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The article focuses on the RISC-V aspect but the website advertising the controller focuses on the fact they moved most of the work away from any CPU and into dedicated hardware. (The marketing-simplification has “heavy CPU” for their competitors and “light CPU” for themselves.)
This makes sense for acceleration. However it seems like a bold move given the number of subtle bugs found in other SSD controllers and then fixed in firmware updates.
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Has anyone seen what the other two packages mentioned in the email are/were?
(Seems even if they were accidentally installed by someone they won’t do any harm, but seems odd not to name them so people can check.)
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I found someone on reddit mentioning balz and minergate as the other two packages.
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Thanks!
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This blog post: a case study in being a jerk to someone who is being a jerk, only since Linus is a “jerk” you get off scott-free. Unsurprisingly, this is written by someone who has never contributed to the Linux kernel and who was uninvolved in the discussion he’s picking apart.
The revised email at the end does lose information. Contrary to what hipsters write blog posts complaining about, 99% of Linus’s emails are cordial. The information that’s lost is the conveyance that this is more important to Linus than most subjects.
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This comment: a case study in being a jerk to someone who is being a jerk to a jerk.
In all seriousness, I don’t believe that Gary Bernhardt is being a jerk at all. There’s a line between being critical of a piece of work and calling someone brain damaged, and hopefully, we all can see the difference.
Aside: I love when people use the word “hipster” to invalidate other viewpoints. Apparently, there are two modes of being: Being Right and Being A Hipster.
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To the unserious comment, I don’t think I was being a jerk. I called him a jerk, which I guess you could argue is a jerk move under any circumstances, but if I’m being a jerk then so is Gary.
To the serious comment, I just want to note that “brain damaged” is a meme among old school hackers which isn’t as strong of a word as you think.
To the aside, I don’t use hipster as an insult or to imply wrongness, but I do use it to invalidate his point. Gary is a Ruby developer. Linus is a kernel developer. The worlds are far removed from each other.
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I’ve put tens of thousands of lines of C into production, including multiple Linux kernel drivers. In one case, those kernel drivers were critical-path code on a device used in strain testing the wings of an airplane that you might’ve flown in by now.
I’m not a stranger to the kernel; I just left that world. Behavior like Linus’ in that email was part of the reason, though far from the only reason.
With all of that said: having written a bunch of systems software shouldn’t be a prerequisite for suggesting that we avoid attacking people personally when they make programming mistakes, or what we suspect are programming mistakes.
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Exactly. I’ve also met many people that do high-performance, embedded, and/or safety-critical code in C that are more polite in these situations. Linus’ attitude is a separate issue from what’s necessary to evaluate and constructively criticize code.
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“brain damaged” is a meme among old school hackers which isn’t as strong of a word as you think.
Yikes. That “meme” is a whole other thing I don’t even care to unpack right now.
I don’t use hipster as an insult or to imply wrongness, but I do use it to invalidate his point. Gary is a Ruby developer. Linus is a kernel developer. The worlds are far removed from each other.
Gotcha. Kernal developer == real old-school hacker. Ruby developer == script kiddie hipster. Are we really still having this argument in 2018?
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Yikes. That “meme” is a whole other thing I don’t even care to unpack right now.
“Brain damaged” is a term from back in the Multics days, Linus didn’t make that one up for the occasion. If you’re unfamiliar with the “jargon file” aka hacker dictionary, you can see the history of this particular term here: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/brain-damaged.html
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Yikes. That “meme” is a whole other thing I don’t even care to unpack right now.
Listen, cultures are different and culture shock is a thing. I’m in a thread full of foreigners shocked that customs are different elsewhere. You better just take my word for it on “brain damaged” because you clearly aren’t a member of this culture and don’t know what you’re talking about.
Gotcha. Kernal developer == real old-school hacker. Ruby developer == script kiddie hipster. Are we really still having this argument in 2018?
How about you quit putting words in my mouth? Do you really need me to explain the world of difference between Ruby development and kernel hacking? In 2018? It’s not a matter of skill. Gary is great at what he does, but it has almost nothing to do with what Linus does. The people who surround Gary and the people who surround Linus are mutually exclusive groups with different cultural norms.
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You can’t use “it’s our culture” as a panacea; calling someone an idiot, moron etc. is a deliberate attempt to hurt them. I guess if what you’re saying is, “it’s our culture to intentionally hurt the feelings of people who have bad ideas,” well, then we might be at an impasse.
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The kind of toxic exclusivity and “old school hacker culture” elitism that you’re spouting in this thread is not what I expect to see on Lobsters. It makes me genuinely sad to see somebody saying these things and it also makes me apprehensive of ever being involved in the same project or community as you. Software development today is not what it was 20 –or even 5– years ago. Today it is far more about people than it is about software or technology. You may not like this, but it is the reality.
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“old school hacker culture” elitism
Near 40, I can agree to be called old. But not elitist.
And I cannot accept to be associated with racist.Not all software developers are hackers. Not all hackers are software developers.
Is stating this “elitism”? Is it “racism”? Is it being “jerk”?
Or is just using terms properly?
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The information that’s lost is the conveyance that this is more important to Linus than most subjects.
So add “I want to stress that this issue is really important to me” at the end of the revised email.
I think that making an issue out of this particular information being lost is missing the point - that it would be possible to say the same thing as Linus did without being abusive.
Contrary to what hipsters write blog posts complaining about
You’re falling into the same trap that the post discusses. This derision isn’t necessary to make your point, and doesn’t make it any stronger - it just adds an unnecessary insult.
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(I am not defending Linus’ behaviour here, please don’t put those words in my mouth.)
I strongly take issue with American ideas of “professionalism”, and an even more so with the idea that we get to decide whether this project is “a professional setting” or not. What exactly makes this a “professional setting”? What is a “professional setting”? Why do we hold some interactions to higher standards than others?
I suspect “money changing hands” is the thing that makes this “a professional setting”, and that grinds my gears even further. Why are we supposed to hold ourselves to different standards just because some people are getting paid for doing it?
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The Linux kernel is not a professional setting. Besides, I argue that the 1% is useful, even in a professional setting - sometimes strong words are called for. I’ll be That Guy and say that people should grow a thicker skin, especially people who weren’t even the subject of the email and have never been involved in kernel development.
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If I look at who the contributors to the Linux kernel are, it would certainly appear to be a professional endeavor.
A large chunk of contributions to the kernel are made by people who are getting paid by the companies they work for to contribute. Sounds like a professional setting to me.
