1. 3

    A long, long time ago, I had a boss who would say “This Linux thing will never catch on because no one knows how to pronounce it. LIE-nux, LEE-nooks… DEEB-ian, deb-EE-an… it’s doomed.”

    He may have been right for the desktop… (-:

    1. 1

      I consistently say “Mac Oh-Es Ex” but apparently the consensus is “Mac Oh-Es Ten”?

      1. 2

        “Tencode Ecks Beta Six”

        1. 1

          I say it Os-Es-Ex, and no has corrected me.

          1. 2

            If you walk around Apple HQ saying “oss ecks” (with the “oss” being the same sound as in “hoss” or “cross”), people get really mad at you. I’ve also been saying “eye oss” for so long I’ve forgotten it was initially a joke, and have probably weirded out a few coworkers after I switched jobs.

            1. 3

              Thank goodness they dropped it and it is plain old macOS now ;-)

          2. 1

            Not just consensus, that’s how Apple employees pronounced it in keynotes.

            Now, I know that’s basically the “GIF argument”, but “OS Ten comes after OS Nine” actually makes sense, unlike “Jraphics Interchange Format” :)

            (and now it’s pronounced mac-O-S anyway)

        1. 2

          I recently found that IPv6 HTTP traffic was unable to flow to my OpenBSD bytemark VPS (on a /56 netmask) unless I allow ICMP6 through the packet filter.

          Perhaps someone knows why that might be?

          FWIW, the bytemark docs are here: https://docs.bytemark.co.uk/article/finding-your-ipv6-address/

          1. 5

            And just as I posted this, I received an email from Bytemark saying that they’d updated their docs in light of my support request. The docs now say:

            The role of ICMP has changed a little for IPv6. If your firewall has a default policy of deny then you may struggle to get traffic to or from your server without allowing traffic for certain ICMPv6 types. Types 1 – destination unreachable, 2 – Packet too big, 3 – Time exceeded and 4 – Parameter problem, for reporting errors to other devices. Types 128 – echo request, 129 – echo reply, for testing connectivity. Types 133 – Router Solicitation, 134 – Router Advertisement, 135 – Neighbor Solicitation, 136 – Neighbor Advertisement, for neighbour discovery. More information can be found at Wikipedia.

            So if you are having routing/visibility problems with IPv6, then ICMP might be your problem!

            Good show Bytemark.

            1. 2
            2. 5

              ICMP6 takes the role of ARP (neighbor discovery). If you block it, you’ve just removed the ability for any other v6 nodes on the local network from being able to see you.

              1. 1

                I’ve done some experimenting with determining the maximum MTU in IPv6 for an UDP application and if your host doesn’t process ICMPv6 Packet Too Big messages you’ll never be able to learn how to reach the other side in cases where your packets are too big (since v6 routers don’t fragment). These packets are effectively black holed.

              1. 2

                I kinda expected the font from @fcambus would support Latin Extended-A Unicode page (incl. Polish diacritics) out of the box. And now I’m a bit disappointed… :)

                1. 1

                  Another short term goal is to add support for Central European languages, with Polish being the immediate priority.

                  In case you didn’t read that far ;^)

                  1. 1

                    Mind the :) :)

                  1. 8

                    Given that most popular email clients these days are awful and can’t handle basic tasks like “sending email” properly

                    I agree with the sentiment in general, but once you’re in the position where everybody else does it wrong and you’re the last person on the planet that does it right, then maybe it’s time to acknowledge that the times have changed and that the old way has been replaced by the new way and that maybe it is you who is wrong and not everybody else.

                    And I’m saying this as a huge fan of plain-text only email, message threading and inline quotes using nested > to define the quote level.

                    It’s just that I acknowledge that I have become a fossil as the times have changed.

