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    is this tech related though….. I mean great read, but.

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      An interesting question. It’s tagged “science,” but not tech. Is a tech tag implicit on everything posted to lobste.rs?

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        The author is nerd-famous for writing well about programming and Silicon Valley phenomena.

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          FWIW I would like to continue to see articles such as this, even if they do not include tech.

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          One article–the originating report, which is well-written and gives a lot of information–is more than enough coverage here. We don’t really need pile-on talking heads or navelgazing.

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            I really don’t like how you often try to speak for everyone here. I am not a part of your “we.”

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              I really don’t like how you often try to speak for everyone here. I am not a part of your “we.”

              I can definitely see how the grandparent post could be grating, but I didn’t read it as speaking for others. Just stating his opinion about what is best for the community (“we”).

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                I’d venture that it is a pretty well-established convention when writing and speaking to an audience to prefer the first-person to the second. I’ve had no end of confusion and troubles when people have conflated my use of “you (the general audience)” with “you (particular person I’m addressing)”.

                Sorry if that ruffles your feathers, but in my experience it’s the least unpalatable option.

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                  Why isn’t the least unpalatable option being direct (using “I” instead of “we”)? What you’re saying in the original comment is that you don’t want to see this kind of article posted here. (A reasonable opinion). You also think that the community at large would benefit from not having these articles posted. (Another reasonable opinion).

                  Those two statements come across very different from, “We don’t really need…”, which talks for the community instead of about the community.

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                    That’s where the phrase “I think that” comes in handy.

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                      That phrase is redundant whenever someone is talking about an opinion-based subject. Obviously that’s what you think; you’re saying it.

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                        I disagree. I think phrases like “I think …” or “In my opinion” are important delineations between something that is expressed as an opinion and something that is expressed as fact. I think it’s really important to know when someone is speaking about an opinion and when someone is speaking about facts. In my experience, facts often correspond to assumptions or context in conversations that are taken for granted as things that are true even if they aren’t.

                        (It’s not about what’s actually opinion or fact. It’s about what someone believes is opinion vs fact. If the language makes it easier to identify what a person believes, then communication becomes much easier in my own experience.)

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                      I suppose the line between writing conventions and dishonest rhetoric is very thin.

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                        People, as a rule of thumb, don’t want the unvarnished truth. They will, especially given the opportunity to do so anonymously (as is the case with our current flagging system), viciously attack anybody who points out their own failings, who questions whatever moral and cultural touchstones they hold dear, who talks repeatedly about something they don’t wish to hear, and so on and so forth.

                        What you consider “dishonest rhetoric” is something that is pretty useful when addressing problems, in forums or the workplace or wherever. If I have a problem, you may not be able to help and may not even give a shit. If we have a problem, there’s something that we can both work on and that we both have some stake in the resolution of.

                        Similarly, here, every time “I (angersock)” make a statement about how Lobsters should act, it’s easy to just see “okay okay angersock’s ranting whatever”. If it’s stated as “we (the Lobsters community subset that agrees with angersock)” it becomes both an acknowledgement that whatever is being pointed out may have interest beyond one user’s personal preference and an opportunity to discuss things for those not in the subset.

                        Plus, it’s just plain impolite to go on and on about “I this, I that, I the other thing”. One ends up sounding like a tinpot dictator or puffed-up jerk.

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                          It is only useful to you. Only you gain something from pulling the entire community into the problems you have with this post.

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                            He’s not all alone, I think.

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                            We definitely need more people using the “we need” form over the “I need” form. It shifts the discussion away from a conflict of interests to a conflict of beliefs and values. Or at least I believe so.

                            It is only useful to you. Only you gain something from pulling the entire community into the problems you have with this post.

                            Only because angersock has the interests of the community on his mind.

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                      I’m not sure I get your point even after you elaborated it. If you’re not interested in further discussion, why did you even post a comment, which also can be interpreted as “pile-on talking”? If you find this article boring, why does that make it inappropriate for lobste.rs?

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                        If you’re not interested in further discussion, why did you even post a comment, which also can be interpreted as “pile-on talking”

                        That’s referring to other articles saying the same thing or related things–our own commentary (mine here being somewhat meta in nature) is a different kettle of fish. :)

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                          Blogposts can contain comments about other blogposts too. I see neither a difference nor a problem. Arguably this submission isn’t particularly interesting or contains new points, but saying “we don’t need it” is speaking for other people (as /u/Gracana pointed out) and something the voting system is supposed to answer.

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                            The voting system is prey to all of the normal issues of democracy and mob rule, and unless people are willing to go out and occasionally make posts articulating policy alternatives and standards (even at the risk of downvotes and argument) one cannot expect any better outcome than “ooh shiny, upvote–oooh mean, flag–oh thing i don’t understand, ignore or random”. This has been borne out time and time again on other aggregators.

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                        The part of this post that seems to add something is the degree to which he shifts from discussing the specific allegation and rants about the industry as a whole and the way it protects bad people all the way up the food chain.

                        Agree or disagree, this does feel like it is adding on to the original report rather than repeating it. Naturally, to make such a rant stand alone, he has to introduce the subjet, which is repetitive at this moment when it is dominating the social media discourse.

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                          Why not?