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Linux development is only “a professional endeavour” (which is a phrase I have strong issues with, see above) because some people decided to build their businesses in Linus’ craft room. We can like or dislike Linus’ behaviour, but we don’t get to ascribe “professionalism” or lack thereof (if there even is such a thing) to Linus’ work or behaviour, or that of any of the contributors.
Even if “professionalism” is an actual thing (it’s not; it’s just a tool used by people in power to keep others down) it’s between the people doing the paying, and the people getting the pay, and has nothing to do with any of us.
This idea that people should behave differently when there’s money involved is completely offensive to me.
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So, having a hobbyist involved means that you can be dickhead? Is that the conclusion that should be drawn from your statements?
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“I’m saying that Linus is not a dickhead”
His comments are proving otherwise given the main article shows the same information could’ve been conveyed without all the profanity, personal insults, and so on. He must be adding that fluff because he enjoys it or has self-control issues. He’s intentionally or accidentally a dick. I say that as a satirist whose a dick to people that give me headaches in real life. Although it doesn’t take one to know one, being someone whose always countering dicks and assholes with some dickish habits of his own makes what Linus is doing more evident. If no mental illness, there’s little excuse past him not giving a shit.
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Im identifying the cultural norm of being an asshole, saying it applies to him at times, and saying the project would benefit if he knocked if off. Im not forcing my norms on anyone.
Your comment is more amusing giving someone with Linus’s norns might just reply with profanity and personsl insults. Then, you might be complaining about that. ;)
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Then, you might be complaining about that. ;)
No, I’d just accept that people from different cultures behave differently.
Let’s face it, most people hate getting told they are wrong, regardless of the tone. That’s just how we are as humans.
Taking offense about the tone just seems very US-specific, as they are accustomed to receiving some special superpowers in a discussion by uttering “I’m offended”.
Some of the best feedback I received in my life wouldn’t be considered acceptable by US standards and I simply don’t care – I just appreciate the fact that someone took his time to spell out the technical problems.
Here is a recent example: https://github.com/rust-lang/cargo/pull/5183#issuecomment-381449546
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Here is a recent example: https://github.com/rust-lang/cargo/pull/5183#issuecomment-381449546
I’m not familiar with Rust, so maybe I’m missing crucial context, but I read this feedback as firm but unproblematic overall. Compared to Linus’ email:
- Comment admits that there are multiple points of view, gives case for their take on it.
- Focuses on the problems at hand rather than speculating on characteristics of any individuals involved, beyond acknowledging other viewpoints.
- Doesn’t include any personal insults.
- Doesn’t include any profanity that I noticed, certainly not gratuituous profanity.
It could be nicer, sure. But it seemed respectful, in the “you can do what you’re doing but consider these things:” kind of way…? The author event went out of their way to acknowledge being unconstructive.
To my reading it seemed closer to Gary’s email than Linus’.
To put it another way: if Linus wrote emails like this (only shorter, probably) then I don’t think Gary would have written a blog post about it.
(For the record: I’m not American, but I do fall on the gee-it’d-be-great-if-Linus-stopped-abusing-his-colleagues side of this debate.)
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I didn’t intend to imply that this was comparable to Linus’ mail, but that people who would be offended by Linus’ writing would also be offended by that comment.
It’s a slippery slide where every honest-to-go comment that expresses real feelings starts getting replaced by “this is an interesting idea, but did you consider …” corporate lingo, even if the code is horribly wrong.
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I didn’t intend to imply that this was comparable to Linus’ mail, but that people who would be offended by Linus’ writing would also be offended by that comment.
I understand this is your point, but I think there is no evidence for this. The people complaining about Linus’ conduct are complaining about specific things, and these things are not present in the comment you linked.
Did anyone in the Rust community (generally considered a “nicer” community than kernel development) raise concerns about this comment?
There is a difference between “not overtly nice” and “openly abusive”, even accounting for cultural context.
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Then you and I arent that different in how we look at stuff. Ive just layered on top of it a push for project owners to do what’s most effective on social side.
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These numbers suggest it is a professional endeavor:
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Linus himself is working in a professional capacity. He’s employed by the Linux Foundation to work on Linux. The fact he is employed to work on an open source project that he founded doesn’t make that situation non-professional.
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projectgus
2 months ago
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link
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zapcc: A Caching, C++ Compiler Based On Clang for Faster Compiles
For more details about “how” zapcc caches (at a high level), there are some talk slides in a PDF in the repo: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/yrnkrn/zapcc/51f37ca2b46b48862d7dec4010f06f50483433d9/docs/zapcc/catc17-zapcc-an-accelerating-c-compiler.pdf
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That’s great. Thanks for the link!
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No worries. I got to the end of the README and went digging around for some more high-level details of what zapcc was doing, noticed that.
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No, caching is disabled for C files.
…any idea why? I wouldn’t expect a huge speedup, because C headers aren’t entirely insane, but it seems an odd decision.
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I noticed that the 2015 mailing list post says .c files are cached, so some time between then and the 2018 public release it was disabled for C.
If I had to guess, the actual parsing pass is always going to be a lot less complex for C vs C++, so a simpler approach like ccache’s may get similar gains for less overhead generating & maintaining the actual cache.
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I agree. I push caching as the general rule if checking if it’s in the cache costs less than the time to compile the file. I’d think that was true for most languages.
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Yes. The only thing we need to unlock the lock is to know the BLE MAC address. The BLE MAC address that is broadcast by the lock.
Wow, that’s awful! I wonder if anyone has some good lock recommendations that have passed testing with good marks?
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You should see the mechanical lock they have that flings extra keys at anyone who rings the doorbell.
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Also, according to the author the Tapplock was easier to cut than a normal hardware store padlock: https://twitter.com/cybergibbons/status/1007144017149063168
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the cheapest normal lock they have at the corner drugstore
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Wow, what a rant. I’m very sympathetic to “people should be able to control their devices”, but this rant is missing a number of key factors:
- The author’s assertion that this has to be inserted as an NSA backdoor is a link to them ranting about NSA backdoors on IRC. Yes, “just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean noone is out to get you”. But it also doesn’t prove they necessarily are…
- The author ignores the fact ChromeOS has a security model (and actual, real, historical consumer-level threats to desktop computer users that they are trying to mitigate).
- They also seemingly ignore the fact that a 100% open device belongs to everyone who wants to own it, not just everyone with access to Google’s signing keys. The current device requires you to trust Google, their ideal seems to require you to trust everyone.