                    1. 3

                      once you’re in the position where everybody else does it wrong and you’re the last person on the planet that does it right

                      Thankfully we haven’t reached this position for email usage on technical projects. Operating systems, browsers, and databases still use developer mailing lists, and system programmers know how to format emails properly for the benefit of precise line-oriented tools.

                      I acknowledge that I have become a fossil as the times have changed

                      If the technology and processes you prefer have intrinsic merit, then why regretfully and silently abandon them? I’m not saying we should refuse to cooperate on interesting new projects simply because they use slightly worse development processes. But we should let people know about the existence of other tools and ways to collaborate, and explain the pros and cons.

                      1. 2

                        If the technology and processes you prefer have intrinsic merit, then why regretfully and silently abandon them?

                        Because when I didn’t, people were complaining about my quoting style, not understanding which part of the message was mine and which wasn’t and complaining that me stripping off all the useless bottom quote caused them to lose context.

                        This was a fight it didn’t feel worth fighting.

                        I can still use my old usenet quoting habits when talking to other old people on mailing lists (which is another technology on the way out it seems), but I wouldn’t say that the other platforms and quoting styles the majority of internet users use these days are wrong.

                        After all, if the maiority uses them, it might as well be the thing that finally helped the “other” people to get online to do their work, so it might very well be time for our “antiquated” ways to die off.

                      2. 1

                        I’d like to try to convince you that it’s _good* that plain text email is no longer the norm.

                        First, let’s dispense with a false dichotomy: I’m not a fan of HTML emails that are heavy on layout tables and (especially) images with no text equivalents. Given my passion for accessibility (see my profile), that should come as no surprise.

                        But HTML emails are good for one thing: providing hyperlinks without exposing URLs to people. As much as good web developers aim for elegant URLs, the fact remains that URLs are for machines, not people. A hyperlink with descriptive text, where the URL is available if and only if the reader really wants it, is more humane.

                        For longer emails, HTML is also good for conveying the structure of the text, e.g. headingsg and lists.

                        Granted, Markdown could accomplish the same things. But HTML email actually took off. Of course, you could hack together a system that would let you compose an email in Markdown and send it in both plain text and HTML. For folks like us that don’t prefer WYSIWYG editors, that might be the best of all worlds.

                        1. 2

                          But HTML emails are good for one thing: providing hyperlinks without exposing URLs to people.

                          That doesn’t come without a huge cost. People don’t realize that they need to know the underlying URL and don’t care to pay attention to it. That leads to people going places they didn’t expect or getting phished and the like.

                          Those same people probably wouldn’t notice the difference between login.youremail.com and login.yourema.il.com either, though. So I’m not saying the URL is the solution but at least, putting it in front of you, gives you a chance.

                          1. 2

                            As much as good web developers aim for elegant URLs, the fact remains that URLs are for machines, not people.

                            I’m not sure about this… at least the whole point of DNS is to allow humans to understand URLs. Unreadable URLs seem to be a relatively recent development in the war against users.

                            1. 2

                              Not only do I completely agree with you but you are also absolutely right about that.

                              Excerpt from section 4.5 of the RFC3986 - Uniform Resource Identifier (URI): Generic Syntax:

                              Such references are primarily intended for human interpretation
                              rather than for machines, with the assumption that context-based
                              heuristics are sufficient to complete the URI [...]
                              

                              BTW, the above URL is a perfect example of how one should look like.

                            2. 1

                              Personally, I hate HTML in email - I don’t think it belongs there. Mainly, for the very reasons you had just mentioned.

                              Let’s take phishing, for example - and spear phishing in particular. At an institution where I work, people - especially those at the top - are being targeted. And it’s no longer click here-type of emails - institutional HTML layouts are being used to a great effect to collect people’s personal data (passwords, mainly). With the whole abstraction people cannot distinguish whether an email, or even a particular link, is genuine.

                              When it comes it the structure itself, all of that can be achieved with plain text email - the conventions used predate Markdown, BTW, and are just as readable as they were several decades ago.

