ... }
                                                                                                                                                                            end
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            When possible I would prefer very clear words as syntax over the percent shorthands. With this you could almost amend case to look for matches

                                                                                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                              Ahhh, I hadn’t seen how binding the match results as block arguments would be valuable, but your example of using === overloads like Class.=== and Regexp.=== have convinced me. I learned pattern matching in Erlang so I was thinking about the Erlang style mostly, and I didn’t think of how pattern matching would be most useful in Ruby. Blocks are a good way to reuse the case style matching that’s already well understood.

                                                                                                                                                                            2. 1

                                                                                                                                                                              OOH I like this! You should counter-propose this syntax.

                                                                                                                                                                          2. 2

                                                                                                                                                                            I only just saw it via this proposal. Hope to find time to play with it today after work.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                                                                                                          I love solutions like this. Spam classification is interesting on its own, but laying traps for spambots really takes it to the next level in such a fun way. Of course this can be impractical for small sites that don’t have a lot of resources to design and deploy these kinds of mitigations. And naturally some people don’t find this fun at all, or the most productive use of their time. But wow I enjoy it way more than what’s probably normal.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                                                                                                            Those little Zotac boxen are wonderful–I’ve just had no luck with the bluetooth support on Debian for them. >:(

                                                                                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                              Who needs Bluetooth? Bluetooth doesn’t work on OpenBSD anyway. ;)

                                                                                                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                                                                                                Bluetooth doesn’t work on OpenBSD anyway. ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                :P

                                                                                                                                                                                I happen to have a bunch of bluetooth jam box little speakers I picked up for super cheap, as well as various exercise gear that all claims to be bluetooth compatible. I have the dream of being able to get everything talking together. :(

                                                                                                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sometimes dreams come true, you known. Cheer up, sir. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                2. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                  It used to - I’ve used bluetooth on OpenBSD - but no one gave it any love so it was deleted…

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wireless headphones!

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                      What’s that? ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. 5

                                                                                                                                                                                        Wireless headphones rule. I can never go back. I frequently stand up and walk around while working, and keeping my headphones on throughout has been heavenly.

                                                                                                                                                                                        For anyone looking to get into wireless headphones, I highly recommend the Sony MDR-1000X. Top notch sound quality, noise cancelling, 20 hour battery life, compact carrying case, optional 3.5mm input for non-Bluetooth devices, and you can buy manufacturer refurbished on eBay for $200. That’s what I did, my set came indistinguishable from new. Same experience from several of my coworkers who tried mine and bought their own.

                                                                                                                                                                                        That’s a great price for quality headphones. I bought my Audio-Technica ATH-M50 for $150, and for $50 more my 1000X beats the M50 in comfort and sound quality (with noise cancelling). The noise cancelling alone is worth $50, even if you never use them wirelessly. Truly phenomenal product.

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. 3

                                                                                                                                                                                          I’m not a fan of wireless anything tbh (except wifi). I’ve always found the inconvenience isn’t worth it. For most peripherals (e.g. mouse, keyboard, headphones), I only ever use them within 3 ft of my desk. The occasional interference doesn’t add anything, and the batteries always seem to fail at the worst times.

                                                                                                                                                                                          With wired headphones you can interchange your Amp whenever you need to, and you use a standard connector with extremely wide support (except if you’re using a newer apple device). I try to avoid bluetooth in general because of its history of security problems.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                                            Thankfully, I don’t use any wireless (nor Bluetooth, nor WiFi) devices. Wires rule!

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                                              It’s a bit mandatory on laptops and phones :P

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                                Oh wait, you’re right, sometimes I use a 2G phone! That counts. I don’t use laptops these days, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                        2. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                          They’re something I always talk about when OpenBSD fans make disingenuous remarks about the relevance of wireless technology in general. I get it, OpenBSD devs weren’t satisfied with their implementation of Bluetooth, so they axed it out out of security and sanitary concerns. I just find the attitude of “nobody needs Bluetooth” rather annoying. It is actually preventing me from seriously considering OpenBSD as a desktop OS. Why? Because wireless headphones are goddamn amazing.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                                                                                                                            Perhaps you could use a headphone jack to Bluetooth transmitter device? They look like they’re around £15 and seem to have good reviews.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Personally I listen to music ‘on’ my computer by keeping my AirPods connected to my iPhone and using Spotify on the laptop, remotely controlling Spotify on the phone. This works really well, rather surprisingly.

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                              Antoine, please excuse my trolling. I’m sincerely sorry. Wireless headphones are amazingly convenient, that’s true. OpenBSD doesn’t support Bluetooth, that’s also true. We may not like the combination of those facts, of course.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I really like all core features of OpenBSD: it’s simple, well documented, consistent, reliable, has sane defaults, etc. Obviously OS can’t do everything and stay as simple as it is. We all know that resources of the project are extremely limited.

                                                                                                                                                                                              What we can do about it? Contribute patches, sponsor the project, help with testing, etc. That’s the way it works for OpenBSD. A pretty fare and straightforward way, I’d say.

                                                                                                                                                                                              We always can (and should) use multiple systems for their best parts.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                                                                                                                                Out of curiosity, what exactly is involved in getting a bluetooth stack to work on OpenBSD?

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I’m not OS developer… yet. :) We better ask an active developer. For example, Bryan Steele.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  For context: https://mobile.twitter.com/canadianbryan/status/984785986780585985