- The author ignores the fact that a quick look at the published cr50 firmware source shows that there are a number of things a Rockchip-based laptop needs from some external microcontroller of this kind, aside from TPM-like functionality (power sequencing, battery gas gauge, etc).
In other words, there are clear and obvious reasons (security and basic functionality) why a small management microcontroller like this needs to exist in a laptop (without requiring an NSA conspiracy to insert it.)
At the same time, I totally agree that it would have been great & less problematic if Google had provided a way for advanced users (who understand the associated risks and loss of security) to disable the TPM-like functionality of this chip (ie Android bootloader unlock or older ChromeOS style). Or even better to provision their own signing key. It’s a shame they didn’t do this[*], although not too surprising given the market demand.
[*] It’s worth noting that even if they had done this, the OP wouldn’t be happy because they still can’t audit the rest of the H1 chip’s firmware, build their own, etc. This is a fair enough concern, but it’s hard to see how Google can mitigate that without either finding a TPM-like chip with a fully open source SDK (…), or provisioning two microcontrollers so it’s possible to physically disable the TPM chip entirely but still have a chip to monitor the battery voltage, make the power button work, etc.
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Honestly, part of me would like to see more open-sourcing of these types of security/management chips and ways for knowledgeable users to disable these things. However, it seems that for every user who is genuinely qualified to do these things and decides to do them, there are from 10 to 100 users who can be convinced to go through the unlock process to see some dancing bunnies or something. For every user who is mad that someone else can unlock their system somehow through some Corporate-controlled process, there are 100 users who will forget all of their passwords and get mad that their hardware is now a brick because nobody can help them unlock it. Possibly including the original user mad at corporate backdoors.
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One more piece of paranoia still annoying me:
master the I2C bus, on which, among other things, are to be found the sound card’s microphone
- The cr50 driver they link doesn’t support multi-master, so any I2C bus that the H1 is on is not shared with the main CPU. If the digital microphone is controlled from the main CPU’s i2c bus, it’s on a different physical bus.
- I2C (at least the 400kHz version here) doesn’t have a high enough data rate to carry real-time audio. So even if the H1 chip was on the same I2C bus and the H1 could send a control command to turn it on, something would have to be listening in the Linux CPU to capture the audio. And if you’ve already owned the Linux CPU to the point you can enable audio capture, you can probably turn the mic on without separately owning the H1 chip…
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Streaming data via I2C (especially on a shared bus with other devices) would still be a massively inefficient way to do this. I’d be surprised if there’s a digital microphone manufacturer who has chosen this over I2S.
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The Gopher proxy is neat! Would be good to see a picture, though.
As someone who has designed hardware I was a little disappointed that “from scratch” means “from an SBC and some off the shelf modules”. I was hoping for another Novena-like project. This is very accessible, though, which is awesome.
preferably not from China. China < Taiwan < Korea < Japan < USA in terms of reliability
This seems like an unnecessary generalisation. Yes, you can buy dirt cheap stuff from China and often that stuff is rubbish quality. You can also buy good quality stuff from China (just maybe not on Aliexpress for $0.50 with Free Shipping). You’ll also probably find a lot of the things you order from a “USA” vendor is made in China, or assembled from parts made in China.
Wire all those batteries in parallel. Soldering them will take some work, but don’t give up. You might break some batteries. Don’t charge or discharge the batteries too much when soldering, or you will reduce the battery life. Watch out for electric shocks, especially considering that soldering irons are conductive. Some people have had better luck with welding the batteries than soldering them.
I’m glad this worked for you, but telling people to solder Lithium cells (especially in an environment where they may short them) is very dangerous advice. You’re not supposed to ever solder these. At best you may damage the cell, at worst you may damage the cell in a way which leads to a fire.
Connecting random Li-Ion cells in parallel is also potentially risky. Battery pack manufacturers match the cells closely to avoid mismatch problems. If someone following your instructions hasn’t correctly equalised the cell voltages ahead of time then the connection may lead to dangerously high inrush currents (basically a short) as the cells try to equalise voltage. Differences in internal resistance can lead to uneven charging. Again, I’m glad it worked for you but it’s not safe advice to be handing out. More information can be found here.
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You’ve got excellent points. You’re right about “China < Taiwan < Korea < Japan < USA in terms of reliability” being a generalization. I’m typing this on a ThinkPad X60T (a Chinese product), which is one of the best laptops I’ve ever had, but that is the exception and not the rule. I included the advice because I would have liked to hear it repeatedly before multiple electronics projects. I would have saved money by getting stuff that worked from the get-go.
I used batteries from another battery pack, which was still functioning, but didn’t have the thing it powered anymore. The battery cells still had the nickel strips on them, but they were not in the arrangement I needed. Your advice is correct, and I shouldn’t assume that people have that optimal setup. Maybe I should just tell people to cut away what they need from an ebike battery or something. I will definitely add that the cells should be from the same batch, as that is something I forgot to mention.
I would love to make a laptop that is really “from scratch” one day. I’m thinking of making something like an e-ink display, but instead of being eletrostatic, it would be magnetic (I don’t know if it would even work). Send me an email if you want details (dabmancer@dread.life). Since keyboards are pretty simple; I would probably get away with a good pcb without spending too much money. A motherboard, on the other hand, is something I don’t know how to cheaply get just one of. If you know some place that could do it, please email me (dabmancer@dread.life). I don’t suspect to get this done within the next few years.
Edit: It is much more important that the batteries are the same type when putting them in series than in parallel, though you still have a point.
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projectgus
edited
3 months ago
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The ecosystem of React Native can be improved, beyond technically
Finally, like Jeff Geerling spoke out, ‘No’ should be default response for pull requests.
There’s a (quite radical) alternative approach to this, Pieter Hintjens called it Optimistic Merging. Outlined here: http://hintjens.com/blog:106
The Optimistic Merging goal is to maximise contributor engagement. The concept gels a bit with the philosophy of “Maximise Drive-By Contributors”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3ie1duhpCg
(I’m not trying to start a flame war here. Optimistic Merging is not a philosophy I have ever tried out. In fact it makes me quite uncomfortable to think about embracing it wholesale. However I think it’s very interesting to consider the trade-offs between the two approaches, especially in different sized projects.)
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I tried doing this a bit by moving to fastmail…. but really basic stuff like calendar syncing was way more flaky (needed to install an app just for calDAV sync + reopen it to activate the service on each phone reboot). Stuff like directions through Google Maps are so much better too.