                              1. 1

                                are these conventions well-defined? is there some document which describes conventions for stuff like delimiting sections of plain text emails?

                                1. 1

                                  are these conventions well-defined? is there some page which describes conventions for stuff like delimiting sections of plain text emails?

                              2. 1

                                It’s just that I acknowledge that I have become a fossil as the times have changed.

                                Well, there are just too many of us fossils to acknowledge this just yet.

                                1. 3

                                  You should’ve checked before posting this very example - it has been fixed a month ago :^)

                                  1. 4

                                    Thanks, that’s great news! I don’t currently have access to an OpenBSD system, to be honest. Still, that means two and a half years to comply with POSIX over a one-character fix, so again I feel compliance is not always a priority.

                                    1. 6

                                      It is not always a priority. Why should posix compliance take precedence over everything else? Each such question is generally being dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

                                      Implementing whatever posix comes up with is not a stated goal of the OpenBSD project.

                                      And adding whatever OpenBSD invents is obviously not a stated goal of posix either. As one example, see arc4random(3).

                                      1. 9

                                        Implementing whatever posix comes up with is not a stated goal of the OpenBSD project.

                                        goals.html gets confusingly close to stating just that though:

                                        Track and implement standards (ANSI, POSIX, parts of X/Open, etc.)

                                        http://www.openbsd.org/goals.html

                                        1. 4

                                          Yes, posix compliance is a goal. But that does not mean it’s at the highest priority of all the things the project does.

                                          1. 2

                                            We all agree it’s not the highest priority, and probably OpenBSD would not be what it is if it were. Thanks for contributing to such a fine project.

                                1. 3

                                  Until you start using Pillar and templates, it’ll remain an average dot files repository, I’m afraid.

                                  Don’t get me wrong, I like Salt and use it daily but, without Pillar and templates, your repository is just another dotfiles repository*, albeit using Salt states :^)

                                  * by that, I mean static and not very reusable

                                  1. 1

                                    Which I completely understand and I am okay with. The idea was to explore the possibilities and see if others were doing something similar.

                                  1. 1

                                    Even though there’s no ‘ops’ or ‘sysadmin’ tags, this isn’t entirely off-topic for Lobsters.

                                    I’m sure that at least some will find this info useful - those who have to manage Apple kit or simply macOS (and MS Office) users who like to automate everything.

                                    1. 4

                                      I know it’s easy to be in a constant state of rage at Uber, and this news makes it extremely easy to pile on. An innocent person died here, at the fault of a team of engineers attempting to something incredibly difficult. I know for sure that this will bring up (and has already, I’m sure) talking head discussions on ethics of AI, who will be charged (why/why not), and tons more litigation and law suits. But, let’s not forget to sympathize with the engineering team here, as well. This has to be the worst feeling ever, and it could have happened to any of us—it had to happen to someone.

                                      My condolences to the innocent pedestrian’s family and friends. Also, my condolences to the team who will carry this loss on their sleeve for the rest of their lives.

                                      1. 2

                                        It seems like you haven’t read the article very carefully.

                                        1. You completely forgot to mention the operator behind the wheel - If anyone, that person will most likely be charged and, regardless of the verdict, carry it for the rest of their life.

                                        2. From https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Exclusive-Tempe-police-chief-says-early-probe-12765481.php:

                                        … it’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway, …

                                        … I suspect preliminarily it appears that the Uber would likely not be at fault in this accident, either, …

                                        Sylvia Moir, police chief in Tempe, Arizona

                                        1. 9

                                          Two things.

                                          First, the operator is the one person that can hardly be blamed. The idea that a car can drive itself and someone will step in when something goes wrong is fundamentally flawed. Engineers have known about the fact that this doesn’t work for many decades. Understanding what happens at the point of handoff and how long it takes is a fundamental part of aircraft safety and CRM. It takes humans time to asses a situation and step in to take control.