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                            Assuming that you’re asking this in good faith, here are the basic problems I have:

                            • The original article was long and detailed problems that many of us may have and may yet experience in our work. For people who want to manage, it is an informative read on things not to do to reports. For employees, it is a solid example to point to if you start getting gaslit or made to feel uncomfortable. For business owners, it shows some interesting ways that HR can be used and how bad middle-management strife can ruin a culture. There’s a lot to be learned.
                            • In direct contrast, this sort of shallow talking point (summed up as “stop buying things from bad people, even though the SV culture has normalized their behavior. staaaaahp.”) isn’t going to really change our daily practices in any meaningful way beyond the villain of the week.
                            • Even the original article is basically hearsay until corroborated and sourced. If we have multiple submissions covering the same thing, it creates additional noise to whatever weak signal was already present. In an age where everybody is complaining about fake news, maybe we shouldn’t be part of the problem.
                            • Duplicate submissions on the same fragment discussion across multiple threads, increase cognitive load for users and mods (“Is this covering the same points? I’ll have to read it and find out ughhh”), and displace other stories that could be more useful to everyone else (not a huge problem here right now, but if you look at the constant churn of things on other sites where people submit the same news stories it most emphatically becomes so.)
                            • News submissions are the mindkiller, because their core value is in novelty (“Have you heard about <X>?!”) instead of quality, longevity, or actionability. Seldom, seldom, will news submissions either be downvoted (because they tickle the “oh hey nifty we should share” part of the nerd brain) or something that impacts our daily lives as practitioners (as an example here, because few if any of us work at Uber, fewer still in upper management, and generally it devolves into me-too me-too signalling “oh this is awful upvote for solidarity).

                            I’ve got various other reasons, but those are probably enough for you to get the gist.

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                              In direct contrast, this sort of shallow talking point (summed up as “stop buying things from bad people, even though the SV culture has normalized their behavior. staaaaahp.”) isn’t going to really change our daily practices in any meaningful way beyond the villain of the week.

                              What you’re trying to say here is “No ethical consumption under capitalism”.

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                                Assuming that I parse you correctly as having this viewpoint, and further assuming that I’ll agree with it for discussions sake–my complaint becomes pretty obvious: there is no real way to opt out of capitalism in any meaningful way for the vast majority of us.

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                                  Can you explain that further? Why can’t you opt out of capitalism? Capitalism doesn’t force people to engage with it just by virtue of the fact that it exists; you’re just usually better off if you do. You can feel free to join a commune or go live in the woods or something; your biggest barrier will be that the government might still expect money from you. If your answer is “because I want a high standard of living”, then yes, that’s why everyone else chooses to interact with capital markets as well.

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                                    Capitalism is implemented as a universal/global system and is defended and further imposed by the capitalists themselves. At this point, capital controls (ostensibly) the whole world. Any state that attempts to opt out of capitalism also receives stiff retaliation and punishment, typically enforced by the United States.

                                    When kept under some form of social/democratic control, capital markets can be harnessed to better the lives of society at large. However, that benefit is only through collective intervention and not a property of capitalism itself.

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                                      Any state that attempts to opt out of capitalism also receives stiff retaliation and punishment,

                                      It’s not really critical to my argument, but I’d like to point out that the language you’re using has connotations of voluntary withdrawal, despite the fact that a state “opting out of capitalism” involves forcibly preventing all of its subjects from freely engaging in market interactions. It’s also usually synonymous with drastically lowered quality of life, famine, etc., so there’s a very obvious humanitarian case for preventing states from “opting out” of the free market.

                                      However, what I asked about wasn’t states, but individuals. Why can’t you, as an individual, opt out of capitalism? I’m willing to grant that government tax and bureaucratic requirements make it practically challenging, but that’s not capitalism’s fault.

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                                I think that the OP’s comments linking Trumpism and Uberism are original and deserve discussion.

                                Since Paul Graham’s mid-2000s essays Made Startups Great Again and convinced a bunch of well-intended, smart, middle-class nerds to pile into business programming not knowing that that’s what they were doing, we’ve had a win-at-any-ethical-cost business culture (Uberism) that has expanded beyond tech and taken over the whole corporate world. And, as that movement grows, we also see a win-at-any-ethical-cost political movement with no coherent ideology beyond “When you’re a star, you can do anything.”

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                                  What is there to discuss in that novel point? That incentives don’t always lead to optimal results?

                                  Is that relevant to lobste.rs?

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                            Imagine the actual interface to this problem being a person calling out “left”, “up”, “left”, etc. To run tortoise-and-hare in your head on this input, you’d have to remember what they’d called out, to an unbounded span backwards. I don’t know about ES6 iterators, but the solution seems to amount to cloning the person calling out the directions.

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                              You are absolutely correct about that, and it was no accident. I was trying to show that the Carpenter was trying to force-fit cycle-detection onto this problem, mostly because Plissken had coached him that Thing liked to test whether Candidates knew how to solve it.

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                                I see! I wondered at the time if following your blog more would have filled in some context. (I’m on a bit of an internet diet lately… relatively at least.)

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                                Wow, thanks, that’s a good thread.

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                                  Ah, the proggit days of yore…

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                                OBVIOUSLY the whole point is to read it online, for free. But if you absolutely, positively MUST buy a copy, 1. Thanks, and 2. here’s a lobste.rs-specific coupon code to get it for ten bucks off: “lobste.rs” (no quotes). But please, do not feel obligated to buy a copy. read it online, read the original blog posts, and if you feel you have to do something nice, write your own blog post about how helpful combinators are.

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                                  Thanks for doing this! I think its really awesome when authors also put their content out there like this. I did buy a copy as well, but not because I felt obligated – the ease of reading in epub format on my iPad is well worth the money. Thanks again!