Firefox on Android is what I use too (mainly for the “open page without switching to app” feature), but it’s most definitely slower than Chrome too.
So many Google services, despite their issues, are really good compared to the competition. I would really love for there to be a “real company” out there that offers their breadth of services, but as something paid/maintained/polished.
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basic stuff like calendar syncing was way more flaky
What sync app did you use? I’ve been on Fastmail for about 18 months, but only moved my calendars from Google this week. So far with DavDroid syncing has been seamless, including after an Android LineageOS update. touches wood
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I’m sad after reading these comments.
I understand and respect his decision, and these comments themselves are the very evidence why he is right. How about having OpenSource simply about openness and source? Why do politics and ideologies have to always appear?
Maybe a new manifesto is needed, much like the Agile manifesto:
- Individuals and interactions over group identities and categories of people
- Working software over ideologies and codes of conduct
- Respecting each other regardless anything
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Perhaps the point is that some people would like a safe space for focusing on technical matters rather than every single open source and free software community getting politically co-opted into a culture war.
Wanting a community focused on technical work and otherwise treating people equitably isn’t “apolitical”, you’re right, but that doesn’t make it invalid.
I choose to focus on helping people who came from a similarly disadvantaged background as myself but that’s something I do on my own time and money. I don’t impose it on the software communities I participate in.
I think we need the diversity of participants in free software represented in the communities and organizations. Were that the case, I think I would see more diversity in organizational structures, conduct standards, explicit goals, etc. What I perceive is a corporate-funded monoculture that is getting a bit creepy in the demands placed on others that don’t want to participate.
I’m also starting to notice a social intelligence / neurotypical punching-down in these threads where someone who is less adept at adopting the politically convenient argot of the day gets excoriated for trying to express their discomfort in their own words. It makes me deeply uncomfortable how the members of this community conduct themselves in these threads.
Some of my favorite communities are very engaged with the issues of access in ways that are in keeping with the zeitgeist (e.g. Rust) and do great work in part because of that. Some of my other favorite communities have a different emphasis or approach. I’d like them to co-exist peaceably and for people to do what they are most passionate about, whatever form that takes.
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You may be right. But what I wanted to express is: I have my ideologies, just like anybody else does, but I believe that open source should only have one ideology, which is about software, collaboration, and not people, or other ideologies. For my taste even the GNU project is too political in many aspects, but on the other hand they have some great pieces of software and those are often governed and built in a great atmosphere. (I can recall a single notable “scandal” that reached me, but the community was generally welcoming, as it is for most software projects.)
Edit: Or to rephrase it even more: ideology is a system of thought covering most aspects of (human) life. I beleive everyone has a personal world view, that is closer to some pre-canned ideology than to others. Yet software projects should have ideologies of software lifecycle, not of human lifecycle, and those can be very well separated, as my personal life and life at my work can also be separated.
The etiquette of the global human civilization should be enough to cover the human-human interaction part of the collaboration, as it is for professional interaction in my experience with colleagues from all over the world. We share our vision about software, quality, and work together, while we may disagree on plenty of things, which have no place in the discussion about a software project.
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I’m genuinely sorry about that. :(
Unfortunately, some topics always bring out discussion that highlights the leaky abstraction of other lobsters as purely technical beings.
It’s the strongest argument against certain forms of content here.
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One of the goals of open source movements is bringing in new people. I don’t think that’s a particularly contentious goal.
Outreachy is one organization that embodies particular ideas about how best to do that. It’s true those ideas are politically charged, but they’re in service of a goal that is agreed upon. So you can’t effectively pursue the goal of getting new people into open source without taking some kind of stance on the political questions.
Some political questions (what is the optimal US tax policy) are more or less irrelevant to open source. But others are so pervasive that they can’t be ignored, except by creating a tacit consensus. Even the idea that we should respect each other creates conflicts where people have sufficiently different ideas about what respect means.
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These goals promote the production of “high quality programs” as well as “working cooperatively with other similarly minded people” to improve open-source technology.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_software_movement
Bringing a specific political agenda to an open source project violates the similarly minded people, or can have the effect of pushing away differently minded people. This is not what respect means in my opinion. I have worked a lot wit differently minded people, and we got along, as we were focusing on the goals. The goals were creating software, not changing society or a community. This moving goalposts is what is bad for OpenSource in my opinion.
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“Apolitical” open source has turned out to be overwhelmingly white and male - significantly more than even the broader software industry. Reference.
I don’t think there’s any evidence that this demographic skew is deliberate. However once a group is dominated by a certain demographic then it’s easy for people to get the message that this is “not for them”, even if noone says this (and especially if some “bad apples” do).
I believe that there’s nothing about being white and male that makes the best possible open source software developers, so this demographic skew is a bug not a feature. I believe that the best possible open source community is the one with the biggest group of committed (to creating open source) people involved.
With this in mind, what can be done to encourage more diversity and bring more people in? There’s no evidence that the status quo (“focus on tech”, etc) will change by itself.
pushing away differently minded people
The only people the LLVM CoC will push out is people who repeatedly violate it (and by doing so that person is pushing out other people). Outreachy is bringing people in, it doesn’t push anyone out.
Someone decided to leave because aspects of the project no longer meshed with their political world view. You see this as “pushed out”, but I don’t really see who is pushing them here (unless there are some CoC violations we don’t know about or something, but AFAIK there aren’t).
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I don’t understand the author’s objection to Outreachy. As far as I can tell, they want to fund some interns from marginalized groups so that they can work on open-source. They are not preventing the author from working on open-source. They are not preventing the author from funding interns he approves of from working on open-source. What is the problem?
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Outreachy funds members of specific minority groups and would not fund a cisgender white guy’s internship. He decries this as discrimination.
On this topic, the term discrimination has differing interpretations and it’s very easy for folks to talk past each other when it comes up. It sounds he’s using it in a way that means disfavoring people based on the sex or race they belong to. Another popular definition is that it only applies to actions taken against groups that have been historically discriminated against. This use gets really strong pushback from people who disagree with the aims or means of projects like Outreachy as begging the question, making an assumption that precludes meaningful discussion of related issues.
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It’s not only that Outreachy would not fund a cisgender white guy’s internship. Outreachy also would not fund Asian minority’s internship. Asian minority is a group that has been historically discriminated against. Outreachy is discriminating against specific minority. In summary, Outreachy is simply discriminating, it is not using alternative definition of discrimination.
(Might be relevant: I am Asian.)