                                          Second, police often blame victims in car crashes. That’s in part why so few ever get prosecuted and the situation doesn’t change. I’ll believe it when Uber releases video of what happened.

                                          1. 1
                                            1. You completely forgot to mention the operator behind the wheel - If anyone, that person will most likely be charged and, regardless of the verdict, carry it for the rest of their life.

                                            Presumably the operator is part of the engineering team, no? I’m not a District Attorney, or an attorney, or even a law enforcement officer. Therefore, I’m unable to comment on whether or not the operator will be charged, if it makes sense to charge this person, or if we’ll find that Uber put on the road a car that was not street legal, which contributed to it.

                                            Please don’t assume I didn’t read carefully. I tried to choose my words carefully in order to not speculate on the details of an on-going investigation.

                                            1. … it’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway, …

                                            Exactly. This makes the investigation all that more important. Maybe no one will be charged because investigators will rule it an accident based purely on the fact that, autonomous or not, it was unavoidable based on the pedestrian’s actions.

                                            1. 1

                                              I think your second point raises an interesting issue. It may have been difficult for a human driver to see this person, but from the information given and all the pictures I’ve seen, it shouldn’t have been difficult for an autonomous driver to see them using different sensors (like depth or IR).

                                              It shouldn’t have been speeding and it should have slowed down further or changed lanes when it saw that it was coming up on a pedestrian in the median.

                                              This is the second incident I know of where an autonomous car has got into trouble, in part, by mimicking stupid human behavior. We have the technology to avoid things like this, and the standard for computer drivers need to be significantly higher than the standard for humans. The NTSB needs to get these things off the road until they’re properly tested.

                                            2. 1

                                              The fault is actually in the driver, who was instructed to be alert and keep both hands at the wheel at all times. Uber should not have released this obviously and they should get shit for it but I think until there’s nobody behind the wheel the responsibility of any accident falls on the driver, just as it does with planes presently.

                                              1. 7

                                                The fault lies with the people that put the driver there. It’s beyond comprehension that they would rely on a safety driver. We’ve known for decades that humans cannot effectively monitor a system that’s mostly reliable. The fact that this cannot be done goes back to Kibler (1965), was already understood by Bainbridge (1983), and by Molly & Parasuraman (1995) there was extensive research digging deep into why people are unable to do this and how to design environments where they can.

                                                It is irresponsible of Uber/Waymo/GM and all of the manufacturers to put people in an impossible situation.

                                                1. 1

                                                  Apparently according to reports it required intervention roughly every mile. I do agree there should be laws against putting such a weak system on the road. It should be able to drive unassisted at least as well as a human driver before we put humans behind the wheel, but after that point the driver should be culpable for failing to pay attention. Especially if the driver were for example watching a feature length film in the drivers seat.

                                                  1. 2

                                                    If a company knowingly puts you in an impossible situation where you cannot possibly do a task safely without injuring yourself or others they are generally liable, not you. Unless for example, you’re a professional engineer in which case you have a certain responsibility to inform yourself and say no. Those poor drivers don’t know the research behind visual attention, automation, and fatigue. It feels very unfair to prosecute them for doing their jobs, that they have been told they can do, to the best of their abilities, when they’ve been set up for failure.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      I completely agree with what you said here.

                                                      Now, in retrospect, don’t you think that without such an antropomophic language selling “intellingense” and “learning” of machines, Uber (and Google, and Tesla) would have had an harder time to put such cars on the road?

                                                      This language is dangerous for each person who do not understand the math and inner working of them: they can be manipulated too easily.

                                                2. 1

                                                  … it’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway, …

                                                  It sounds plausible that autonomous or not, this may have happened. I don’t want to get into an argument over an investigation that I don’t have any insight into – I’d only be able to speculate, as would you.

                                                1. 5

                                                  Is there any work going on that would allow one to upgrade OpenBSD without booting into the special upgrade kernel? Something more or less like freebsd-update(8)? Let’s call this in-situ upgrade.

                                                  The problem is that IaaS providers like AWS really expect you to run images, they don’t make it easy to boot some other kernel, and even if you hack your way through there’s no emulated serial console to run the upgrade process, unless you go full auto.

                                                  I really want to run OpenBSD instead of FreeBSD on AWS (and everywhere else), but this thing is holding me back.

                                                  1. 3

                                                    Apart from automating the whole procedure, this is the closest thing you can do.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      Huh, I was not aware of these instructions. Thanks!

                                                  1. 2

                                                    Well, I’m not sure it is all that black and white. I haven’t done much searching but it doesn’t seem like Patrick actively worked on his fork being included as XChat’s replacement. Sure, he reported a bug in Fedora but it doesn’t seem like followed-up on it.

                                                    Also, despite the fact that XChat isn’t being actively developed, the original author doesn’t want it to die and to give the domain name up - he renewed it.

                                                    … Just sayin’.

                                                    1. 4

                                                      How about not using spaces in filenames in the first place?

                                                      1. 6

                                                        I get this on Unix, where the pissweak tooling is a disaster, but as a user, I own the file name. If I can’t use every character I want to, that’s a total fail on the part of the platform.

                                                        1. 5

                                                          I agree that you own the filename and should be able to use any characters you want, but there has to be some trade off regarding what filenames you can use in a comfortable manner and which require some form of escaping/quoting.

                                                          Another weird character would be the tilde (~). Technically a valid character in a filename, but whenever I see one I begin to fear that I might delete or mess with my home folder.

                                                          1. 5

                                                            The tilde is a perfectly fine character to use in a filename, it’s just the shell that does the expansion to your home directory if you give “~ “ (or “ ~ /” at the start of a path). My preferred editor marks the backup file with “~” (at the end of the filename).

                                                            Edit: ~ is a “special” Markdown character. No comment on that.

                                                            1. 2

                                                              I mean, I don’t use spaces, or tildes, or dollar signs (or colons, for HFS+) in any files that I create or expect to manipulate on the command line, but that doesn’t mean it’s OK. I want the compromises that my computer and I make to live with one another to be largely the province of the computer.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                You can say that about other characters, too - *, ;, ?, etc. not just ~.

                                                                If in doubt, quote or escape :^)

                                                              2. 2

                                                                Unlike on other operating systems (well, file systems to be precise), you actually can use any character - even newline or NULL if you so wish. The problem is that you also have to use something as a separator - it so happens that a blank is a natural way to split words apart :^)

                                                                So yes, you have to escape or quote blanks and other characters which are extra special ;^)

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  Obviously not Null :^P - I was thinking of Null as used by find ... -print0 and xargs -0. I should probably get some sleep ;^)

                                                              3. 1

                                                                Or just use spaces and escape them? It’s not hard, and escaping occurs literally everywhere strings are used.

                                                                zsh tab completion auto-escapes. GUI programs don’t need to worry about it. I have plenty of filenames with spaces in them, and they don’t cause problems for me.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                There is very little difficult with spaces in filenames. Learn to quote. Learn to escape. Then everything is very easy.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  It seems like you either didn’t read the linked post or didn’t understand it.

                                                                  The issue there was with make not being able to handle spaces in file names - neither quoted nor escaped.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    In that case:

                                                                    1. The title is incorrect.

                                                                    2. Still nothing difficult.

                                                                      make ‘hello world’ g++ “hello world.cpp” -o “hello world”

                                                                    With a Makefile:

                                                                    hello\ world: hello\ world.cpp
                                                                            echo match
                                                                            $(CXX) $(CXXFLAGS) "$^" -o "$@"
                                                                    

                                                                    Maybe the OP was making a joke about using UTF8 NBSP and I just didn’t get it.

                                                                1. 6

                                                                  Somebody is lying, I wonder who?