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I asked Karen Sandler. This is the reason for the selection of groups:
<karenesq> JordiGH: I saw the lobsters thread. the expansion within the US to the non-gender related criteria was based on the publication by multiple tech companies of their own diversity statistics. We just expanded our criteria to the groups who were by far the least represented.
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He had a pretty fair description of where the disputes were coming from. Far as what you’re saying on Outreachy, the Asian part still fits into it as even cultural diversity classes I’ve seen say the stereotypes around Asians are positive for stuff like being smart or educated. Overly positive to the point that suicide due to pressure to achieve was a bit higher according to those sources. There’s lots of Asians brought into tech sector due to a mix of stereotypes and H1-B. The commonness of white males and Asians in software development might be why they were excluded with the white males. That makes sense to me if I look at it through the view they likely have of who is privileged in tech.
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Yes, it makes sense that way, but it does not make sense in “historical discrimination” sense pushcx argued. I believe this is an evidence that these organizations are concerned with the present disparity, not with the history. Therefore, I believe they should cease to (dishonestly, I think) argue history argument.
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Well, if you were a woman or identified as one they would accept you, regardless if you were Asian or not. I do wonder why they picked to outreach to the particular groups they picked.
And you have to pick some groups. If you pick none/all, then you’re not doing anything different than GSoC, and there already is a GSoC, so there would be no point for Outreachy.
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To nitpick, I was talking about the term “discrimination” because I’ve seen it as a source of people talking past each other, not advocating for an action or even a particular definition of the term. Advocating my politics would’ve compromised my ability to effectively moderate, though incorrect assumptions were still made about the politics of the post I removed and that I did so out of disagreement, so… shrug
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I think the author’s point is that offering an internship for only specific groups is discrimination. From a certain point of view, I understand how people see it that way. I also understand how it’s seen as fair. Whether that’s really discrimination or not is up for debate.
What’s not up for debate is that companies or people should be able to give their money however they feel like it. It’s their money. If a company wants to only give their money to Black Africans from Phuthaditjhaba, that’s their choice! Fine by me!
Edit: trying to make it clear I don’t want to debate, but make the money point.
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The alternative is inclusive supply plus random selection. You identify the various groups that exist. Go out of your way to bring in potential candidates of a certain number in each one. The selection process is blind. Whoever is selected gets the help. Maybe auditable process on top of that. This is a fair process that boosts minorities on average to whatever ratio you’re doing the invite. It helps whites and males, too.
That’s the kind of thing I push. Plus, different ways to improve the blindness of the evaluation processes. That is worth a lot of research given how much politics factors into performance evaluations in workplaces. It affects everyone but minority members even more per the data. Those methods, an equal pull among various categories, and blind select are about as fair as it gets. Although I don’t know exact methods, I did see GapJumpers describing something that sounds closer to this with positive results. So, the less-discriminating way of correcting imbalances still achieves that goal. The others aren’t strictly necessary.
The next scenario is specific categories getting pulled in more than everyone with organizations helping people in the other ones exclusively to boost them. That’s what’s going on here. Given the circumstances, I’m not going to knock them even if not as fair as other method. They’re still helping. It looks less discriminatory if one views it at a high level where each group addresses those they’re biased for. I did want to show the alternative since it rarely gets mentioned, though.
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I really agree with this. I was with a company who did a teenage code academy. I have a masters, and did a lot of work tutoring undergrads and really want to get back into teaching/academia.
I wanted to teach, but was actually pushed down the list because they wanted to give teaching positions to female staff first. I was told I could take a support role. The company also did a lot of promotion specifically to all girls schools and to try to pull women in. They had males in the classes too, but the promotion was pretty bias.
Also I want to point out that I had a stronger teaching background/qualifications than some of the other people put in those positions.
I’m for fairness and giving people opportunity, but I feel as if efforts to stop discrimination just lead to more discrimination. The thing is, we’re scientists and engineers. We know the maths. We can come up with better ways to pull in good random distributions of minorities/non-minorities and don’t have to resort to workshops that promote just another equal but opposite mono-culture. If anything you do potential developers a disservice by having workshops that are only women instead of half-and-half. You get a really one sided narrative.
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I appreciate you sharing that example. It mirrors some that have happened to me. Your case is a good example of sexism against a man that might be more qualified than a women being hired based on gender. I’ll also note that so-called “token hires” are often treated poorly once they get in. I’ve seen small organizations where that’s not true since the leadership just really believed in being good to people and bringing in different folks. They’re rare. Most seem to be environments people won’t want to be in since conflict or resentment increases.
In your case and most of those, random + blind selection might have solved the problem over time without further discrimination or resentment. If process is auditable, everyone knows the race or gender part gave everyone a fair shot. From there, it was performance. That’s a meaningful improvement to me in reducing the negative effects that can kick in when correcting imbalances. What I will say, though, is I don’t think we can always do this since performance in some jobs is highly face-to-face, based on how groups perceive the performer, etc. I’m still uncertain if something other than quotas can help with those.
Most jobs I see people apply for can be measured, though. If it can be measured, it can sometimes already be blinded or may be measured blindly if we develop techniques for that.
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I agree with these comments, plus, thanks for sharing a real life example. We are definitely fighting discrimination with more discrimination doing things the current way. For a bit I’ve thought that a blind evaluation process would be best. It may not be perfect, but it seems like a step in a better direction. It’s encouraging to see other people talking about it.
One other thought- I think we as society are handling race, gender, age, etc problems wrong. Often, it’s how a certain group ‘A’ has persecuted another group ‘B’. However, this isn’t really fair for the people in group ‘A’ that having nothing to do with what the other people are doing. Because they share the same gender/race/whatever, they are lumped in. Part of this seems to be human nature, and it’s not always wrong. But maybe fighting these battles in more specific cases would help.
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I think the problem here is that whites and males don’t need extra help. They already get enough help from their position in society. Sure, equal distribution sounds great, but adding an equal amount to everyone doesn’t make them equal; it doesn’t nullify the discrepancy that was there before. Is it good to do so? Yes, of course, but it would be better served and better for society to focus on helping those without built-in privilege to counteract the advantage that white males have.
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I’m not saying that it applies in all circumstances. But I am saying that they have a much larger support structure available to them, even if they didn’t get started on the same footing as other examples.
It’s not directly because of their race and sex, it’s because of their privilege. That’s the fundamental difference.
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I don’t even know how much it matters if it was true. Especially in rural or poor areas of white people. Their support structure is usually some close friends, family, people they live with, and so on. Often food stamps, too. Their transportation or Internet might be unreliable. Few jobs close to them. They have to pack up and leave putting themselves or their family into the unknown with about no money to save for both the move and higher cost of living many areas with more jobs will entail. Lots of drug abuse and suicide among these groups relative to whites in general. Most just hope they get a decent job where management isn’t too abusive and the lowish wages cover the bills. Then, you talk about how they have “a much larger support structure available to them” “because of their privilege.” They’d just stare at you blinking wondering what you’re talking about.
Put Your Solutions Where Your Ideology Is
Since you talk about advantages of privilege and support structures, I’m curious what you’d recommend to a few laypeople in my white family who will work, have basic to good people skills, and are non-technical. They each have a job in area where there aren’t lots of good jobs. They make enough money to make rent. I often have trouble contacting them because they “have no minutes” on their phones. The areas they’re in have no wired Internet directly to renters (i.e. pay extra for crap), satellite, spotty connections, or they can’t afford it. Some have transportation, others lost theirs as it died with four digit repairs eclipsing 1-2 digits of surplus money. All their bosses exploit them to whatever extent possible. All the bosses underschedule them where the work couldn’t get done then try to work them to death to do it. The schedules they demand are horrible with at least two of us having schedules that shift anywhere from morning to evening to graveyard shift in mid-week. It kills people slowly over time. Meanwhile, mentally drains them in a way that prevents them learning deep stuff that could get them in good jobs. Most of them and their friends feel like zombies due to scheduling with them just watching TV, chilling with friends/family, or something otherwise comfortable on off days. This is more prevalent as companies like Khronos push their optimizations into big businesses with smaller ones following suit. Although not among current family now, many of them in the past worked 2-3 jobs with about no time to sleep or have fun just to survive. Gets worse when they have an infant or kids.
This is the kind of stuff common among poor and working classes throughout America, including white people. Is this the average situation of you, your friends, and/or most white males or females you know of? These people “don’t need help?” I’m stretching my brain to try to figure out how what you’re saying fits their situation. In my view, they don’t have help so much as an endless supply of obstacles ranging from not affording bills to their evil bosses whose references they may depend on to police or government punishing them with utility bill-sized tickets for being poor. What is your specific recommendation for white people without any surplus of money, spotty Internet, unreliable transportation, and heavily-disrupted sleep?
Think quickly, too, because white people in these situations aren’t allowed much time to think between their stressful jobs (often multiple) and families to attend to. Gotta come up with solutions about on instinct. Just take the few minutes of clarity a poor, white person might have to solve a problem while in the bathroom or waiting in line at a store. It’s gotta work with almost no thought, energy, savings, or credit score. What you got? I’ll pass it on to see if they think it’s hopeful or contributes to the entertainment for the day. Hope and entertainment is about the most I can give to the person I’m visiting Saturday since their “privilege” hasn’t brought them much of anything else.
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I’m not saying that it’s applicable in every situation; I am specifically talking about the tech industry. I don’t think it’s about prejudice in this case. I think it’s about fixing the tech culture, which white males have an advantage in, regardless of their economic background. White males don’t always have privilege, that would be a preposterous claim. But it’s pretty lopsided in their favor.
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I am specifically talking about the tech industry.
It’s probably true if narrowed to tech industry. It seems to favor white and Asian males at least in bottom roles. Gets whiter as it goes up. Unfortunately, they also discriminate more heavily on age, background, etc. They want us in there for the lower-paying stuff but block us from there in a lot of areas. It’s why I recommend young people considering tech avoid it if they’re worried about age discrimination or try to move into management at some point. Seems to reduce the risk a bit.
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Your comment is a great illustration of the danger of generalizing things on the basis of racis or gender, mistakenly classifying a lot of people as “privileged”. Ideally, the goal of a charity should be to help unprivileged people in general, for whatever reason they are unprivileged, not because of their race or gender.
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“It’s not directly because of their race and sex, it’s because of their privilege. That’s the fundamental difference.”
But that’s not a difference to other racist/sexist/discriminatory thinking at all. Racists generally don’t dislike black people because they’re black. They think they’re on average less intelligent, undisciplined, whatever, and that this justifies discriminating against the entirety of black people, treating individuals primarily as a product of their group membership.
You’re doing the exact same thing, only you think “white people are privileged, they don’t need extra help” instead of “black people are dumb, they shouldn’t get good jobs”. In both cases the vast individual differences are ignored in favor of the superficial criteria of group membership. That is exactly what discrimination is.
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You’re right in that I did assume most white males are well off, and it is a good point that they need help too. However, I still think that the ideas of diversifying the tech industry are a worthy goal, and I think that having a dedicated organization that focuses on only the underrepresented groups is valuable. I just don’t think that white males have the same kind of cultural bias against them in participating in this industry that the demographics that Outreachy have, and counteracting that is Outreachy’s goal. Yes, they are excluding groups, but trying to help a demographic or collection of demographics necessarily excludes the other demographic. How could it work otherwise?
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Asians are heavily overrepresented in tech. To be fair, the reason we are overrepresented in tech (as in medicine) is likely because software development (like medicine) is an endeavour that requires expertise in challenging technical knowledge to be successful, which means that (unlike Hollywood) you can’t just stick with white people because there simply aren’t enough of them available to do all the work. So Asians who were shut out of other industries (like theatre) flocked to Tech. Black men are similarly overrepresented in the NBA but unfortunately the market for pro basketball players is a bit smaller than the market for software developers.
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Do they exclude Asians?
Yes they do. Quoting Outreachy Eligibility Rules:
You live in the United States or you are a U.S. national or permanent resident living aboard, AND you are a person of any gender who is Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander
In my opinion, this is carefully worded to exclude Asians without mentioning Asians, even going so far as mentioning Pacific Islander.
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It’s a simple calculus of opprotunity. Allowing those who already have ample opprotunity (i.e. white, cis, males) into Outreachy’s funding defeats the point of specifically targeting those who don’t have as much opprotunity. It wouldn’t do anything to help balance the amount of opprotunity in the world, which is Outreachy’s end goal here.
It’s the author’s idea that they deserve opprotunity which is the problem. It’s very entitled, and it betrays that the author can’t understand that they are in a priviledged position that prevents them from receiving aid. It’s the same reason the wealthy don’t need tax cuts.
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Each of us gets to choose between doing good and doing best. The x is the enemy of the y. If Outreachy settles for acting against the worst imbalance (in its view) and leaving the rest that’s just their choosing good over best.