                                                                  https://www.trustico.co.nz/news/2018/symantec-revocation/certificate-replacement.php

                                                                  Further, Jeremy Rowley of DigiCert sent an e-mail to us requesting the following :

                                                                  “Can you please send a listing of the certificate serial numbers along with their private keys? Once we get that list, we’ll confirm the private key and revoke the certs as requested. Thanks!”

                                                                  Trustico® followed the requests of DigiCert by initially recovering Private Keys from cold storage and subsequently e-mailing the associated order number and Private Keys to DigiCert in a ZIP file. The file did not contain any other type of data.

                                                                  Trustico® allows customers to generate a Certificate Signing Request and Private Key during the ordering process. These Private Keys are stored in cold storage, for the purpose of revocation.

                                                                  By Djikstra’s Whiskers, this all gets weirder and stupider the more I read.

                                                                  1. 3

                                                                    Looks like a long email thread has some more info.

                                                                    What appears to be a reasonable summary, from one of the emails in the thread:

                                                                    From what I’ve read, it appears the situation here is that Trustico wanted to revoke all their customer certs from Digicert so they could do a mass migration to another CA (which is not a proper reason to revoke). When asked for proof by Digicert that the certificates were compromised and needed to be revoked, Trustico sent Digicert 23,000(!) private keys that they had stored due to the fact that they were generated by their web-based system in order to effectively make them compromised.

                                                                    1. 3

                                                                      DigiCert is the only CA I know that hasn’t fucked up badly and has a good process in place.

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        Does anyone have the above-linked trustico link cached? Firefox is rejecting its SSL/TLS cert for me.

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          I used a website to take an image capture of it: https://imgur.com/a/wmiYA

                                                                          1. 1

                                                                            It’s Dijkstra’s Whiskers :^)

                                                                          1. 3

                                                                            Not having their five pairs of legs properly represented is one thing, but always being shown as a dead lobster is something else entirely!

                                                                            I’d like the lobster to be very much alive, please!

                                                                            1. 1

                                                                              But then you have to pick if it should be grey, brown, blue, yellow, green or probably even other colours!

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                Human emoji have different colors now, why not lobsters? #dontboilmebro

                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                  #zoidberg

                                                                            1. 2

                                                                              I’ve been using FreeDNS - a fork of XName - for the past ~15 years.

                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                This looks horrendously unreadable.

                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                  It’s actually interactive. You can click a button like ‘m’ (or hit m on the keyboard) and see shortcuts available when you’re composing a new message. If you are actually using mutt this makes more sense than a huge list of modes & hotkeys in groupings.

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    Aha, that explains it. I was viewing the page via my iPhone.

                                                                                  2. 1

                                                                                    I agree - different colours could have been chosen.

                                                                                  1. 5

                                                                                    “Lauren Ipsum” was pretty good: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lauren-Ipsum-Carlos-Bueno/dp/1461178185

                                                                                    Sort of Alice in Wonderland for computing.

                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                      I bought it from no starch press in their recent sale - arrived on Friday :^)

                                                                                      I’d add Electronics for Kids to the list.

                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                      I’ve had a gapps less cyanogenmod set up on myold nexus for over 1½ years (and am waiting for a stable ROM for my current device), and it’s interesting to see that people pretty much eventually end up with the same solutions. I’d just add that if you’re euthusiastic about free software, one should use IceWeasel and if one wants a good FOSS twitter/mastodon experience, I can only recommend Twidere.

                                                                                      Also, why use AnySoft if you can use the AOSP one. I’m currently struggling with the counter-intuitive nature of AnySoft, but can’t find a AOSP .apk :(

                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                        IceWeasel? You mean the rebranded Firefox for Debian of yesteryear? It no longer exists.

                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                          It still does on Parabola.

                                                                                          1. 2

                                                                                            @zge most likely meant IceCat - IceWeasel’s new name. IceCatMobile to be precise.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              Yeah, my bad. I always mix those two up.