You’re also confusing their present action with their end goals. Those who choose “best” work directly towards their end goal, but Outreachy is in the “good” camp. By picking a worst part of the problem and working on that part, they implicitly say that their current work might be done and there’ll still be work to do before reaching the end goal.
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I’m not going to complain about discrimination in that organization since they’re a focused group helping people. It’s debatable whether it should be done differently. I’m glad they’re helping people. I will note that what you just said applies to minority members, too. Quick example.
While doing mass-market, customer service (First World slavery), I ran an experiment treating everyone in a slightly-positive way with no differences in speech or action based on common events instead of treating them way better than they deserved like we normally did. I operated off a script rotating lines so it wasn’t obvious what I was doing. I did this with different customers in new environment for months. Rather than appreciation, I got more claims of racism, sexism, and ageism then than I ever did at that company. It was clear they didn’t know what equal treatment or meritocracy felt like. So many individuals or companies must have spoiled them that experiencing equality once made them “know” people they interacted with were racist, sexist, etc. There were irritated people among white males but they just demanded better service based on brand. This happened with coworkers in some environments, too, when I came in not being overly selfless. The whites and males just considered me slightly selfish trading favors where a number of non-whites or women suspected it was because they were (insert category here). They stopped thinking that after I started treating them better than other people did and doing more of the work myself. So, it was only “equal” when the white male was doing more of the work, giving more service in one-way relationships, etc.
I’d love to see a larger study done on that kind of thing to remove any personal or local biases that might have been going on. My current guess is that their beliefs about what racism or sexism are shifted their perceptions to mis-label the events. Unlike me, they clearly don’t go out of their way to look for more possibilities for such things. I can tell you they often did in the general case for other topics. They were smart or open-minded people. Enter politics or religion, the mind becomes more narrow showing people what they want to see. I spent most of my life in that same mental trap. It’s a constant fight to re-examine those beliefs looking at life experiences in different ways.
So, I’m skeptical when minority members tell me something was about their status because I’ve personally witnessed them miscategorizing so many situations. They did it by default actually any time they encountered provable equality or meritocracy. Truth told, though, most things do mix forms of politics and merit leaning toward politics. I saw them react to a lot of that, too. I’m still skeptical since those situations usually have more political biases going on than just race or gender. I can’t tell without being there or seeing some data eliminating variables what caused whatever they tell me.
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You got jokes lol. :) More like I’m collecting this data on many views from each group to test my hypotheses whereas many of my opponents are suppressing alternative views in data collection, in interpretation, and in enforcement. Actually, it seems to be default on all sides to do something like that. Any moderate listening closely to those that disagree looking for evidence of their points is an outlier. Something wrong with that at a fundamental level.
So, I then brought in my anecdotes to illustrate it given I never see them in opponents’ data or models. They might be wrong with their anecdotes right. I just think their model should include the dissent in their arguments along with reasons it does or doesn’t matter. The existence of dissent by non-haters in minority categories should be a real thing that’s considered.
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I think that the information asymmetry that you had with your anecdotes affected some of the reactions you got. For one, if someone considers your actions negative in some way, they are conditioned by society to assume that you were being prejudiced. If your workplace was one that had more of a negative connotation (perhaps a debt collection service or what have you) that goes double. That’s a reason for the percieved negativity that your white male colleagues didn’t even have to consider, and they concluded that you were just being moderately nice. Notice that you didn’t have to be specifically discriminatory, nor was it necessarily fair. It’s just one more negative thing that happens because prejudice does exist. I would imagine that you would not have so many negative reactions if you explained exactly what you were doing vis-a-vis the randomization of greetings and such. I think I would discount percieved discrimination if someone did that to me.
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Yes, it’s a ludicrous hissy fit. Especially considering that LLVM began at UIUC which, like many (most? all?) universities, has scholarships which are only awarded to members of underrepresented groups–so he’d have never joined the project in the first place if this were truly a principled stand and not just an excuse to whine about “the social injustice movement.” (I bet this guy thinks it’s really clever to spell Microsoft with a $, too.)
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The point is a bit bluntly made, but it’s for a reason. There’s a certain kind of internet posting style which uses techniques like changing “social justice movement” to “social injustice movement” to frame the author’s point of view. Once upon a time “Micro$oft” was common in this posting style.
For extreme cases of this, see RMS’ writing (Kindle=Swindle, etc).
(The problem with these techniques, IMO, is that they’re never as clever and convincing as the person writing them thinks that they are. Maybe they appeal to some people who already agree with that point of view, but they can turn off anyone else…)
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I think there is a difference here. “Microsoft” is not framing any point of view. “social justice movement”, on the other hand, is already framing certain point of view. I think “social injustice movement” is an acceptable alternative to “so-called social justice movement”, because prefixing “so-called” every time is inconvenient.
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Dear Lord: the link time optimizations are a scary prospect.
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Do you mean LTO in general, or something new in gcc 8.1?
My experience with LTO (only on microcontrollers) has been that it can be very hard figuring out the corresponding source in a debugger, so this announcement about better DWARF information is very welcome!
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I keep reading this, but I’ve only seen it once, thankfully - and I’ve been in my share of workplaces, having spent about half my career as a contractor. Am I a lucky freak, or is it just not actually that common?
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Well, for another anecdotal data point… In my 30 year career I’ve seen many “necessary nice people”, and several executives who were jerks, but I can’t think of any “necessary jerk” individual contributors. There were certainly some jerks, but they didn’t seem necessary.
They do enable good dramatic situations, though, so I can understand why they’re popular in literature. And for obvious reasons they’re overrepresented in real life stories of office harassment.
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What do you mean by “necessary nice person”?
Is it “A is the only person who knows how to do X?”, ie https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor
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What I’ve seen is people whose lack of social finesse has been papered over because “well programmers haha”
(I’ve had this advantage as well)
I have never seen another job position where being bad at humans is considered acceptable. I am, of course, all for giving people opportunities to improve, but the bar is set so much lower than basically any other job
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I think the people who truly encompass this personality type (or a combination of traits that make for this type of personality) typically find they’re war towards the top .. if they’re good at what they do. Those who are truly lacking empathy, that find their way further along on the sociopath/psychopathic scales, tend to via for positions at the top. They take large risks and, if they’re good at it, they jump in to fill positions the moment they can.
I agree, I have encountered few of these Necessary Jerks on my team in myself in my 15+ years in tech. There were one or two, but none that were really that bad or who I couldn’t find some common ground and get along with. There were more people who were incompetent, which is annoying, but so long as they’re nice and trying .. eh..everyone needs a job. There are people who are incompetent and refuse to learn and shit heads about it, and you wonder why the hell they still have a job – and you just gotta be as nice as you can (They are a lesson in patience).
From what I’ve heard, people with necessary jerks, are typically teams with just really shitty management. I think this post that was up a few months ago really encompasses that type of work environment:
https://startupsventurecapital.com/you-fired-your-top-talent-i-hope-youre-happy-cf57c41183dd
For the type of person I mentioned at the beginning of this comment, I recommend the book The Dictators Handbook. It’s pretty eye opening as far as what it really takes to grab and hold onto a position of power, like being a CEO. Spoiler alert, knowing anything useful about your business or technology, or even caring about your employees/staff, has very little to do with it.
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This isn’t different enough stack-wise from the Slack electron app to make me want to install it.
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The author, Cheng Zhao, works for GitHub on Electron and before that worked on node-webkit, which is now known as NW.js. The stack is Yue (cross-platform native UI library) and Yode (Node.js fork with GUI message loop), all of which he also wrote based on lessons learned from Electron.
I think that lumping it all into one bucket doesn’t acknowledge the progression they’ve been making with each new library and/or approach.
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I’m curious what the tradeoffs of Node vs JavaScriptCore for a JS engine in this kind of application are.
For platform-specific stuff like UI widgets, certainly agree that using anything that platform ships with is a plus. But from the point of view of developing a cross-platform framework, having a common lower layer like node.js means less platform- or language-environment-specific quirks to work around. What’s the case for not using it?
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End users don’t need to manually install node.js to use Wey, they get a packaged .app which bundles it. https://github.com/yue/wey/releases/tag/v0.1.0
The packaged app would be a bit smaller (node.js installer by itself is 15MB for macOS), I guess…
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projectgus
5 months ago
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Google starts blocking “uncertified” Android devices from logging in
I was curious what impact this might have on the microg open source Google framework reimplementation. But they don’t seem too bothered: https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_GmsCore/issues/510
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I believe this is a good step, at least until society someday figures out a more effective way to make “free” publishing sustainable.
However…
At the time of publication, this new type of threat data isn’t available in the public API for Safe Browsing that Google offers to third-party developers. However, Google might offer the list of websites that don’t comply with the Better Ads Standards to other web browsers at some point in the future.
Which websites end up on the blacklist is entirely at Google’s discression
Admittedly, Google have created the Coaliton For Better Ads so at least there’s a multi-party body for deciding what “good ads” look like in principle.
But surely there are ways this can go wrong in the future when the dominant browser vendor, the dominant ad provider, and the dominant arbiter of “bad” ad content are all the same company…
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Websites that don’t comply with the Better Ads Standards will be labeled as being a threat of this type […]
Google telling users my website is a threat to them unless I comply with Google’s ruleset for what makes an acceptable ad (e.g. “uses Google’s ad services”) can definitely go wrong in a number of ways.
At least most people should get less malware and see fewer annoying popups now.
It’s interesting that the current blacklists include Google ads & analytics, so long as they’re placed on otherwise unacceptable websites. Still, an ad company is choosing to block websites from displaying ads from competing ad services.
I’m expecting some lawsuits…
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Jie Qi and Bunnie Huang use audio transfer for programming microcontrollers in the paper electronics Chibitronics project
https://chibitronics.com/programming-chibi-chip/
Bunnie’s LCA2018 talk goes into how they decided this was the best option for beginners and kids to program MCUs, and some of the technical implementation: https://youtu.be/alssfVGrFhI
(Discussion of audio transfer starts about 27:20 but whole talk - covering a lot of things - is worthwhile.)
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Hiya Gus :-)
Yeah, I think the way they’re doing it has some hair on it, but overall it is maybe a good idea. I’d like it better if it used a more modern modulation technique. If it’d work just by holding the clip near a speaker instead of needing a little custom cable it’d be better for kids & iphone owners.
Kinda reminds me of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timex_Datalink#Wireless_data_transfer_mode
It’s kind of a pity IRDA didn’t really take off … would be perfect for this kind of thing.
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Fancy seeing you here, @nickzoic :)
I think the challenge is doing more complex modulation (and/or noise cancellation) without a lot of hardware resources (probably easier if it was MCU->PC rather than the other way around.)
That Timex trick is neat! I wonder how fast I can modulate the backlight of my laptop at, without noticing…
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law
7 months ago
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Burning Down the Castle (talk from ex-kernel developer on the kernel team's culture)
OK. Fork it. Build your own community/dev processes/culture around the way you feel is best, and let the market decide. Don’t do the public talk circuit and whinge about how Linus is a meanie.
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OK. Fork it. Build your own community/dev processes/culture around the way you feel is best, and let the market decide. Don’t do the public talk circuit and whinge about how Linus is a meanie.
I find this kind of response to criticism, to be generally counter productive. It is often simply being dismissive. I mean.. shouldn’t forking an entire community be the /last/ option, not the /first/ one?
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Build your own community/dev processes/culture around the way you feel is best, and let the market decide.
I won’t repeat trousers’ comment that forking is the last resort (which I agree on).
I will add that a community where someone can talk about problems openly is a healthy robust community.
Don’t do the public talk circuit
This talk was at linux.conf.au, which is a significant community open source conference. A bunch of kernel developers & maintainers come every year. Linus himself has come a few times. Standing up in front of your peers (or former peers) to explain problems you see is not “doing the public talk circuit”.
Linus is a meanie
One point made in the talk is how the “angry Linus” meme (particularly the way his abusive LKML outbursts are covered so widely) is a barrier to talking constructively about disfunction in the rest of the kernel developer/maintainership (which is what the majority of the talk was about).
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On the “not keeping your password list on a cloud” front, I use KeePassXC and Keepass2Android with SyncThing for automatic local syncing, and it’s been good. I keep a (password protected) key file which isn’t synced, and then sync the keepass database file via SyncThing.
There’s still the possibility of the database files getting out of sync if I don’t let my phone and my laptop sync for too long (I don’t do the “global” SyncThing syncing so they have to be on the same WiFi network). This has happened to me once or twice, but KeePass’s automatic merging feature has handled these cases fine.
I love syncthing. But I couldn’t find an iOS client so I had to look for something else. 🤷♂️
Ah, I didn’t know they didn’t do iOS. That’s a shame.